I suppose it *could* be Keith on a 12-string, but the first note of the line doesn’t seem like a move Keith would make, harmonically speaking. A little bit too sophisticated.

There’s also a little chromatic walk-up coming out of the “I’ll be thinking of you” section back into the verse that sounds clearly like Taylor.

[For the first time ever, I am now puzzling over that Tex-Mex lick. I had always assumed it was Taylor on a six-string playing a descending double-stop. But it could be Keith on a 12-string; the interval we’re hearing might actually be high-e ringing out. It’s more of a “Wild Horses” comp approach than I had ever realized.]


As for the intro acoustic, with the third-string hammer-on D chord, it’s similar to what Mick wrote for the intro of “Dead Flowers.”

Seven pages but not any post from me...

Not much ideas how to judge the song: it is allright, a nice little tune, but nothing really exciting there to make anything more than a good album track in its context. Probably, after "Angie" and some other heavy GOATS HEAD SOUP ballads, it sounds rather light-weighted. Jagger posing a bit too much, but it is charming by its own means. Belongs to the better half of IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL numbers.

But about the mystery credition - which is a mystery in itself: how this little non-special, pretty easy and not much remembered tune gathers so many co-writers... I have two theories how did the things go. Probably both bullshit, but what a hec...

In Spitz's Jagger book, Carly Simon strongly claims having co-written it with Mick during "You's So Vain" sessions. Spitz says that they "fooled around at the piano between the takes", and "nearly came up with another duet". According to Simon 'that became a song on the Stones' next album called "Till The Next Goodbye"'.

Then we have Mick Taylor saying something to the effect that he should have earned a co-credit from the song. Unfortunately I don't recall seeing the direct quote ever, not knowing anything of its context, but just as referred to. I believe those references being accurate.

I don't see reason neither Simon or Taylor intentionally bullshitting there (why should they?).

So, a theory number one:

Just a while popped up a Mick and Carly duet from those "You're So Vain" sessions. There was a litle taster of it in youtube, can't recall its title, but the one Jagger also playing in the beginning of CS BLUES movie at the piano. It was send to Carly and she talked about it in her instagram (or some other social media). Could it be that Carly, when talking to Spitz some yaers ago, misremembered it for "Till The Next Goodbye"? Memory makes tricks. We have to remember that Spitz claims that there was only one other song they played during those sessions.

A similar case could be addressed to Taylor's claim. Could it be posssible that he - or the interviewer - confused "Till The Next Goodbye" with "Time Waits For No One"?

Now, a theory number two:

Let us assume that no misremeberings or confusions - let's take both claims at face value.

Mick and Carla were fooling around at the piano. The core of the song is pretty standard musically, and a typical Jagger ballad by constitution, using I-IV as a basic pattern, enrichening it with some extra chord in refrain. In "You Can't Always Get What You Want" we have C/F, in "Winter" A/D, here we have D/G. Yep, there is that that extra chord of A making a huge impact in the final recording (a guick change to C too), which makes it to sound very guitar-based composition, but fooling around at the piano that probably wasn't such a crucial thing, them (him) just hitting those two basic chords. The A (and C) might have been there, but not necessarily. So that piano-based sketch with probably Carly having contribution to the melody and lyrics was something Mick took with himself from those sessions.

And some day brought it to the IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL sessions. Then enters Mick Taylor who re-arranges the thing to suit to the guitar, and probably, according to his own estimation, adds there things that had a big enough role to the final outcome to claim a co-credit. Probably he alone is responsible for the D/G/A pattern that is constitutive for the whole recording, starting from the intro. Not that isn't anything Jagger could have not done by his own, but for the sake of argument - to make sense of Taylor's claim - let us assume that it his contribition. Or it could be, for example, a middle eight as well. Which reminds me of Jagger' claim from the times of Taylor's departure - and after having confronted with Taylor's claim for credit - that 'adding a chord or a bar doesn't make one a composer' (or something to the effect). It could be very well that a song like "Till The Next Goodbye" might be one of those cases Jagger had in his mind. Nowadays Taylor seems to be a bit more uncertain for his co-credition, speaking mostly of his solos having a big role in the songs (but not necessarily enough, as he admits, for a co-credition. In any case, the latter - solos - can't be the case of "Till The Next Goodbye").

Anyway that was just a way to make some sort of sense of these claims.

What my ears hear is just the song sounding nothing but a pure Jagger ballad from the start to the finish - him composing it with guitar. It basically is just strumming a rather obvious chord sequence (as he does in that promo film). Had Carly written it by a piano there should be a shitload of odd chords and progressions... So I lean on that theory one...

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-21 17:06 by Doxa.

Wait a minute wait a minute
Doxa you’re my Jagger pal thru and thru
but do not go dragging Carly Simon into my GOLD Stones song.
A.) The ‘unearthed’ clip Matt Lee whips out of his back pocket
is nothing. Mick drunk @ 2 am tinkling the ivories maybe 30 seconds b4 bed.
Maybe he took her to bed, she sure likes to brag on her sex life.

I can’t guess guitar bits, but I can tell you this is no fillller.

Gorgeous lush perfection beauty of a song.

‘You give me a cure all from New Orleans
Now that's a recipe I sure do need’

JAZZ FEST 2019



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-21 17:59 by 35love.

Yes - the intro quick change chords from G To A To C back to D - and Taylor's fills on the e and b strings that sound like a mandolin.

Reminds me of the quick chord changes on the intro on waiting on a friend that we have discussed MT came up with.

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35love
Wait a minute wait a minute
Doxa you’re my Jagger pal thru and thru
but do not go dragging Carly Simon into my GOLD Stones song.
A.) The ‘unearthed’ clip Matt Lee whips out of his back pocket
is nothing. Mick drunk @ 2 am tinkling the ivories maybe 30 seconds b4 bed.
Maybe he took her to bed, she sure likes to brag on her sex life.

Haha..sweet 35Love, don't kill a messenger! It was she who dragged herself into that song... My personal opinion is that the song is a thru and thru Jagger song.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-21 18:10 by Doxa.

The middle eight-theory is interesting, Doxa (and not at all unlikely).

Jagger - acoustic
Taylor - acoustic
Richards - slide
Hopkins - piano

I tend to believe Taylor helped Jagger finish this song musically (like Moonlight Mile). Simon may have helped with the lyrics.

Ask yourself: how many songs are musically reminiscent of this after Taylor left? Songs like Tops and Waiting on a Friend sound like songs written with Taylor. Even if his tracks were possibly wiped on one of them, who knows what he contributed during the writing process.

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TravelinMan
Jagger - acoustic
Taylor - acoustic
Richards - slide
Hopkins - piano

I tend to believe Taylor helped Jagger finish this song musically (like Moonlight Mile). Simon may have helped with the lyrics.

Ask yourself: how many songs are musically reminiscent of this after Taylor left? Songs like Tops and Waiting on a Friend sound like songs written with Taylor. Even if his tracks were possibly wiped on one of them, who knows what he contributed during the writing process.

Plenty actually, both on Stones albums and Jagger solos. Take Indian Girl for instance - different arrangement but almost the same song structure wise. Till the Next Goodbye is as Jagger as a Jagger song can be, imho.

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TravelinMan
Jagger - acoustic
Taylor - acoustic
Richards - slide
Hopkins - piano

I tend to believe Taylor helped Jagger finish this song musically (like Moonlight Mile). Simon may have helped with the lyrics.

Ask yourself: how many songs are musically reminiscent of this after Taylor left? Songs like Tops and Waiting on a Friend sound like songs written with Taylor. Even if his tracks were possibly wiped on one of them, who knows what he contributed during the writing process.

Ask yourself:
When has Mick Jagger ever been at a loss for words on his lyrics? Never!
Is Carly Simon’s publicist planting this silly stories?

CARLY SIMON: "We wrote a song together that became a song on the Stones' next album called TILL THE NEXT GOODBYE. I thought that that was going to be a joint venture, but I'd never heard from Mick about how he'd like me to share the royalties. It's the very least I can do to thank Mick for turning what could of been an ordinary record [YOU'RE SO VAIN on which Mick sang backing vocals] into an iconic huge song for me over the years—so, my god, let him take all of my songs and say that he wrote them."

Quote
TravelinMan
Jagger - acoustic
Taylor - acoustic
Richards - slide
Hopkins - piano

I tend to believe Taylor helped Jagger finish this song musically (like Moonlight Mile). Simon may have helped with the lyrics.

Ask yourself: how many songs are musically reminiscent of this after Taylor left? Songs like Tops and Waiting on a Friend sound like songs written with Taylor. Even if his tracks were possibly wiped on one of them, who knows what he contributed during the writing process.

I never really understand this kind of reasoning. The riff of Tops is basically the same riff as Tumbling Dice, but now in minor. And Plundered My Soul is basically Tops and Tumbling Dice thrown together. So it clearly is Keith tossing around, finding his ways through various open G chord voicings. The band just merely jams along with him. All Taylor does is add a lead guitar at the end, and Jagger wrote the lyrics 8 years later.

So what on earth did Taylor contribute in the writing department?

Maybe you should ask yourself: After Taylor left the Stones, has he ever sounded, or have written any piece of music that resembles anything he's done during his Stones days?

Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman
CARLY SIMON: "We wrote a song together that became a song on the Stones' next album called TILL THE NEXT GOODBYE. I thought that that was going to be a joint venture, but I'd never heard from Mick about how he'd like me to share the royalties. It's the very least I can do to thank Mick for turning what could of been an ordinary record [YOU'RE SO VAIN on which Mick sang backing vocals] into an iconic huge song for me over the years—so, my god, let him take all of my songs and say that he wrote them."

Ho Ho Ho, interesting I think.
I looked up Carly. No Louisiana, elderberry wine southern makeshift elixirs,
she is born and bred Bronx, NY.

Not buying it. Mick, as usual, is mum’s the word.

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35love

Quote
TravelinMan
Jagger - acoustic
Taylor - acoustic
Richards - slide
Hopkins - piano

I tend to believe Taylor helped Jagger finish this song musically (like Moonlight Mile). Simon may have helped with the lyrics.

Ask yourself: how many songs are musically reminiscent of this after Taylor left? Songs like Tops and Waiting on a Friend sound like songs written with Taylor. Even if his tracks were possibly wiped on one of them, who knows what he contributed during the writing process.

Ask yourself:
When has Mick Jagger ever been at a loss for words on his lyrics? Never!
Is Carly Simon’s publicist planting this silly stories?

I never said he needed help, it was just a thought based on the fact she said they co-wrote it. I love the song and the lyrics and have come to their defense many times.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-22 14:51 by TravelinMan.

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Mathijs

Quote
TravelinMan
Jagger - acoustic
Taylor - acoustic
Richards - slide
Hopkins - piano

I tend to believe Taylor helped Jagger finish this song musically (like Moonlight Mile). Simon may have helped with the lyrics.

Ask yourself: how many songs are musically reminiscent of this after Taylor left? Songs like Tops and Waiting on a Friend sound like songs written with Taylor. Even if his tracks were possibly wiped on one of them, who knows what he contributed during the writing process.

I never really understand this kind of reasoning. The riff of Tops is basically the same riff as Tumbling Dice, but now in minor. And Plundered My Soul is basically Tops and Tumbling Dice thrown together. So it clearly is Keith tossing around, finding his ways through various open G chord voicings. The band just merely jams along with him. All Taylor does is add a lead guitar at the end, and Jagger wrote the lyrics 8 years later.

So what on earth did Taylor contribute in the writing department?

Maybe you should ask yourself: After Taylor left the Stones, has he ever sounded, or have written any piece of music that resembles anything he's done during his Stones days?

Mathijs

The point is we don't know what he wrote, but we do know what he said he contributed to. I read a Nick Kent interview of Taylor from 1974 in which Taylor specifically said he contributed heavily to Till the Next Goodbye, If You Really Want To Be My Friend, and Time Waits for No One — he was a little surprised he didn't get credit on the sleeve. He also said he was "rather annoyed" he didn't get credit for Moonlight Mile with Jagger. This is from October 1974, when he was still in the band!

I think some of Taylor's songs influenced by his time in the Stones are Broken Hands, Special, and maybe Twisted Sister.

Quote
Mathijs

Quote
TravelinMan
Jagger - acoustic
Taylor - acoustic
Richards - slide
Hopkins - piano

I tend to believe Taylor helped Jagger finish this song musically (like Moonlight Mile). Simon may have helped with the lyrics.

Ask yourself: how many songs are musically reminiscent of this after Taylor left? Songs like Tops and Waiting on a Friend sound like songs written with Taylor. Even if his tracks were possibly wiped on one of them, who knows what he contributed during the writing process.

I never really understand this kind of reasoning. The riff of Tops is basically the same riff as Tumbling Dice, but now in minor. And Plundered My Soul is basically Tops and Tumbling Dice thrown together. So it clearly is Keith tossing around, finding his ways through various open G chord voicings. The band just merely jams along with him. All Taylor does is add a lead guitar at the end, and Jagger wrote the lyrics 8 years later.

So what on earth did Taylor contribute in the writing department?

Maybe you should ask yourself: After Taylor left the Stones, has he ever sounded, or have written any piece of music that resembles anything he's done during his Stones days?

Mathijs

Actually that first Taylor solo album sounded a good bit like the Stones. That was really the thing that struck me - just how Stonesy some of the songs were.
I totally agree with you about that other part: about Keith and various voicings, and/or combination of chords and riffs.
Writers as prolific as Jagger and Keith, especially in their heyday don't always write in a cut and dry manner. It is not always the case that one sits down, and delivers a whole piece with title and identity. Where you say" I wrote this on this date, and it goes like so". Or maybe Taylor then walked in with a finished other part, and we glued in on there, and so we know he wrote that part. It is much more vague; with nudges, and "what do you think of this?". And more so - that a writer will carry around ideas for months or even years, waiting to use it. It can change key, feel, meter. That is why that Carly Simon story is crap.
And that is why ultimately IMO the credits should all read Jagger/Richards. Bill Wyman clunking on the piano with that JJf riff like he says- had Keith not been walking by and said "Hold it! What is that? Let me run with it" and then two days later they come back with a monster. Had that not happened, then the line would always have remained a forgotten few notes that Bill was tinkering with. If Bill Wyman had a history of coming up with stellar 3 minute rockers it would be a different story. Or Taylor with the 'Ventilator" riff. yes it is crucial to the song. Would it ever have turned into Cut 3 on Side 3 of 'Exile' without Mick and Keith taking it over?

Sorry Mathijs; this rant was not directed at you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-22 17:05 by Palace Revolution 2000.

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Palace Revolution 2000

Quote
Mathijs

Quote
TravelinMan
Jagger - acoustic
Taylor - acoustic
Richards - slide
Hopkins - piano

I tend to believe Taylor helped Jagger finish this song musically (like Moonlight Mile). Simon may have helped with the lyrics.

Ask yourself: how many songs are musically reminiscent of this after Taylor left? Songs like Tops and Waiting on a Friend sound like songs written with Taylor. Even if his tracks were possibly wiped on one of them, who knows what he contributed during the writing process.

I never really understand this kind of reasoning. The riff of Tops is basically the same riff as Tumbling Dice, but now in minor. And Plundered My Soul is basically Tops and Tumbling Dice thrown together. So it clearly is Keith tossing around, finding his ways through various open G chord voicings. The band just merely jams along with him. All Taylor does is add a lead guitar at the end, and Jagger wrote the lyrics 8 years later.

So what on earth did Taylor contribute in the writing department?

Maybe you should ask yourself: After Taylor left the Stones, has he ever sounded, or have written any piece of music that resembles anything he's done during his Stones days?

Mathijs

Actually that first Taylor solo album sounded a good bit like the Stones. That was really the thing that struck me - just how Stonesy some of the songs were.
I totally agree with you about that other part: about Keith and various voicings, and/or combination of chords and riffs.
Writers as prolific as Jagger and Keith, especially in their heyday don't always write in a cut and dry manner. It is not always the case that one sits down, and delivers a whole piece with title and identity. Where you say" I wrote this on this date, and it goes like so". Or maybe Taylor then walked in with a finished other part, and we glued in on there, and so we know he wrote that part. It is much more vague; with nudges, and "what do you think of this?". And more so - that a writer will carry around ideas for months or even years, waiting to use it. It can change key, feel, meter. That is why that Carly Simon story is crap.
And that is why ultimately IMO the credits should all read Jagger/Richards. Bill Wyman clunking on the piano with that JJf riff like he says- had Keith not been walking by and said "Hold it! What is that? Let me run with it" and then two days later they come back with a monster. Had that not happened, then the line would always have remained a forgotten few notes that Bill was tinkering with. If Bill Wyman had a history of coming up with stellar 3 minute rockers it would be a different story. Or Taylor with the 'Ventilator" riff. yes it is crucial to the song. Would it ever have turned into Cut 3 on Side 3 of 'Exile' without Mick and Keith taking it over?

Sorry Mathijs; this rant was not directed at you.

Prepare for attacks by the brigade!

I agree for the most part, but then again, would a song like Winter or Moonlight Mile sound like they ended up if Taylor hadn’t contributed? Would they have ever been finished? I think that is the most important piece of information: would the song have been completed without Taylor?

It’s hard to say, it seems Richards didn’t think much of a few songs that Jagger and Taylor worked on. They weren’t his style, or whatever.

If one wants to argue Taylor shouldn’t receive credit, fine, but Richards definitely should not have in a traditional sense. The writing pact made by the two was a bond formed long ago to share everything, regardless of each’s depth of contribution.

In an interview after Taylor’s first solo album he said he got the feeling he was never going to receive writing credit in the band. It may not have been the paramount reason for leaving, but that sort of restricted contribution formed part of his decision.

Quote
TravelinMan
I agree for the most part, but then again, would a song like Winter or Moonlight Mile sound like they ended up if Taylor hadn’t contributed? Would they have ever been finished? I think that is the most important piece of information: would the song have been completed without Taylor?

It’s hard to say, it seems Richards didn’t think much of a few songs that Jagger and Taylor worked on. They weren’t his style, or whatever.

If one wants to argue Taylor shouldn’t receive credit, fine, but Richards definitely should not have in a traditional sense. The writing pact made by the two was a bond formed long ago to share everything, regardless of each’s depth of contribution.

In an interview after Taylor’s first solo album he said he got the feeling he was never going to receive writing credit in the band. It may not have been the paramount reason for leaving, but that sort of restricted contribution formed part of his decision.

Absolutely not. IMO they would have not been completed w/o Taylor. But that is why they are a band. A band is one the most wonderful things on the planet! He added breath taking passages. And that is exactly what he should have been doing: to act his part in this great band. And when all parts were running, the results were astounding.

Quote
TravelinMan
I agree for the most part, but then again, would a song like Winter or Moonlight Mile sound like they ended up if Taylor hadn’t contributed? Would they have ever been finished? I think that is the most important piece of information: would the song have been completed without Taylor?

It’s hard to say, it seems Richards didn’t think much of a few songs that Jagger and Taylor worked on. They weren’t his style, or whatever.

If one wants to argue Taylor shouldn’t receive credit, fine, but Richards definitely should not have in a traditional sense. The writing pact made by the two was a bond formed long ago to share everything, regardless of each’s depth of contribution.

In an interview after Taylor’s first solo album he said he got the feeling he was never going to receive writing credit in the band. It may not have been the paramount reason for leaving, but that sort of restricted contribution formed part of his decision.

Regarding Moonlight Mile, Taylor answers that question himself:

«I had an influence on them. I mean, would Sway have existed without my contribution? Probably, but not the way it does. And the same goes for Moonlight Mile. I remember Mick writing that one in a train carriage on the way from Paddington to Bath».

That tells me that Taylor adds his magic on these tunes and improved them. But that's his job as a guitarist, not songwriting, imo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-22 17:41 by DandelionPowderman.

Sorry but this is one of their worst.What on earth were they thinking with this sappy shite?

Quote
Doxa
Seven pages but not any post from me...

Not much ideas how to judge the song: it is allright, a nice little tune, but nothing really exciting there to make anything more than a good album track in its context. Probably, after "Angie" and some other heavy GOATS HEAD SOUP ballads, it sounds rather light-weighted. Jagger posing a bit too much, but it is charming by its own means. Belongs to the better half of IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL numbers.

But about the mystery credition - which is a mystery in itself: how this little non-special, pretty easy and not much remembered tune gathers so many co-writers... I have two theories how did the things go. Probably both bullshit, but what a hec...

In Spitz's Jagger book, Carly Simon strongly claims having co-written it with Mick during "You's So Vain" sessions. Spitz says that they "fooled around at the piano between the takes", and "nearly came up with another duet". According to Simon 'that became a song on the Stones' next album called "Till The Next Goodbye"'.

Then we have Mick Taylor saying something to the effect that he should have earned a co-credit from the song. Unfortunately I don't recall seeing the direct quote ever, not knowing anything of its context, but just as referred to. I believe those references being accurate.

I don't see reason neither Simon or Taylor intentionally bullshitting there (why should they?).

So, a theory number one:

Just a while popped up a Mick and Carly duet from those "You're So Vain" sessions. There was a litle taster of it in youtube, can't recall its title, but the one Jagger also playing in the beginning of CS BLUES movie at the piano. It was send to Carly and she talked about it in her instagram (or some other social media). Could it be that Carly, when talking to Spitz some yaers ago, misremembered it for "Till The Next Goodbye"? Memory makes tricks. We have to remember that Spitz claims that there was only one other song they played during those sessions.

A similar case could be addressed to Taylor's claim. Could it be posssible that he - or the interviewer - confused "Till The Next Goodbye" with "Time Waits For No One"?

Now, a theory number two:

Let us assume that no misremeberings or confusions - let's take both claims at face value.

Mick and Carla were fooling around at the piano. The core of the song is pretty standard musically, and a typical Jagger ballad by constitution, using I-IV as a basic pattern, enrichening it with some extra chord in refrain. In "You Can't Always Get What You Want" we have C/F, in "Winter" A/D, here we have D/G. Yep, there is that that extra chord of A making a huge impact in the final recording (a guick change to C too), which makes it to sound very guitar-based composition, but fooling around at the piano that probably wasn't such a crucial thing, them (him) just hitting those two basic chords. The A (and C) might have been there, but not necessarily. So that piano-based sketch with probably Carly having contribution to the melody and lyrics was something Mick took with himself from those sessions.

And some day brought it to the IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL sessions. Then enters Mick Taylor who re-arranges the thing to suit to the guitar, and probably, according to his own estimation, adds there things that had a big enough role to the final outcome to claim a co-credit. Probably he alone is responsible for the D/G/A pattern that is constitutive for the whole recording, starting from the intro. Not that isn't anything Jagger could have not done by his own, but for the sake of argument - to make sense of Taylor's claim - let us assume that it his contribition. Or it could be, for example, a middle eight as well. Which reminds me of Jagger' claim from the times of Taylor's departure - and after having confronted with Taylor's claim for credit - that 'adding a chord or a bar doesn't make one a composer' (or something to the effect). It could be very well that a song like "Till The Next Goodbye" might be one of those cases Jagger had in his mind. Nowadays Taylor seems to be a bit more uncertain for his co-credition, speaking mostly of his solos having a big role in the songs (but not necessarily enough, as he admits, for a co-credition. In any case, the latter - solos - can't be the case of "Till The Next Goodbye").

Anyway that was just a way to make some sort of sense of these claims.

What my ears hear is just the song sounding nothing but a pure Jagger ballad from the start to the finish - him composing it with guitar. It basically is just strumming a rather obvious chord sequence (as he does in that promo film). Had Carly written it by a piano there should be a shitload of odd chords and progressions... So I lean on that theory one...

- Doxa

And the midfle eight does sound like Separately

If I may ask, where did the story of Taylor delivering the Ventilator riff come from? Is there any evidence of this?

Quote
z
If I may ask, where did the story of Taylor delivering the Ventilator riff come from? Is there any evidence of this?

The only quote I've seen is Taylor saying he didn't have anything to do with it, hence he was surprised about the credit..

Quote
z
If I may ask, where did the story of Taylor delivering the Ventilator riff come from? Is there any evidence of this?

Interview by Nick Kent, Oct. 1974.


"That was mostly Keith really, that album. The riff for that particular song was mine. Actually I've written quite a few songs with the band — Keith and I did a couple in France that were never recorded."

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-22 18:21 by DandelionPowderman.

Ventilator Blues Quote From Charlie:

In 2003, Watts commented:
We always rehearse ‘Ventilator Blues’ [for tours]. It’s a great track, but we never play it as well as the original. Something will not be quite right; either Keith will play it a bit differently or I’ll do it wrong. It’s a fabulous number, but a bit of a tricky one. Bobby Keys wrote the rhythm part, which is the clever part of the song. Bobby said, ‘Why don’t you do this?’ and I said, ‘I can’t play that,’ so Bobby stood next me to clapping the thing and I just followed his timing. In the world of Take Five , it’s nothing, but it threw me completely and Bobby just stood there and clapped while we were doing the track – and we've never quite got it together as well as that.


MT could of had a part in the Riff I quess

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan
Jagger - acoustic
Taylor - acoustic
Richards - slide
Hopkins - piano

I tend to believe Taylor helped Jagger finish this song musically (like Moonlight Mile). Simon may have helped with the lyrics.

Ask yourself: how many songs are musically reminiscent of this after Taylor left? Songs like Tops and Waiting on a Friend sound like songs written with Taylor. Even if his tracks were possibly wiped on one of them, who knows what he contributed during the writing process.

I never really understand this kind of reasoning. The riff of Tops is basically the same riff as Tumbling Dice, but now in minor. And Plundered My Soul is basically Tops and Tumbling Dice thrown together. So it clearly is Keith tossing around, finding his ways through various open G chord voicings. The band just merely jams along with him. All Taylor does is add a lead guitar at the end, and Jagger wrote the lyrics 8 years later.

So what on earth did Taylor contribute in the writing department?

Maybe you should ask yourself: After Taylor left the Stones, has he ever sounded, or have written any piece of music that resembles anything he's done during his Stones days?

Mathijs

The point is we don't know what he wrote, but we do know what he said he contributed to. I read a Nick Kent interview of Taylor from 1974 in which Taylor specifically said he contributed heavily to Till the Next Goodbye, If You Really Want To Be My Friend, and Time Waits for No One — he was a little surprised he didn't get credit on the sleeve. He also said he was "rather annoyed" he didn't get credit for Moonlight Mile with Jagger. This is from October 1974, when he was still in the band!

I think some of Taylor's songs influenced by his time in the Stones are Broken Hands, Special, and maybe Twisted Sister.

I do think that Taylor's perception of "songwriting" is different than say Jagger and Richards. Taylor listens to the entire song and finds that everybody who plays on it is part of the song i.e. songwriting, more or less. Time WFNO, Shine a Light and Sway are good examples, and there are several more. Jagger and Richards want the entire cake, no matter who played what on it. Written by Jagger and Richards is all that matters to them. Anyway, there are famous bands out there that would have credited every musician that played on the 3 Stones songs I mentioned.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-23 14:23 by TheflyingDutchman.

Quote
TravelinMan

The point is we don't know what he wrote, but we do know what he said he contributed to. I read a Nick Kent interview of Taylor from 1974 in which Taylor specifically said he contributed heavily to Till the Next Goodbye, If You Really Want To Be My Friend, and Time Waits for No One — he was a little surprised he didn't get credit on the sleeve. He also said he was "rather annoyed" he didn't get credit for Moonlight Mile with Jagger. This is from October 1974, when he was still in the band!

Thanks! That confirms that the second half of my first theory doesn't hold court. It was a rather weak hypothesis anyway.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-23 14:43 by Doxa.