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SomeTorontoGirl
[www.theguardian.com]


To exhausted healthcare workers like me, Covid conspiracies are a kick in the teeth
Jeeves Wijesuriya

We are nearly a year into the pandemic, yet widespread denial of the pathogen and the crisis still persists. The hard objective truths are undeniable: millions infected globally, hundreds of thousands dead and a lightning-quick scientific breakthrough with vaccines now beginning to be rolled out around the world.

For most healthcare workers, life is split into two: the outward reality we share with our family and friends (the Instagram fodder of home-cooked meals and time with loved ones), and the peculiar and often traumatic inner world of working in healthcare, where supposedly once-in-a-lifetime events such as births, deaths and life-changing illness occur daily.

Right now, this second world feels darker, more chaotic and uncertain. Covid is ripping through hospitals at an unprecedented rate, while an exhausted workforce, already running on fumes not from “just another winter surge”, but due to a second wave of Covid cases worse than the first, attempts to battle it. For us, the objective truth is undeniable: patients are desperately sick. Patients who often decline quickly and suddenly, needing intensive care, ventilation and specialist support.

And yet in the outer world, our social media and even newspapers amplify a different “truth”. That there is no major emergency, that it’s misdiagnosis or global hysteria, which every major country, and their established academic and medical bodies, has inexplicably and simultaneously fallen prey to. Perhaps it was too much to ask that the brief period of trusting and listening to experts during the early days of the first spike might last through the winter.

These two worlds are difficult for healthcare workers to reconcile. We go to work on packed trains, rammed with maskless faces, only to arrive at hospital to treat the consequences of this lack of responsibility. We come home from wards filled with patients, faces sore from hours of wearing PPE in high-risk environments, to tweets from Covid deniers and internet trolls saying they “walked around a hospital and it wasn’t that busy anyway”. To actually do this would be idiocy, not to mention impossible – an evening sojourn would not allow access to the areas of intensive clinical care where patients with the infection are being treated.

It is perhaps worth exploring a few more of these Covid myths, so that we can enjoy catharsis, if not put the issue to bed.

“Patients are dying ‘with’ Covid, not ‘of’ it.” The death certificate data from the Office for National Statistics, which provides us with the most reliable figures on Covid deaths, records causation. But even more obvious is what a patient with Covid pneumonia looks like clinically. They have very low oxygen levels, a dense white shadow in both lungs on their X-rays, a particular pattern of low platelets and specific white blood cells, and very high marker of clotting called D-Dimer. This is a clinical pattern doctors all over the world have seen time and time again. Trust us, they are dying of this disease.

Another bizarre claim is that our hospitals are empty. This despite several trusts now recording major incidents as they risk being overwhelmed, and the national database showing England and Wales has more Covid patients admitted than at the spring peak, and climbing.

And, the worst myth of all: “Covid only kills the infirm and the elderly.” While age is a significant factor, we are routinely seeing patients in their 30s and 40s on ICU. Data from Scotland shows the average age of admitted ICU patients is 61, and more than 85% were living completely independent lives before they were sick. It could be any of us, or someone close to us.

“My GP is still closed, so I have to go to hospital.” Your GP’s office is open. It has had to adapt to an airborne virus to protect you and its staff, but it remains open. They may triage you over the phone. If you need to be seen and examined they will organise this.

Government delay has exacerbated the NHS Covid crisis. We need a lockdown now
Claudia Paoloni
Read more
Perhaps most confusingly: “It’s just like every winter for the NHS.” Firstly, winter in this country for the health service is no garden of delights. It is an ever-worsening pandemonium resulting from an underfunded, understaffed and under-resourced health service grinding on, fuelled by the goodwill of its workers. That being said, now that we face a virus that can cause such rapid deterioration on top of our annual cataclysm, and can so utterly overwhelm intensive care departments, we are indeed facing an altogether worse proposition. On Wednesday alone, 981 people died of Covid.

The virus has returned in full and terrifying force. But public goodwill seems not to have done so to the same degree as in spring. The attacks from Covid deniers are a kick in the teeth. Their claims cause outrage among staff exhausted by shifts, only to have their lived experience, their sacrifice and their suffering, and the suffering of the patients in front of them, denied.

In our role as trustees of the Healthcare Workers’ Foundation we are doing all we can to support the welfare and wellbeing of staff through counselling and PPE support where we can. Where we can’t, we support their bereaved families with respite and practical and educational support for their children. We see the impact on healthcare workers not just of the virus but of myths like those above. No one is immune: by August 620 health and social care workers had died from Covid-19. All left families and loved ones behind.

This pandemic is gruelling. The measures to control it impinge on our quality of life, hurt our freedoms, undermine our rights. But to demand rights and deny responsibilities isn’t rebellion, it’s adolescence. The inner world of medics is fast becoming a war zone. And once again it is hidden from public view, except for those unlucky enough to find themselves on the inside, as patients. For those sceptics demanding to see this world with their own eyes, I hope your demands are never met for your own sake.

Jeeves Wijesuriya is a junior doctor working at a London hospital and a member of the Healthcare Workers’ Foundation

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tioms
In Belgium it is free to have or not to have a vaccine.

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DandelionPowderman

<And people who did a vaccine can always take it over to others>

Not if you take the vaccine

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Irix

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DandelionPowderman



Not if you take the vaccine

It's not really clear yet if a transmission is still possible after vaccination. But what's clear is that the vaccine can protect from severe courses of the disease - [iorr.org] .

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MileHigh

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GasLightStreet

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MileHigh

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GasLightStreet

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MileHigh
Haven't you grown up all your life with the understanding that a vaccine gives you long-term or possibly life-long immunity to a virus? Haven't you grown up with the understanding that the widespread usage of a vaccine will essentially eliminate a virus?

If the answers are "yes" and "yes" why would you assume that it is not the case for this virus? You know how they say that as you get older your immune system accumulates a series of specific preexisting antibodies that can be called upon to replicate and then kill an already-seen virus if needed? I am not a medical expert but I can apply my knowledge and common sense to conclude that this virus will almost certainly not be fundamentally different from other viruses with respect to communicability and immunization.

In that sense my BS filter is on and when you say this, "There are a lot of people who think the vaccine makes it go away, that everyone will be immune, which of course is not true" to me it sounds like you are just one more node in a swarm of individual fake news bots.

I am just trusting my gut instinct for me.

You're BS filter is full of BS. Your gut instinct is chewing on a big fake steak from Fox News.

I'm not assuming anything with SARS-CoV-2, you are. Plus the fact that people that get the vaccine can still transmit it, which you seem to think is not real. You are assuming.

You're assuming that the mythical human herd immunity can happen, which is ridiculous. It's not gonna happen. Too many people will not get it - because they're chemtrailers or flat earthers or... they live in places where it's not going to be available.

You're just one big well rounded assumer.

If you get a vaccine and think you can go without a mask you're continuing the spread. If you choose to not get that then by all means be a spreader.

Was your BS filter on when they said to not use masks for two or more months at the beginning of the pandemic? Mine was on.

And more recently my BS filter is on for what is seemingly an opposite form of rhetoric that is taking place right now. Now they are saying you need a mask even if you have had both shots plus x number of weeks, right? Now they are saying that you can still pass on the virus when you have immunity, even though presumably your "army of antibodies" is defending your system and killing off the virus in short order. My BS filter is on for that.

Yes, you are correct, you need to get a generic flu shot each year because the flu virus is in constant flux. Even the annual flu shot is "out of date" with respect to the current status of the spectrum of flu viruses when it is released. With respect to Covid-19, we are currently aware of a single main variant and they are telling us that the current vaccines will also work with this variant. To me it sounds like we still don't have enough information to conclude that the Covid virus is going to be a continuous moving target like the flue virus. But apparently you have already decided and/or the media have decided that this is going to be the case. So you are assuming one thing for this example and I am assuming another thing.

I've been wearing a mask once I understood what was going on. I didn't follow the seesaw and lies from "politicians" and their little friends.

Your BS filter - you just called it "covid virus" and you're attempting to say that I'm being manipulated by the media in thinking that because there's a vaccine we need to still mask up?

Go play golf. I hear it's a good thing to do when you don't know what you're talking about.

So is my "covid virus" nomenclature is not technically correct as per the agreed-upon standards? Did you understand what I was referring to? Does my mistake destroy my credibility like you are implying or is that just another fake news bot spin zone that you are in?

No, I said that if you take both shots of the vaccine and you add the buffer time then you don't need to mask up. The rational reason is that you have immunity and will destroy the virus when it enters your system. You won't be a carrier of the virus and you will have immunity, hence no need to mask up. Isn't that the way it worked in the past? What's different now?

<<< it's a good thing to do when you don't know what you're talking about >>>

That's what I would call a fake news bot node in action. If you actually put forth an argument about what I am supposedly wrong about then what you're saying could have credibility and it could be right. Note that I recited a lot of basic facts about viruses that I probably learned in my high school biology class. It's just like saying that the US totally screwed up it's response to Covid-19 without backing it up with any kind of argument.

This is what we are losing in this day and age, a rational and reasoned approach to issues. Look at both sides of the argument and don't magically "forget" about what we know from the past. This whole branch of medical science started with Louis Pasteur in the mid 19th century.

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Koen
Even vaccinated, you can still get it and spread it. Only the symptoms will be mild.

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GasLightStreet

What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.

I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.

Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.

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MileHigh

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GasLightStreet

What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.

I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.

Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.

Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

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Beast

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MileHigh

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GasLightStreet

What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.

I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.

Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.

Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?

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MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

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MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

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Koen

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MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

[www.cdc.gov]

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MileHigh

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Beast

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MileHigh

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GasLightStreet

What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.

I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.

Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.

Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?

That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.

We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.

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MileHigh

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Koen

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MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

[www.cdc.gov]

Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.

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MileHigh

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Beast

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MileHigh

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GasLightStreet

What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.

I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.

Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.

Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?

That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.

We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.

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bv

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MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

First question:

Here’s Why Vaccinated People Still Need to Wear a Mask (New York Times)

The new Covid-19 vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna seem to be remarkably good at preventing serious illness. But it’s unclear how well they will curb the spread of the coronavirus.

That’s because the Pfizer and Moderna trials tracked only how many vaccinated people became sick with Covid-19. That leaves open the possibility that some vaccinated people get infected without developing symptoms, and could then silently transmit the virus — especially if they come in close contact with others or stop wearing masks.

Second question:

Special Issue "Pathogenesis of Human and Animal Coronaviruses" (MDPI)

Coronaviruses are pathogens of humans and animals of agricultural and veterinary importance. Prior to 2003, a number of coronaviruses were known to cause severe diseases in animals, whilst human coronaviruses were typically associated with mild respiratory illnesses. This changed with the zoonotic transmission of the potentially fatal severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV; in 2003) and Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV; in 2012) to humans. Moreover, the emergence of swine acute diarrhoea syndrome coronavirus (SADS-CoV; in 2016) and currently, a novel human coronavirus (2019-nCoV) in China, that has resulted in fatalities, highlights the risks of highly pathogenic coronaviruses to human and animal health. Coronavirus pathogenesis is understudied, but must be comprehensively understood if coronavirus infections are to be prevented and managed.

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daspyknows

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MileHigh

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Beast

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MileHigh

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GasLightStreet

What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.

I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.

Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.

Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?

That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.

We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.

Wow. Just to be clear here I will list a series of viruses that affect humans. Can you confirm they behave the same way?

Covid-19
Influenza (lots of different versions of influenza)
Chicken Pox
Polio
Measles
HIV
Syphilis
HPV
Anthrax
Hepatitis (A, B and C)
Rabies
Ebola
Dengue Fever
Endogenous retroviruses

These are all viruses, some deadly some not, some easily transmissible, some not, Some curable permanently, some curable temporarily and some incurable.

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georgie48

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MileHigh

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Beast

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MileHigh

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GasLightStreet

What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.

I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.

Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.

Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?

That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.

We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.

You can still smell? Great! But I am very concerned about your IQ.
You believe too much and rational thinking appears to be no part of your limited dictionary. You're entitled to have an opinion, even if it's worth nothing. Covid-19 is a virus, yes! Pb is a chemical, yes. Seawater is water, yes. A horse is an animal, yes. When your bell still doesn't ring, it's either not there or needs serious polishing. Reading reports and articles and make the content fit your way of thinking, well what to say? The mechanism for the Covid-19 is essentially the same as that of other viruses" = "the mechanism of a bycicle is essentially the same as that of a car". Does it matter that one uses human horsepower and the other uses gasoline (or electricity these days)? And that one takes you from A to B in a hour, where the other takes 7 minutes?
I would suggest: read your articles properly (meaning: analyse them (it requires intelligence) in detail) and maybe then your opinion will make sense one day.

Sorry, GLS it was my turn this time.

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MileHigh
By definition when you are vaccinated you don't get infected.

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slewan

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daspyknows

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MileHigh

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Beast

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MileHigh

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GasLightStreet

What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.

I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.

Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.

Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?

That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.

We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.

Wow. Just to be clear here I will list a series of viruses that affect humans. Can you confirm they behave the same way?

Covid-19
Influenza (lots of different versions of influenza)
Chicken Pox
Polio
Measles
HIV
Syphilis
HPV
Anthrax
Hepatitis (A, B and C)
Rabies
Ebola
Dengue Fever
Endogenous retroviruses

These are all viruses, some deadly some not, some easily transmissible, some not, Some curable permanently, some curable temporarily and some incurable.

You have forgotten the virus causing smallpox, which was eradicated through successful vaccination campaigns around the world by the late 70's / early 80's.
Which shows that it's possible to eradicate a virus!

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MileHigh

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georgie48

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MileHigh

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Beast

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MileHigh

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GasLightStreet

What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.

I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.

Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.

Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?

That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.

We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.

You can still smell? Great! But I am very concerned about your IQ.
You believe too much and rational thinking appears to be no part of your limited dictionary. You're entitled to have an opinion, even if it's worth nothing. Covid-19 is a virus, yes! Pb is a chemical, yes. Seawater is water, yes. A horse is an animal, yes. When your bell still doesn't ring, it's either not there or needs serious polishing. Reading reports and articles and make the content fit your way of thinking, well what to say? The mechanism for the Covid-19 is essentially the same as that of other viruses" = "the mechanism of a bycicle is essentially the same as that of a car". Does it matter that one uses human horsepower and the other uses gasoline (or electricity these days)? And that one takes you from A to B in a hour, where the other takes 7 minutes?
I would suggest: read your articles properly (meaning: analyse them (it requires intelligence) in detail) and maybe then your opinion will make sense one day.

Sorry, GLS it was my turn this time.

That's just a bunch of useless ad hom attacks that don't contribute to the discussion at all.

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bv

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MileHigh

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Koen

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MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

[www.cdc.gov]

Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.

What is your question really? Please explain.

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MileHigh

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Koen

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MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

[www.cdc.gov]

Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.

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MileHigh

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bv

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MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.

Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.

First question:

Here’s Why Vaccinated People Still Need to Wear a Mask (New York Times)

The new Covid-19 vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna seem to be remarkably good at preventing serious illness. But it’s unclear how well they will curb the spread of the coronavirus.

That’s because the Pfizer and Moderna trials tracked only how many vaccinated people became sick with Covid-19. That leaves open the possibility that some vaccinated people get infected without developing symptoms, and could then silently transmit the virus — especially if they come in close contact with others or stop wearing masks.

Second question:

Special Issue "Pathogenesis of Human and Animal Coronaviruses" (MDPI)

Coronaviruses are pathogens of humans and animals of agricultural and veterinary importance. Prior to 2003, a number of coronaviruses were known to cause severe diseases in animals, whilst human coronaviruses were typically associated with mild respiratory illnesses. This changed with the zoonotic transmission of the potentially fatal severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV; in 2003) and Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV; in 2012) to humans. Moreover, the emergence of swine acute diarrhoea syndrome coronavirus (SADS-CoV; in 2016) and currently, a novel human coronavirus (2019-nCoV) in China, that has resulted in fatalities, highlights the risks of highly pathogenic coronaviruses to human and animal health. Coronavirus pathogenesis is understudied, but must be comprehensively understood if coronavirus infections are to be prevented and managed.

<<< That’s because the Pfizer and Moderna trials tracked only how many vaccinated people became sick with Covid-19. That leaves open the possibility that some vaccinated people get infected without developing symptoms, and could then silently transmit the virus >>>

This is speculation without any data backing it up. Yes, you can err on the side of caution, but there are limits to that. Right now, there is no rational reason to assume that if you are vaccinated and have immunity that you are still a carrier of the virus. What we know about the immune system is that once you have the antibodies, then they destroy the virus in your system. This line, "That leaves open the possibility that some vaccinated people get infected without developing symptoms" is a ridiculous stretch of logic with nothing to back it up, in my opinion. By definition when you are vaccinated you don't get infected.

<<< highlights the risks of highly pathogenic coronaviruses to human and animal health. >>>

Yes indeed getting a mammalian virus from a different animal can affect the human mammal. There is direct evidence for that. But your reference says nothing about this fact making our understanding of how viruses operate not being applicable anymore when they come from a different animal. You are manufacturing a conclusion out of thin air. That is not being scientific.

There is this sense of a popular inertia in the media that says, "We have to make wild speculations that anything is possible to cover all of our bases and then give health directives based on these wild speculations." And what I am suggesting is that some of you are blindly repeating it without applying your critical thinking skills.

I am just not buying it. My feeling is that when a substantial majority of the population is vaccinated and immune, that people aren't going to tolerate being told to continue wearing masks for reasons I have already stated.

Take the example of rabies. That is a dog-to-human transmission of a very dangerous virus. People get a rabies shot when they are bitten by a strange dog. Have you ever heard someone say that you still might be a rabies carrier after you get your shot? This may not be directly applicable, rather it's just to show that there are no wild speculations with respect to rabies.