Tell Me :
Talk
You are funny Hairball, you say you don't like this track but then you can't understand why Keith might have rejected it
Isn't Keith allowed to think this is unsuitable for probably the Stones last album. I doesn't surprise me one bit that Keith doesn't want this material on a Stones album.
I mean if you don't like it Hairball that's cool, you don't have to be apologetic about it, i think England Lost is the biggest pile of crap that a Stone has ever produced but i'm not apologizing to anyone.
"Long walks and fast drives
And wild clubs and low dives
I pushed and I strive."
also it is HOW he is singing on these tracks-
example, earnestly and annunciation emphatically 'and I pushed and I strive"
Edit lyric 'low dives' I wrote 'love dives'.
Edit again! 'Strive' not 'Strived'.
"Inimitable Mick Jagger" indeed
Wait, Push and Strive. Not past tense. Yeah, still pushing and striving.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-30 22:43 by 35love.
Once again, when or where have I ever said I don't like this track? It's as if you're putting words in my mouth. If you're referring to me giving it a generous 2 of 5 stars, that doesn't mean I absolutely don't like it. If you can find one quote from me where I say "I don't like it", I will eat my words, but even if I did say something along those lines doesn't mean my opinion can't change.
To revisit the evolution of my experience listening to it:
First impression: Pleasantly surprised. Micks's vocals are good, lyrics not so much.
After several listens: I don't think it has staying power or much to say, and can't imagine listening for an entire summer and beyond as I did with Crosseyed Heart.
After multiple listens: I like it better than anything from Mick's entire solo career - which might not be saying much - but it is a positive.
Today: Something catchy about the groove. Would like to hear a heavy reggae style dub version - stripped down to bass and drums with some echo and reverb.
Will I buy it? Now that someone has mentioned the higher quality of the vinyl, I might splurge...if nothing else then it will add to my massive vinyl collection.
This is a brand new Stones related tune that evidently takes some time to grow - it's barely 3 or 4 days old, and will take more time to digest and absorb. It isn't the best Stones related thing I've ever heard, but definitely far from the worst, and I haven't completely written it off as something I don't like. In fact, I'll raise the initial star level from 2 of 5 to a very generous 2.5 out of 5 stars right now! And this might be a shocker to some, but I actually admire this effort from Mick much more than I did Blue and Lonesome and it's average covers. There seems to be a lot more creativity and thought into it vs. spewing out blues covers that never came close to the quality of the original versions imo.
But the main point I was making was in wondering why Keith may have rejected it (if that is even true), and really had nothing to do with my thoughts about it.
Again, It's really not any worse than some of what was on ABB that had Keith's full cooperation, so don't know why he would veto this.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Seriously, you're bringing Exile into this, is nothing sacred these days
I don't think so
No worries stone4ever - yes things can get confusing amidst new releases and the process of digesting, appreciating, and critiquing.
And thanks for taking the time to find that, but...I never said with absolute certainty I didn't like it.
It was said in the early stages of absorbing a new tune that I was unsure of...mixed emotions if you will, and as mentioned opinions can evolve during the "growing" process.
Trust me, if really I don't like something I am not afraid or ashamed to exclaim it loud and clear while standing on the highest mountain with a megaphone for the world to hear.
That said, I stand by the thought that they still sound like outtakes and/or B-sides from the years past quickly cobbled together...works in progress that are missing certain elements. Can't pin it down, but there's something generic and/or familiar to these, but that's not to say I absolutely don't like it (Getta Grip that is).
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-30 23:01 by Hairball.
Could they have been part of Micks 40 demos written solely by himself, then presented to and rejected by Keith, which in turn led Mick to bring in Clifford to help finish them off?
Or could they have been songs that Mick says he writes - "some for the Stones, some not" (to paraphrase) - that wouldn't fit in with the Stones, in which he never presented to the Stones/Keith in the first place?
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Yeah its a strange one, i've gone from liking it initially, to then loving it and now i'm bored with it lol
I suppose normally we get a whole album to digest and the songs gradually grow on us ( or not ). But these two recordings are suffering from overkill now.
I'm going to put it down for a rest now and move onto other things.
Thanks for taking the time to explain yourself hairball.
If the two songs and their treatment are representative for a direction of a number of Mick Jagger songs, I for one will say my preference now is that there will follow a studio album in that vein from Mick Jagger and His Mates (as named in the quote). Postpone ambitions for a Rolling Stones studio album for a later time, if there is any future. Then Keith Richards may use his time for a CROSSEYED HEART vol 2. The first alternative I will look forward to with much interest and passion. The second alternative I promise that I will compel myself to listen to at least 10 times, hopefully 25 times, even if it will be boring.
Yes there is the fear of overkill.
I mentioned in the U2 thread that there is a recent song of theirs - Santa Barbara - which gets played on the radio a daily basis in my area (30 miles south of Santa Barbara). I really can't stand anything U2 had released for years now including that song, but when you're force fed a tune you begin to like certain aspects of it - I think you mentioned brainwashing earlier. I defnitely don't love the tune, but won't rush to change the station. The problem is, once you begin to like something of this nature, the overkill becomes a problem and you're already becoming sick of it. I'm still in the upward trajectory of getting an appreciation for Getta Grip pacing myself in intervals, but I fear the moment it truly sinks in I'll be completely over and done with it. Certain things can't be forced, and when a song is mediocre at best I dont think it can ever be considered or be elevated to greatness - at least for me. As you say, it doesn't help that there's not an entire album to digest, but when all is said and done my final verdict will probably be not too shabby thanks Mick - next. Hopefully original Stones album and/or something solo from Keith.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Well let's look at that for a minute. Ronnie Wood had ten co-writing credits with the Stones from 1978-1986. Finally, in 2011, they re-recorded much of "When You're Gone" which earned Ronnie his first co-writing credit on a Stones song in 25 years. Steve Jordan has two co-writing credits on Stones songs (in 1989 and 2012, respectively). Chuck Leavell had a co-writing credit in 1986. Pierre de Beauport received a co-writing credit in 1997. As for Matt Clifford, he shared an arrangement credit with Mick for "Continental Drift" in 1989 and has had pre-production and co-producer credits with The Stones in more recent times. Considering the number of co-writing credits he's had with Mick outside the Stones over the last 16 years, it's not unprecedented to think a Jagger/Richards/Clifford credit is possible.
The polite answer is he's a keyboard player who Mick stole from a Yes-offshoot in 1989 to play keyboards and help Bernard Fowler arrange backing vocals during the STEEL WHEELS sessions. He was part of the album from pre-production through the bitter end and played keyboards alongside Chuck on the STEEL WHEELS and URBAN JUNGLE tours.
Matt then arranged the strings for "Angel in My Heart" on WANDERING SPIRIT and the orchestral version of "Angie" Mick sang on THE SYMPHONIC MUSIC OF THE ROLLING STONES. He also played piano on the lounge number Mick sang in the film, BENT.
In the current century, Matt arranged and co-produced most of GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY, playing keyboards and singing back-up on nearly every song and even co-writing most of the album. He handled pre-production on three of the FOUR NEW LICKS in 2002 and co-produced and handled pre-production on "Streets of Love" and "Rain Fall Down" on A BIGGER BANG.
In the current decade, Matt has assisted Mick in completing tracks for reissues of EXILE and SOME GIRLS and took part in overdubbing new bits to new/old songs. He returned to touring with the Stones in a limited capacity (just "You Can't Always Get What You Want") in 2012, but over the last few years is now back sharing keyboard duties full-time alongside Chuck.
In a controversial move, it was Matt and not Chuck who cut BLUE AND LONESOME with the band although Chuck was later able to overdub a bit. Mick and Ronnie took part in Matt's "Save the Children" charity single (which Matt wrote) and he co-wrote "Drive of Shame" with Mick and Brad Paisley.
Most painful to me, it was Matt who joined Mick and Charlie for the Monty Python sketch for their farewell shows a few years ago.
Matt also regularly accompanies Mick to sporting events and is often captured in photos with Mick when the latter tries and fails to enjoy himself in public.
It is safe to say he is one of Mick's closest friends.
Anything else is just asking for trouble.
Almost Hear You Sigh is an outtake from the Talk Is Cheap sessions, and One More Shot is also an outtake from solo sessions. If it hadn't been included on Grrr!, it might have wound up on Crosseyed Heart instead.
You can be assured that Chuck Leavell will never have another writing credit. What makes me say that? Because if there's one thing the world doesn't need, it's another Back To Zero.
For Clifford to have a co-arrangement credit on Continental Drift, this means he had musical input -- but arranging is not the same as songwriting.
Regarding Almost Hear You Sigh, judging from the early version with Keith on vocals, it's obvious that Mick made lyrical contributions to finish the song, so he certainly should have a co-credit there.
But there's something like Saint Of Me, which is obviously a Mick solo demo that he brought in, and which Keith doesn't even play on, and yet it's released as Jagger/Richards.
So that's the sort of thing that makes me think a Clifford co-writing credit on a Stones album track release, though possible, is unlikely. Think of how Ronnie must feel about such a thing, when he's got all these songs he's written as well.
Interesting, though, that he has Ronnie and Charlie playing on these songs -- which is never done for any of Mick's other solo releases. Makes me wonder if these are just outtakes from Stones sessions where Keith wasn't present.
The thing that makes me think these might actually be outtakes from recent scattered Stones recording sessions is the surprising fact that Ronnie and Charlie are playing on these, which is never done for solo recordings that Mick releases.
Think of other Stones albums where you have tracks featuring only one Stones guitarist and the Stones drummer with Keith absent. Shine A Light, a Sticky Fingers outtake, and two songs from Bridges To Babylon, Anybody Seen My Baby and Saint Of Me. Yet despite Keith's lack of involvement in the songwriting and his absence from the studio when these were being recorded, these still went out as Jagger/Richards.
It could be that Keith wanted to distance himself from the political message, didn't want his name associated with what was being said, and objected to associating the Stones with such subject matter.
Someday we'll find out the truth behind the scenes, many years from now, but for the moment all we can do is speculate.
which is never done for solo recordings that Mick releases.
How do you know, FFS??
We dont know everything, although we might think we do. Time will tell, in maybe 20 years.
Or we might never know.
Jeroen
I didn't claim to "know" anything -- didn't you read the last line of my post you were replying to?
Pardon me for thinking out loud on a message board, for Corriecas' sake.
Exactly.
haha lol oh i get it now
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Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: July 30, 2017 21:35
Quote
HairballQuote
Rocky Dijon
So the tracks are copyrighted by Promotone rather than Jagged Recordings and feature Mick with Ronnie and Charlie. I guess these are Stones songs that Keith refused to be part of and so they aren't Jagger/Richards or released as The Rolling Stones. In this sense, it is a debut solo single. Three quarters of the band working under the name "Mick Jagger."
Hard to imagine this is Charlie on drums Getta Grip as it sounds quite rudimentary and robotic - like a drum machine, but I suppose it could be? Maybe he played an initial simple beat during a session, and then it was fed through a loop. I'm no wiz at this type of overproduction process, so am genuinely curious. As for the guitar, I suppose it could be Ronnie as he has no absolute signature sound (up to this point, nobody would have guessed this was Ronnie), and even if he did have a recognizable style and sound the overproduction on these new tunes would have made it unrecognizable. Someone mentioned the guitar riff on Michael Jackson's Black and White which is basically a simplified Keith style riff...could Ronnie be channeling Michael Jackson c. early '90's? There's even some hints of the Jackson/Jagger collab. State of Shock c. early '80s, and maybe that's why this sounds a bit old hat? Or is it Ronnie playing the simplistic lead parts? Hard to say, as the rhythm and the leads sound like it could be anyone who has some basic skills on the guitar. I thought it was Mick playing rhythm!
As for Keith refusing to have his name attached with these, hard to understand why...maybe it's partially due to his disdain of anything too contemporary and/or maybe he disagreed with Mick on the lyrical content? Or maybe he just didn't like the song period? It's really not any worse than some of what was on ABB. so can't understand his refusal if this is true. As for the lesser of the two England Lost, Keith probably wanted nothing to do with the rap element of the tune, which would be odd because Mick is basically rap/singing - in other words it doesn't sound like Eminem, Snoop Dog, or any other well known rapper - it sounds like Mick being funky. But then there's the other version with Skepta who truly raps. Would be interesting to hear what either Mick or Keith have to say in regards to Keith not participating and set the record straight. Will Keith bash it as he is known to do? Or will he take the high road and give Mick his blessings.
Have to say while listening to Getta Grip this very minute there's something catchy about the groove of this tune...would be cool to have an instrumental and/or heavy dub version reggae style with full blown reverb, echo, etc.
The remixes that are available don't really alter the official version as much as they could have, but nice to have multiple choices anyways for a song like this.
You are funny Hairball, you say you don't like this track but then you can't understand why Keith might have rejected it
Isn't Keith allowed to think this is unsuitable for probably the Stones last album. I doesn't surprise me one bit that Keith doesn't want this material on a Stones album.
I mean if you don't like it Hairball that's cool, you don't have to be apologetic about it, i think England Lost is the biggest pile of crap that a Stone has ever produced but i'm not apologizing to anyone.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: July 30, 2017 21:45
Ronnie is definitely playing the simplistic lead parts and Mick is playing the I-V chords.
Ronnie has a signature sound and style, of course, but it would be hard to recognise anyone's sound and style in this muddy mess.
Ronnie has a signature sound and style, of course, but it would be hard to recognise anyone's sound and style in this muddy mess.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: July 30, 2017 21:59
Quote
Stoneage
I don't care about the music anymore but the lyrics are interesting. Political but vague in a typical Jagger fashion. But a little less vague than usual. In fact, these days I'm more interested what Jagger has to say about the times passing than the music. He is 74 years old now. Time to grow up. His days, like ours, are numbered.
"Long walks and fast drives
And wild clubs and low dives
I pushed and I strive."
also it is HOW he is singing on these tracks-
example, earnestly and annunciation emphatically 'and I pushed and I strive"
Edit lyric 'low dives' I wrote 'love dives'.
Edit again! 'Strive' not 'Strived'.
"Inimitable Mick Jagger" indeed
Wait, Push and Strive. Not past tense. Yeah, still pushing and striving.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-30 22:43 by 35love.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
peoplewitheyes
()
Date: July 30, 2017 22:09
'but it would be hard to recognise anyone's sound and style in this muddy mess.' - didn't they say that about Exile?!
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: July 30, 2017 22:10
Quote
stone4everQuote
HairballQuote
Rocky Dijon
So the tracks are copyrighted by Promotone rather than Jagged Recordings and feature Mick with Ronnie and Charlie. I guess these are Stones songs that Keith refused to be part of and so they aren't Jagger/Richards or released as The Rolling Stones. In this sense, it is a debut solo single. Three quarters of the band working under the name "Mick Jagger."
Hard to imagine this is Charlie on drums Getta Grip as it sounds quite rudimentary and robotic - like a drum machine, but I suppose it could be? Maybe he played an initial simple beat during a session, and then it was fed through a loop. I'm no wiz at this type of overproduction process, so am genuinely curious. As for the guitar, I suppose it could be Ronnie as he has no absolute signature sound (up to this point, nobody would have guessed this was Ronnie), and even if he did have a recognizable style and sound the overproduction on these new tunes would have made it unrecognizable. Someone mentioned the guitar riff on Michael Jackson's Black and White which is basically a simplified Keith style riff...could Ronnie be channeling Michael Jackson c. early '90's? There's even some hints of the Jackson/Jagger collab. State of Shock c. early '80s, and maybe that's why this sounds a bit old hat? Or is it Ronnie playing the simplistic lead parts? Hard to say, as the rhythm and the leads sound like it could be anyone who has some basic skills on the guitar. I thought it was Mick playing rhythm!
As for Keith refusing to have his name attached with these, hard to understand why...maybe it's partially due to his disdain of anything too contemporary and/or maybe he disagreed with Mick on the lyrical content? Or maybe he just didn't like the song period? It's really not any worse than some of what was on ABB. so can't understand his refusal if this is true. As for the lesser of the two England Lost, Keith probably wanted nothing to do with the rap element of the tune, which would be odd because Mick is basically rap/singing - in other words it doesn't sound like Eminem, Snoop Dog, or any other well known rapper - it sounds like Mick being funky. But then there's the other version with Skepta who truly raps. Would be interesting to hear what either Mick or Keith have to say in regards to Keith not participating and set the record straight. Will Keith bash it as he is known to do? Or will he take the high road and give Mick his blessings.
Have to say while listening to Getta Grip this very minute there's something catchy about the groove of this tune...would be cool to have an instrumental and/or heavy dub version reggae style with full blown reverb, echo, etc.
The remixes that are available don't really alter the official version as much as they could have, but nice to have multiple choices anyways for a song like this.
You are funny Hairball, you say you don't like this track but then you can't understand why Keith might have rejected it
Isn't Keith allowed to think this is unsuitable for probably the Stones last album. I doesn't surprise me one bit that Keith doesn't want this material on a Stones album.
I mean if you don't like it Hairball that's cool, you don't have to be apologetic about it, i think England Lost is the biggest pile of crap that a Stone has ever produced but i'm not apologizing to anyone.
Once again, when or where have I ever said I don't like this track? It's as if you're putting words in my mouth. If you're referring to me giving it a generous 2 of 5 stars, that doesn't mean I absolutely don't like it. If you can find one quote from me where I say "I don't like it", I will eat my words, but even if I did say something along those lines doesn't mean my opinion can't change.
To revisit the evolution of my experience listening to it:
First impression: Pleasantly surprised. Micks's vocals are good, lyrics not so much.
After several listens: I don't think it has staying power or much to say, and can't imagine listening for an entire summer and beyond as I did with Crosseyed Heart.
After multiple listens: I like it better than anything from Mick's entire solo career - which might not be saying much - but it is a positive.
Today: Something catchy about the groove. Would like to hear a heavy reggae style dub version - stripped down to bass and drums with some echo and reverb.
Will I buy it? Now that someone has mentioned the higher quality of the vinyl, I might splurge...if nothing else then it will add to my massive vinyl collection.
This is a brand new Stones related tune that evidently takes some time to grow - it's barely 3 or 4 days old, and will take more time to digest and absorb. It isn't the best Stones related thing I've ever heard, but definitely far from the worst, and I haven't completely written it off as something I don't like. In fact, I'll raise the initial star level from 2 of 5 to a very generous 2.5 out of 5 stars right now! And this might be a shocker to some, but I actually admire this effort from Mick much more than I did Blue and Lonesome and it's average covers. There seems to be a lot more creativity and thought into it vs. spewing out blues covers that never came close to the quality of the original versions imo.
But the main point I was making was in wondering why Keith may have rejected it (if that is even true), and really had nothing to do with my thoughts about it.
Again, It's really not any worse than some of what was on ABB that had Keith's full cooperation, so don't know why he would veto this.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: July 30, 2017 22:11
Quote
peoplewitheyes
'but it would be hard to recognise anyone's sound and style in this muddy mess.' - didn't they say that about Exile?!
Seriously, you're bringing Exile into this, is nothing sacred these days
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: July 30, 2017 22:25
Quote
peoplewitheyes
'but it would be hard to recognise anyone's sound and style in this muddy mess.' - didn't they say that about Exile?!
I don't think so
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: July 30, 2017 22:46
Hairball.
Once again, when or where have I ever said I don't like this track?
Someone posted
I'm glad that so many people seem to like these songs. As much as I love Mick, I'm sorry to say that I can't share this feeling. Anything on Crosseyed Heart sounds to me 1000 times better than either song. Hopefully I might change my mind with additional listenings, but that's my very humble opinion so far.
Hairball reply
I was trying to be positive earlier with first impressions, but I would agree withe the above. After a few more listens don't see that either of these new tunes (and their multiple remixes) will have any staying power. They really sound like outtakes and/or B-sides from the years past quickly cobbled together...works in progress that are missing certain elements. Not bad for a listen or two, but nothing that will keep me coming back...no deep meaning...no nuances to discover... what you hear is what you get. Not sure if these will be hits anywhere...even dance clubs don't play this type of stuff any more.
Me.
Doesn't sound like you like it to me, not to worry, it just gets confusing.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-30 22:51 by stone4ever.
Once again, when or where have I ever said I don't like this track?
Someone posted
I'm glad that so many people seem to like these songs. As much as I love Mick, I'm sorry to say that I can't share this feeling. Anything on Crosseyed Heart sounds to me 1000 times better than either song. Hopefully I might change my mind with additional listenings, but that's my very humble opinion so far.
Hairball reply
I was trying to be positive earlier with first impressions, but I would agree withe the above. After a few more listens don't see that either of these new tunes (and their multiple remixes) will have any staying power. They really sound like outtakes and/or B-sides from the years past quickly cobbled together...works in progress that are missing certain elements. Not bad for a listen or two, but nothing that will keep me coming back...no deep meaning...no nuances to discover... what you hear is what you get. Not sure if these will be hits anywhere...even dance clubs don't play this type of stuff any more.
Me.
Doesn't sound like you like it to me, not to worry, it just gets confusing.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-30 22:51 by stone4ever.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
wonderboy
()
Date: July 30, 2017 22:51
I wouldn't guess that Keith rejected them; suspect Mick just decided to do it on his own, knowing Keith wouldn't get into the style of production. And wanted it to get done quickly.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: July 30, 2017 22:58
Quote
stone4ever
Hairball.
Once again, when or where have I ever said I don't like this track?
Someone posted
I'm glad that so many people seem to like these songs. As much as I love Mick, I'm sorry to say that I can't share this feeling. Anything on Crosseyed Heart sounds to me 1000 times better than either song. Hopefully I might change my mind with additional listenings, but that's my very humble opinion so far.
Hairball reply
I was trying to be positive earlier with first impressions, but I would agree withe the above. After a few more listens don't see that either of these new tunes (and their multiple remixes) will have any staying power. They really sound like outtakes and/or B-sides from the years past quickly cobbled together...works in progress that are missing certain elements. Not bad for a listen or two, but nothing that will keep me coming back...no deep meaning...no nuances to discover... what you hear is what you get. Not sure if these will be hits anywhere...even dance clubs don't play this type of stuff any more.
Me.
Doesn't sound like you like it to me, not to worry, it just gets confusing.
No worries stone4ever - yes things can get confusing amidst new releases and the process of digesting, appreciating, and critiquing.
And thanks for taking the time to find that, but...I never said with absolute certainty I didn't like it.
It was said in the early stages of absorbing a new tune that I was unsure of...mixed emotions if you will, and as mentioned opinions can evolve during the "growing" process.
Trust me, if really I don't like something I am not afraid or ashamed to exclaim it loud and clear while standing on the highest mountain with a megaphone for the world to hear.
That said, I stand by the thought that they still sound like outtakes and/or B-sides from the years past quickly cobbled together...works in progress that are missing certain elements. Can't pin it down, but there's something generic and/or familiar to these, but that's not to say I absolutely don't like it (Getta Grip that is).
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-30 23:01 by Hairball.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: July 30, 2017 23:05
If the above credits are true, then this ends of the debate of whether these should have been on a Stones album instead. Only Jagger/Richards songs are allowed, never Jagger/Clifford. Ron Wood can't even get a song on a Stones album, and he's a Stone.Quote
kowalski
Anyone else who has noticed the songs credits?
According to Qobuz : [www.qobuz.com]
1 Gotta Get A Grip 00:04:05
Stephen Marcussen, Mastering Engineer - MICK JAGGER, Composer, Author, Guitar, Co-Producer, Vocals, MainArtist - Copyright Control, MusicPublisher - Tom Elmhirst, Mixer - Robbie Nelson, Recording Engineer, Programming - Ronnie Wood, Electric Guitar - Matt Clifford, Composer, Author
2 England Lost 00:03:53
Stephen Marcussen, Mastering Engineer - MICK JAGGER, Composer, Author, Guitar, Co-Producer, Vocals, MainArtist - Copyright Control, MusicPublisher - Tom Elmhirst, Mixer - Robbie Nelson, Recording Engineer, Programming - Ronnie Wood, Electric Guitar - Matt Clifford, Composer, Author
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: July 30, 2017 23:23
Quote
stoneheartedIf the above credits are true, then this ends of the debate of whether these should have been on a Stones album instead. Only Jagger/Richards songs are allowed, never Jagger/Clifford. Ron Wood can't even get a song on a Stones album, and he's a Stone.Quote
kowalski
Anyone else who has noticed the songs credits?
According to Qobuz : [www.qobuz.com]
1 Gotta Get A Grip 00:04:05
Stephen Marcussen, Mastering Engineer - MICK JAGGER, Composer, Author, Guitar, Co-Producer, Vocals, MainArtist - Copyright Control, MusicPublisher - Tom Elmhirst, Mixer - Robbie Nelson, Recording Engineer, Programming - Ronnie Wood, Electric Guitar - Matt Clifford, Composer, Author
2 England Lost 00:03:53
Stephen Marcussen, Mastering Engineer - MICK JAGGER, Composer, Author, Guitar, Co-Producer, Vocals, MainArtist - Copyright Control, MusicPublisher - Tom Elmhirst, Mixer - Robbie Nelson, Recording Engineer, Programming - Ronnie Wood, Electric Guitar - Matt Clifford, Composer, Author
Could they have been part of Micks 40 demos written solely by himself, then presented to and rejected by Keith, which in turn led Mick to bring in Clifford to help finish them off?
Or could they have been songs that Mick says he writes - "some for the Stones, some not" (to paraphrase) - that wouldn't fit in with the Stones, in which he never presented to the Stones/Keith in the first place?
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: July 30, 2017 23:47
Quote
HairballQuote
stone4ever
Hairball.
Once again, when or where have I ever said I don't like this track?
Someone posted
I'm glad that so many people seem to like these songs. As much as I love Mick, I'm sorry to say that I can't share this feeling. Anything on Crosseyed Heart sounds to me 1000 times better than either song. Hopefully I might change my mind with additional listenings, but that's my very humble opinion so far.
Hairball reply
I was trying to be positive earlier with first impressions, but I would agree withe the above. After a few more listens don't see that either of these new tunes (and their multiple remixes) will have any staying power. They really sound like outtakes and/or B-sides from the years past quickly cobbled together...works in progress that are missing certain elements. Not bad for a listen or two, but nothing that will keep me coming back...no deep meaning...no nuances to discover... what you hear is what you get. Not sure if these will be hits anywhere...even dance clubs don't play this type of stuff any more.
Me.
Doesn't sound like you like it to me, not to worry, it just gets confusing.
No worries stone4ever - yes things can get confusing amidst new releases and the process of digesting, appreciating, and critiquing.
And thanks for taking the time to find that, but...I never said with absolute certainty I didn't like it.
It was said in the early stages of absorbing a new tune that I was unsure of...mixed emotions if you will, and as mentioned opinions can evolve during the "growing" process.
Trust me, if really I don't like something I am not afraid or ashamed to exclaim it loud and clear while standing on the highest mountain with a megaphone for the world to hear.
That said, I stand by the thought that they still sound like outtakes and/or B-sides from the years past quickly cobbled together...works in progress that are missing certain elements. Can't pin it down, but there's something generic and/or familiar to these, but that's not to say I absolutely don't like it (Getta Grip that is).
Yeah its a strange one, i've gone from liking it initially, to then loving it and now i'm bored with it lol
I suppose normally we get a whole album to digest and the songs gradually grow on us ( or not ). But these two recordings are suffering from overkill now.
I'm going to put it down for a rest now and move onto other things.
Thanks for taking the time to explain yourself hairball.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: July 30, 2017 23:58
It's possible not to like a tune, but at the same time like something about it.
I like Mick's voice and the lyrics + what he is trying to get across, but the music itself isn't that great, imo.
I like Mick's voice and the lyrics + what he is trying to get across, but the music itself isn't that great, imo.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: July 31, 2017 00:18
Quote
stoneheartedIf the above credits are true, then this ends of the debate of whether these should have been on a Stones album instead. Only Jagger/Richards songs are allowed, never Jagger/Clifford. Ron Wood can't even get a song on a Stones album, and he's a Stone.Quote
kowalski
Anyone else who has noticed the songs credits?
According to Qobuz : [www.qobuz.com]
1 Gotta Get A Grip 00:04:05
Stephen Marcussen, Mastering Engineer - MICK JAGGER, Composer, Author, Guitar, Co-Producer, Vocals, MainArtist - Copyright Control, MusicPublisher - Tom Elmhirst, Mixer - Robbie Nelson, Recording Engineer, Programming - Ronnie Wood, Electric Guitar - Matt Clifford, Composer, Author
2 England Lost 00:03:53
Stephen Marcussen, Mastering Engineer - MICK JAGGER, Composer, Author, Guitar, Co-Producer, Vocals, MainArtist - Copyright Control, MusicPublisher - Tom Elmhirst, Mixer - Robbie Nelson, Recording Engineer, Programming - Ronnie Wood, Electric Guitar - Matt Clifford, Composer, Author
If the two songs and their treatment are representative for a direction of a number of Mick Jagger songs, I for one will say my preference now is that there will follow a studio album in that vein from Mick Jagger and His Mates (as named in the quote). Postpone ambitions for a Rolling Stones studio album for a later time, if there is any future. Then Keith Richards may use his time for a CROSSEYED HEART vol 2. The first alternative I will look forward to with much interest and passion. The second alternative I promise that I will compel myself to listen to at least 10 times, hopefully 25 times, even if it will be boring.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
hopkins
()
Date: July 31, 2017 00:32
Who's Matt Clifford?
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: July 31, 2017 00:36
Quote
stone4everQuote
HairballQuote
stone4ever
Hairball.
Once again, when or where have I ever said I don't like this track?
Someone posted
I'm glad that so many people seem to like these songs. As much as I love Mick, I'm sorry to say that I can't share this feeling. Anything on Crosseyed Heart sounds to me 1000 times better than either song. Hopefully I might change my mind with additional listenings, but that's my very humble opinion so far.
Hairball reply
I was trying to be positive earlier with first impressions, but I would agree withe the above. After a few more listens don't see that either of these new tunes (and their multiple remixes) will have any staying power. They really sound like outtakes and/or B-sides from the years past quickly cobbled together...works in progress that are missing certain elements. Not bad for a listen or two, but nothing that will keep me coming back...no deep meaning...no nuances to discover... what you hear is what you get. Not sure if these will be hits anywhere...even dance clubs don't play this type of stuff any more.
Me.
Doesn't sound like you like it to me, not to worry, it just gets confusing.
No worries stone4ever - yes things can get confusing amidst new releases and the process of digesting, appreciating, and critiquing.
And thanks for taking the time to find that, but...I never said with absolute certainty I didn't like it.
It was said in the early stages of absorbing a new tune that I was unsure of...mixed emotions if you will, and as mentioned opinions can evolve during the "growing" process.
Trust me, if really I don't like something I am not afraid or ashamed to exclaim it loud and clear while standing on the highest mountain with a megaphone for the world to hear.
That said, I stand by the thought that they still sound like outtakes and/or B-sides from the years past quickly cobbled together...works in progress that are missing certain elements. Can't pin it down, but there's something generic and/or familiar to these, but that's not to say I absolutely don't like it (Getta Grip that is).
Yeah its a strange one, i've gone from liking it initially, to then loving it and now i'm bored with it lol
I suppose normally we get a whole album to digest and the songs gradually grow on us ( or not ). But these two recordings are suffering from overkill now.
I'm going to put it down for a rest now and move onto other things.
Thanks for taking the time to explain yourself hairball.
Yes there is the fear of overkill.
I mentioned in the U2 thread that there is a recent song of theirs - Santa Barbara - which gets played on the radio a daily basis in my area (30 miles south of Santa Barbara). I really can't stand anything U2 had released for years now including that song, but when you're force fed a tune you begin to like certain aspects of it - I think you mentioned brainwashing earlier. I defnitely don't love the tune, but won't rush to change the station. The problem is, once you begin to like something of this nature, the overkill becomes a problem and you're already becoming sick of it. I'm still in the upward trajectory of getting an appreciation for Getta Grip pacing myself in intervals, but I fear the moment it truly sinks in I'll be completely over and done with it. Certain things can't be forced, and when a song is mediocre at best I dont think it can ever be considered or be elevated to greatness - at least for me. As you say, it doesn't help that there's not an entire album to digest, but when all is said and done my final verdict will probably be not too shabby thanks Mick - next. Hopefully original Stones album and/or something solo from Keith.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: July 31, 2017 01:06
Quote
stonehearted
If the above credits are true, then this ends of the debate of whether these should have been on a Stones album instead. Only Jagger/Richards songs are allowed, never Jagger/Clifford. Ron Wood can't even get a song on a Stones album, and he's a Stone.
Well let's look at that for a minute. Ronnie Wood had ten co-writing credits with the Stones from 1978-1986. Finally, in 2011, they re-recorded much of "When You're Gone" which earned Ronnie his first co-writing credit on a Stones song in 25 years. Steve Jordan has two co-writing credits on Stones songs (in 1989 and 2012, respectively). Chuck Leavell had a co-writing credit in 1986. Pierre de Beauport received a co-writing credit in 1997. As for Matt Clifford, he shared an arrangement credit with Mick for "Continental Drift" in 1989 and has had pre-production and co-producer credits with The Stones in more recent times. Considering the number of co-writing credits he's had with Mick outside the Stones over the last 16 years, it's not unprecedented to think a Jagger/Richards/Clifford credit is possible.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: July 31, 2017 01:09
A side player that Mick brought in: [www.iorr.org]Quote
hopkins
Who's Matt Clifford?
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: July 31, 2017 01:19
Quote
hopkins
Who's Matt Clifford?
The polite answer is he's a keyboard player who Mick stole from a Yes-offshoot in 1989 to play keyboards and help Bernard Fowler arrange backing vocals during the STEEL WHEELS sessions. He was part of the album from pre-production through the bitter end and played keyboards alongside Chuck on the STEEL WHEELS and URBAN JUNGLE tours.
Matt then arranged the strings for "Angel in My Heart" on WANDERING SPIRIT and the orchestral version of "Angie" Mick sang on THE SYMPHONIC MUSIC OF THE ROLLING STONES. He also played piano on the lounge number Mick sang in the film, BENT.
In the current century, Matt arranged and co-produced most of GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY, playing keyboards and singing back-up on nearly every song and even co-writing most of the album. He handled pre-production on three of the FOUR NEW LICKS in 2002 and co-produced and handled pre-production on "Streets of Love" and "Rain Fall Down" on A BIGGER BANG.
In the current decade, Matt has assisted Mick in completing tracks for reissues of EXILE and SOME GIRLS and took part in overdubbing new bits to new/old songs. He returned to touring with the Stones in a limited capacity (just "You Can't Always Get What You Want") in 2012, but over the last few years is now back sharing keyboard duties full-time alongside Chuck.
In a controversial move, it was Matt and not Chuck who cut BLUE AND LONESOME with the band although Chuck was later able to overdub a bit. Mick and Ronnie took part in Matt's "Save the Children" charity single (which Matt wrote) and he co-wrote "Drive of Shame" with Mick and Brad Paisley.
Most painful to me, it was Matt who joined Mick and Charlie for the Monty Python sketch for their farewell shows a few years ago.
Matt also regularly accompanies Mick to sporting events and is often captured in photos with Mick when the latter tries and fails to enjoy himself in public.
It is safe to say he is one of Mick's closest friends.
Anything else is just asking for trouble.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: July 31, 2017 01:28
Aside from Dirty Work, are there other Stones albums where Ronnie has a co-writing credit? You have a very thorough knowledge of these things obviously, so I'm just wondering. I'm aware of Ronnie's co-credits on Dirty Work and B-sides like Everything Is Turning To Gold. Also It's Only Rock And Roll, listed as Jagger/Richards, but which he actually co-wrote.Quote
Rocky DijonQuote
stonehearted
If the above credits are true, then this ends of the debate of whether these should have been on a Stones album instead. Only Jagger/Richards songs are allowed, never Jagger/Clifford. Ron Wood can't even get a song on a Stones album, and he's a Stone.
Well let's look at that for a minute. Ronnie Wood had ten co-writing credits with the Stones from 1978-1986. Finally, in 2011, they re-recorded much of "When You're Gone" which earned Ronnie his first co-writing credit on a Stones song in 25 years. Steve Jordan has two co-writing credits on Stones songs (in 1989 and 2012, respectively). Chuck Leavell had a co-writing credit in 1986. Pierre de Beauport received a co-writing credit in 1997. As for Matt Clifford, he shared an arrangement credit with Mick for "Continental Drift" in 1989 and has had pre-production and co-producer credits with The Stones in more recent times. Considering the number of co-writing credits he's had with Mick outside the Stones over the last 16 years, it's not unprecedented to think a Jagger/Richards/Clifford credit is possible.
Almost Hear You Sigh is an outtake from the Talk Is Cheap sessions, and One More Shot is also an outtake from solo sessions. If it hadn't been included on Grrr!, it might have wound up on Crosseyed Heart instead.
You can be assured that Chuck Leavell will never have another writing credit. What makes me say that? Because if there's one thing the world doesn't need, it's another Back To Zero.
For Clifford to have a co-arrangement credit on Continental Drift, this means he had musical input -- but arranging is not the same as songwriting.
Regarding Almost Hear You Sigh, judging from the early version with Keith on vocals, it's obvious that Mick made lyrical contributions to finish the song, so he certainly should have a co-credit there.
But there's something like Saint Of Me, which is obviously a Mick solo demo that he brought in, and which Keith doesn't even play on, and yet it's released as Jagger/Richards.
So that's the sort of thing that makes me think a Clifford co-writing credit on a Stones album track release, though possible, is unlikely. Think of how Ronnie must feel about such a thing, when he's got all these songs he's written as well.
Interesting, though, that he has Ronnie and Charlie playing on these songs -- which is never done for any of Mick's other solo releases. Makes me wonder if these are just outtakes from Stones sessions where Keith wasn't present.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: July 31, 2017 01:36
Could have been. For all we know, he might have worked with Matt Clifford on these during the demo stage.Quote
Hairball
Could they have been part of Micks 40 demos written solely by himself, then presented to and rejected by Keith, which in turn led Mick to bring in Clifford to help finish them off?
Or could they have been songs that Mick says he writes - "some for the Stones, some not" (to paraphrase) - that wouldn't fit in with the Stones, in which he never presented to the Stones/Keith in the first place?
The thing that makes me think these might actually be outtakes from recent scattered Stones recording sessions is the surprising fact that Ronnie and Charlie are playing on these, which is never done for solo recordings that Mick releases.
Think of other Stones albums where you have tracks featuring only one Stones guitarist and the Stones drummer with Keith absent. Shine A Light, a Sticky Fingers outtake, and two songs from Bridges To Babylon, Anybody Seen My Baby and Saint Of Me. Yet despite Keith's lack of involvement in the songwriting and his absence from the studio when these were being recorded, these still went out as Jagger/Richards.
It could be that Keith wanted to distance himself from the political message, didn't want his name associated with what was being said, and objected to associating the Stones with such subject matter.
Someday we'll find out the truth behind the scenes, many years from now, but for the moment all we can do is speculate.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: July 31, 2017 01:43
Someday we'll find out the truth behind the scenes, many years from now, but for the moment all we can do is speculate.
YES.....
ROCKMAN
YES.....
ROCKMAN
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
runrudolph
()
Date: July 31, 2017 01:47
Quote
stoneheartedCould have been. For all we know, he might have worked with Matt Clifford on these during the demo stage.Quote
Hairball
Could they have been part of Micks 40 demos written solely by himself, then presented to and rejected by Keith, which in turn led Mick to bring in Clifford to help finish them off?
Or could they have been songs that Mick says he writes - "some for the Stones, some not" (to paraphrase) - that wouldn't fit in with the Stones, in which he never presented to the Stones/Keith in the first place?
The thing that makes me think these might actually be outtakes from recent scattered Stones recording sessions is the surprising fact that Ronnie and Charlie are playing on these, which is never done for solo recordings that Mick releases.
Think of other Stones albums where you have tracks featuring only one Stones guitarist and the Stones drummer with Keith absent. Shine A Light, a Sticky Fingers outtake, and two songs from Bridges To Babylon, Anybody Seen My Baby and Saint Of Me. Yet despite Keith's lack of involvement in the songwriting and his absence from the studio when these were being recorded, these still went out as Jagger/Richards.
It could be that Keith wanted to distance himself from the political message, didn't want his name associated with what was being said, and objected to associating the Stones with such subject matter.
Someday we'll find out the truth behind the scenes, many years from now, but for the moment all we can do is speculate.
which is never done for solo recordings that Mick releases.
How do you know, FFS??
We dont know everything, although we might think we do. Time will tell, in maybe 20 years.
Or we might never know.
Jeroen
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: July 31, 2017 01:57
For Corriecas' sake, take it easy, relax.Quote
corriecas
which is never done for solo recordings that Mick releases.
How do you know, FFS??
We dont know everything, although we might think we do. Time will tell, in maybe 20 years.
Or we might never know.
Jeroen
I didn't claim to "know" anything -- didn't you read the last line of my post you were replying to?
Pardon me for thinking out loud on a message board, for Corriecas' sake.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: July 31, 2017 02:08
Quote
hopkins
Who's Matt Clifford?
Exactly.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: July 31, 2017 02:10
Quote
WitnessQuote
stoneheartedIf the above credits are true, then this ends of the debate of whether these should have been on a Stones album instead. Only Jagger/Richards songs are allowed, never Jagger/Clifford. Ron Wood can't even get a song on a Stones album, and he's a Stone.Quote
kowalski
Anyone else who has noticed the songs credits?
According to Qobuz : [www.qobuz.com]
1 Gotta Get A Grip 00:04:05
Stephen Marcussen, Mastering Engineer - MICK JAGGER, Composer, Author, Guitar, Co-Producer, Vocals, MainArtist - Copyright Control, MusicPublisher - Tom Elmhirst, Mixer - Robbie Nelson, Recording Engineer, Programming - Ronnie Wood, Electric Guitar - Matt Clifford, Composer, Author
2 England Lost 00:03:53
Stephen Marcussen, Mastering Engineer - MICK JAGGER, Composer, Author, Guitar, Co-Producer, Vocals, MainArtist - Copyright Control, MusicPublisher - Tom Elmhirst, Mixer - Robbie Nelson, Recording Engineer, Programming - Ronnie Wood, Electric Guitar - Matt Clifford, Composer, Author
If the two songs and their treatment are representative for a direction of a number of Mick Jagger songs, I for one will say my preference now is that there will follow a studio album in that vein from Mick Jagger and His Mates (as named in the quote). Postpone ambitions for a Rolling Stones studio album for a later time, if there is any future. Then Keith Richards may use his time for a CROSSEYED HEART vol 2. The first alternative I will look forward to with much interest and passion. The second alternative I promise that I will compel myself to listen to at least 10 times, hopefully 25 times, even if it will be boring.
haha lol oh i get it now
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: July 31, 2017 02:13
Ronnie got songwriting credits on ER, TY and Undercover as well.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: July 31, 2017 02:24
I sometimes wonder how many of you wound up here.
I didn't realize that Rolling Stones fans first and foremost are Rap fan's who love modern over production of songs that sound like they have some sort of meaning but in the case of Mick it doesn't count because he thinks the opposite of what he writes. They also above all else love Mick working with Matt over Keith any-day of the week and will follow Mick and Matt solo above Keith or the Stones as the Stones with Keith bores the crap out of them. Yay it all makes such perfect sense. Brilliant
I didn't realize that Rolling Stones fans first and foremost are Rap fan's who love modern over production of songs that sound like they have some sort of meaning but in the case of Mick it doesn't count because he thinks the opposite of what he writes. They also above all else love Mick working with Matt over Keith any-day of the week and will follow Mick and Matt solo above Keith or the Stones as the Stones with Keith bores the crap out of them. Yay it all makes such perfect sense. Brilliant
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: July 31, 2017 02:50
I don't like rap (although I do like "Rapture" by Blondie). I found sampling Biz Markie on "Anybody Seen My Baby" (or Mick and Bernard singing the same thing live) to be embarrassing. That said, the new sides by Mick are rants to my ears and the music is just noise, but then I'm old. I also don't play the version of "England Falls" with Septic Tank or whatever his name is ruining the song the same way Damian Marley did on most of Superheavy's album.
Ronnie and Charlie have played on Mick's demos before, but there has never been a solo release with Ronnie and Charlie joining Mick. Of course, debut solo singles are certainly occasion enough to celebrate so who can blame them?
Ronnie and Charlie have played on Mick's demos before, but there has never been a solo release with Ronnie and Charlie joining Mick. Of course, debut solo singles are certainly occasion enough to celebrate so who can blame them?
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