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TheflyingDutchman


!963.Dressed Up Copy Cats. They never really grew up, that's the good news.

That's not self parody though.

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Doxa


My point: just trying to explicate why I see that Charlie's right when saying that Ronnie added nothing, even if song-writing is concerned. That of offering a couple of second-rate songs (by the Stones scale) means nothing. Ronnie's greatness and significance lies in somewhere else and I think it is hopeless even try to explain his contribution to evolution of their music by the manner of the contribution of Brian and Taylor (I am sure Ronnie himself would be the first to admit that). By the time Ronnie came along, they were too old and established to really learning new tricks or being musically challenged by some new voice.

- Doxa

Ronnie added a degree of the character of the Faces, but unfortunately wasn't allowed to add so much of the best musical aspects from it.

Pissed up party time with all the fun and mishaps that comes with it.

After the intensity of the previous years, understandable that they might not have wanted to stay in that atmosphere any more.

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His Majesty

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TheflyingDutchman


!963.Dressed Up Copy Cats. They never really grew up, that's the good news.

That's not self parody though.

Matter of interpretation...something to think about.

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TheflyingDutchman

Matter of interpretation...something to think about.

It's not. It's just you trying to put something that was said about them from around 1973 on to 1963.

.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-18 06:41 by SomeGuy.

If one is allowed to speculate...: What I think would have ignited som life in the latter days RS would have been new blood in the guitar section
(imagine Ron would have put all his effort in arts instead) like Waddy Wachtel or Jimmy Rip. Would have a) inspired Keith (and Mick) and b) covered for his lacking abilities.
A rock and roll bassist. Everything but Darryl. A percussionist complementing Charlie. One good saxophone player (like Earnie Watts) instead of a boring horn section.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-18 10:37 by Stoneage.

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TornAndFried

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PhillyFAN

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TheflyingDutchman

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HMS

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TheflyingDutchman
There's no use in writing tons of post about a musician you don't think much of.

it is my undisputed duty to right a wrong

Thank You, HMS, Thank You!.

Here is RW attempting to replicate MT's solo on Gimme Shelter 1975.

[www.youtube.com]

Not bad but it's a far cry from the fluid left hand hammer-ons and pull-offs and emotive string bending and vibrato Mick Taylor exhibited when he played Gimme Shelter live in 1972/3. And mind you, this is when Ronnie was at his peak, musically. His technical skills have deteriorated exponentially since the 70's. His guitar tone is weak here too.

Not even once does he try to replicate anything Taylor did here. Funny



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-18 10:35 by DandelionPowderman.

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His Majesty

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TheflyingDutchman

Matter of interpretation...something to think about.

It's not. It's just you trying to put something that was said about them from around 1973 on to 1963.

No. In '63, or even '62 they definitely knew who or what inspired them, and then they very well understood how to sell it, pr-wise.The music was good, the looks, long hair, provocations,.. smart guys. That actually never changed until say 1981.

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DandelionPowderman

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TornAndFried

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PhillyFAN

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TheflyingDutchman

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HMS

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TheflyingDutchman
There's no use in writing tons of post about a musician you don't think much of.

it is my undisputed duty to right a wrong

Thank You, HMS, Thank You!.

Here is RW attempting to replicate MT's solo on Gimme Shelter 1975.

[www.youtube.com]

Not bad but it's a far cry from the fluid left hand hammer-ons and pull-offs and emotive string bending and vibrato Mick Taylor exhibited when he played Gimme Shelter live in 1972/3. And mind you, this is when Ronnie was at his peak, musically. His technical skills have deteriorated exponentially since the 70's. His guitar tone is weak here too.

Not even once does he try to replicate anything Taylor did here. Funny

I've always felt that Ronnie approaches MT's legacy with just the right degree of respect.

He often reproduces the most inspired & memorable sections of MT's solos, where they are an important part of the song, and recognising the unique brilliance that conceived them.

Other times Ronnie does his own thing.

My only frustration is in wishing that we got a bit more of the type of playing he did with the Faces .

I suspect it's the "folk"ier side of it that isn't perceived to fit.

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DandelionPowderman

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TornAndFried

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PhillyFAN

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TheflyingDutchman

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HMS

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TheflyingDutchman
There's no use in writing tons of post about a musician you don't think much of.

it is my undisputed duty to right a wrong

Thank You, HMS, Thank You!.

Here is RW attempting to replicate MT's solo on Gimme Shelter 1975.

[www.youtube.com]

Not bad but it's a far cry from the fluid left hand hammer-ons and pull-offs and emotive string bending and vibrato Mick Taylor exhibited when he played Gimme Shelter live in 1972/3. And mind you, this is when Ronnie was at his peak, musically. His technical skills have deteriorated exponentially since the 70's. His guitar tone is weak here too.

Not even once does he try to replicate anything Taylor did here. Funny

The resemblance is striking, the tone, copied licks and all, pure Taylor imitation, but a failed attempt, in the end. But at least Ronnie did try to play well at the time. I even liked Ronnies playing on Love You Live. By the time Some Girls was done they obviously had given that up.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-18 16:09 by SomeGuy.

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Stoneage
If one is allowed to speculate...: What I think would have ignited som life in the latter days RS would have been new blood in the guitar section
(imagine Ron would have put all his effort in arts instead) like Waddy Wachtel or Jimmy Rip. Would have a) inspired Keith (and Mick) and b) covered for his lacking abilities.
A rock and roll bassist. Everything but Darryl. A percussionist complementing Charlie. One good saxophone player (like Earnie Watts) instead of a boring horn section.

Keep Waddle away from the band. He is soooo bog standard.

Replace Keith with Taylor and ditch the whole stadium/warhorses thing.

Taylor and Wood played well together st 100 club.

An alt stones could be interesting. Mick Jagger joining Mick Taylor, Dick Taylor and Ronnie Wood. Bill would be game.

Keith and Charlie can stay home to exchange shitty messages about Brian via carrier pigeon.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-18 16:24 by His Majesty.

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SomeGuy

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DandelionPowderman

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TornAndFried

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PhillyFAN

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TheflyingDutchman

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HMS

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TheflyingDutchman
There's no use in writing tons of post about a musician you don't think much of.

it is my undisputed duty to right a wrong

Thank You, HMS, Thank You!.

Here is RW attempting to replicate MT's solo on Gimme Shelter 1975.

[www.youtube.com]

Not bad but it's a far cry from the fluid left hand hammer-ons and pull-offs and emotive string bending and vibrato Mick Taylor exhibited when he played Gimme Shelter live in 1972/3. And mind you, this is when Ronnie was at his peak, musically. His technical skills have deteriorated exponentially since the 70's. His guitar tone is weak here too.

Not even once does he try to replicate anything Taylor did here. Funny

The resemblance is striking, the tone, copied licks and all, pure Taylor imitation, but a failed attempt, in the end. But at least Ronnie did try to play well at the time. I even liked Ronnies playing on Love You Live. By the time Some Girls was done they obviously had given that up.

Taylor always enters his solos with themes/motifs/planned long phrasings. GS is a good example of that approach. Often, he uses 3 or 4 of those "pegs". Very rarely, he gets lost - but if he does we get some interesting stuff that differs from the solos we have heard before. He's very good at that.

Ronnie, on the other hand, has a totally different approach. His phrasings are usually very short, and he starts over again - usually with a wing it-approach. The music is made on the spot. This was especially typical for him in 75-82.

What we hear on this and other renditions of GS bears no resemblance to Taylor's phrasings, sound, approach or licks whatsoever. Two completely different styles.

There are songs, however, where he kept some of Taylor's licks as a homage to their importance to the songs. All Down The Line and his bass playing on Fingerprint File are two examples.

I think you are mixing the effect of Ronnie's heavier guitar sound and his lead guitar role with his actual playing on GS here. They are somewhat similar, though.

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DandelionPowderman

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SomeGuy

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DandelionPowderman

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TornAndFried

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PhillyFAN

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TheflyingDutchman

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HMS

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TheflyingDutchman
There's no use in writing tons of post about a musician you don't think much of.

it is my undisputed duty to right a wrong

Thank You, HMS, Thank You!.

Here is RW attempting to replicate MT's solo on Gimme Shelter 1975.

[www.youtube.com]

Not bad but it's a far cry from the fluid left hand hammer-ons and pull-offs and emotive string bending and vibrato Mick Taylor exhibited when he played Gimme Shelter live in 1972/3. And mind you, this is when Ronnie was at his peak, musically. His technical skills have deteriorated exponentially since the 70's. His guitar tone is weak here too.

Not even once does he try to replicate anything Taylor did here. Funny

The resemblance is striking, the tone, copied licks and all, pure Taylor imitation, but a failed attempt, in the end. But at least Ronnie did try to play well at the time. I even liked Ronnies playing on Love You Live. By the time Some Girls was done they obviously had given that up.

Taylor always enters his solos with themes/motifs/planned long phrasings. GS is a good example of that approach. Often, he uses 3 or 4 of those "pegs". Very rarely, he gets lost - but if he does we get some interesting stuff that differs from the solos we have heard before. He's very good at that.

Ronnie, on the other hand, has a totally different approach. His phrasings are usually very short, and he starts over again - usually with a wing it-approach. The music is made on the spot. This was especially typical for him in 75-82.

What we hear on this and other renditions of GS bears no resemblance to Taylor's phrasings, sound, approach or licks whatsoever. Two completely different styles.

There are songs, however, where he kept some of Taylor's licks as a homage to their importance to the songs. All Down The Line and his bass playing on Fingerprint File are two examples.

I think you are mixing the effect of Ronnie's heavier guitar sound and his lead guitar role with his actual playing on GS here. They are somewhat similar, though.

I think that we both are arguing the same thing here, really.

After studying Taylor's playing closely for 35 years I can't agree with this, though. It's just... wrong.


<The resemblance is striking, the tone, copied licks and all, pure Taylor imitation>

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DandelionPowderman
After studying Taylor's playing closely for 35 years I can't agree with this, though. It's just... wrong.

I too, have been studying Taylor's and Ronnies playing for close to four decades. It seems we sort of hear the same things but draw opposite conclusions from them. You should have quoted me properly, I also said he failed at the attempt. Because, indeed, no themes/motives/planned long phrasings with Ronnie. If you compare GS played from '95 on you should find that Ronnie sounds nothing like Taylor, whereas I, and others on this forum, detect a similarity on the '75 recording presented here, which means that at that time apparently Ronnie did sometimes try to emulate Taylorlike solos, which is not that weird because Ronnie was after all Taylors replacement/fill in guy. This was before Keith decided to 'go back' to the weaving concept and get rid of the lead/rhythm division between players.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-18 17:01 by SomeGuy.

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SomeGuy

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DandelionPowderman
After studying Taylor's playing closely for 35 years I can't agree with this, though. It's just... wrong.

I too, have been studying Taylor's and Ronnies playing for close to four decades. It seems we sort of hear the same things but draw opposite conclusions from them. You should have quoted me properly, I also said he failed at the attempt. Because, indeed, no themes/motives/planned long phrasings with Ronnie. If you compare GS played from '95 on you should find that Ronnie sounds nothing like Taylor, whereas I, and others on this forum, detect a similarity on the '75 recording presented here, which means that at that time apparently Ronnie did sometimes try to emulate Taylorlike solos, which is not that weird because Ronnie was after all Taylors replacement/fill in guy. This was before Keith decided to 'go back' to the weaving concept and get rid of the lead/rhythm division between players.

We only disagree about the copying-part. I already said that the effect of his playing was somewhat similar in 75/76. There is a huge difference, though, namely within the very playing. I can't fathom that you hear similar licks, copying or any resemblance playing-wise on GS. Ronnie's solos were different every night, whereas Taylor had his framework with recognisable licks and phrasings. Ronnie didn't include any of those, unlike with ADTL, as mentioned earlier.

We'll just gonna have to agree to disagree if you don't hear this.

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SomeGuy
If you compare GS played from '95 on you should find that Ronnie sounds nothing like Taylor, whereas I, and others on this forum, detect a similarity on the '75 recording presented here, which means that at that time apparently Ronnie did sometimes try to emulate Taylorlike solos, which is not that weird because Ronnie was after all Taylors replacement/fill in guy. This was before Keith decided to 'go back' to the weaving concept and get rid of the lead/rhythm division between players.

It is true that the arrangements of the guitar parts of the 75/76 tour were quite similar to those of the previous 72/73 tours, i.e. a rather distinct separation between lead and rythm, but it is extremely unlikely that it had much to do with Ronnie copying Taylor.

First Ronnie had just joined the band, so to start with it was easier for him to improvise solos, rather than developing new arrangements as was done during the Some Girls sessions.

Second, Ronnie might have seen the stones live in 72/73 (I never read that he did) but unless he was a Stones boot collector he had no material to study Taylor live in those years.

Third, Ronnie's solos in 75/76 with the Stones are the same style, licks etc of what he did earlier with the Faces.

C

Great lead work by Ronnie there but sounds different from MT IMHO.

wokay

Based on their quotes about Ronnie, I bet Charlie and Mick were disappointed in the quality and sound during the 75/76 tour compared to previous tours.
Then when it came time to work on Some Girls, it might have been a case of 'too late now, we're kind of stuck with him'.
Wonder if Mick ever thought about sacking him around that time while Keith was in the thick of his personal problems...

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

They were so disappointed that they rushed to make their first double live album...

They probably wanted to milk it for all it was worth, but the results of that album leave a bit to be desired in many ways.

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

In your opinion, that is. I have heard very few complaints about the El Mocambo-side and the best of the other tracks.

Could have been a killer single live alb7m, though.

Milk it? They could have done the same after 1971, 1972 and 1973 as well. But it wasn't before 1977 they made a deal with ABKCO, paid up and released a live album, so I guess they were pretty happy with it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-18 18:51 by DandelionPowderman.

The Stones are blessed with Ron Wood. He refreshed their sound considerably, with MT it all got bloated, not Stones-like anymore to the ears of yours truly. Some Girls although no fav of mine compared to lame GHS/IORR is like opening the windows and letting in some clear clean fresh winter air. And thathighly welcomed and desperately needed element of refreshment continues until today. Ron Wood was never a "replacement" for Taylor, he is a completely new figure in the game, at long last he brought the Stones back on the right track.

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Hairball
Based on their quotes about Ronnie, I bet Charlie and Mick were disappointed in the quality and sound during the 75/76 tour compared to previous tours.
Then when it came time to work on Some Girls, it might have been a case of 'too late now, we're kind of stuck with him'.
Wonder if Mick ever thought about sacking him around that time while Keith was in the thick of his personal problems...

I think it's obvious back in the day that Keith would never have allowed Mick to sack Ronnie, but did Mick ever want to sack Ronnie ?? well there is plenty of footage that Mick was getting fed up with Ronnie in 81' 82' as as we all found out a few years later when Mick refused to tour behind Undercover and Dirty Work that Mick wanted to sack the whole band, he's down to saying they couldn't hardly walk across the road let alone tour. Charlie included.

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DandelionPowderman
In your opinion, that is. I have heard very few complaints about the El Mocambo-side and the best of the other tracks.

Could have been a killer single live alb7m, though.

Milk it? They could have done the same after 1971, 1972 and 1973 as well. But it wasn't before 1977 they made a deal with ABKCO, paid up and released a live album, so I guess they were pretty happy with it.

Yes would have been better as a single album, and would have been extra special if it was the El Macombo show alone.
I actually enjoyed the entire album at the time of it's release (I was only 14 and didn't know better), but became less appreciative as the years went on - knowing about all the overdubs seemed to taint it.
Still occasionally listen to all the covers on the El Mocambo side though.

As for milking it, many bands were releasing live albums around that time - off the top of my head Zeppelin, Frampton , Skynyrd, Foghat, etc. - it seemed to be a trend.
Not sure that the Stones really "rushed to make their first double album" as you said as some of those tracks were already two years old.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Actually they wanted to release a live album in '72 already but Decca owned many of the songs so they couldn't do it. Keith stated that due to technical difficulties it wasn't possible to make good live recordings until the time that they did, in '75/'76. Love You Live sold relatively poorly and the critics weren't impressed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-18 20:10 by SomeGuy.

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SomeGuy
Actually they wanted to release a live album in '72 already but Decca owned many of the songs so they couldn't do it. Keith stated that due to technical difficulties it wasn't possible to make good live recordings until the time that they did, in '75/'76. Love You Live sold relatively poorly and the critics weren't impressed.

The same songs were on LYL.

We know now that Keith was wrong. The Brussels Affair proves that.

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Hairball

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DandelionPowderman
In your opinion, that is. I have heard very few complaints about the El Mocambo-side and the best of the other tracks.

Could have been a killer single live alb7m, though.

Milk it? They could have done the same after 1971, 1972 and 1973 as well. But it wasn't before 1977 they made a deal with ABKCO, paid up and released a live album, so I guess they were pretty happy with it.

Yes would have been better as a single album, and would have been extra special if it was the El Macombo show alone.
I actually enjoyed the entire album at the time of it's release (I was only 14 and didn't know better), but became less appreciative as the years went on - knowing about all the overdubs seemed to taint it.
Still occasionally listen to all the covers on the El Mocambo side though.

As for milking it, many bands were releasing live albums around that time - off the top of my head Zeppelin, Frampton , Skynyrd, Foghat, etc. - it seemed to be a trend.
Not sure that the Stones really "rushed to make their first double album" as you said as some of those tracks were already two years old.

But the El Mocambo-side was from 1977, and most of the tracks were from 1976.

14 years old? I guess you grew wise and mature, unlike me

There's many things I used to like when I was young and naive that I cringe at now, as I'm sure is the case with most people.
Wouldn't say it's growing wiser or more mature, but with learned knowledge and in hindsight you tend to see and hear things differently.

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......