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MileHigh

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georgie48

<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>

Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.

It's not true that a virus cannot remain in the human body. A typical remaining virus is Herpes Zoster (Varicella). Most people know it from Chickenpox.

After the primary infection the Varicella remains latent in cells of the sensory nerves. Reactivation of Varicella (e.g. due to stress or weakened immune system) results in a syndrome of Herpes Zoster, like Shingles - [en.Wikipedia.org] , [en.Wikipedia.org] .

<<< Here's what the studies don't yet show. They haven't looked at whether the vaccine prevents someone from carrying COVID-19 and spreading it to others. It's possible that someone could get the vaccine but could still be an asymptomatic carrier. They may not show symptoms, but they have the virus in their nasal passageway so that if they're speaking, breathing, sneezing and so on, they can still transmit it to others.

This is the main reason why we can't stop wearing masks right after we get the vaccine. The vaccine will protect you from getting ill and then ending up hospitalized. But it's possible that you could still carry the virus and be contagious to others. So those who get the vaccine should still be wearing masks and practicing physical distancing. >>>

Certainly extensive research has to be done into the Corona virus and it's proper to say we don't know a lot of things. And it's also proper to say we have an extensive knowledge base of viruses in general.

I am wondering if they asked for volunteers to get exposed to the virus after they had their two shots to see if they would get sick and be carriers of the virus. It could be easily argued that that's an unethical clinical test to do, but it would answer a lot of important questions. However, over the years they have probably done thousands of these types of tests with animals. You wonder what that data says.

If it just has to be a thought experiment then my money is on people with immunity eliminating the virus in their systems in short order and not being potentially infectious to other people. And if they were exposed to the virus and it got into their body through a mucous membrane then antibodies would kill it in short order. That's what common sense is telling me.

Should we err on the side of caution and still wear masks after we have immunity? Perhaps so, but there has to be some kind of process to bring that to a close also. Say for example, after a certain percentage of the population has immunity then the recommendation to wear masks should be dropped. Human nature being what it is, I think a lot of people will stop wearing their masks once they have immunity.

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Irix

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MileHigh

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georgie48

<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>

Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.

It's not true that a virus cannot remain in the human body. A typical remaining virus his Herpes Zoster (Varicella). Most people know it from Chickenpox.

After the primary infection the Varicella remains latent in cells of the sensory nerves. Reactivation of Varicella (e.g. due to stress or weakened immune system) results in a syndrome of Herpes Zoster, like Shingles - [en.Wikipedia.org] , [en.Wikipedia.org] .

Good point. Same with herpes simplex virus (HSV-1 and HSV-2).

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Irix

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MileHigh

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georgie48

<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>

Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.

It's not true that a virus cannot remain in the human body. A typical remaining virus his Herpes Zoster (Varicella). Most people know it from Chickenpox.

After the primary infection the Varicella remains latent in cells of the sensory nerves. Reactivation of Varicella (e.g. due to stress or weakened immune system) results in a syndrome of Herpes Zoster, like Shingles - [en.Wikipedia.org] , [en.Wikipedia.org] .

You are correct and the spirit of Georgie48's comment also has merit. I looked up the issue of viruses and the battle between the human body and viruses is a complicated thing with multiple actors. So yes, a virus can exist in the body at a very low level and then come back and exploit the situation when the immune system becomes compromised for whatever reason.

I actually watched a few informational videos about how viruses and the immune system work by Dr. John Campbell at the beginning of last year and realized how much I had forgotten from his presentations. There is a lot more to the immune response than just antibodies and he described a whole series of processes in detail.

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georgie48

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MileHigh

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georgie48

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MileHigh

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Koen

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MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

[www.cdc.gov]

Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.

Your first question:

You must have read that covid-19 is a corona type virus. The influenza virus is not. You and I walk on the street and bounce into eachother. Possible outcome could be that we both say sorry and continue our own way. Now, again we both walk on the street, but this time I have surrounded my body with sharp spikes. We bounce into eachother. Result is that your body is full with holes and blood seeps out everywhere. Outcome ... you end up in hospital and I just walk on to my next victim.
The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. Our bodies have to make antibodies to tackle a virus. They kill the viruses and you're happy again for a while. The body can "store" an access of antibodies for some time (an then you are immune). The making of antibodies to tackle a corona type virus appears to be more complex and those antibodies differ from those used to tackle "smooth" viruses. Possibly the former type antibodies are less stable and can not hold on in your body as long as the latter type antibodies. In other words immunity length can be (considerably) different. Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. The final 20 viruses may be dead after three months and you are immune (for how long?).
Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. It, unfortunately, takes time to get a good picture on this. In any way, being immune for three months is still far better than not being immune because one refuses vaccination.

Your second question:

In the Mogave desert in Californië you may run into a scorpion that kills you with one sting in no time. In that same desert there live very small animals which are totally immune for a sting of that same scorpion! They even eat them. How come? The poison from the scorpion that enters our body may be (don't take the figure literally) 1 microgram per liter of your blood. That same 1 microgram also enters the blood of that tiny animal (I will look up what name that animal has). The amount of blood is 5% of what we have in our body. Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive.
Same with viruses. A (for us deadly) virus that lives in the body of a bat has no effect on the well being of that bat (I want to add that our body hosts thousands of viruses that have no ill-making let alone killing effect on us). The bat also hosts many different viruses that have no effect on the bat. Many of the bat's viruses are very different from our own viruses and very much is not yet known about how bat virusses come about in the body of that bat and so it's very difficult to even know/understand their impact on us humans. There is a lot of research going on about this, but a problem is that one thing "we" have learned is that because we know so little, we can't just use humans as experimental ginnypigs. So ... we use animals to study. And that creates another uncertaincy. I mentioned the case of the scorpion. A human body is not the body of a desert mouse?
Now, take the common cold virus, we know soooo much about it already for sooo long a time, but still there is no simple medication that can prevent us from getting the cold at all !?!?! It can't be that difficult, right? Such a medication could make the farmacy industry even more rich, but ....
Science is not like eating a tasty cake, it is (or can be in complex cases) hard and very patient labour. Believe me, I know.

Truly, I feel for you, because scientists are not always the people who can explain their results in words that can be understood by ordinary people. Among those ordinary people are a group named journalists/reporters. Too often they pretend to understand what scientists try to tell, but my oh my, I've read too many dreadful articles which basically proof that they are just also ... ordinary people.

Okay, so you have constructed some narratives to explain your reasoning. I am a lay person when it comes to this stuff and you are a lay person also, right?

First question:

<<< The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. >>>

Do you really know this or does it just make for a cool sounding story?

<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>

Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.

<<< Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. >>>

I have never heard this. Just to be clear, it's not "antibodies," rather it's a specific antibody that the immune system has developed to kill this specific Covid-19 virus. Plus ultimately this is a binary situation, the virus is either killed or not killed. If the body has to throw more antibodies at the problem, presumably that's what it will do.

Certainly we don't have data on how long immunity will last for this particular virus. However, it's a known fact that in many cases your antibody production factories can give you lifetime immunity.

So, as far as I am concerned my question, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus" has not been answered. It's reasonable to conclude that there is a good chance that we could get lifetime immunity and not transmit the virus. But we just don't have the data. We can only try to make wise inferences based on past experience.

Second question:

<<< Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive. >>>

This is explained by the mechanism of evolution.

You didn't answer my question. You give us a story about bats and how bats are different from humans. It still doesn't answer my question.

"How the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore" remains unanswered.

A virus is just a single-stranded piece of DNA surrounded by a protection layer of fats. It's essentially the same thing if it comes from an animal or a human. A virus from an animal that leaps to a human will have the same lifecycle as a native human virus. They both exist in the same environment and the body will work to develop antibodies against them. My feeling is it's just another example of non-scientific hysterical rhetoric coming from journalists and even the medical professionals themselves because of the political and legal pressure they are being subjected to. The way the Covid-19 virus operates inside the body will be essentially the same as the way other viruses operate inside the body.

Okay, you classify yourself as "lay person". Since I had the impression you were, I used some relatively simple examples. Just for your information (not to play big time), I am a University educated research analytical chemist (not a guy who sells stuff in some pharmacy store). Part of my work, apart from doingresearch, was to train medical students (including future virologists), pharmaceutical students, biology students, veterenary students how to deal with data obtained from research. To put it simple: hoe to learn to ANALYSE. You may think that's easy, well let me tell you that more recent I have dealt with experienced doctors and some are (still) not open to the fact that data are not just a set of figures, but that they are INFORMATION.
Do you dare to honestly tell on this forum what your background/history is? "Lay person" is a cheap way to introduce yourself. Or are you afraid to get sued? Europe, Australisia, Japan are not ruined by an army of sueing laywers, so researchers don't need to be afraid like maybe in the USA. Your theory on research and politics smells very paranoid and it's a very cheap way to hide yourself in your "lay person" self. You say you dig science 100%, but science itself is hardly ever 100%. In order to make progress sometimes (unfortunately!) parameters and/or weighted assumptions have to be made. Over time, based on progressing experience, those parameters/assumptions have to be corrected or (that would then be great) can be deleted altogether. But maybe this is too difficult for a "lay person"?
Then your second question. Did you create that question yourself or did you "quote" it from someone/somewhere else? Aparently I am not the only one here who wonders what you mean with "not applicable anymore"? Where did you get that statement? Is that your own "conclusion" or did you copy it from some article? The way "NOT applicable anymore" is part of your question, is indeed "lay person" like (not specifically referring to you, because even among researchers you can find infinitly stupid people) An intelligent researcher would/should not formulate a question that way. Nothing is black-or-white, so NOT applicable makes the question a stupid, not science based question. No wonder you don't get the answer you "are looking for". Make sure, if you copy from science, that you know what you're doing. It would suit you.

Some of your answers to what I wrote makes me wonder where you did get your statements from. "It's not antibodies, but antibody" ??? So what you say is that there are no viruses in your body, but only "virus". Get real, each virus is attacked/ destroyed individually. Study microscope movies and you will see that there is nothing random about it. Really try to find microscopic scale movies, where you can clearly see what happens! So, it's not antibody, but antibodies. Your "random" story is total rubbish. Do you actually know the meaning of random?
The "smooth virus" vs "spikes" is not a fancy story (like your "random motion" crap). If you are really digging science, then you would have found microscopic scale movies on how viruses are attacked by antibodies (not by antibody, stupid) a long time ago and you would not have created those rediculous "counter questions", which in fact are no questions.
Anyway, I assumed you were a lay person, so I came up with simple explanations, but even those you don't seem to understand, judging from your "counter questions".
Still, I hope for you that somehow you are a happy person, who is not so stupid to ignore reality to eventually get "f*cked" by Covid-19 or any other virus.
And for your information, try to look up what Sarcoidosis is. It happened to me some thirty years ago. It will tell you how VIRUSES in a human body can work (for sure no random crap). If you can understand that, there is hope. I was cured by my 42 years young strong body capable of making plenty of antibodies (not body), WITHOUT the help of medication, within 9 months. Since I wanted to be master of my own destiny I studied every detail of that illness and made my choices together with the knowledge of qualified (not afraid to be sued) medical experts who guided me. And about that 20% statement (I hope you understand it could be 18 or 23 for that matter), around a little over 1 year after my cure, there turned out to be some viruses "left" which attacked my body again, but that attack was neutralised within four weeks. Aparently plenty of healthy antibodies left. After that never any problem again. Viruses, nasty creatures. When our globe is consumed by the sun, they will still float around somewhere in our solar system.

The good news (at least for me and those who love me) ... I'm still around, just like The Rolling Stones

I always had the feeling you were much smarter than the average Stones fan georgie!
As for me, I'm simply a University educated artist (ha), and find it very interesting and enlightening to read your take on all of this - especially considering your expertise and personal experience.

Glad you're still around...cheers georgie.

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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DandelionPowderman
Just read what the scientists say. It's possible to transmit the virus even though you've taken the vaccine.

But I was asking if you could distill that down and answer with real reasons how you could transmit the virus when you have immunity.

None the less, the critical point is that they don't know because they don't have the data yet. If they proposed to do a clinical trial with volunteers that agree to be given the virus after they were vaccinated the Internet would break ten times over.

And the key word is "possible." And that means it's also possible that there is no way to transmit the virus after you have immunity. Presumably the virus would be eliminated in your system or be at such a low level that it is not transmissible.

Just heard about this:

Via Variety - Larry King Hospitalized With COVID-19 (Report) > Larry King

"Larry King has tested positive for COVID-19 and is receiving treatment at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, sources close to the King family told ABC News and CNN....
Showbiz 411 first reported the news on Jan. 1, noting that King is in isolation at the hospital and unable to receive visits from family".
----------------------------------------------

And more from CNN > Larry King

"Legendary talk show host and former CNN interviewer Larry King has Covid-19, according to a source close to the family.
King, 87, has been hospitalized at Cedars Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles for more than a week, the source said.
Due to protocols at the hospital, King's three sons have been unable to visit him, according to the source".

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-03 04:59 by Hairball.

Georgie48,

Okay, you classify yourself as "lay person". Since I had the impression you were, I used some relatively simple examples. Just for your information (not to play big time), I am a University educated research analytical chemist (not a guy who sells stuff in some pharmacy store).

>> Okay, so you are not a virologist or a medical doctor so I will classify you as a lay person too.

Part of my work, apart from doing
research, was to train medical students (including future virologists), pharmaceutical students, biology students, veterenary students how to deal with data obtained from research. To put it simple: hoe to learn to ANALYSE. You may think that's easy, well let me tell you that more recent I have dealt with experienced doctors and some are (still) not open to the fact that data are not just a set of figures, but that they are INFORMATION.
Do you dare to honestly tell on this forum what your background/history is? "Lay person" is a cheap way to introduce yourself. Or are you afraid to get sued? Europe, Australisia, Japan are not ruined by an army of sueing laywers, so researchers don't need to be afraid like maybe in the USA. Your theory on research and politics smells very paranoid and it's a very cheap way to hide yourself in your "lay person" self.

>> I would not classify it as paranoid. Rather, I lament that we are living in an age with a new type of McCarthyism.

You say you dig science 100%, but science itself is hardly ever 100%. In order to make progress sometimes (unfortunately!) parameters and/or weighted assumptions have to be made. Over time, based on progressing experience, those parameters/assumptions have to be corrected or (that would then be great) can be deleted altogether. But maybe this is too difficult for a "lay person"?

>> The whole attitude thing sucks Georgie.

Then your second question. Did you create that question yourself or did you "quote" it from someone/somewhere else?

>> I just paraphrased somebody else's posting earlier in the thread.

>> It came from this statement, "Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has not been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is."

Aparently I am not the only one here who wonders what you mean with "not applicable anymore"? Where did you get that statement? Is that your own "conclusion" or did you copy it from some article? The way "NOT applicable anymore" is part of your question, is indeed "lay person" like (not specifically referring to you, because even among researchers you can find infinitly stupid people) An intelligent researcher would/should not formulate a question that way. Nothing is black-or-white, so NOT applicable makes the question a stupid, not science based question. No wonder you don't get the answer you "are looking for". Make sure, if you copy from science, that you know what you're doing. It would suit you.

Some of your answers to what I wrote makes me wonder where you did get your statements from. "It's not antibodies, but antibody" ??? So what you say is that there are no viruses in your body, but only "virus". Get real, each virus is attacked/ destroyed individually.

>> Are you trying to tell me that you didn't understand what I meant when I said this, "Just to be clear, it's not "antibodies," rather it's a specific antibody that the immune system has developed to kill this specific Covid-19 virus."

>> Really?

>> And the reason I said it was because your two "stories" were so dumbed-down that I thought that you were not aware of the fact that the immune system develops multiple unique antibodies to combat the multiple unique viruses that it encounters. Kind of like a comedy of errors.

Study microscope movies and you will see that there is nothing random about it. Really try to find microscopic scale movies, where you can clearly see what happens!

>> Nope, there are microscopic viruses and antibodies randomly drifting along in a macro environment. A macro quasi Brownian motion. What happens on a micro localized scale is a different story.

So, it's not antibody, but antibodies. Your "random" story is total rubbish. Do you actually know the meaning of random?

>> You are the Grand Poobah of grandstanding.

The "smooth virus" vs "spikes" is not a fancy story (like your "random motion" crap). If you are really digging science, then you would have found microscopic scale movies on how viruses are attacked by antibodies (not by antibody, stupid) a long time ago and you would not have created those rediculous "counter questions", which in fact are no questions.
Anyway, I assumed you were a lay person, so I came up with simple explanations, but even those you don't seem to understand, judging from your "counter questions".

>> All hail the Grand Poobah.

Still, I hope for you that somehow you are a happy person, who is not so stupid to ignore reality to eventually get "f*cked" by Covid-19 or any other virus.
And for your information, try to look up what Sarcoidosis is. It happened to me some thirty years ago. It will tell you how VIRUSES in a human body can work (for sure no random crap). If you can understand that, there is hope. I was cured by my 42 years young strong body capable of making plenty of antibodies (not body), WITHOUT the help of medication, within 9 months. Since I wanted to be master of my own destiny I studied every detail of that illness and made my choices together with the knowledge of qualified (not afraid to be sued) medical experts who guided me. And about that 20% statement (I hope you understand it could be 18 or 23 for that matter), around a little over 1 year after my cure, there turned out to be some viruses "left" which attacked my body again, but that attack was neutralised within four weeks. Aparently plenty of healthy antibodies left. After that never any problem again. Viruses, nasty creatures. When our globe is consumed by the sun, they will still float around somewhere in our solar system.

>> Sorry that happened to you. I now realize that in many cases a virus will not be eliminated but instead remains in constant battle with the immune system. In most cases the immune system dominates such that the virus exists at a benign background level akin to background radiation in the environment. To be more specific I actually knew this the whole time, but I forgot it over the short term.

The good news (at least for me and those who love me) ... I'm still around, just like The Rolling Stones [/quote]

>> The good news is that since the currently stated outlook is that you might need to wear a mask after you have immunity, the opposite is just as equally valid and probably closer to the truth. That being that you will not need to wear a mask after you have immunity. There is an ethical barrier to cross to do a study to answer that question and in this climate I don't think anybody will be willing to cross it. Just making a tweet suggesting that it be considered would be enough for you to lose your job and lose your career.

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GasLightStreet
Cognitive issues... we all shine on, sure, but some a lot less than others.

La la la la lah lah lah lahhhhhh.

Well let's see...

In the beginning of the pandemic I made multiple postings stating that you should ignore what the medical experts and media are telling you and go and buy masks and start wearing them. Remember?

I was right.

Then a few months later I stated that there was a very good chance that there would be a vaccine ready by the end of 2020 because a tremendous amount of resources were being poured into this spanning multiple research efforts across the globe. I don't recall many other people stating that. And guess what?

I was right.

We can speculate that in perhaps eight or ten months from now, the WHO will issue a release stating that if you have had your two shots and you have immunity there is no need to wear a mask because you can't transmit the virus to anyone because your immune system keeps the virus at near-zero levels.

If that does transpire in the future, that will be the third time that I was right.

Dare to shine.

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MileHigh

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GasLightStreet
Cognitive issues... we all shine on, sure, but some a lot less than others.

La la la la lah lah lah lahhhhhh.

Well let's see...

In the beginning of the pandemic I made multiple postings stating that you should ignore what the medical experts and media are telling you and go and buy masks and start wearing them. Remember?

I was right.

Then a few months later I stated that there was a very good chance that there would be a vaccine ready by the end of 2020 because a tremendous amount of resources were being poured into this spanning multiple research efforts across the globe. I don't recall many other people stating that. And guess what?

I was right.

We can speculate that in perhaps eight or ten months from now, the WHO will issue a release stating that if you have had your two shots and you have immunity there is no need to wear a mask because you can't transmit the virus to anyone because your immune system keeps the virus at near-zero levels.

If that does transpire in the future, that will be the third time that I was right.

Dare to shine.

Please end this discussion. It has been going on for days now, and it is growing into a campaign. There are different opinions on the subject. End of story.

Bjornulf

Joe & The Juice is an example of a company who do not really take the pandemic seriously. Sure they say so in public, but the way they act for real is different.

We have covid-19 rules, and inspectors who make sure that everyone do follow these rules. When they inspect Joe & The Juice locations, they have to report again and again that they are breaking the rules. They do allow chairs and people to be too close, and they play their music way too loud.

The covid-19 rules are stating music should NOT be played loud, as people then have to sit and talk very close, and raise their voices, which is a sure way of transmitting covid-19.

When asked why they play the music loud, they say it is the business concept of Joe & The Juice. So the music stay loud. Then when they are faced with a fine, they lower the volume. Without penalties, laws and regulations are worthless. Also, the business ethics of Joe & The Juice are questionable.

No wonder it is hard to fight the pandemic.

Får refs etter flere brudd på smittevernet (Budstikka - our local paper 02 Jan 2001)

Bjornulf

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bv
Joe & The Juice is an example of a company who do not really take the pandemic seriously. Sure they say so in public, but the way they act for real is different.

We have covid-19 rules, and inspectors who make sure that everyone do follow these rules. When they inspect Joe & The Juice locations, they have to report again and again that they are breaking the rules. They do allow chairs and people to be too close, and they play their music way too loud.

The covid-19 rules are stating music should NOT be played loud, as people then have to sit and talk very close, and raise their voices, which is a sure way of transmitting covid-19.

When asked why they play the music loud, they say it is the business concept of Joe & The Juice. So the music stay loud. Then when they are faced with a fine, they lower the volume. Without penalties, laws and regulations are worthless. Also, the business ethics of Joe & The Juice are questionable.

No wonder it is hard to fight the pandemic.

Får refs etter flere brudd på smittevernet (Budstikka - our local paper 02 Jan 2001)

You're right bv. Solid fines is all that really works. When I visited London several times in the late 60s I was surprised to find this big city with clean streets (I had Amsterdam as a reference ). No surprise really, because everywhere on park or side street fences you could see an official note saying that littering would be fined. If I remember well, an amount of 45£ was mentioned and that was a lot of money in those days. Nothing of the kind in Amsterdam
(By the way, as of your request, I stop that discussion. To me it was merely trying to present different views and real life experiences )

Holland is a small country with a population of +- 17000.000 people. When you watch the the supermarkets from outside you get dizzy.Yesterday I had to go back twice because going inside is asking for trouble. 1,5 meter distance is something people seem to ignore completely. Quite frustrating actually. When things continue like this it will be at least April before we get out of this stifling total lockdown.

CDC cites "jaw dropping" actual US Covid related death figures - close to 500,000

[www.mediaite.com]

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Chris Fountain
CDC cites "jaw dropping" actual US Covid related death figures - close to 500,000

[www.mediaite.com]

Not surprising really. Maybe these are even optimistic figures. A week or so ago the CBS in the Netherlands reported an "overkill" which was even higher than the around 12.000 official Covid-19 deaths reported. So we ended up this year with around 25.000 corona related deaths. CBS has proven over decades to be much closer to the truth than other official reporters.

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bv

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MileHigh

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GasLightStreet
Cognitive issues... we all shine on, sure, but some a lot less than others.

La la la la lah lah lah lahhhhhh.

Well let's see...

In the beginning of the pandemic I made multiple postings stating that you should ignore what the medical experts and media are telling you and go and buy masks and start wearing them. Remember?

I was right.

Then a few months later I stated that there was a very good chance that there would be a vaccine ready by the end of 2020 because a tremendous amount of resources were being poured into this spanning multiple research efforts across the globe. I don't recall many other people stating that. And guess what?

I was right.

We can speculate that in perhaps eight or ten months from now, the WHO will issue a release stating that if you have had your two shots and you have immunity there is no need to wear a mask because you can't transmit the virus to anyone because your immune system keeps the virus at near-zero levels.

If that does transpire in the future, that will be the third time that I was right.

Dare to shine.

Please end this discussion. It has been going on for days now, and it is growing into a campaign. There are different opinions on the subject. End of story.

I thought I did end it. Someone that has an ego that refuses to just shut up (that's the "campaign" part) has to keep saying things that don't matter.

There are different opinions - but facts are facts. Opinions are not facts, some just coincide with facts. I'm not the only one here that sees that, as some have stepped in to acknowledge that in the mire of the campaign you've mentioned, nor the kind that hangs on to or takes their ball home.

In other words, I have zero reason to wonder or apologize for staying on the side of caution based on science about a virus that is not in the class of the human animal and questioning the unknown, not relying on the past and going by assumption based on other viruses - that's just ignorant. I'm not an idiot flag waver, aka fake patriot, either - no one has trampled on my liberty like some idiot Americans have ranted about. Cases continue to rise. Where I live the numbers have climbed up considerably. I've learned some things about handling COVID that some people in the medical field with an assumptive attitude have been completely ignorant and arrogant about because they know how things work blah blah blah and then they've felt "one upped" when that is not the case. Nobody "wins" because they know something. Oddly a lot of people can lose though if they think things that aren't true or assume things.

There's a lot of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' attitude in the US. One of the biggest issues with that is that what's "working" isn't exactly or usually right. A majority of the US goes by 'good enough'. It seems to me that is not an accepted attitude elsewhere.

In a small country like Holland it's almost impossible to control the movements of ca 17.000.000 people.People want to move, stay in touch physically etc. We cannot suppress basic instincts unless you put every single person in a prison cell. The only way out is a vaccin for almost everyone. Until then the amount of Covid infections will increase despite all the measurements taken by the authorities to keep it in control at best.

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TheflyingDutchman
In a small country like Holland it's almost impossible to control the movements of ca 17.000.000 people.People want to move, stay in touch physically etc. We cannot suppress basic instincts unless you put every single person in a prison cell. The only way out is a vaccin for almost everyone. Until then the amount of Covid infections will increase despite all the measurements taken by the authorities to keep it in control at best.

well, there are some countries, regions, cities etc. where social distancing works much better than in other places. Cultural factors, habitus etc. play an important role. Take Germany as an example: the infection rates are much lower in Hamburg (1,7 million people) that in Berlin (3,5 mio). But even in Berlin they are much lower than in the federal state of Saxiona (Sachsen) (4 Mio). Note the Berlin and Hamburg have a much higher population density. Thus social distancing should be much easier in Saxiona!

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TheflyingDutchman
In a small country like Holland it's almost impossible to control the movements of ca 17.000.000 people.People want to move, stay in touch physically etc. We cannot suppress basic instincts unless you put every single person in a prison cell. The only way out is a vaccin for almost everyone. Until then the amount of Covid infections will increase despite all the measurements taken by the authorities to keep it in control at best.

Originally pubs, restaurants, etc. were told that they would be fines with 4500€ if they ignores the lockdown. Several, in particular, pubs were fined and it worked! But over times checking went sloppy so people give it a try again. Heavy fines work, but only if you apply them on a large scale. Party organizers (in whatever way) should be fined 10.000€ or more. It will work. "We" greedy Dutch are only sensitive when money becomes involved

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georgie48

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TheflyingDutchman
In a small country like Holland it's almost impossible to control the movements of ca 17.000.000 people.People want to move, stay in touch physically etc. We cannot suppress basic instincts unless you put every single person in a prison cell. The only way out is a vaccin for almost everyone. Until then the amount of Covid infections will increase despite all the measurements taken by the authorities to keep it in control at best.

Originally pubs, restaurants, etc. were told that they would be fines with 4500€ if they ignores the lockdown. Several, in particular, pubs were fined and it worked! But over times checking went sloppy so people give it a try again. Heavy fines work, but only if you apply them on a large scale. Party organizers (in whatever way) should be fined 10.000€ or more. It will work. "We" greedy Dutch are only sensitive when money becomes involved

Sure heavy fines work, but still people will go "underground".You cannot control everybody unless you want to live in a country like North Korea.

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georgie48

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TheflyingDutchman
In a small country like Holland it's almost impossible to control the movements of ca 17.000.000 people.People want to move, stay in touch physically etc. We cannot suppress basic instincts unless you put every single person in a prison cell. The only way out is a vaccin for almost everyone. Until then the amount of Covid infections will increase despite all the measurements taken by the authorities to keep it in control at best.

Originally pubs, restaurants, etc. were told that they would be fines with 4500€ if they ignores the lockdown. Several, in particular, pubs were fined and it worked! But over times checking went sloppy so people give it a try again. Heavy fines work, but only if you apply them on a large scale. Party organizers (in whatever way) should be fined 10.000€ or more. It will work. "We" greedy Dutch are only sensitive when money becomes involved

In the US there's this gargantuan misplaced loud fake fear about "socialism" destroying the country (espoused by the same troglodytes that rage about guns and "we the people", which has nothing to do with anything today) - even though it is a capitalist socialist country - apparently health is a no no but subsidized airplane tickets, "freeways", gas mileage reducing ethanol courtesy of corn and the greatest one of all possibly, cheap bananas, are way more important. In a few more years that generation will have been misplaced due to bad health and death enough to shut the @#$%& up permanently.

Vietnam is a country of 96 million people, i.e. roughly 1/3 of the population in USA. Still, they have just 35 deaths from covid-19, the last death back in early September. Selective lock down and test trace makes it easier to keep the country and economy healthy. Also, keeping politics away from the pandemic works helps a lot.

Vietnam is fighting Covid without pitting economic growth against public health (The Guardian)

To date, Vietnam (population: 95 million) has recorded 35 deaths from the novel coronavirus.

The central reason is perhaps the way the government has depoliticised the pandemic, treating it purely as a health crisis, allowing for effective governance. There was no political motive for government officials to hide information, as they don’t face being reprimanded if there are positive cases in their authority area that are not due to their mistakes. I haven’t heard about any religious opposition to the government’s strategy either.

Given that Vietnam is one of the few countries in the world currently experiencing positive GDP growth, the supposed trade-off between the economy and public health, which countries around the world are negotiating, looks to be something of a false choice.

Bjornulf

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bv
Vietnam is a country of 96 million people, i.e. roughly 1/3 of the population in USA. Still, they have just 35 deaths from covid-19, the last death back in early September. Selective lock down and test trace makes it easier to keep the country and economy healthy. Also, keeping politics away from the pandemic works helps a lot.

Vietnam having a one party system basically works very well in this case.

I do not care about stats anymore. If you want to live life as normal and overestimate YOUR LIFE TIME ON EARTH - Then go- ahead-


I'm in a self-imposed lockdown, will wear a mask, and respect others' distance, wash hands etc...

If you want to still continue to watch people die for no reason and watch sports games in empty stadiums-


Then go to hell!!!

This very inconsiderate behavior, is selfish and a death wish.


Please do not put your stupidity in the hands of my life.


Revision: underestimate to overestimate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-03 20:07 by Chris Fountain.

Many countries with one party systems are doing great related to the pandemic, avoiding many deaths and infections. Then still, Australia, New Zealand, Japan have more than one party, they are doing great too. Norway have more than ten parties, still we are doing better than countries with two party systems. Same with the other Nordic countries. I think it is more to this than politics.

Bjornulf

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MileHigh

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GasLightStreet
Cognitive issues... we all shine on, sure, but some a lot less than others.

La la la la lah lah lah lahhhhhh.

Well let's see...

In the beginning of the pandemic I made multiple postings stating that you should ignore what the medical experts and media are telling you and go and buy masks and start wearing them. Remember?

I was right.

Then a few months later I stated that there was a very good chance that there would be a vaccine ready by the end of 2020 because a tremendous amount of resources were being poured into this spanning multiple research efforts across the globe. I don't recall many other people stating that. And guess what?

I was right.

We can speculate that in perhaps eight or ten months from now, the WHO will issue a release stating that if you have had your two shots and you have immunity there is no need to wear a mask because you can't transmit the virus to anyone because your immune system keeps the virus at near-zero levels.

If that does transpire in the future, that will be the third time that I was right.

Dare to shine.

Oh my. How profound & prophetic. You must be a Mensa!

Norway are starting a 14 days soft lock down Monday Jan 4, banning alcohol sales in bars and restaurants, also max 5 people at private parties, with a recommendation of no visitors at all in private homes during the next 14 days.

The corona virus reproduction rate "R" in Norway is now 1.3 while it was 0.8 just a few weeks ago. The goal is to keep the R below 1.0, so that the number of cases is going down. The authorities are expected to keep adding measures until the R is below 1.0. Otherwise we will have a long and dark winter.

Bjornulf

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bv
Many countries with one party systems are doing great related to the pandemic, avoiding many deaths and infections. Then still, Australia, New Zealand, Japan have more than one party, they are doing great too. Norway have more than ten parties, still we are doing better than countries with two party systems. Same with the other Nordic countries. I think it is more to this than politics.

Of course there is more to this than politics. Countries that close their borders,
the economical and geographical factors, the behaviour of the population (Vietnam)
etc etc. Still I believe these factors are more or less a "Quik Fix". As soon as we want to go back to normal, the amount of Covid- cases will increase again.In the end the only solution is a vaccin, worldwide.

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GasLightStreet

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georgie48

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TheflyingDutchman
In a small country like Holland it's almost impossible to control the movements of ca 17.000.000 people.People want to move, stay in touch physically etc. We cannot suppress basic instincts unless you put every single person in a prison cell. The only way out is a vaccin for almost everyone. Until then the amount of Covid infections will increase despite all the measurements taken by the authorities to keep it in control at best.

Originally pubs, restaurants, etc. were told that they would be fines with 4500€ if they ignores the lockdown. Several, in particular, pubs were fined and it worked! But over times checking went sloppy so people give it a try again. Heavy fines work, but only if you apply them on a large scale. Party organizers (in whatever way) should be fined 10.000€ or more. It will work. "We" greedy Dutch are only sensitive when money becomes involved

In the US there's this gargantuan misplaced loud fake fear about "socialism" destroying the country (espoused by the same troglodytes that rage about guns and "we the people", which has nothing to do with anything today) - even though it is a capitalist socialist country - apparently health is a no no but subsidized airplane tickets, "freeways", gas mileage reducing ethanol courtesy of corn and the greatest one of all possibly, cheap bananas, are way more important. In a few more years that generation will have been misplaced due to bad health and death enough to shut the @#$%& up permanently.

We planned to go to the USA last year (also in connection with the Stones off course ...). but both Mick's health and later on my wife's blocked that option. We visited the US many, many times (incl. National Parks and Stones) and me also for work many times. Now Covid-19 blows any oportunity, and I'm afraid for maybe well over another year. It hurts to read (many data) the devistating impact of the virus on daily life in your country. And I do understand your frustration. 3 million people traveling for Christmas (1%) will possibly have an impact on another 5% (or 15 million) of Americans, making the upcoming two months very grim. I truly hope I'm wrong. Still, frustration causes stress, so make sure you have plenty of Stones music to relax!

The lockdown restrictions where I live in Southern California were recently extended for several weeks, and heard that San Francisco up north has had their restrictions extended indefinitely.
Being that our state is quite large, we're divided up by regions, and right now four of the five regions are all under stay home orders with only the northern most region being somewhat "safe".
With the holidays now over, things will be going from bad to worse - the ICU capacity is already at zero in the SoCal region. Not sure how much worse it could get, but not looking forward to finding out.
With the vaccine delays across the US, the new mutations, not to mention the vaccine/virus deniers who think it's all a conspiracy or a hoax, thing probably won't get back to any form of normalcy for at least a year.

California Covid Info: COVID19.CA.GOV

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......