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MileHighQuote
georgie48
<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>
Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.
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IrixQuote
MileHighQuote
georgie48
<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>
Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.
It's not true that a virus cannot remain in the human body. A typical remaining virus his Herpes Zoster (Varicella). Most people know it from Chickenpox.
After the primary infection the Varicella remains latent in cells of the sensory nerves. Reactivation of Varicella (e.g. due to stress or weakened immune system) results in a syndrome of Herpes Zoster, like Shingles - [en.Wikipedia.org] , [en.Wikipedia.org] .
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IrixQuote
MileHighQuote
georgie48
<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>
Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.
It's not true that a virus cannot remain in the human body. A typical remaining virus his Herpes Zoster (Varicella). Most people know it from Chickenpox.
After the primary infection the Varicella remains latent in cells of the sensory nerves. Reactivation of Varicella (e.g. due to stress or weakened immune system) results in a syndrome of Herpes Zoster, like Shingles - [en.Wikipedia.org] , [en.Wikipedia.org] .
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georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
Your first question:
You must have read that covid-19 is a corona type virus. The influenza virus is not. You and I walk on the street and bounce into eachother. Possible outcome could be that we both say sorry and continue our own way. Now, again we both walk on the street, but this time I have surrounded my body with sharp spikes. We bounce into eachother. Result is that your body is full with holes and blood seeps out everywhere. Outcome ... you end up in hospital and I just walk on to my next victim.
The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. Our bodies have to make antibodies to tackle a virus. They kill the viruses and you're happy again for a while. The body can "store" an access of antibodies for some time (an then you are immune). The making of antibodies to tackle a corona type virus appears to be more complex and those antibodies differ from those used to tackle "smooth" viruses. Possibly the former type antibodies are less stable and can not hold on in your body as long as the latter type antibodies. In other words immunity length can be (considerably) different. Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. The final 20 viruses may be dead after three months and you are immune (for how long?).
Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. It, unfortunately, takes time to get a good picture on this. In any way, being immune for three months is still far better than not being immune because one refuses vaccination.
Your second question:
In the Mogave desert in Californië you may run into a scorpion that kills you with one sting in no time. In that same desert there live very small animals which are totally immune for a sting of that same scorpion! They even eat them. How come? The poison from the scorpion that enters our body may be (don't take the figure literally) 1 microgram per liter of your blood. That same 1 microgram also enters the blood of that tiny animal (I will look up what name that animal has). The amount of blood is 5% of what we have in our body. Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive.
Same with viruses. A (for us deadly) virus that lives in the body of a bat has no effect on the well being of that bat (I want to add that our body hosts thousands of viruses that have no ill-making let alone killing effect on us). The bat also hosts many different viruses that have no effect on the bat. Many of the bat's viruses are very different from our own viruses and very much is not yet known about how bat virusses come about in the body of that bat and so it's very difficult to even know/understand their impact on us humans. There is a lot of research going on about this, but a problem is that one thing "we" have learned is that because we know so little, we can't just use humans as experimental ginnypigs. So ... we use animals to study. And that creates another uncertaincy. I mentioned the case of the scorpion. A human body is not the body of a desert mouse?
Now, take the common cold virus, we know soooo much about it already for sooo long a time, but still there is no simple medication that can prevent us from getting the cold at all !?!?! It can't be that difficult, right? Such a medication could make the farmacy industry even more rich, but ....
Science is not like eating a tasty cake, it is (or can be in complex cases) hard and very patient labour. Believe me, I know.
Truly, I feel for you, because scientists are not always the people who can explain their results in words that can be understood by ordinary people. Among those ordinary people are a group named journalists/reporters. Too often they pretend to understand what scientists try to tell, but my oh my, I've read too many dreadful articles which basically proof that they are just also ... ordinary people.
Okay, so you have constructed some narratives to explain your reasoning. I am a lay person when it comes to this stuff and you are a lay person also, right?
First question:
<<< The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. >>>
Do you really know this or does it just make for a cool sounding story?
<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>
Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.
<<< Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. >>>
I have never heard this. Just to be clear, it's not "antibodies," rather it's a specific antibody that the immune system has developed to kill this specific Covid-19 virus. Plus ultimately this is a binary situation, the virus is either killed or not killed. If the body has to throw more antibodies at the problem, presumably that's what it will do.
Certainly we don't have data on how long immunity will last for this particular virus. However, it's a known fact that in many cases your antibody production factories can give you lifetime immunity.
So, as far as I am concerned my question, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus" has not been answered. It's reasonable to conclude that there is a good chance that we could get lifetime immunity and not transmit the virus. But we just don't have the data. We can only try to make wise inferences based on past experience.
Second question:
<<< Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive. >>>
This is explained by the mechanism of evolution.
You didn't answer my question. You give us a story about bats and how bats are different from humans. It still doesn't answer my question.
"How the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore" remains unanswered.
A virus is just a single-stranded piece of DNA surrounded by a protection layer of fats. It's essentially the same thing if it comes from an animal or a human. A virus from an animal that leaps to a human will have the same lifecycle as a native human virus. They both exist in the same environment and the body will work to develop antibodies against them. My feeling is it's just another example of non-scientific hysterical rhetoric coming from journalists and even the medical professionals themselves because of the political and legal pressure they are being subjected to. The way the Covid-19 virus operates inside the body will be essentially the same as the way other viruses operate inside the body.
Okay, you classify yourself as "lay person". Since I had the impression you were, I used some relatively simple examples. Just for your information (not to play big time), I am a University educated research analytical chemist (not a guy who sells stuff in some pharmacy store). Part of my work, apart from doingresearch, was to train medical students (including future virologists), pharmaceutical students, biology students, veterenary students how to deal with data obtained from research. To put it simple: hoe to learn to ANALYSE. You may think that's easy, well let me tell you that more recent I have dealt with experienced doctors and some are (still) not open to the fact that data are not just a set of figures, but that they are INFORMATION.
Do you dare to honestly tell on this forum what your background/history is? "Lay person" is a cheap way to introduce yourself. Or are you afraid to get sued? Europe, Australisia, Japan are not ruined by an army of sueing laywers, so researchers don't need to be afraid like maybe in the USA. Your theory on research and politics smells very paranoid and it's a very cheap way to hide yourself in your "lay person" self. You say you dig science 100%, but science itself is hardly ever 100%. In order to make progress sometimes (unfortunately!) parameters and/or weighted assumptions have to be made. Over time, based on progressing experience, those parameters/assumptions have to be corrected or (that would then be great) can be deleted altogether. But maybe this is too difficult for a "lay person"?
Then your second question. Did you create that question yourself or did you "quote" it from someone/somewhere else? Aparently I am not the only one here who wonders what you mean with "not applicable anymore"? Where did you get that statement? Is that your own "conclusion" or did you copy it from some article? The way "NOT applicable anymore" is part of your question, is indeed "lay person" like (not specifically referring to you, because even among researchers you can find infinitly stupid people) An intelligent researcher would/should not formulate a question that way. Nothing is black-or-white, so NOT applicable makes the question a stupid, not science based question. No wonder you don't get the answer you "are looking for". Make sure, if you copy from science, that you know what you're doing. It would suit you.
Some of your answers to what I wrote makes me wonder where you did get your statements from. "It's not antibodies, but antibody" ??? So what you say is that there are no viruses in your body, but only "virus". Get real, each virus is attacked/ destroyed individually. Study microscope movies and you will see that there is nothing random about it. Really try to find microscopic scale movies, where you can clearly see what happens! So, it's not antibody, but antibodies. Your "random" story is total rubbish. Do you actually know the meaning of random?
The "smooth virus" vs "spikes" is not a fancy story (like your "random motion" crap). If you are really digging science, then you would have found microscopic scale movies on how viruses are attacked by antibodies (not by antibody, stupid) a long time ago and you would not have created those rediculous "counter questions", which in fact are no questions.
Anyway, I assumed you were a lay person, so I came up with simple explanations, but even those you don't seem to understand, judging from your "counter questions".
Still, I hope for you that somehow you are a happy person, who is not so stupid to ignore reality to eventually get "f*cked" by Covid-19 or any other virus.
And for your information, try to look up what Sarcoidosis is. It happened to me some thirty years ago. It will tell you how VIRUSES in a human body can work (for sure no random crap). If you can understand that, there is hope. I was cured by my 42 years young strong body capable of making plenty of antibodies (not body), WITHOUT the help of medication, within 9 months. Since I wanted to be master of my own destiny I studied every detail of that illness and made my choices together with the knowledge of qualified (not afraid to be sued) medical experts who guided me. And about that 20% statement (I hope you understand it could be 18 or 23 for that matter), around a little over 1 year after my cure, there turned out to be some viruses "left" which attacked my body again, but that attack was neutralised within four weeks. Aparently plenty of healthy antibodies left. After that never any problem again. Viruses, nasty creatures. When our globe is consumed by the sun, they will still float around somewhere in our solar system.
The good news (at least for me and those who love me) ... I'm still around, just like The Rolling Stones
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DandelionPowderman
Just read what the scientists say. It's possible to transmit the virus even though you've taken the vaccine.
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GasLightStreet
Cognitive issues... we all shine on, sure, but some a lot less than others.
La la la la lah lah lah lahhhhhh.
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MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
Cognitive issues... we all shine on, sure, but some a lot less than others.
La la la la lah lah lah lahhhhhh.
Well let's see...
In the beginning of the pandemic I made multiple postings stating that you should ignore what the medical experts and media are telling you and go and buy masks and start wearing them. Remember?
I was right.
Then a few months later I stated that there was a very good chance that there would be a vaccine ready by the end of 2020 because a tremendous amount of resources were being poured into this spanning multiple research efforts across the globe. I don't recall many other people stating that. And guess what?
I was right.
We can speculate that in perhaps eight or ten months from now, the WHO will issue a release stating that if you have had your two shots and you have immunity there is no need to wear a mask because you can't transmit the virus to anyone because your immune system keeps the virus at near-zero levels.
If that does transpire in the future, that will be the third time that I was right.
Dare to shine.
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bv
Joe & The Juice is an example of a company who do not really take the pandemic seriously. Sure they say so in public, but the way they act for real is different.
We have covid-19 rules, and inspectors who make sure that everyone do follow these rules. When they inspect Joe & The Juice locations, they have to report again and again that they are breaking the rules. They do allow chairs and people to be too close, and they play their music way too loud.
The covid-19 rules are stating music should NOT be played loud, as people then have to sit and talk very close, and raise their voices, which is a sure way of transmitting covid-19.
When asked why they play the music loud, they say it is the business concept of Joe & The Juice. So the music stay loud. Then when they are faced with a fine, they lower the volume. Without penalties, laws and regulations are worthless. Also, the business ethics of Joe & The Juice are questionable.
No wonder it is hard to fight the pandemic.
Får refs etter flere brudd på smittevernet (Budstikka - our local paper 02 Jan 2001)
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Chris Fountain
CDC cites "jaw dropping" actual US Covid related death figures - close to 500,000
[www.mediaite.com]
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bvQuote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
Cognitive issues... we all shine on, sure, but some a lot less than others.
La la la la lah lah lah lahhhhhh.
Well let's see...
In the beginning of the pandemic I made multiple postings stating that you should ignore what the medical experts and media are telling you and go and buy masks and start wearing them. Remember?
I was right.
Then a few months later I stated that there was a very good chance that there would be a vaccine ready by the end of 2020 because a tremendous amount of resources were being poured into this spanning multiple research efforts across the globe. I don't recall many other people stating that. And guess what?
I was right.
We can speculate that in perhaps eight or ten months from now, the WHO will issue a release stating that if you have had your two shots and you have immunity there is no need to wear a mask because you can't transmit the virus to anyone because your immune system keeps the virus at near-zero levels.
If that does transpire in the future, that will be the third time that I was right.
Dare to shine.
Please end this discussion. It has been going on for days now, and it is growing into a campaign. There are different opinions on the subject. End of story.
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TheflyingDutchman
In a small country like Holland it's almost impossible to control the movements of ca 17.000.000 people.People want to move, stay in touch physically etc. We cannot suppress basic instincts unless you put every single person in a prison cell. The only way out is a vaccin for almost everyone. Until then the amount of Covid infections will increase despite all the measurements taken by the authorities to keep it in control at best.
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TheflyingDutchman
In a small country like Holland it's almost impossible to control the movements of ca 17.000.000 people.People want to move, stay in touch physically etc. We cannot suppress basic instincts unless you put every single person in a prison cell. The only way out is a vaccin for almost everyone. Until then the amount of Covid infections will increase despite all the measurements taken by the authorities to keep it in control at best.
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georgie48Quote
TheflyingDutchman
In a small country like Holland it's almost impossible to control the movements of ca 17.000.000 people.People want to move, stay in touch physically etc. We cannot suppress basic instincts unless you put every single person in a prison cell. The only way out is a vaccin for almost everyone. Until then the amount of Covid infections will increase despite all the measurements taken by the authorities to keep it in control at best.
Originally pubs, restaurants, etc. were told that they would be fines with 4500€ if they ignores the lockdown. Several, in particular, pubs were fined and it worked! But over times checking went sloppy so people give it a try again. Heavy fines work, but only if you apply them on a large scale. Party organizers (in whatever way) should be fined 10.000€ or more. It will work. "We" greedy Dutch are only sensitive when money becomes involved
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georgie48Quote
TheflyingDutchman
In a small country like Holland it's almost impossible to control the movements of ca 17.000.000 people.People want to move, stay in touch physically etc. We cannot suppress basic instincts unless you put every single person in a prison cell. The only way out is a vaccin for almost everyone. Until then the amount of Covid infections will increase despite all the measurements taken by the authorities to keep it in control at best.
Originally pubs, restaurants, etc. were told that they would be fines with 4500€ if they ignores the lockdown. Several, in particular, pubs were fined and it worked! But over times checking went sloppy so people give it a try again. Heavy fines work, but only if you apply them on a large scale. Party organizers (in whatever way) should be fined 10.000€ or more. It will work. "We" greedy Dutch are only sensitive when money becomes involved
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bv
Vietnam is a country of 96 million people, i.e. roughly 1/3 of the population in USA. Still, they have just 35 deaths from covid-19, the last death back in early September. Selective lock down and test trace makes it easier to keep the country and economy healthy. Also, keeping politics away from the pandemic works helps a lot.
Oh my. How profound & prophetic. You must be a Mensa!Quote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
Cognitive issues... we all shine on, sure, but some a lot less than others.
La la la la lah lah lah lahhhhhh.
Well let's see...
In the beginning of the pandemic I made multiple postings stating that you should ignore what the medical experts and media are telling you and go and buy masks and start wearing them. Remember?
I was right.
Then a few months later I stated that there was a very good chance that there would be a vaccine ready by the end of 2020 because a tremendous amount of resources were being poured into this spanning multiple research efforts across the globe. I don't recall many other people stating that. And guess what?
I was right.
We can speculate that in perhaps eight or ten months from now, the WHO will issue a release stating that if you have had your two shots and you have immunity there is no need to wear a mask because you can't transmit the virus to anyone because your immune system keeps the virus at near-zero levels.
If that does transpire in the future, that will be the third time that I was right.
Dare to shine.
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bv
Many countries with one party systems are doing great related to the pandemic, avoiding many deaths and infections. Then still, Australia, New Zealand, Japan have more than one party, they are doing great too. Norway have more than ten parties, still we are doing better than countries with two party systems. Same with the other Nordic countries. I think it is more to this than politics.
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GasLightStreetQuote
georgie48Quote
TheflyingDutchman
In a small country like Holland it's almost impossible to control the movements of ca 17.000.000 people.People want to move, stay in touch physically etc. We cannot suppress basic instincts unless you put every single person in a prison cell. The only way out is a vaccin for almost everyone. Until then the amount of Covid infections will increase despite all the measurements taken by the authorities to keep it in control at best.
Originally pubs, restaurants, etc. were told that they would be fines with 4500€ if they ignores the lockdown. Several, in particular, pubs were fined and it worked! But over times checking went sloppy so people give it a try again. Heavy fines work, but only if you apply them on a large scale. Party organizers (in whatever way) should be fined 10.000€ or more. It will work. "We" greedy Dutch are only sensitive when money becomes involved
In the US there's this gargantuan misplaced loud fake fear about "socialism" destroying the country (espoused by the same troglodytes that rage about guns and "we the people", which has nothing to do with anything today) - even though it is a capitalist socialist country - apparently health is a no no but subsidized airplane tickets, "freeways", gas mileage reducing ethanol courtesy of corn and the greatest one of all possibly, cheap bananas, are way more important. In a few more years that generation will have been misplaced due to bad health and death enough to shut the @#$%& up permanently.