Tell Me :
Talk
As these are my thoughts exactly, and considering the suspicion that these two tracks may indeed be Stones rejects (at least the participation of Ronnie and Charlie is a strong hint) I fear that things do not look all too well for the new Stones album with a bored Jagger, quickly losing interest into new Stones recordings because he is not really up to another "safe", retro-sounding album. Could well be that the "hitting the wall"-incident was not about a particular song as reported, but more a sign of a major disagreement concerning the general direction of the album. I cannot imagine that any of the key protagonists would want another half-hearted affair to be released as the very last Stones album. In that respect, Blue And Lonesome could work very well as a safety net! I hope I'm wrong, though.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 04:40 by retired_dog.
Gotta Get A Grip ......
ROCKMAN
Many of us are passionate about this band and, imagining what we could do as producer (if we weren't awestruck to be in their presence as they create and could respond with the same critical faculties as when we listen to their work or works-in-progress in the privacy of our own space) to diagnose what went wrong between Jagger and Richards. Many of us have theories. Some are based in solid reasoning. Some are parroting what we read or hear in interviews to show we are attuned to the band. What Teddy contributed above may be the most succinct summation of Mick's current strengths and weaknesses as a songwriter. The vowel movements are no longer regular and they were essential to the magic.
I think all this points towards writers block.
I've said this before but Crosseyed Heart must have been an intimidating desperate blow to Mick. The completeness of that album must have taken its toll on Mick's ego. I am only guessing but i don't think Mick wants to stand toe to toe with Keith and try to create something new and spontaneous through fear of not coming up with the goods or expectations.
He is happy to pretend that he wants to try other avenues but i don't see evidence of anything different about what Mick has achieved in the last decade, it's more desperate than different, certainly not prolific. There's been a couple hollow sparse efforts give or take DAG and maybe this latest release.
I can't even see that he is capable of repeating the work achieved on his solo outings. Its all dried up, he keeps going to the well only to find its empty.
I think the only remedy for Mick now is to go completely back to basics, and he needs to do that with Keith. He needs to encourage Keith to work with him, i think that's what Keith wants, but Mick is resisting this for reasons suggested above.
All this talk of 40 demo's etc, its BS. If it were true we would be getting a double solo album from Mick. Mick is always saying he is writing, but does he just mean lyrics. Come on guys we have had a handful of tracks from Mick in 11 years. The guy is certainly not lazy, if he had anything to offer we would be playing it on our Mp3's and CD's now.
BAL is just another sign that Mick can't create new material that's any good. Its a cop out, as great as BAL is , it only amounts to covers.
GGAG and all its remixes amounts to nothing really, anyone can Jazz up a limited sound with a mix here and a mix there, its not even down to the artist, i doubt Mick had much to do with the various mixes and even if he did , so what, its nothing more than trickery.
No one will say Mick has writers block on this forum but its so obvious.
I really hope Mick levels with Keith for the remainder of this unfinished new album and tries a few real sincere spontaneous collaborations, but if Mick isn't capable of working with Keith in this way, it would explain why he keeps looking elsewhere for inspiration, but its to no avail.
It happens, how many artists remain creative in their 60's and 70's to the extent they had in their 20's or 30's. I bet Mick tries so hard to make a difference in the way someone like Bowie did with his many changes in direction.
Another problem for Mick over the years is that he works with yes men, he will have it no other way, but this doesn't get the best out of him, Keith over the last few decades has been a bit of a yes man to Mick also, this is the only way Mick will work, and in this respect Mick is his own worse enemy.
I don't think Mick knowingly does any of this, he's ego probably doesn't allow it to sink in. Like with GGAG i get the feeling he takes short cuts, sure he sings well on it sure he has put considerable effort into the lyrics and the production, but it doesn't contain much substance, its like having the three vegetables without the meat. No meat no meal.
I still think he could engage himself with his natural juices and find that spark of genius we all know he possess. But will he ??
I know a lot of you guys on here think what he is doing beats the crap out of anything he ever did with keith even in their best most creative years, but you are not Stones fans, you're Mick fans, at any cost.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 11:09 by stone4ever.
Ok so Mick agrees to go into the studio with keith to make one last Stones album.
What exactly do you think Mick would expect from that arrangement.
If making a Rolling Stones album bores Mick why go in the studio with Keith in the first place.
You and Doxa actually think that its right for Mick to be bored to death at the prospect of Mick making music from their golden period, because its a safe bet, the arrogance of that statement is outrageous.
Well if Mick doesn't sing these numbers live they didn't happen lol
I hope he does do something, even in a interview setting as you suggest, i was bitterly disappointed that Keith didn't bother with performing anything from CH.
Ok Keith did a music video and a documentary but that was it. Perhaps they both don't want to antagonize the other by performing live as they have been getting on lately on tour etc.
I get the impression they might have fallen out again recently though
Actually if this is true, then my hats off to Jagger - the old bugger really tries to learn new tricks. Namely, Mick, as Keith, is a typical 'music first' writer - just trying to find a suitable words to fit the music (there might be some guideline phrases in guiding the musical creation, or stemming alongside it, but bulk of the lyrics is done later). And one typical feature of MIck's method is that the sounds of words - fitting to the music - are at least as important as their pure meanings. But Teddy's insight suggests that he has taken a pure Bob Dylan method - writing the lyrics first and then adding a suitable musical context to them.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 12:56 by Doxa.
Once again the guys from iorr have taken on all the available information, digested it, read between the lines and we have surmised the rest. knowing Mick and keith for the people they are and confident in the knowledge that history usually repeats itself.
The upshot is, keith rejected these two recordings that Ronnie and charlie had been helping Mick with, keith comes in and says i'm not having any of that crap on a Stones album, so Mick says to himself right you old so and so i'll put them out myself and in double quick time. Next thing to happen, keith will have a few too many vodkas in an interview with someone from the media and will say that he thinks Micks songs are the worst pile of crap since dogshit in the doorway, and hey presto, we get some highly charged Stones shows with lots of aggression and power.
Keith cutting Mick short when he talks to the crowd, Mick cutting keith's solo's short , lots of mad glares and stairs at each other. haha its all good, sadly Longbeach might be right about this album not happening.
Hey longbeach where are you ? damn you was right again
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 12:32 by stone4ever.
How do we know for Charlie and Ronnie play on them??? I think, till one of the 3 will say so.
Jeroen
They are credited playing on the tracks.
There is nothing arrogant there. Creativity just can't be forced. If the inspiration is not there, the results most likely would not turn out be most inspirational either. A rerlective mind would go, 'Been there, done that - and no way I could recreate the magic again, the results just turn out be more and more generic and dull'. This is not any plot against Keith Richards, but a question of Jagger's own muse. What makes him click. This is not 1968 or 1971 anymore when all of that was new and exciting for Jagger - when the creation of a 'Rolling Stones sound' was in a process (a happy outcome of the creative juices then running wild). Even if there is a will, there is huge - I guess even more likely - chance that when Jagger makes a song that, according to him, "suits for the Stones", that will sound a rather generic, 'Stones-by-numbers' tune (resembling something he and Keith did ages ago in the height of their creative powers and inspiration). WE have VOODOO LOUNGE, BRIDGES TO BABYLON and A BIGGER BANG full of songs that fell most likely under that category,
Remember, this is all speculation based on the evidence we have - of which is most important is their recorded output. What we know is that the Stones are making a new album. And I am sure quite many of "Jagger's 40 demos" do sound like a 'safe and sure' Rolling Stones.. So don't worry Riffie, you will get a nice follower to A BIGGER BANG. (Though, let me add that personally I am a bit worried if these two new Jagger tunes are too 'extreme' or 'odd' or, even worst, 'non-Stonesy', how 'safe bet' the album will turn out to be...)
- Doxa
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 15:29 by Doxa.
I'm stuck in with a trapped sciatic nerve so am able to anorak the hell out of this place this week so watch out Doxy i'm gonna bore your brains out
Ok i get it, 'Mick needs to break out of the Stones format for fear of loosing his mind with boredom' ( even though he chooses to sing the same 15 songs live every night of every tour since 89' ) Now that's music by numbers !!
Exactly what has Mick achieved in the last 11 years from breaking out of the same old Stones generic material. I honestly can't see how Mick is being fulfilled creatively since ABB. Its been very quiet from him. Ok he involves himself with film's and a HBO series for his son James but that's executive production, that's more about putting his money where he wants to rather than being creative.
He did his bit with the Alfie film track and collaborated with Dave Stewart again and a few others, but its not like getting stuck into a whole album of originals.
I, along with others believed the reason we didn't get another solo album or Stones album from him in all this time was because there was no money in making albums anymore. I now believe its been down to writers block.
When you look at it we can't really say with Mick that its like 'oh yeah he's getting old so can't be bothered' as Mick is a driven person who would certainly come up with the goods if he could, either solo or with the Stones. He has had an insane amount of time to make music between 07' and late 2012, we had no activity at all during this period of time, no touring, nothing. Since 2012 we keep hearing constantly from Mick that he is always writing. Well what has he got to show for it ?
If the best he can come up with in all that time is England Lost and GGAG he's lost it, he doesn't have it with or without the Stones. I kid you not i can come up with better than EL and GGAG in a few hours at my sons recording studio.
For someone bored with this music Mick spends a lot of time claiming he wrote just about every single thing he can in the Stones back colleague down to the finest detail. He even went to the trouble of finishing Plundered My Soul in such a way that left keith out completely.
I think you will find that Mick hasn't fallen out of love with the Stones generic music by numbers as you put it, its more a case that he can't stand working with Keith. But the catch 22 is that he can't do it anymore without Keith. Mick really is stuck between a Rock and a hard place. I don't think he can sustain an albums worth of acceptable material on his own.
I don't wish to sound spiteful, i'm just being honest. I was so excited when i thought Mick had made a solo album last week. I really hope he gets his mojo back. Its obviously still within him.
I get the impression that many of you Mick fans are similar to me, i would be happy for keith to sing Somewhere Over The Rainbow or Lets Work. Damn it keith can read a bloody story book to me and ill be happy lol ( we got that with his bio Life, albeit Johnny Depp)
So Mick can do what he likes and you Mick devotes can be happy as Larry about it, but you shouldn't be fooled into thinking this is anything remotely close to what the man is capable of.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 17:09 by stone4ever.
Yes. And hello :-)
Good God no, its far far more complex than that, its a Mick Jagger release, this gets looked into so deeply. Mick doesn't just write a track, its so deep with hidden meaning, its so thought out, its beyond our wildest imaginations, its genius, its so far ahead of our time that we are not worthy to imagine its depth of creativeness. All we are capable of is noticing music through generic numbers, it takes a real Mick devote to understand the nuances and intricacies of these MattClifford megamixe remixed seeb. Stones music is just so last year dude
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-02 00:03 by stone4ever.
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Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
hopkins
()
Date: August 1, 2017 04:28
.I'm tempted to say that there is more actual music in the responses on this very page then mix new release. but of course I will not.when I get home I'm going to... The response. it will be, as usual, very concise. ;~)
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
hopkins
()
Date: August 1, 2017 04:30
we have certainly invested more time in this release then has Michael.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
retired_dog
()
Date: August 1, 2017 04:38
Quote
Doxa
But I am afraid that Jagger a long time ago noticed that that dwell is dried out, and he doesn't seem to have Keef-like deep interest in 'authenticity' for its own sake. He seems to need some 'extra-element' to make him click - be it some other colloborator, some new musical element, something 'novel' to excite his creative powers. He seems to need inspiration from somewhere else. If he would 'loyally' remain within the 'safe and sure' Rolling Stones boundaries - the ones made during their golden period - that most likely would bore him to death. Well, if not him, at least me - if I look the stuff the Stones have been doing mostly in their recent albums...
- Doxa, drunk
As these are my thoughts exactly, and considering the suspicion that these two tracks may indeed be Stones rejects (at least the participation of Ronnie and Charlie is a strong hint) I fear that things do not look all too well for the new Stones album with a bored Jagger, quickly losing interest into new Stones recordings because he is not really up to another "safe", retro-sounding album. Could well be that the "hitting the wall"-incident was not about a particular song as reported, but more a sign of a major disagreement concerning the general direction of the album. I cannot imagine that any of the key protagonists would want another half-hearted affair to be released as the very last Stones album. In that respect, Blue And Lonesome could work very well as a safety net! I hope I'm wrong, though.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 04:40 by retired_dog.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
TeddyB1018
()
Date: August 1, 2017 04:53
I liked Hang Fire better. Similar lyrical sentiment. Mick really seems to have an issue managing to put music himself to his words. Instead he crafts a "track," which he has become decently adept at. This method does not mesh with writing alongside someone who creates tunes, or hears music first. Thus the dilemma.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
wonderboy
()
Date: August 1, 2017 05:06
Artists have been turning out these groove-type, hip hop tracks for the past couple of decades, so can we please not say that Mick is on the cutting edge or taking chances.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: August 1, 2017 05:28
Gotta Get A Grip ......
ROCKMAN
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: August 1, 2017 05:40
Quote
TeddyB1018
Mick really seems to have an issue managing to put music himself to his words. Instead he crafts a "track," which he has become decently adept at. This method does not mesh with writing alongside someone who creates tunes, or hears music first. Thus the dilemma.
Many of us are passionate about this band and, imagining what we could do as producer (if we weren't awestruck to be in their presence as they create and could respond with the same critical faculties as when we listen to their work or works-in-progress in the privacy of our own space) to diagnose what went wrong between Jagger and Richards. Many of us have theories. Some are based in solid reasoning. Some are parroting what we read or hear in interviews to show we are attuned to the band. What Teddy contributed above may be the most succinct summation of Mick's current strengths and weaknesses as a songwriter. The vowel movements are no longer regular and they were essential to the magic.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: August 1, 2017 06:25
Some songwriters need a co-writer to have their ideas fully realized to the highest quality. Not always the case, and not with every individual member of a songwriting team, but some of the greatest tunes that have been co-written wouldn't be the same without one or the other writers. A prime example would be Lennon/McCartney - yes they can write on their own as proven with their solo career (and the White album, etc.), but together they set many standards with some of the Beatles' greatest hits.
As for the Stones, could be that Mick needs Keith just as much as Keith needs Mick, but hard to say based on what they have released the last 35+ years as they haven't been a true 'team' during this period (maybe explains the inferior albums?). But if you go back to the prime years of the '60's and early '70's, there are some classic gems that only truly worked because they were co-written by Jagger/Richards as a team. That said, I don't think Keith could add anything to these new tunes as a co-writer that would help or elevate them in any way (maybe a "dynamite" riff?), just as I don't think Mick could have helped or elevated anything on Crosseyed Heart - seems fine the way it is. Besides, the chemistry is no longer there between them.
I'm not fully sure what Matt Clifford's role is with all of this (he has composer credits?), but wondering if he is the right man to fill the role with Mick. There's a certain chemistry between great writers of a songwriting team, and maybe that chemistry isn't fully gelling here. Same could be said for a majority of Mick's solo career (Dave Stewart comes to mind) - surrounded by yes men who are afraid or unwilling to reign in and refine the material Mick writes.
Not sure why this co-existence works or is necessary for some musicians, as visual artists and writers seem to accomplish what they want solely on their own.
Different types of creative expression no doubt, but something to think about.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 06:27 by Hairball.
As for the Stones, could be that Mick needs Keith just as much as Keith needs Mick, but hard to say based on what they have released the last 35+ years as they haven't been a true 'team' during this period (maybe explains the inferior albums?). But if you go back to the prime years of the '60's and early '70's, there are some classic gems that only truly worked because they were co-written by Jagger/Richards as a team. That said, I don't think Keith could add anything to these new tunes as a co-writer that would help or elevate them in any way (maybe a "dynamite" riff?), just as I don't think Mick could have helped or elevated anything on Crosseyed Heart - seems fine the way it is. Besides, the chemistry is no longer there between them.
I'm not fully sure what Matt Clifford's role is with all of this (he has composer credits?), but wondering if he is the right man to fill the role with Mick. There's a certain chemistry between great writers of a songwriting team, and maybe that chemistry isn't fully gelling here. Same could be said for a majority of Mick's solo career (Dave Stewart comes to mind) - surrounded by yes men who are afraid or unwilling to reign in and refine the material Mick writes.
Not sure why this co-existence works or is necessary for some musicians, as visual artists and writers seem to accomplish what they want solely on their own.
Different types of creative expression no doubt, but something to think about.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 06:27 by Hairball.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Shott
()
Date: August 1, 2017 07:16
Jesus you @#$%& it's a good song.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
hopkins
()
Date: August 1, 2017 09:30
Well that's quite an essay Doxa. Gosh I should have quoted it, but I've had this window open a long time and others have commented I see...so it maybe unintentionally confusing...(as opposed to times i am intentionally confusing heh heh I kid...)
A lot of it sounds right to me. I'm just not reaching that hard into an empty shell. If this stuff were a track or two on a decent LP, solo or group, that'd be another thing. It would be fun to talk about and banter about. Maybe if sequenced properly it would be a refreshing, even interesating diversion (if it ws shorter and if EL never existed) ...
...I'll listen again some other day. And try to respond in kind, as you've taken a lot of time and written, as usual, some passionate observations...and you are so connected to your feelings and the history of the band. And your expression is fun and engagin too, so please don't think me less than respectful; because I really like seeing your name pop up. And very many times I've gotten joy, not just information from your posts.
...maybe it's just end-of-day weariness; it's now late and I'm behind in a lot of work...but I don't feel him engaging me and that's all I care about right now. Music is light and carefree and a fun thing in life. But sometimes it has more personal meeting to me. Sometimes it's almost sacred...
...Sometimes the feelings and comarderie I get from great art IS sacred to me. In those cases The Stones would be showing up a lot more than once. I don't mean 'great art,' in some pretentious fashion, or some arbitrary category; or even a directed one; like a school of painting, or a musical style that is very popular but recedes, like many have all through the entire 20th Century. I liked Lester Bangs take on how great rock and roll is indiffent to even keeping it together past a point, or singing on key even; and I appreciate that bigtime. I will destroy my own credibility, or what was left of it here, if there ever was any, right out in the open now: I think "Never Mind The Bullocks Here's The Sex Pistols" is soul music. In fact, for me, I KNOW that it is.
As for the old blues guy stuff. I know what you mean and you know what I mean. I was pretty clear, always, in being this HUGE HUGE appreciation boat for Love in Vein, Vain, and You Got To Move, I LOVE that stuff,. and i get Mick's sardonic take on it; and also even he will lapse into real feeling with it; or a cool breeze-take on it that lets you know, in my feelings anyway, that he IS hip to the pain of lost loves and the like...and hey when you are getting across in a way that engages my heart, for whatever reason that Anything! might have personal meaning and engagement for me...then that is important soul music to me and I don't care if your father was a school teacher that kept his shit together. I would want that for him.
I love the guys expression and the tracks we all love still stun me. He is huge deserved icon in my ownh life. Not with this s.t.u.f.f. I'll wait awhile and just go back to the naked studio releases of sure-shot killer music experiences for me. I don't get tired of classic studio Stones ever, like I don't get tired of reading Neruda or somebody...used to swallow all his stuff...or Dali or listening to Jumping Jack Flash as close as I can get it to the way it was first presented and I first heard it. The was EVERYBODY was hearing it. We were on the same page. There could be no doubt one way or the other.
We had the hugest most important hi technology device ever even thinkable before thsse miseralbe/wonderful pocket meta-data past Dada world...That's why Dada was important. Without the absurdists how would we have gotten Monty Python of Peter Sellers?
but I digress., damn I didn't mean to do this. damn...tired...not drunk but tired.
...yeh, so I go back often to different studio releases, and without all the fan-urrr..-fare, and shared sparkle with ANYbody else...When Jagger is rooted and real for me; even if it's with that knowing 'jokes on you ANd ME' kinda twinkle, or classic frown, I'm with him. That's the edge where light can crack through sometimes. And once in your the light anything can happen. Doors open. Doors close. It's alright. You are rocking that baby.
I'll try to stay open but in times of real need for really rooted passionate stuff that comes from the heart with soul intention. well...not this guy this time. We're not friends after all. It's a business relationship. He'd tell you that. If it ain't worth my time then it ain't worth the dime. or vice versa. Something like that anyway. Where's Kojack when you need him? He'd have aced that couplet.
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 10:00 by hopkins.
A lot of it sounds right to me. I'm just not reaching that hard into an empty shell. If this stuff were a track or two on a decent LP, solo or group, that'd be another thing. It would be fun to talk about and banter about. Maybe if sequenced properly it would be a refreshing, even interesating diversion (if it ws shorter and if EL never existed) ...
...I'll listen again some other day. And try to respond in kind, as you've taken a lot of time and written, as usual, some passionate observations...and you are so connected to your feelings and the history of the band. And your expression is fun and engagin too, so please don't think me less than respectful; because I really like seeing your name pop up. And very many times I've gotten joy, not just information from your posts.
...maybe it's just end-of-day weariness; it's now late and I'm behind in a lot of work...but I don't feel him engaging me and that's all I care about right now. Music is light and carefree and a fun thing in life. But sometimes it has more personal meeting to me. Sometimes it's almost sacred...
...Sometimes the feelings and comarderie I get from great art IS sacred to me. In those cases The Stones would be showing up a lot more than once. I don't mean 'great art,' in some pretentious fashion, or some arbitrary category; or even a directed one; like a school of painting, or a musical style that is very popular but recedes, like many have all through the entire 20th Century. I liked Lester Bangs take on how great rock and roll is indiffent to even keeping it together past a point, or singing on key even; and I appreciate that bigtime. I will destroy my own credibility, or what was left of it here, if there ever was any, right out in the open now: I think "Never Mind The Bullocks Here's The Sex Pistols" is soul music. In fact, for me, I KNOW that it is.
As for the old blues guy stuff. I know what you mean and you know what I mean. I was pretty clear, always, in being this HUGE HUGE appreciation boat for Love in Vein, Vain, and You Got To Move, I LOVE that stuff,. and i get Mick's sardonic take on it; and also even he will lapse into real feeling with it; or a cool breeze-take on it that lets you know, in my feelings anyway, that he IS hip to the pain of lost loves and the like...and hey when you are getting across in a way that engages my heart, for whatever reason that Anything! might have personal meaning and engagement for me...then that is important soul music to me and I don't care if your father was a school teacher that kept his shit together. I would want that for him.
I love the guys expression and the tracks we all love still stun me. He is huge deserved icon in my ownh life. Not with this s.t.u.f.f. I'll wait awhile and just go back to the naked studio releases of sure-shot killer music experiences for me. I don't get tired of classic studio Stones ever, like I don't get tired of reading Neruda or somebody...used to swallow all his stuff...or Dali or listening to Jumping Jack Flash as close as I can get it to the way it was first presented and I first heard it. The was EVERYBODY was hearing it. We were on the same page. There could be no doubt one way or the other.
We had the hugest most important hi technology device ever even thinkable before thsse miseralbe/wonderful pocket meta-data past Dada world...That's why Dada was important. Without the absurdists how would we have gotten Monty Python of Peter Sellers?
but I digress., damn I didn't mean to do this. damn...tired...not drunk but tired.
...yeh, so I go back often to different studio releases, and without all the fan-urrr..-fare, and shared sparkle with ANYbody else...When Jagger is rooted and real for me; even if it's with that knowing 'jokes on you ANd ME' kinda twinkle, or classic frown, I'm with him. That's the edge where light can crack through sometimes. And once in your the light anything can happen. Doors open. Doors close. It's alright. You are rocking that baby.
I'll try to stay open but in times of real need for really rooted passionate stuff that comes from the heart with soul intention. well...not this guy this time. We're not friends after all. It's a business relationship. He'd tell you that. If it ain't worth my time then it ain't worth the dime. or vice versa. Something like that anyway. Where's Kojack when you need him? He'd have aced that couplet.
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 10:00 by hopkins.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
hopkins
()
Date: August 1, 2017 10:23
I guess as I try to turn in from the long day now; my fantasy is that Mick worked that up and really got off on it, and K said no way i'm not working that up. and mick said well ok right it's not stonesy ...or something like that....
i can't give ol' keith too much credit as the opposing 'sane' or 'connected' or 'soulful' or 'hip' or 'authentically the really real one' kinda thing either tho. I liked Trouble. Some of the others don't bother me TOO much.
I don't indulge, (well maybe for a minute to make a point if it clarifies rather than distracts), in that "its THIS one, or the OTHER one, game at all. I would LIKE To...but no one's taking clean swings at the ball past the first inning on any of these solo projects imo. Or that's the way the game looks to me from these seats.
i can't give ol' keith too much credit as the opposing 'sane' or 'connected' or 'soulful' or 'hip' or 'authentically the really real one' kinda thing either tho. I liked Trouble. Some of the others don't bother me TOO much.
I don't indulge, (well maybe for a minute to make a point if it clarifies rather than distracts), in that "its THIS one, or the OTHER one, game at all. I would LIKE To...but no one's taking clean swings at the ball past the first inning on any of these solo projects imo. Or that's the way the game looks to me from these seats.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: August 1, 2017 10:50
Quote
Rocky DijonQuote
TeddyB1018
Mick really seems to have an issue managing to put music himself to his words. Instead he crafts a "track," which he has become decently adept at. This method does not mesh with writing alongside someone who creates tunes, or hears music first. Thus the dilemma.
Many of us are passionate about this band and, imagining what we could do as producer (if we weren't awestruck to be in their presence as they create and could respond with the same critical faculties as when we listen to their work or works-in-progress in the privacy of our own space) to diagnose what went wrong between Jagger and Richards. Many of us have theories. Some are based in solid reasoning. Some are parroting what we read or hear in interviews to show we are attuned to the band. What Teddy contributed above may be the most succinct summation of Mick's current strengths and weaknesses as a songwriter. The vowel movements are no longer regular and they were essential to the magic.
I think all this points towards writers block.
I've said this before but Crosseyed Heart must have been an intimidating desperate blow to Mick. The completeness of that album must have taken its toll on Mick's ego. I am only guessing but i don't think Mick wants to stand toe to toe with Keith and try to create something new and spontaneous through fear of not coming up with the goods or expectations.
He is happy to pretend that he wants to try other avenues but i don't see evidence of anything different about what Mick has achieved in the last decade, it's more desperate than different, certainly not prolific. There's been a couple hollow sparse efforts give or take DAG and maybe this latest release.
I can't even see that he is capable of repeating the work achieved on his solo outings. Its all dried up, he keeps going to the well only to find its empty.
I think the only remedy for Mick now is to go completely back to basics, and he needs to do that with Keith. He needs to encourage Keith to work with him, i think that's what Keith wants, but Mick is resisting this for reasons suggested above.
All this talk of 40 demo's etc, its BS. If it were true we would be getting a double solo album from Mick. Mick is always saying he is writing, but does he just mean lyrics. Come on guys we have had a handful of tracks from Mick in 11 years. The guy is certainly not lazy, if he had anything to offer we would be playing it on our Mp3's and CD's now.
BAL is just another sign that Mick can't create new material that's any good. Its a cop out, as great as BAL is , it only amounts to covers.
GGAG and all its remixes amounts to nothing really, anyone can Jazz up a limited sound with a mix here and a mix there, its not even down to the artist, i doubt Mick had much to do with the various mixes and even if he did , so what, its nothing more than trickery.
No one will say Mick has writers block on this forum but its so obvious.
I really hope Mick levels with Keith for the remainder of this unfinished new album and tries a few real sincere spontaneous collaborations, but if Mick isn't capable of working with Keith in this way, it would explain why he keeps looking elsewhere for inspiration, but its to no avail.
It happens, how many artists remain creative in their 60's and 70's to the extent they had in their 20's or 30's. I bet Mick tries so hard to make a difference in the way someone like Bowie did with his many changes in direction.
Another problem for Mick over the years is that he works with yes men, he will have it no other way, but this doesn't get the best out of him, Keith over the last few decades has been a bit of a yes man to Mick also, this is the only way Mick will work, and in this respect Mick is his own worse enemy.
I don't think Mick knowingly does any of this, he's ego probably doesn't allow it to sink in. Like with GGAG i get the feeling he takes short cuts, sure he sings well on it sure he has put considerable effort into the lyrics and the production, but it doesn't contain much substance, its like having the three vegetables without the meat. No meat no meal.
I still think he could engage himself with his natural juices and find that spark of genius we all know he possess. But will he ??
I know a lot of you guys on here think what he is doing beats the crap out of anything he ever did with keith even in their best most creative years, but you are not Stones fans, you're Mick fans, at any cost.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 11:09 by stone4ever.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: August 1, 2017 11:13
Interesting post stone4ever, with lots of things to consider and contemplate. 
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: August 1, 2017 11:32
Quote
retired_dogQuote
Doxa
But I am afraid that Jagger a long time ago noticed that that dwell is dried out, and he doesn't seem to have Keef-like deep interest in 'authenticity' for its own sake. He seems to need some 'extra-element' to make him click - be it some other colloborator, some new musical element, something 'novel' to excite his creative powers. He seems to need inspiration from somewhere else. If he would 'loyally' remain within the 'safe and sure' Rolling Stones boundaries - the ones made during their golden period - that most likely would bore him to death. Well, if not him, at least me - if I look the stuff the Stones have been doing mostly in their recent albums...
- Doxa, drunk
As these are my thoughts exactly, and considering the suspicion that these two tracks may indeed be Stones rejects (at least the participation of Ronnie and Charlie is a strong hint) I fear that things do not look all too well for the new Stones album with a bored Jagger, quickly losing interest into new Stones recordings because he is not really up to another "safe", retro-sounding album. Could well be that the "hitting the wall"-incident was not about a particular song as reported, but more a sign of a major disagreement concerning the general direction of the album. I cannot imagine that any of the key protagonists would want another half-hearted affair to be released as the very last Stones album. In that respect, Blue And Lonesome could work very well as a safety net! I hope I'm wrong, though.
Ok so Mick agrees to go into the studio with keith to make one last Stones album.
What exactly do you think Mick would expect from that arrangement.
If making a Rolling Stones album bores Mick why go in the studio with Keith in the first place.
You and Doxa actually think that its right for Mick to be bored to death at the prospect of Mick making music from their golden period, because its a safe bet, the arrogance of that statement is outrageous.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: August 1, 2017 11:36
I wonder if Mick will go on the Jimmy Fallon show to perform Getta Grip and sit for an interview. Would be interesting to hear from the horses mouth the reasoning for going solo. Not just the promo stuff he's already talked about, but some more in depth details of who, how, what, where, and most importantly why. But probably not much substance would happen with a gushing Fallon type interview, so maybe a more serious show and interview such as 60 minutes or Charlie Rose, or even Matt Lauer (sp?).Or maybe he'll reappear on SNL to play both of the new tunes and be involved in a couple of goofy skits again. By the same token, would be interesting to hear Keith's thoughts on all of this...maybe he could give some insights as to why it happened, and give his opinion on the tunes themselves. Or best case scenario, though probably unrealistic, an interview with both of them together.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: August 1, 2017 11:44
Quote
Hairball
I wonder if Mick will go on the Jimmy Fallon show to perform Getta Grip and sit for an interview. Would be interesting to hear from the horses mouth the reasoning for going solo. Not just the promo stuff he's already talked about, but some more in depth details of who, how, what, where, and most importantly why. But probably not much substance would happen with a gushing Fallon type interview, so maybe a more serious show and interview such as 60 minutes or Charlie Rose, or even Matt Lauer (sp?).Or maybe he'll reappear on SNL to play both of the new tunes and be involved in a couple of goofy skits again. By the same token, would be interesting to hear Keith's thoughts on all of this...maybe he could give some insights as to why it happened, and give his opinion on the tunes themselves. Or best case scenario, though probably unrealistic, an interview with both of them together.
Well if Mick doesn't sing these numbers live they didn't happen lol
I hope he does do something, even in a interview setting as you suggest, i was bitterly disappointed that Keith didn't bother with performing anything from CH.
Ok Keith did a music video and a documentary but that was it. Perhaps they both don't want to antagonize the other by performing live as they have been getting on lately on tour etc.
I get the impression they might have fallen out again recently though
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: August 1, 2017 11:49
I'm not sure about Mick writing these tunes in a spontaneous way a few weeks ago, when we now know that Charlie and Ronnie played on them...
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 1, 2017 12:04
Quote
TeddyB1018
I liked Hang Fire better. Similar lyrical sentiment. Mick really seems to have an issue managing to put music himself to his words. Instead he crafts a "track," which he has become decently adept at. This method does not mesh with writing alongside someone who creates tunes, or hears music first. Thus the dilemma.
Actually if this is true, then my hats off to Jagger - the old bugger really tries to learn new tricks. Namely, Mick, as Keith, is a typical 'music first' writer - just trying to find a suitable words to fit the music (there might be some guideline phrases in guiding the musical creation, or stemming alongside it, but bulk of the lyrics is done later). And one typical feature of MIck's method is that the sounds of words - fitting to the music - are at least as important as their pure meanings. But Teddy's insight suggests that he has taken a pure Bob Dylan method - writing the lyrics first and then adding a suitable musical context to them.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 12:56 by Doxa.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: August 1, 2017 12:16
Quote
DandelionPowderman
I'm not sure about Mick writing these tunes in a spontaneous way a few weeks ago, when we now know that Charlie and Ronnie played on them...
Once again the guys from iorr have taken on all the available information, digested it, read between the lines and we have surmised the rest. knowing Mick and keith for the people they are and confident in the knowledge that history usually repeats itself.
The upshot is, keith rejected these two recordings that Ronnie and charlie had been helping Mick with, keith comes in and says i'm not having any of that crap on a Stones album, so Mick says to himself right you old so and so i'll put them out myself and in double quick time. Next thing to happen, keith will have a few too many vodkas in an interview with someone from the media and will say that he thinks Micks songs are the worst pile of crap since dogshit in the doorway, and hey presto, we get some highly charged Stones shows with lots of aggression and power.
Keith cutting Mick short when he talks to the crowd, Mick cutting keith's solo's short , lots of mad glares and stairs at each other. haha its all good, sadly Longbeach might be right about this album not happening.
Hey longbeach where are you ? damn you was right again
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 12:32 by stone4ever.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
runrudolph
()
Date: August 1, 2017 12:29
Quote
DandelionPowderman
I'm not sure about Mick writing these tunes in a spontaneous way a few weeks ago, when we now know that Charlie and Ronnie played on them...
How do we know for Charlie and Ronnie play on them??? I think, till one of the 3 will say so.
Jeroen
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: August 1, 2017 13:22
Quote
kowalski
Anyone else who has noticed the songs credits?
According to Qobuz : [www.qobuz.com]
1 Gotta Get A Grip 00:04:05
Stephen Marcussen, Mastering Engineer - MICK JAGGER, Composer, Author, Guitar, Co-Producer, Vocals, MainArtist - Copyright Control, MusicPublisher - Tom Elmhirst, Mixer - Robbie Nelson, Recording Engineer, Programming - Ronnie Wood, Electric Guitar - Matt Clifford, Composer, Author, Keyboards, Co-Producer, Recording Engineer, Programming - Charlie Watts, Drums - Promopub, MusicPublisher - Brandon Bost, Assistant Mixer - Pia Squillino, Participant, AssociatedPerformer
2 England Lost 00:03:53
Stephen Marcussen, Mastering Engineer - MICK JAGGER, Composer, Author, Guitar, Co-Producer, Vocals, MainArtist - Copyright Control, MusicPublisher - Tom Elmhirst, Mixer - Robbie Nelson, Recording Engineer, Programming - Ronnie Wood, Electric Guitar - Matt Clifford, Composer, Author, Keyboards, Co-Producer, Recording Engineer, Programming - Charlie Watts, Drums - Promopub, MusicPublisher - Brandon Bost, Assistant Mixer - Pia Squillino, Participant, AssociatedPerformer
A taste (test?) for what's coming for the Stones album?
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: August 1, 2017 13:40
Quote
corriecasQuote
DandelionPowderman
I'm not sure about Mick writing these tunes in a spontaneous way a few weeks ago, when we now know that Charlie and Ronnie played on them...
How do we know for Charlie and Ronnie play on them??? I think, till one of the 3 will say so.
Jeroen
They are credited playing on the tracks.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 1, 2017 15:17
Quote
stone4everQuote
retired_dogQuote
Doxa
But I am afraid that Jagger a long time ago noticed that that dwell is dried out, and he doesn't seem to have Keef-like deep interest in 'authenticity' for its own sake. He seems to need some 'extra-element' to make him click - be it some other colloborator, some new musical element, something 'novel' to excite his creative powers. He seems to need inspiration from somewhere else. If he would 'loyally' remain within the 'safe and sure' Rolling Stones boundaries - the ones made during their golden period - that most likely would bore him to death. Well, if not him, at least me - if I look the stuff the Stones have been doing mostly in their recent albums...
- Doxa, drunk
As these are my thoughts exactly, and considering the suspicion that these two tracks may indeed be Stones rejects (at least the participation of Ronnie and Charlie is a strong hint) I fear that things do not look all too well for the new Stones album with a bored Jagger, quickly losing interest into new Stones recordings because he is not really up to another "safe", retro-sounding album. Could well be that the "hitting the wall"-incident was not about a particular song as reported, but more a sign of a major disagreement concerning the general direction of the album. I cannot imagine that any of the key protagonists would want another half-hearted affair to be released as the very last Stones album. In that respect, Blue And Lonesome could work very well as a safety net! I hope I'm wrong, though.
Ok so Mick agrees to go into the studio with keith to make one last Stones album.
What exactly do you think Mick would expect from that arrangement.
If making a Rolling Stones album bores Mick why go in the studio with Keith in the first place.
You and Doxa actually think that its right for Mick to be bored to death at the prospect of Mick making music from their golden period, because its a safe bet, the arrogance of that statement is outrageous.
There is nothing arrogant there. Creativity just can't be forced. If the inspiration is not there, the results most likely would not turn out be most inspirational either. A rerlective mind would go, 'Been there, done that - and no way I could recreate the magic again, the results just turn out be more and more generic and dull'. This is not any plot against Keith Richards, but a question of Jagger's own muse. What makes him click. This is not 1968 or 1971 anymore when all of that was new and exciting for Jagger - when the creation of a 'Rolling Stones sound' was in a process (a happy outcome of the creative juices then running wild). Even if there is a will, there is huge - I guess even more likely - chance that when Jagger makes a song that, according to him, "suits for the Stones", that will sound a rather generic, 'Stones-by-numbers' tune (resembling something he and Keith did ages ago in the height of their creative powers and inspiration). WE have VOODOO LOUNGE, BRIDGES TO BABYLON and A BIGGER BANG full of songs that fell most likely under that category,
Remember, this is all speculation based on the evidence we have - of which is most important is their recorded output. What we know is that the Stones are making a new album. And I am sure quite many of "Jagger's 40 demos" do sound like a 'safe and sure' Rolling Stones.. So don't worry Riffie, you will get a nice follower to A BIGGER BANG. (Though, let me add that personally I am a bit worried if these two new Jagger tunes are too 'extreme' or 'odd' or, even worst, 'non-Stonesy', how 'safe bet' the album will turn out to be...)
- Doxa
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 15:29 by Doxa.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: August 1, 2017 15:28
So Mick says he wrote and recorded the tracks in April. Robbie Nelson is credited as recording engineer. The Stones' sessions this year in London were engineered by Krishna Sharma (I believe Dave O'Donnell handled the New York sessions). So these aren't precisely Stones tracks without Keith.
I do suspect the release is Universal testing the water to gauge fan acceptance of the new sound as it could influence what is released as the single from next year's Stones album. Labels prefer the tried and true as the new single for a Stones album. The band (or Mick) often want to try something fresh for the single. This is a good litmus test. Universal spent a nice bit of money on music videos and remixes. They want it to succeed if it can.
The songs are through Promopub and Promotone in all likelihood because Charlie and Ronnie are playing on it and will then receive a share via Promotone (as will Keith) whereas with Jagged Recordings and Jagged Music, they would just be hired hands and probably less likely to cooperate.
I do suspect the release is Universal testing the water to gauge fan acceptance of the new sound as it could influence what is released as the single from next year's Stones album. Labels prefer the tried and true as the new single for a Stones album. The band (or Mick) often want to try something fresh for the single. This is a good litmus test. Universal spent a nice bit of money on music videos and remixes. They want it to succeed if it can.
The songs are through Promopub and Promotone in all likelihood because Charlie and Ronnie are playing on it and will then receive a share via Promotone (as will Keith) whereas with Jagged Recordings and Jagged Music, they would just be hired hands and probably less likely to cooperate.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 1, 2017 15:49
When reflecting how 'generic' "Gotta Get A Grip" is and 'nothing new under the sun' .... Damn, the same old thing again... the guy picks a staight borrowing from black dance music sources, a riff, then half-raps and shouts over it a frustrated Dylanisque rant of how @#$%& up everything is in the world today... "I CAN'T GET NO!"!
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 15:55 by Doxa.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 15:55 by Doxa.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: August 1, 2017 16:53
Quote
DoxaQuote
stone4everQuote
retired_dogQuote
Doxa
But I am afraid that Jagger a long time ago noticed that that dwell is dried out, and he doesn't seem to have Keef-like deep interest in 'authenticity' for its own sake. He seems to need some 'extra-element' to make him click - be it some other colloborator, some new musical element, something 'novel' to excite his creative powers. He seems to need inspiration from somewhere else. If he would 'loyally' remain within the 'safe and sure' Rolling Stones boundaries - the ones made during their golden period - that most likely would bore him to death. Well, if not him, at least me - if I look the stuff the Stones have been doing mostly in their recent albums...
- Doxa, drunk
As these are my thoughts exactly, and considering the suspicion that these two tracks may indeed be Stones rejects (at least the participation of Ronnie and Charlie is a strong hint) I fear that things do not look all too well for the new Stones album with a bored Jagger, quickly losing interest into new Stones recordings because he is not really up to another "safe", retro-sounding album. Could well be that the "hitting the wall"-incident was not about a particular song as reported, but more a sign of a major disagreement concerning the general direction of the album. I cannot imagine that any of the key protagonists would want another half-hearted affair to be released as the very last Stones album. In that respect, Blue And Lonesome could work very well as a safety net! I hope I'm wrong, though.
Ok so Mick agrees to go into the studio with keith to make one last Stones album.
What exactly do you think Mick would expect from that arrangement.
If making a Rolling Stones album bores Mick why go in the studio with Keith in the first place.
You and Doxa actually think that its right for Mick to be bored to death at the prospect of Mick making music from their golden period, because its a safe bet, the arrogance of that statement is outrageous.
There is nothing arrogant there. Creativity just can't be forced. If the inspiration is not there, the results most likely would not turn out be most inspirational either. A rerlective mind would go, 'Been there, done that - and no way I could recreate the magic again, the results just turn out be more and more generic and dull'. This is not any plot against Keith Richards, but a question of Jagger's own muse. What makes him click. This is not 1968 or 1971 anymore when all of that was new and exciting for Jagger - when the creation of a 'Rolling Stones sound' was in a process (a happy outcome of the creative juices then running wild). Even if there is a will, there is huge - I guess even more likely - chance that when Jagger makes a song that, according to him, "suits for the Stones", that will sound a rather generic, 'Stones-by-numbers' tune (resembling something he and Keith did ages ago in the height of their creative powers and inspiration). WE have VOODOO LOUNGE, BRIDGES TO BABYLON and A BIGGER BANG full of songs that fell most likely under that category,
Remember, this is all speculation based on the evidence we have - of which is most important is their recorded output. What we know is that the Stones are making a new album. And I am sure quite many of "Jagger's 40 demos" do sound like a 'safe and sure' Rolling Stones.. So don't worry Riffie, you will get a nice follower to A BIGGER BANG. (Though, let me add that personally I am a bit worried if these two new Jagger tunes are too 'extreme' or 'odd' or, even worst, 'non-Stonesy', how 'safe bet' the album will turn out to be...)
- Doxa
I'm stuck in with a trapped sciatic nerve so am able to anorak the hell out of this place this week so watch out Doxy i'm gonna bore your brains out
Ok i get it, 'Mick needs to break out of the Stones format for fear of loosing his mind with boredom' ( even though he chooses to sing the same 15 songs live every night of every tour since 89' ) Now that's music by numbers !!
Exactly what has Mick achieved in the last 11 years from breaking out of the same old Stones generic material. I honestly can't see how Mick is being fulfilled creatively since ABB. Its been very quiet from him. Ok he involves himself with film's and a HBO series for his son James but that's executive production, that's more about putting his money where he wants to rather than being creative.
He did his bit with the Alfie film track and collaborated with Dave Stewart again and a few others, but its not like getting stuck into a whole album of originals.
I, along with others believed the reason we didn't get another solo album or Stones album from him in all this time was because there was no money in making albums anymore. I now believe its been down to writers block.
When you look at it we can't really say with Mick that its like 'oh yeah he's getting old so can't be bothered' as Mick is a driven person who would certainly come up with the goods if he could, either solo or with the Stones. He has had an insane amount of time to make music between 07' and late 2012, we had no activity at all during this period of time, no touring, nothing. Since 2012 we keep hearing constantly from Mick that he is always writing. Well what has he got to show for it ?
If the best he can come up with in all that time is England Lost and GGAG he's lost it, he doesn't have it with or without the Stones. I kid you not i can come up with better than EL and GGAG in a few hours at my sons recording studio.
For someone bored with this music Mick spends a lot of time claiming he wrote just about every single thing he can in the Stones back colleague down to the finest detail. He even went to the trouble of finishing Plundered My Soul in such a way that left keith out completely.
I think you will find that Mick hasn't fallen out of love with the Stones generic music by numbers as you put it, its more a case that he can't stand working with Keith. But the catch 22 is that he can't do it anymore without Keith. Mick really is stuck between a Rock and a hard place. I don't think he can sustain an albums worth of acceptable material on his own.
I don't wish to sound spiteful, i'm just being honest. I was so excited when i thought Mick had made a solo album last week. I really hope he gets his mojo back. Its obviously still within him.
I get the impression that many of you Mick fans are similar to me, i would be happy for keith to sing Somewhere Over The Rainbow or Lets Work. Damn it keith can read a bloody story book to me and ill be happy lol ( we got that with his bio Life, albeit Johnny Depp
)So Mick can do what he likes and you Mick devotes can be happy as Larry about it, but you shouldn't be fooled into thinking this is anything remotely close to what the man is capable of.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 17:09 by stone4ever.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
latebloomer
()
Date: August 1, 2017 17:00
Been away for a week, I'm trying to get caught up here, but keep losing the plot line to the imaginative fan fiction, that, while riveting at times, is also confusing and makes my head hurt a little. From what I gather, Mick put out a few songs of his own, with the obvious blessing of the rest of the band, including Keith. The Stones still plan to release a new album next year which they all want to be as good as possible. Am I on the right track?
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: August 1, 2017 17:02
Quote
latebloomer
Been away for a week, I'm trying to get caught up here, but keep losing the plot line to the imaginative fan fiction, that, while riveting at times, is also confusing and makes my head hurt a little. From what I gather, Mick put out a few songs of his own, with the obvious blessing of the rest of the band, including Keith. The Stones still plan to release a new album next year which they all want to be as good as possible. Am I on the right track?
Yes. And hello :-)
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: August 1, 2017 17:30
Quote
latebloomer
Been away for a week, I'm trying to get caught up here, but keep losing the plot line to the imaginative fan fiction, that, while riveting at times, is also confusing and makes my head hurt a little. From what I gather, Mick put out a few songs of his own, with the obvious blessing of the rest of the band, including Keith. The Stones still plan to release a new album next year which they all want to be as good as possible. Am I on the right track?
Good God no, its far far more complex than that, its a Mick Jagger release, this gets looked into so deeply. Mick doesn't just write a track, its so deep with hidden meaning, its so thought out, its beyond our wildest imaginations, its genius, its so far ahead of our time that we are not worthy to imagine its depth of creativeness. All we are capable of is noticing music through generic numbers, it takes a real Mick devote to understand the nuances and intricacies of these MattClifford megamixe remixed seeb. Stones music is just so last year dude
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-02 00:03 by stone4ever.
Re: Mick Jagger "Gotta Get a Grip" and "England Lost"
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: August 1, 2017 17:33
After BRIDGES, there was a great deal of speculation, some allegedly confirmed, that Keith was suffering writer's block. It certainly fit. When Mick turned out GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY, Keith was busy cutting covers. I thought the two that surfaced were amazing, but they were covers. Friends who were fortunate enough to hear other tracks Keith cut (including a duet with Al Green) thought the material was equally terrific, but when pressed acknowledged they were cover versions. Keith seemingly supported Mick (in the same fashion as Matt Clifford or Dave Stewart) in crafting A BIGGER BANG. Apart from interpreting the lyrics of "Infamy" to imply Keith was creatively stifled with Mick calling the shots or refusing to work together, there seemed to be supporting evidence that Keith's creative juices were shot. Another source claimed Keith's arthritis had progressed to the point that playing guitar was challenging and his head injury coupled with years of abuse seemed to suggest this was also reliable.
When LIFE was published, we learned Keith had tore Studio L out of his house after Patti was diagnosed with cancer. He also stopped playing guitar. Now we had a different story, but it still amounted to the same. Keith wasn't playing and wasn't creative. He was a spent force. For the better part of a decade, Steve Jordan tried regularly to get Keith to work. In late 2007, he suggested they record a few tracks and put them out online. Recordings took place with the Winos and other musicians, but it was confirmed they were merely re-recording Stones songs Keith originally sang and some songs from his two solo albums. Again, he was creatively spent.
Then CROSSEYED HEART comes along and we learn most of the songs had their origins during the very period Keith was allegedly dried up and not writing songs. Reliable sources even identified some of the tracks as being material they heard over the years. During promotion, Keith and Steve Jordan made it clear that Steve got Keith writing again and that Keith was essentially retired during these years apart from a few guest sessions for friends.
So now we come to Mick. Following A BIGGER BANG, we saw Mick heading for the vaults to unearth tracks, rework unfinished tracks, and anthologize material first for his solo career and then the Stones. Those who recall seeing unreleased Stones tracks being digitized as early as 2001 in BEING MICK were hardly surprised. Keith later said he believed this was all they had left. Consider their ages. They were in their mid-sixties. It was hardly surprising that they slowed down. The end of the Virgin contract seemed appropriate. The next contract would be about exploiting the past, not exploring new territory. Mick had film and television projects to keep him occupied as a producer.
Over the course of several years, Dave Stewart managed to get Mick to finish SUPERHEAVY. Dave's original plan was ambitious. Corporate support from Nokia who would sell downloads of the album with every phone. The aim was to make a splash and have the band play the London Olympics in 2012. The media thought otherwise. They were only interested in the 50th anniversary of the Stones. There were issues there. Keith, in particular, was pretty rusty when he played live. Ronnie had been on his own battling his demons. Then there was the endless copy over the "tiny todger" remark. It was something Keith had said to the press long before LIFE was published, but the book gave it new mileage. Mick was a laughing stock and Keith was a hero for most. Others sympathized with Mick for having to work with an alcoholic jerk who behaves as alcoholics do in saying hurtful things. Most imagined a few celebratory shows for the anniversary were the best you could hope for.
Then it happened again. Once they played live after finally proving they could click again, there was a new muse for Mick (a ballerina straight out of "Rocks Off"), the ever-present blues album was becoming a real possibility, and there were all these songs of varying quality (some dance tracks, some experimental, some bluesy, some sounding like vintage Stones) that Mick was amassing. Since 2011, he's been stockpiling these songs. Dave Stewart encouraged him to release his demos on a cloud calling it GET OFF ON MY CLOUD. Mick said his preference was an eventual Stones album and a possible solo album. The trick was getting them back in the studio. Both Mick and Keith wanted to do it, but seemed to have schedule problems with themselves or Charlie or Ronnie. Charlie is said to only want to work (or be able to work) in short periods each year so as not to tax himself physically. There have been medical scares for all of them as is common for people their age.
Anticipation for the new album ran high. The internet making it harder than ever for fans to wait. The label wanted the release. The band were far more cautious this time. Starting things over. Mick consulted outside producers. Keith allegedly railed against some of Mick's material, preferring his own but really wanting to collaborate with Mick from scratch one last time. Some have said the album is shaping up over the sessions this year, but it is still short of expectations. Some good tracks, some tracks that seem risky, some tracks that seem perhaps substandard. Out of the blue we have a Mick solo single with videos for both sides and learn Ronnie and Charlie are backing him and they are part of the current contract.
Some days I think the songs are growing on me (learning Ronnie and Charlie are on them helps). Mostly, I feel like an old fart who thinks it is noise and not music. And now we have the inevitable speculation that Mick is suffering writer's block. We've come full circle from Keith to Mick. Why? Because they haven't died or retired, but they won't give us what we demand -- a new album and world tour every three years like when they were in their prime. Anything else must mean they lost their spark and can't cut it any more. What fools they must be. Lock those two 74 year old kids up in the kitchen and make them deliver the classic we're so sure they can muster. After all, if they can't do it, we might have to accept that we're not kids any more either.
When LIFE was published, we learned Keith had tore Studio L out of his house after Patti was diagnosed with cancer. He also stopped playing guitar. Now we had a different story, but it still amounted to the same. Keith wasn't playing and wasn't creative. He was a spent force. For the better part of a decade, Steve Jordan tried regularly to get Keith to work. In late 2007, he suggested they record a few tracks and put them out online. Recordings took place with the Winos and other musicians, but it was confirmed they were merely re-recording Stones songs Keith originally sang and some songs from his two solo albums. Again, he was creatively spent.
Then CROSSEYED HEART comes along and we learn most of the songs had their origins during the very period Keith was allegedly dried up and not writing songs. Reliable sources even identified some of the tracks as being material they heard over the years. During promotion, Keith and Steve Jordan made it clear that Steve got Keith writing again and that Keith was essentially retired during these years apart from a few guest sessions for friends.
So now we come to Mick. Following A BIGGER BANG, we saw Mick heading for the vaults to unearth tracks, rework unfinished tracks, and anthologize material first for his solo career and then the Stones. Those who recall seeing unreleased Stones tracks being digitized as early as 2001 in BEING MICK were hardly surprised. Keith later said he believed this was all they had left. Consider their ages. They were in their mid-sixties. It was hardly surprising that they slowed down. The end of the Virgin contract seemed appropriate. The next contract would be about exploiting the past, not exploring new territory. Mick had film and television projects to keep him occupied as a producer.
Over the course of several years, Dave Stewart managed to get Mick to finish SUPERHEAVY. Dave's original plan was ambitious. Corporate support from Nokia who would sell downloads of the album with every phone. The aim was to make a splash and have the band play the London Olympics in 2012. The media thought otherwise. They were only interested in the 50th anniversary of the Stones. There were issues there. Keith, in particular, was pretty rusty when he played live. Ronnie had been on his own battling his demons. Then there was the endless copy over the "tiny todger" remark. It was something Keith had said to the press long before LIFE was published, but the book gave it new mileage. Mick was a laughing stock and Keith was a hero for most. Others sympathized with Mick for having to work with an alcoholic jerk who behaves as alcoholics do in saying hurtful things. Most imagined a few celebratory shows for the anniversary were the best you could hope for.
Then it happened again. Once they played live after finally proving they could click again, there was a new muse for Mick (a ballerina straight out of "Rocks Off"), the ever-present blues album was becoming a real possibility, and there were all these songs of varying quality (some dance tracks, some experimental, some bluesy, some sounding like vintage Stones) that Mick was amassing. Since 2011, he's been stockpiling these songs. Dave Stewart encouraged him to release his demos on a cloud calling it GET OFF ON MY CLOUD. Mick said his preference was an eventual Stones album and a possible solo album. The trick was getting them back in the studio. Both Mick and Keith wanted to do it, but seemed to have schedule problems with themselves or Charlie or Ronnie. Charlie is said to only want to work (or be able to work) in short periods each year so as not to tax himself physically. There have been medical scares for all of them as is common for people their age.
Anticipation for the new album ran high. The internet making it harder than ever for fans to wait. The label wanted the release. The band were far more cautious this time. Starting things over. Mick consulted outside producers. Keith allegedly railed against some of Mick's material, preferring his own but really wanting to collaborate with Mick from scratch one last time. Some have said the album is shaping up over the sessions this year, but it is still short of expectations. Some good tracks, some tracks that seem risky, some tracks that seem perhaps substandard. Out of the blue we have a Mick solo single with videos for both sides and learn Ronnie and Charlie are backing him and they are part of the current contract.
Some days I think the songs are growing on me (learning Ronnie and Charlie are on them helps). Mostly, I feel like an old fart who thinks it is noise and not music. And now we have the inevitable speculation that Mick is suffering writer's block. We've come full circle from Keith to Mick. Why? Because they haven't died or retired, but they won't give us what we demand -- a new album and world tour every three years like when they were in their prime. Anything else must mean they lost their spark and can't cut it any more. What fools they must be. Lock those two 74 year old kids up in the kitchen and make them deliver the classic we're so sure they can muster. After all, if they can't do it, we might have to accept that we're not kids any more either.
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