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Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: TravelinMan ()
Date: November 30, 2018 04:07

I went back and listened, check out the alternate mix (or take) and it's easy to tell there are three acoustic guitars and who is on which.

Richards - acoustic and electric slide, left channel
Taylor - acoustic, center (1st chorus) then panned right channel
Jagger - acoustic, right channel





Listening to the album version, wow, they really needed Jimmy Miller to help mix this, jeez what an acoustic guitar mess after that first chorus.

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: November 30, 2018 16:44

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Redhotcarpet
Very interesting read, this thread. Thanks Doxa, palace, Dandie ,HM, open g et al. I just wanna add that I view Keith as a typical introvert guy who saught comfort in the guitar and really turned those Berry riffs into something better. Brian was the same with the blues and thats why they were the best. I think the songwriting was very much a forced method by ALO. ”If you cant come up with the hits, we’ll steal them”. The Beatles did just that when they got stuck. I feel fine was based on two songs (watch your step and what d i say). Lennons riff, he created it. The Last time is based on freedom highway and I feel fine (brians riff, he created something new no doubt)Satisfaction was a follow up and stolen from Nowhere to run ( again, a new riff created by Keith who when asked about it probably just mocked Paul for dreaming up Yesterday - which is based on Georgia on my mind). PIB and UMT were both ”stolen” but changed around and re-created by the whole group, Keith and Brian and Mick but also Bill and Charlie. JJF: Keith steals from Bill who based his riff on Satisfaction. Bill created something new but not out of thin air. SFTD - based on Dear mr fantasy, YCAGWYW, based on Feelin alright, Gimme Shelter was perhaps based on I dont know why (wonder) and Keith did a sponge job on Cooder. Just listen to the guitars on Let it bleed and especially Rambler. And yet it’s something new, studio creations if you like.

Ok Im done. For now. grinning smiley

I'm sure artists and musicians work in different ways, but their common practise is clear: They all need inspiration, which never materialise out of thin air.

All the big ones from the 60s let themselves be inspired by their peers and their heroes, or by what was going on in the world around them. Mick and Keith were no exceptions, of course.

However, there is a big difference between a riff, a chord sequence, a lyrical hook and a finished song. That's where I think your analysis is a little shallow. Making a finished song takes a lot of work. If you have a riff sounding a bit like Nowhere To Run, fine - or a chord sequence like Mr. Fantasy, good - the question is what are you going to do with it? You might not even know where you heard it until the song is done. The artists they might consciously or unconsciously heard it from probably didn't write it from scratch, either. Let's face it: The E – D – A chord-sequence was not invented in the late 60s..

The riff is often the very first thing you got. Crafting songs like Paint It Black or Back Street Girl takes a lot more than that. It's called songwriting, and Mick and Keith were quite good at it grinning smiley

No need for diminishing. Did I read a stab at Lennon/McCartney when it comes to songwriting as well? That's priceless! thumbs up
i dont know about stabs but i find the topic interesting. Artists create and steal and recreate.

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Date: November 30, 2018 17:00

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Redhotcarpet
Very interesting read, this thread. Thanks Doxa, palace, Dandie ,HM, open g et al. I just wanna add that I view Keith as a typical introvert guy who saught comfort in the guitar and really turned those Berry riffs into something better. Brian was the same with the blues and thats why they were the best. I think the songwriting was very much a forced method by ALO. ”If you cant come up with the hits, we’ll steal them”. The Beatles did just that when they got stuck. I feel fine was based on two songs (watch your step and what d i say). Lennons riff, he created it. The Last time is based on freedom highway and I feel fine (brians riff, he created something new no doubt)Satisfaction was a follow up and stolen from Nowhere to run ( again, a new riff created by Keith who when asked about it probably just mocked Paul for dreaming up Yesterday - which is based on Georgia on my mind). PIB and UMT were both ”stolen” but changed around and re-created by the whole group, Keith and Brian and Mick but also Bill and Charlie. JJF: Keith steals from Bill who based his riff on Satisfaction. Bill created something new but not out of thin air. SFTD - based on Dear mr fantasy, YCAGWYW, based on Feelin alright, Gimme Shelter was perhaps based on I dont know why (wonder) and Keith did a sponge job on Cooder. Just listen to the guitars on Let it bleed and especially Rambler. And yet it’s something new, studio creations if you like.

Ok Im done. For now. grinning smiley

I'm sure artists and musicians work in different ways, but their common practise is clear: They all need inspiration, which never materialise out of thin air.

All the big ones from the 60s let themselves be inspired by their peers and their heroes, or by what was going on in the world around them. Mick and Keith were no exceptions, of course.

However, there is a big difference between a riff, a chord sequence, a lyrical hook and a finished song. That's where I think your analysis is a little shallow. Making a finished song takes a lot of work. If you have a riff sounding a bit like Nowhere To Run, fine - or a chord sequence like Mr. Fantasy, good - the question is what are you going to do with it? You might not even know where you heard it until the song is done. The artists they might consciously or unconsciously heard it from probably didn't write it from scratch, either. Let's face it: The E – D – A chord-sequence was not invented in the late 60s..

The riff is often the very first thing you got. Crafting songs like Paint It Black or Back Street Girl takes a lot more than that. It's called songwriting, and Mick and Keith were quite good at it grinning smiley

No need for diminishing. Did I read a stab at Lennon/McCartney when it comes to songwriting as well? That's priceless! thumbs up
i dont know about stabs but i find the topic interesting. Artists create and steal and recreate.

The thing you said about PIB (Charlie, Bill and Brian) is interesting. I must admit I never thought of the organ pedals before I read the story about Bill. It's funny that he never even touched the keyboard during the recording process grinning smiley

And Mick suggested how Charlie should play on PIB (or he nicked it off some old soul record, like he said in an interview).

A jazz session guy walks in with a sitar in his pyjamas (in LA), and they all said: Oh, let Brian try that for PIB!

These anecdotes show a band in their prime. Still curious and very much exploring.

But it is arranging and recording we're talking about here, not songwriting.

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: RoughJusticeOnYa ()
Date: November 30, 2018 20:51

Quote
nightskyman
It's charming initially, for first verse, bridge and chorus (when Keith's vocals appear). The acoustic guitar chords/rhythm while repetitive are interesting enough. I don't have a problem with the lyrics, that's the charm of the song actually (a typical ballad).

The problem is it's repetitive and too long and thus gets annoying as it proceeds. It's difficult for me personally to listen to all the way through.

Charlie makes all the difference - nothing ‘repetitive’ about that song, thanx to him.

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: November 30, 2018 21:33

Quote
DandelionPowderman


But it is arranging and recording we're talking about here, not songwriting.

We don't know much about how complete the songs were when they were presented. Or, if they even were presented and didn't come out of them jamming and trying out ideas.

Keith often say's he prefers to present rough ideas and let the band do it's thing.

It's inconceivable to me that the songs were never changed or influenced by arrangement ideas or things played when jamming etc. The main song writers were/are influenced heavily by music from out with the band, why would they not be influenced by the music of the band members?

Still, Mick and especially Keith are for sure the main instigators and writers, but, there is that space in the process of how they worked for the others to affect the songs that weren't so complete and so on.

PIB is interesting as it seems to involve them all so much, and the main essential of the melody is nicked.

It's one of their best songs and recordings and it's very much a team effort.

Nanker Phelge does seem to be the most appropriate credit for it.

...

The Brian Jones Resource



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-30 21:44 by His Majesty.

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: November 30, 2018 21:36

Quote
DandelionPowderman


A jazz session guy walks in with a sitar in his pyjamas (in LA), and they all said: Oh, let Brian try that for PIB!

That was just a joke. grinning smiley

...

The Brian Jones Resource

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Date: December 1, 2018 00:05

<Keith often say's he prefers to present rough ideas and let the band do it's thing>

In 1966?

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Date: December 1, 2018 00:07

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
DandelionPowderman


A jazz session guy walks in with a sitar in his pyjamas (in LA), and they all said: Oh, let Brian try that for PIB!

That was just a joke. grinning smiley

grinning smiley

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: December 2, 2018 21:38

Have you ever tried to steal a riff or a lick and build a new song from that? I did once. I took a part of a riff or "structure" by Keith, stole it - changed the rhythm and ot turned into something else. It is a method for sure.

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Date: December 3, 2018 10:21

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Have you ever tried to steal a riff or a lick and build a new song from that? I did once. I took a part of a riff or "structure" by Keith, stole it - changed the rhythm and ot turned into something else. It is a method for sure.

Check out the album «Electric» by the Cult. The whole album is built on stolen riffs. It was Rick Rubin's suggestion. The album they had ready before they hired him sounded totally different. Yep, Start Me Up is in there, too, so is Problem Child by AC/DC, White Room by Cream and others smiling smiley

Not a clever way of writing, and the Stones were too smart to do it like that. Remember that the only thing missing in Nowhere To Run compared to Satisfaction is... the riff and the melody. So it's the vibe that is nicked, not the song.

PS: If you must nick something, don't nick the riff and build a song on it. Use a part of in a transition or to underline what you wrote yourself. The effect will be that no one will think of it as theft..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-03 10:22 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: December 3, 2018 15:11

Tthanks! Well i didnt steal Brown Sugar, i stole a lick and changed it around a little (the rhythm but also the way it fita the rest of the riff, my own little creation - it’s impossible to hear the source now.

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Date: December 3, 2018 16:29

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Tthanks! Well i didnt steal Brown Sugar, i stole a lick and changed it around a little (the rhythm but also the way it fita the rest of the riff, my own little creation - it’s impossible to hear the source now.

Are you by all means Keith Richards ? cool smiley

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: December 3, 2018 19:08

just tune your guitar to open tunings and those keith riffs just keep coming from the heavens

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: December 3, 2018 19:29

I find to get motivated and find a new riff - just pay monkey man( I think Keith's greatest riff ever( and not in open tunings) or Live With Me and just go off and in no time you will have something. LOL

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: exhpart ()
Date: December 3, 2018 21:12

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Quote
Redhotcarpet
Tthanks! Well i didnt steal Brown Sugar, i stole a lick and changed it around a little (the rhythm but also the way it fita the rest of the riff, my own little creation - it’s impossible to hear the source now.

Are you by all means Keith Richards ? cool smiley

I always knew BS was Jaggers?

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: December 3, 2018 21:13

Perhaps i was too vague but i think it’s an interesting topic. When you go from that autistic method of just playing and searching to making a decision to use a specific part, a lick, some notes, from an already existing song. Keith didnt happen to play Satisfaction - he heard Nowhere to run and used that horn riff. I feel fine was created the same way.

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Date: December 3, 2018 22:02

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Perhaps i was too vague but i think it’s an interesting topic. When you go from that autistic method of just playing and searching to making a decision to use a specific part, a lick, some notes, from an already existing song. Keith didnt happen to play Satisfaction - he heard Nowhere to run and used that horn riff. I feel fine was created the same way.

Correction: He heard what was missing in the horn notes (not really a riff) smoking smiley

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Date: December 3, 2018 22:18

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Perhaps i was too vague but i think it’s an interesting topic. When you go from that autistic method of just playing and searching to making a decision to use a specific part, a lick, some notes, from an already existing song. Keith didnt happen to play Satisfaction - he heard Nowhere to run and used that horn riff. I feel fine was created the same way.

He probably did, and without inspiration no new music. What's the fuzz all about one might ask. The Ventures - The 2000 Pound Bee perhaps- 1962 ?

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Date: December 4, 2018 14:29

I like it when I think I can trace a song idea that travels through various permutations; maybe of time zones, or tempo and key changes.
What I mean is that often a writer will have a certain idea tucked away; could be lyrically, could be musically. And he knows it is a solid idea, and is waiting for the right circumstance to let it go. Just a small example is Jagger with 'wrap my coat around you" in a quiet moment of a song. He obviously knew he was going to use it; tired it on "red Blood Wine" but pulled it up again for "Winter".
I have been listening to the '77 Pathe Marconi sessions round and round for last week. Obviously there's Jagger going for the 3 chord fast songs. But you see 'Everlasting is my Love" in all different settings.
And now I am thinking that "It's a Lie" is really the same song as "Never Make you Cry". (whew it took me all that just to say this last sentence.)

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: December 4, 2018 20:47

Its ironic that Mick Taylor got a song credit with John Mayall in 1967 on Crusade on Snowy Wood the instrumental with MT's guitar driving the whole song. The opening guitar riff is the basis for the whole song and I wonder if Mayall contributed anything to MT's guitar lines and the idea or just had to give himself also credit on Snowy Wood. MT had to wait with the stones until Exile to get song credit on Ventilator.

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Date: December 4, 2018 22:20

Quote
OpenG
Its ironic that Mick Taylor got a song credit with John Mayall in 1967 on Crusade on Snowy Wood the instrumental with MT's guitar driving the whole song. The opening guitar riff is the basis for the whole song and I wonder if Mayall contributed anything to MT's guitar lines and the idea or just had to give himself also credit on Snowy Wood. MT had to wait with the stones until Exile to get song credit on Ventilator.

Since we don't have more information about the creation of it, isn't it a stretch to call it ironic? Mayall could have had the chords down and asked Taylor to play good on top of it, which he did.

Taylor could also have bettered Mayall's earlier take on the intro riff, for what we know.

Or Taylor wrote it all, who knows? smiling smiley

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: December 4, 2018 23:20

The song credit is listed as Taylor/Mayall for watever thats worth or whatever that means. LOL

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: schillid ()
Date: December 4, 2018 23:37


Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: December 5, 2018 13:06

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
I like it when I think I can trace a song idea that travels through various permutations; maybe of time zones, or tempo and key changes.
What I mean is that often a writer will have a certain idea tucked away; could be lyrically, could be musically. And he knows it is a solid idea, and is waiting for the right circumstance to let it go. Just a small example is Jagger with 'wrap my coat around you" in a quiet moment of a song. He obviously knew he was going to use it; tired it on "red Blood Wine" but pulled it up again for "Winter".
I have been listening to the '77 Pathe Marconi sessions round and round for last week. Obviously there's Jagger going for the 3 chord fast songs. But you see 'Everlasting is my Love" in all different settings.
And now I am thinking that "It's a Lie" is really the same song as "Never Make you Cry". (whew it took me all that just to say this last sentence.)

Me too! The craft (s) of songwriting, how it’s done and percieved by other artists and listeners is interesting. Some songs seem to emerge into a collective consciousness as if reproduced but every now and then we’re challenged.

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: December 5, 2018 16:21

Keith gave Mick the best part for me on Memory Motel - Shes Kind a Mind of her own and she uses it well.That has stayed with me as a stones fan. Its just a great honest lyric. I was floored when Keith started to play it on piano on the NETFLIX documentary Under The Influence - of all the stuff Keith could of played blues boogie he remembered that awesome lyric and music.

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Date: December 5, 2018 17:16

Quote
OpenG
Keith gave Mick the best part for me on Memory Motel - Shes Kind a Mind of her own and she uses it well.That has stayed with me as a stones fan. Its just a great honest lyric. I was floored when Keith started to play it on piano on the NETFLIX documentary Under The Influence - of all the stuff Keith could of played blues boogie he remembered that awesome lyric and music.

I also think Keith gave some great parts for that song; but I always hear it in another place: it is that low harmony that Keith brings in, in his most velvety voice "..and she began to play , she sang a song to me, stuck..."

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Date: December 5, 2018 17:31

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Quote
OpenG
Keith gave Mick the best part for me on Memory Motel - Shes Kind a Mind of her own and she uses it well.That has stayed with me as a stones fan. Its just a great honest lyric. I was floored when Keith started to play it on piano on the NETFLIX documentary Under The Influence - of all the stuff Keith could of played blues boogie he remembered that awesome lyric and music.

I also think Keith gave some great parts for that song; but I always hear it in another place: it is that low harmony that Keith brings in, in his most velvety voice "..and she began to play , she sang a song to me, stuck..."

Yeah, that part is pure goosebumps to me thumbs up

That one and «And I'll never stop believing in her smile...» from We Had It All.

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: December 5, 2018 17:51

I get the same feeling from Jaggers great lyric on Winter - finally jagger giving a honest feeling

Sometimes I think about you, baby
Sometimes I cry about you, Lord
Yeah, and I wanna wrap my coat around you
Yeah, I wrap my coat around you
Yeah, I wanna wrap my coat around
Baby, sometimes I wanna keep you warm
Sometimes I wanna wrap my coat around you
Sometimes I wanna but I can't afford you

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: December 5, 2018 18:05

Also I was floored watching the EXILE DVD with the bonus interviews when Sheryl Crow said loved Mick Taylor - I never expected that

Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by: mattleeuk ()
Date: January 22, 2019 00:31

Actually there are 5 tracks (six takes), Carly was very happy that I sent them all to her.

Quote
35love
Wait a minute wait a minute
Doxa you’re my Jagger pal thru and thru
but do not go dragging Carly Simon into my GOLD Stones song.
A.) The ‘unearthed’ clip eye rolling smiley Matt Lee whips out of his back pocket
is nothing. Mick drunk @ 2 am tinkling the ivories maybe 30 seconds b4 bed.
Maybe he took her to bed, she sure likes to brag on her sex life.

I can’t guess guitar bits, but I can tell you this is no fillller.

Gorgeous lush perfection beauty of a song.

‘You give me a cure all from New Orleans
Now that's a recipe I sure do need’

JAZZ FEST 2019

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