Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Very interesting read, this thread. Thanks Doxa, palace, Dandie ,HM, open g et al. I just wanna add that I view Keith as a typical introvert guy who saught comfort in the guitar and really turned those Berry riffs into something better. Brian was the same with the blues and thats why they were the best. I think the songwriting was very much a forced method by ALO. ”If you cant come up with the hits, we’ll steal them”. The Beatles did just that when they got stuck. I feel fine was based on two songs (watch your step and what d i say). Lennons riff, he created it. The Last time is based on freedom highway and I feel fine (brians riff, he created something new no doubt)Satisfaction was a follow up and stolen from Nowhere to run ( again, a new riff created by Keith who when asked about it probably just mocked Paul for dreaming up Yesterday - which is based on Georgia on my mind). PIB and UMT were both ”stolen” but changed around and re-created by the whole group, Keith and Brian and Mick but also Bill and Charlie. JJF: Keith steals from Bill who based his riff on Satisfaction. Bill created something new but not out of thin air. SFTD - based on Dear mr fantasy, YCAGWYW, based on Feelin alright, Gimme Shelter was perhaps based on I dont know why (wonder) and Keith did a sponge job on Cooder. Just listen to the guitars on Let it bleed and especially Rambler. And yet it’s something new, studio creations if you like.

Ok Im done. For now.

I'm sure artists and musicians work in different ways, but their common practise is clear: They all need inspiration, which never materialise out of thin air.

All the big ones from the 60s let themselves be inspired by their peers and their heroes, or by what was going on in the world around them. Mick and Keith were no exceptions, of course.

However, there is a big difference between a riff, a chord sequence, a lyrical hook and a finished song. That's where I think your analysis is a little shallow. Making a finished song takes a lot of work. If you have a riff sounding a bit like Nowhere To Run, fine - or a chord sequence like Mr. Fantasy, good - the question is what are you going to do with it? You might not even know where you heard it until the song is done. The artists they might consciously or unconsciously heard it from probably didn't write it from scratch, either. Let's face it: The E – D – A chord-sequence was not invented in the late 60s..

The riff is often the very first thing you got. Crafting songs like Paint It Black or Back Street Girl takes a lot more than that. It's called songwriting, and Mick and Keith were quite good at it

No need for diminishing. Did I read a stab at Lennon/McCartney when it comes to songwriting as well? That's priceless!

Quote
Redhotcarpet

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Very interesting read, this thread. Thanks Doxa, palace, Dandie ,HM, open g et al. I just wanna add that I view Keith as a typical introvert guy who saught comfort in the guitar and really turned those Berry riffs into something better. Brian was the same with the blues and thats why they were the best. I think the songwriting was very much a forced method by ALO. ”If you cant come up with the hits, we’ll steal them”. The Beatles did just that when they got stuck. I feel fine was based on two songs (watch your step and what d i say). Lennons riff, he created it. The Last time is based on freedom highway and I feel fine (brians riff, he created something new no doubt)Satisfaction was a follow up and stolen from Nowhere to run ( again, a new riff created by Keith who when asked about it probably just mocked Paul for dreaming up Yesterday - which is based on Georgia on my mind). PIB and UMT were both ”stolen” but changed around and re-created by the whole group, Keith and Brian and Mick but also Bill and Charlie. JJF: Keith steals from Bill who based his riff on Satisfaction. Bill created something new but not out of thin air. SFTD - based on Dear mr fantasy, YCAGWYW, based on Feelin alright, Gimme Shelter was perhaps based on I dont know why (wonder) and Keith did a sponge job on Cooder. Just listen to the guitars on Let it bleed and especially Rambler. And yet it’s something new, studio creations if you like.

Ok Im done. For now.

I'm sure artists and musicians work in different ways, but their common practise is clear: They all need inspiration, which never materialise out of thin air.

All the big ones from the 60s let themselves be inspired by their peers and their heroes, or by what was going on in the world around them. Mick and Keith were no exceptions, of course.

However, there is a big difference between a riff, a chord sequence, a lyrical hook and a finished song. That's where I think your analysis is a little shallow. Making a finished song takes a lot of work. If you have a riff sounding a bit like Nowhere To Run, fine - or a chord sequence like Mr. Fantasy, good - the question is what are you going to do with it? You might not even know where you heard it until the song is done. The artists they might consciously or unconsciously heard it from probably didn't write it from scratch, either. Let's face it: The E – D – A chord-sequence was not invented in the late 60s..

The riff is often the very first thing you got. Crafting songs like Paint It Black or Back Street Girl takes a lot more than that. It's called songwriting, and Mick and Keith were quite good at it

No need for diminishing. Did I read a stab at Lennon/McCartney when it comes to songwriting as well? That's priceless!

i dont know about stabs but i find the topic interesting. Artists create and steal and recreate.

Quote
nightskyman
It's charming initially, for first verse, bridge and chorus (when Keith's vocals appear). The acoustic guitar chords/rhythm while repetitive are interesting enough. I don't have a problem with the lyrics, that's the charm of the song actually (a typical ballad).

The problem is it's repetitive and too long and thus gets annoying as it proceeds. It's difficult for me personally to listen to all the way through.

Quote
DandelionPowderman


But it is arranging and recording we're talking about here, not songwriting.

Quote
DandelionPowderman


A jazz session guy walks in with a sitar in his pyjamas (in LA), and they all said: Oh, let Brian try that for PIB!

Quote
His Majesty

Quote
DandelionPowderman


A jazz session guy walks in with a sitar in his pyjamas (in LA), and they all said: Oh, let Brian try that for PIB!

That was just a joke.

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Have you ever tried to steal a riff or a lick and build a new song from that? I did once. I took a part of a riff or "structure" by Keith, stole it - changed the rhythm and ot turned into something else. It is a method for sure.

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Tthanks! Well i didnt steal Brown Sugar, i stole a lick and changed it around a little (the rhythm but also the way it fita the rest of the riff, my own little creation - it’s impossible to hear the source now.

Quote
TheflyingDutchman

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Tthanks! Well i didnt steal Brown Sugar, i stole a lick and changed it around a little (the rhythm but also the way it fita the rest of the riff, my own little creation - it’s impossible to hear the source now.

Are you by all means Keith Richards ?

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Perhaps i was too vague but i think it’s an interesting topic. When you go from that autistic method of just playing and searching to making a decision to use a specific part, a lick, some notes, from an already existing song. Keith didnt happen to play Satisfaction - he heard Nowhere to run and used that horn riff. I feel fine was created the same way.

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Perhaps i was too vague but i think it’s an interesting topic. When you go from that autistic method of just playing and searching to making a decision to use a specific part, a lick, some notes, from an already existing song. Keith didnt happen to play Satisfaction - he heard Nowhere to run and used that horn riff. I feel fine was created the same way.

Quote
OpenG
Its ironic that Mick Taylor got a song credit with John Mayall in 1967 on Crusade on Snowy Wood the instrumental with MT's guitar driving the whole song. The opening guitar riff is the basis for the whole song and I wonder if Mayall contributed anything to MT's guitar lines and the idea or just had to give himself also credit on Snowy Wood. MT had to wait with the stones until Exile to get song credit on Ventilator.

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
I like it when I think I can trace a song idea that travels through various permutations; maybe of time zones, or tempo and key changes.
What I mean is that often a writer will have a certain idea tucked away; could be lyrically, could be musically. And he knows it is a solid idea, and is waiting for the right circumstance to let it go. Just a small example is Jagger with 'wrap my coat around you" in a quiet moment of a song. He obviously knew he was going to use it; tired it on "red Blood Wine" but pulled it up again for "Winter".
I have been listening to the '77 Pathe Marconi sessions round and round for last week. Obviously there's Jagger going for the 3 chord fast songs. But you see 'Everlasting is my Love" in all different settings.
And now I am thinking that "It's a Lie" is really the same song as "Never Make you Cry". (whew it took me all that just to say this last sentence.)

Quote
OpenG
Keith gave Mick the best part for me on Memory Motel - Shes Kind a Mind of her own and she uses it well.That has stayed with me as a stones fan. Its just a great honest lyric. I was floored when Keith started to play it on piano on the NETFLIX documentary Under The Influence - of all the stuff Keith could of played blues boogie he remembered that awesome lyric and music.

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000

Quote
OpenG
Keith gave Mick the best part for me on Memory Motel - Shes Kind a Mind of her own and she uses it well.That has stayed with me as a stones fan. Its just a great honest lyric. I was floored when Keith started to play it on piano on the NETFLIX documentary Under The Influence - of all the stuff Keith could of played blues boogie he remembered that awesome lyric and music.

I also think Keith gave some great parts for that song; but I always hear it in another place: it is that low harmony that Keith brings in, in his most velvety voice "..and she began to play , she sang a song to me, stuck..."

Quote
35love
Wait a minute wait a minute
Doxa you’re my Jagger pal thru and thru
but do not go dragging Carly Simon into my GOLD Stones song.
A.) The ‘unearthed’ clip Matt Lee whips out of his back pocket
is nothing. Mick drunk @ 2 am tinkling the ivories maybe 30 seconds b4 bed.
Maybe he took her to bed, she sure likes to brag on her sex life.

I can’t guess guitar bits, but I can tell you this is no fillller.

Gorgeous lush perfection beauty of a song.

‘You give me a cure all from New Orleans
Now that's a recipe I sure do need’

JAZZ FEST 2019