Tell Me :
Talk
There was no "new direction" by the time of sessions for LIB. It's just an intuitive development from Beggars Banquet. One that is rendered oddly because it is mostly without Brian Jones contribution or influence. Seemingly Rolling Stones music, but with 20% or so missing. There's a void in the sound and feel.
In to that void came Taylor with his higher playing level, powerful and delicate, European and blue favoured melancholic melodicism. The combination of his contribution to that incomplete band created a new band, sound, identity and music.
Not The Rolling Stones, but The Greatest Rock and Roll Band in the World or something.
Something that was in place mutating in to something else. Like so...
1962: Little Boy Blue and the Blue Boys
1962 - 1969: The Rolling Stones
1969 - 1974: The Greatest Rock and Roll Band in the World
1975 - 20xx: The Lets Just Keep Going Until We Drop Cos We Love The Money Band.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 02:52 by His Majesty.
Ronnie could also be replaced. They almost kicked him out of the band before he cleaned up his act some. I am sure if something happened to him the Stones would continue with another guitarist like they did after Jones and Taylor.
Emotional Rescue has 2 decent songs She's So Cold and Let Me Go and the rest is bloody awful. Somebody on another forum wrote the other day that it had no decent tracks at all. Even the blues track Down In The Hole is uninspired and I usually like their blues tracks as I am also a blues fan.
Time Waits For No One is better than any track on Emotional Rescue and that is just one example.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 03:27 by boogaloojef.
My guess it that Glyn didn't like the drug use. Bill Wyman noted in his book Stone Alone that there was a division between the band members and associates who freely indulged in drugs (Richards, Taylor, Keys, Jimmy Miller, engineer Andy Johns) and those who abstained to varying degrees (Wyman, Watts and Jagger)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 04:00 by boogaloojef.
[www.youtube.com]
Mick Taylor Live At The Arthur's Club
Mick Taylor - guitar, vocals
Snowy White - guitar, vocals
Kuma Harada - bass guitar
John "Rabbit" Bundrick - piano, organ, keyboards
Jeff Allen - drums, percussion
HMS. don't want to argue any points but just for the hell of it,
tune in about 6;35. I mean, I'm not saying it's better or worse than
hundreds of great blues guitarists, but well, I'll argue a little;
The Bluesbreakers with John Mayall, and working with Bob Dylan...
The Stones were lucky to get him.
I'm more with Doxa on all of this.
I'm ALL of those fans cause i was 12 when they broke and stuck with
them for steady decades; and here I still am.
I've seen The Stones twice with Taylor and twice with Ron and always with Bill.
and close up at Fillmore East for Faces; where two Stones music men would emerge, once they kicked that scruffy Rodney to the curb.
I think Keith felt sorta guilty about that until he saw that gold lame suit on Rod; than it was total pirate.
I've the gift, the blessing , of seeing Stu and Nicky bang it out on the same piano at one point, sweating it out for real...two stadiums and 3 arenas;
always reaallll good seats and placement except for '89 in Los Angeles.
I could feel the music from the amps; the bass anyway; at the old MSG.
It totally changed a lot of stuff; more than I know or can really talk about.
It was transcendental and somehow very intimate....
69, which I didn't see, darn it. (my first boot ever; i still have it but will give it away to someone who needs it maybe...(liver than you'll ever be) so really,
THAT was my introduction to Taylor as much as Sticky Fingers, which is so huge. I mean Mick Taylor was the guitarist in The Rolling Stones that made Sticky Fingers. We don't even need eoms or lib in the argument.
We don''t even need ALL of SF. He's Mick Taylor. Not Mick's tailor.
But now that I'm concisely musing; actually my real 'introduction' to
Taylor in The Stones WAS Liver Than You'll Ever Be...let's remember
that that came out Before Ya Ya's or the Gimme Shelter movie that documented
some of that tour. uh.....
i remember listening to sftd over and over; that whole album over and over...
I love ya's ya's now; but when it came out; as excited as i was about it;
i still kept listening to the boot; it's rawness. Taylor is huge.
Always was and always will be. He can play his, or most anybody elses ass off, RIGHT NOW if he wanted to; or could get out of the chair....
ahem...
i want to fight about Bill to but i don't think you had a problem with him; i'll have to read it again...
but just in case....i'm puttin' in a chit.
If it weren't for Derek Trucks
goodness check it out about 22 minutes into this and hold on for a few!)
If it weren't for Trucks, Jeff Beck and maybe Carlos; a couple of guys in country or alt. country; no body in the world could touch these solos...
Very tight and hot little band too; but Taylor just so clearly shoots right up into the sky....
...who has a sparkling personality in The Stones? Keith all those years that
teenage Taylor was brought into the stew while Brian was crashed out but the albums were stunning. I love Buttons but the leap to Bleed is breathtaking.
We recall how sweetheart Keith nearly ate that cameraman's head off;
and i loved him for that too....hard knocks and durty sox indeed...
Taylor is humble and a great gentleman. That thing with Carla would have
been huge without Carla!!
As far as places where we might disagree, that's because I'm right.
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 06:29 by hopkins.
I'd take Dance Pt.1, All About You, or ER (the song) over the dated "70's prog crap" TWFNO any day...
Imho it's the result of Mick listening to the tapes late 71, shaking his head in disbelief and going "this is a lot of sh!t. We're have next to nothing that's as good as SF and I got a US tour booked for Summer. There's a lot of things to be fixed so we're in deep trouble..."
It's Mick who saved EOMS at the very last minute, re-locating operations in L.A. where good sidemen were rife, hiring the best of them and plastering the hole in the songs. They spent six weeks between Feb and March 72 overdubbing and finishing the songs. That says something...
It must have been a nightmare for Mick so it's not surprising he never mentions EOMS as one of his fav albums.
Hahah, yeah... I can imagine Mick going, when making Bonus album to 2010 Deluxe Edition, 'shit... here I am again trying to make something sensible out of this mess'...
- Doxa
Waddy Wachtel would have added exactly what Keith asked from him. Could go any direction. Probably too much of the good within a band like the Stones. Wachtel is a "You pay- I play" guy.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 15:35 by TheflyingDutchman.
Well, yeah, the famous "ancient art of weaving" is basically having two Keiths playing together. No wonder two guitars sounded like being one. Had the other player been radically different, or technically more skilled, it wouldn't have had happened. Or the results being so unique and having that natural 'flow' as it had at best times. But its invention was more like a lucky co-incidence; initially Keith had his doubts about choosing Ronnie, because he thought Ron was too similar guitar player as him (my daring theory is that that was the very reason why Mick voted for Ronnie, just in case...).
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 15:17 by Doxa.
Haha, good to know... Somehow you have had made that kind of impression to me along the years...
- Doxa
Time Waits For No One isn't prog, it is just Latin influenced like the end of Can't You Hear Me Knocking.
Sorry, I am not fan of the Stones disco tracks like Miss You, Emotional Rescue, Hot Stuff, etc. It is actually the disco influenced material that is dated.
I would also take tracks like It's Only Rock 'N' Roll or Star Star for example over anything on Emotional Rescue.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 19:55 by boogaloojef.
Probably for Charlie those songs and riffs weren't that special that he saw any big musical step taking place. To really having 'added' something novel and different, offering new horizons, etc. To remember from where he comes from, and having witnessed Mick and Keith mastering the art of song-writing, I wouldn't be surprised that those didn't make much impact on him. Besides, he didn't even play on that only 'Ronnie' tune that has a kind of classical status in Stones canon ("It's Only Rock'n'Roll"). He almost skipped/missed the album in which Ronnie contributed writer-wise most (DIRTY WORK). So probably he just don't remember Ronnie having contributed in that department as well...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 18:36 by Doxa.
You have a unique copy, seemingly
And I suggest you check Ronnie's writing credits with The Stones.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 20:03 by DandelionPowderman.
Thanks for the nuance, Dandy. That is of course true. He did contribute with that. I was more referring to his playing style though. Which was more supportive than innovative.
Ok, maybe I didn't quite remember the numbers correctly and I know that some later Exile reissues didn't have the writing credits to Taylor anymore, but both my lp and the '94 cd remaster do. Also Taylor claims to have written songs on IORR as well. Whatever the contributions of Taylor to writing were or weren't, fact is anyway that Wood is by no means a songwriter to the Stones, except on the so much loved Dirty Work, the highlight of songwriting skills indeed.
I checked my collection for Ronnie Wood credits:
A Bigger Bang: zero songs
Bridges to Babylon: zero songs
Voodoo Lounge: zero songs
Steel Wheels: zero songs
Dirty Work: 4 co-writing credits
Undercover: 1 co-writing credit
Tattoo You: 2 co-writing credits
Emotional Rescue: 1 co-writing credit
Some Girls: zero songs
Black And Blue: zero songs, 1 'inspiration' credit
It's Only Rock 'n' Roll: 1 'inspiration' credit
Net result is: 0.27 songs per album (counting the 'inspiration' credits), even slightly less than I had guessed. So, I tend to agree with Charlie here
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: June 16, 2019 02:12
Quote
HMS
BB, imo does not represent the "new band". They still sounded like guys from England. The "new direction" that started with LIB and was brought to perfection with Sticky Fingers was mainly to pick up elements of american rockbands that were successful by the end of the 60s. On Sticky Fingers (and all albums that were to come) they no longer sounded like guys from England. They sounded more "international" or - and that imo was their intention - "american". All that musical change and going in a new direction had nothing to do with the influence of a new lead guitarist, be it Taylor or some other guy. It was a natural development as well as a commercial dicision. Taylor did not change the band all over it already had changed. He added what the Stones allowed him to add. I am not getting tired of saying that his influence on the band was only marginal. He was their guitarist, no more no less. It could have been Wayne Perkins as well, the difference would not have been significant. They expanded their musical horizon focusing on the north american type of rock-music in order to keep up with the american bands.
They could no longer rest on the laurels of being a most important part of the "british invasion", these days were gone. The change had to be made in order to stay successful in america (and worldwide because american rock music had become the role model)
There was no "new direction" by the time of sessions for LIB. It's just an intuitive development from Beggars Banquet. One that is rendered oddly because it is mostly without Brian Jones contribution or influence. Seemingly Rolling Stones music, but with 20% or so missing. There's a void in the sound and feel.
In to that void came Taylor with his higher playing level, powerful and delicate, European and blue favoured melancholic melodicism. The combination of his contribution to that incomplete band created a new band, sound, identity and music.
Not The Rolling Stones, but The Greatest Rock and Roll Band in the World or something.
Something that was in place mutating in to something else. Like so...
1962: Little Boy Blue and the Blue Boys
1962 - 1969: The Rolling Stones
1969 - 1974: The Greatest Rock and Roll Band in the World
1975 - 20xx: The Lets Just Keep Going Until We Drop Cos We Love The Money Band.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 02:52 by His Majesty.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
TornAndFried
()
Date: June 16, 2019 02:44
Quote
TornAndFriedQuote
HMS
...and I´d like to add that Taylor was the part of the Stones that could be replaced most easily, because he never was an integral part. Any skillful guitarist could have replaced Taylor.
Ronnie Wood is an integral part because of his unique interaction with Keith, Ronnie and Keith are two of a kind, they are weaving - creating a unique sound. Ronnie is irreplaceable for the Stones-sound. Wonderful solos are not quintessential for the Stones-sound, never were. So Taylor always was some kind of foreign body. Ronnie Wood is much more important for the Stones than Taylor ever was.
I felt Mick Taylor was in a technical sense "too good" of a musician for the Stones. I think he needed more freedom to be able explore his superior abilities but could not do so within the constraints of most of the songs he was playing on. He could have had a side project to play jazz-fusion or heavy blues but I think he lacked the vision, confidence and communication skills necessary to become an effective leader. His drug use didn't help either. After reading Glyn John's comments about how Taylor's personality changed and he became very egotistical after becoming famous I'm convinced he developed some kind of personality disorder from the combined effects of heavy drug use and poor lifestyle habits. In the end I feel he probably wasn't well-suited for stardom, the same thing Keith famously once said about Kurt Cobain. Having said that his tenure with the Stones was, by far, my favorite period and I loved what he added to their sound. Ronnie is a better fit for the later years, style and personality-wise, but his musical skills are inconsistent often bordering on sloppy and occasionally even mediocre.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 07:11 by TornAndFried.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
boogaloojef
()
Date: June 16, 2019 03:11
Quote
TornAndFriedQuote
TornAndFriedQuote
HMS
...and I´d like to add that Taylor was the part of the Stones that could be replaced most easily, because he never was an integral part. Any skillful guitarist could have replaced Taylor.
Ronnie Wood is an integral part because of his unique interaction with Keith, Ronnie and Keith are two of a kind, they are weaving - creating a unique sound. Ronnie is irreplaceable for the Stones-sound. Wonderful solos are not quintessential for the Stones-sound, never were. So Taylor always was some kind of foreign body. Ronnie Wood is much more important for the Stones than Taylor ever was.
Mick Taylor was in a way, too good of a musician for the Stones. I think he needed more freedom to explore his superior technical abilities but could not do so with the constraints of most of the songs he was playing on. He should have started a side project to play jazz-fusion or heavy blues but I think he lacked the confidence and communication skills to become an effective leader. The drugs didn't help either. After reading Glyn John's comments about how Taylor's personality changed and he became very egotistical after he became famous I'm convinced he developed some kind of personality disorder from the combined effects of heavy drug use and poor lifestyle habits. In the end I feel he probably wasn't well suited for fame, the same thing Keith once said about Kurt Cobain.
It is interesting that Glyn's brother Andy didn't complain about Mick Taylor and he worked with him as well. It makes you wonder if Glyn exaggerated this to sell more copies of his book.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 03:14 by boogaloojef.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
boogaloojef
()
Date: June 16, 2019 03:17
Quote
HMS
...and I´d like to add that Taylor was the part of the Stones that could be replaced most easily, because he never was an integral part. Any skillful guitarist could have replaced Taylor.
Ronnie Wood is an integral part because of his unique interaction with Keith, Ronnie and Keith are two of a kind, they are weaving - creating a unique sound. Ronnie is irreplaceable for the Stones-sound. Wonderful solos are not quintessential for the Stones-sound, never were. So Taylor always was some kind of foreign body.
Ronnie Wood is much more important for the Stones than Taylor ever was.
Ronnie could also be replaced. They almost kicked him out of the band before he cleaned up his act some. I am sure if something happened to him the Stones would continue with another guitarist like they did after Jones and Taylor.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: June 16, 2019 03:18
Ronnie could also be replaced.
with who ???? ….. Ted Nugent....????????? ….. Who ?????
ROCKMAN
with who ???? ….. Ted Nugent....????????? ….. Who ?????
ROCKMAN
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: June 16, 2019 03:23
Nearly everyone becomes egotistical after they became famous.
I think not. Just a clash of people, like Glyn and Brian. He said this stuff long before his book.
Quote
boogaloojef
It is interesting that Glyn's brother Andy didn't complain about Mick Taylor and he worked with him as well. It makes you wonder if Glyn exaggerated this to sell more copies of his book.
I think not. Just a clash of people, like Glyn and Brian. He said this stuff long before his book.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
boogaloojef
()
Date: June 16, 2019 03:24
Quote
HMS
If DW isn´t a Stones-album because Charlie does not play on some tracks, then a couple of other albums aren´t Stones-albums too, because Bill does not play bass on a lot of tracks...
I never cared in detail on which DW-tracks charlie is on drums and on which who-knows-who. I think most people don´t even know about that. And it seems nobody can really tell on which tracks he´s actually not playing...
...ER has only one weak song, the horrible Indian Girl, all of the other material is very good, imo. I like ER even better than SG. And yes, ER is much fresher than GHS/IORR.
...i wonder why a guitar-wizard like Taylor who "saved the Stones and lifted them to incredible hights never reached before or after", never had a huge career of his own. You might say he can´t sing that´s the problem... but Eric Clapton can´t sing... Jimi Hendrix could not sing... so what´s the problem with MT... I think it is his haughtiness and inability to get along with other musicians... probably... Strangly enough music-fans all over the world praise him for once being a member of the Stones, but no-one cares about what he´s been doing after his departure. One of music history´s most mysterious enigmas that this guy never had a career and is completely forgotten today. His membership with the Stones is overestimated anyway in my opinion. In the studio he was rarely given a chance to really shine and live he was a kind of "isolated" player, no team-player, always trying to noodle away. He often had to be stopped by Mick or Keith, it seems he had no group-feeling, always just thinking of his solo, not caring for the rest of the band. One can hear that pretty good on Brussel´73 - there is the band and there is MT, never a unit, always two seperate parts. With Ronnie it is totally different and - imo - it´s better that way.
Emotional Rescue has 2 decent songs She's So Cold and Let Me Go and the rest is bloody awful. Somebody on another forum wrote the other day that it had no decent tracks at all. Even the blues track Down In The Hole is uninspired and I usually like their blues tracks as I am also a blues fan.
Time Waits For No One is better than any track on Emotional Rescue and that is just one example.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 03:27 by boogaloojef.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
boogaloojef
()
Date: June 16, 2019 03:33
Quote
His Majesty
Nearly everyone becomes egotistical after they became famous.Quote
boogaloojef
It is interesting that Glyn's brother Andy didn't complain about Mick Taylor and he worked with him as well. It makes you wonder if Glyn exaggerated this to sell more copies of his book.
I think not. Just a clash of people, like Glyn and Brian. He said this stuff long before his book.
My guess it that Glyn didn't like the drug use. Bill Wyman noted in his book Stone Alone that there was a division between the band members and associates who freely indulged in drugs (Richards, Taylor, Keys, Jimmy Miller, engineer Andy Johns) and those who abstained to varying degrees (Wyman, Watts and Jagger)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 04:00 by boogaloojef.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
hopkins
()
Date: June 16, 2019 05:53
Quote
HMS
If DW isn´t a Stones-album because Charlie does not play on some tracks, then a couple of other albums aren´t Stones-albums too, because Bill does not play bass on a lot of tracks...
I never cared in detail on which DW-tracks charlie is on drums and on which who-knows-who. I think most people don´t even know about that. And it seems nobody can really tell on which tracks he´s actually not playing...
...ER has only one weak song, the horrible Indian Girl, all of the other material is very good, imo. I like ER even better than SG. And yes, ER is much fresher than GHS/IORR.
...i wonder why a guitar-wizard like Taylor who "saved the Stones and lifted them to incredible hights never reached before or after", never had a huge career of his own. You might say he can´t sing that´s the problem... but Eric Clapton can´t sing... Jimi Hendrix could not sing... so what´s the problem with MT... I think it is his haughtiness and inability to get along with other musicians... probably... Strangly enough music-fans all over the world praise him for once being a member of the Stones, but no-one cares about what he´s been doing after his departure. One of music history´s most mysterious enigmas that this guy never had a career and is completely forgotten today. His membership with the Stones is overestimated anyway in my opinion. In the studio he was rarely given a chance to really shine and live he was a kind of "isolated" player, no team-player, always trying to noodle away. He often had to be stopped by Mick or Keith, it seems he had no group-feeling, always just thinking of his solo, not caring for the rest of the band. One can hear that pretty good on Brussel´73 - there is the band and there is MT, never a unit, always two seperate parts. With Ronnie it is totally different and - imo - it´s better that way.
[www.youtube.com]
Mick Taylor Live At The Arthur's Club
Mick Taylor - guitar, vocals
Snowy White - guitar, vocals
Kuma Harada - bass guitar
John "Rabbit" Bundrick - piano, organ, keyboards
Jeff Allen - drums, percussion
HMS. don't want to argue any points but just for the hell of it,
tune in about 6;35. I mean, I'm not saying it's better or worse than
hundreds of great blues guitarists, but well, I'll argue a little;
The Bluesbreakers with John Mayall, and working with Bob Dylan...
The Stones were lucky to get him.
I'm more with Doxa on all of this.
I'm ALL of those fans cause i was 12 when they broke and stuck with
them for steady decades; and here I still am.
I've seen The Stones twice with Taylor and twice with Ron and always with Bill.
and close up at Fillmore East for Faces; where two Stones music men would emerge, once they kicked that scruffy Rodney to the curb.
I think Keith felt sorta guilty about that until he saw that gold lame suit on Rod; than it was total pirate.
I've the gift, the blessing , of seeing Stu and Nicky bang it out on the same piano at one point, sweating it out for real...two stadiums and 3 arenas;
always reaallll good seats and placement except for '89 in Los Angeles.
I could feel the music from the amps; the bass anyway; at the old MSG.
It totally changed a lot of stuff; more than I know or can really talk about.
It was transcendental and somehow very intimate....
69, which I didn't see, darn it. (my first boot ever; i still have it but will give it away to someone who needs it maybe...(liver than you'll ever be) so really,
THAT was my introduction to Taylor as much as Sticky Fingers, which is so huge. I mean Mick Taylor was the guitarist in The Rolling Stones that made Sticky Fingers. We don't even need eoms or lib in the argument.
We don''t even need ALL of SF. He's Mick Taylor. Not Mick's tailor.
But now that I'm concisely musing; actually my real 'introduction' to
Taylor in The Stones WAS Liver Than You'll Ever Be...let's remember
that that came out Before Ya Ya's or the Gimme Shelter movie that documented
some of that tour. uh.....
i remember listening to sftd over and over; that whole album over and over...
I love ya's ya's now; but when it came out; as excited as i was about it;
i still kept listening to the boot; it's rawness. Taylor is huge.
Always was and always will be. He can play his, or most anybody elses ass off, RIGHT NOW if he wanted to; or could get out of the chair....
ahem...
i want to fight about Bill to but i don't think you had a problem with him; i'll have to read it again...
but just in case....i'm puttin' in a chit.
If it weren't for Derek Trucks
goodness check it out about 22 minutes into this and hold on for a few!)
If it weren't for Trucks, Jeff Beck and maybe Carlos; a couple of guys in country or alt. country; no body in the world could touch these solos...
Very tight and hot little band too; but Taylor just so clearly shoots right up into the sky....
...who has a sparkling personality in The Stones? Keith all those years that
teenage Taylor was brought into the stew while Brian was crashed out but the albums were stunning. I love Buttons but the leap to Bleed is breathtaking.
We recall how sweetheart Keith nearly ate that cameraman's head off;
and i loved him for that too....hard knocks and durty sox indeed...
Taylor is humble and a great gentleman. That thing with Carla would have
been huge without Carla!!
As far as places where we might disagree, that's because I'm right.
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 06:29 by hopkins.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: June 16, 2019 11:48
Quote
boogaloojef
Time Waits For No One is better than any track on Emotional Rescue and that is just one example.
I'd take Dance Pt.1, All About You, or ER (the song) over the dated "70's prog crap" TWFNO any day...
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: June 16, 2019 12:10
From Glyn Johns' book :
"Though I had been producing with some degree of success for some time, Mick and Keith only ever saw me as an engineer. Their process seemed to be getting slower and slower. The flush of Mick Taylor joining the band had subsided somewhat. Substance abuse had changed him almost beyond recognition from the quiet fresh-faced genius I met when he joined the band.
In fact, the last time I had worked for the Stones was in 1972, recording and mixing some of Exile on Main St. My brother Andy did most of the album at Keith’s house in the South of France, where, sadly, he fell under the spell of Keith and heroin. Things had not gone particularly well as a result of a massive amount of drug taking by everyone except Mick, Charlie, and Bill. So Mick invited me down to visit, and not long after, he asked if I would go in with him on his own to help him finish a couple of vocals and do some mixing. My one condition was that it would only be him and me, with no interference from any other member of the band, after what I had witnessed in France.
We started back in London at Basing Street Studios and were getting on really well, slipping straight back right where we left off. Until, on the second day, the control room door opened and much to my surprise in walked Mick Taylor. We had been working on a mix for about half an hour and had discovered that Mick Taylor had overdubbed himself on drums and bass and was singing background parts, all of which I had decided not to use, as The Rolling Stones already had the best rhythm section that I knew of and I would not insult them by using what he had played as a substitute in the mix. As for the singing, I felt it would be best if he stuck to playing the guitar.
On realizing that I was only using his guitar part, Mr. Taylor became quite upset and demanded to know where his bass, drums, and singing were. I politely explained that they would be remaining on the multitrack tape and that I would not be using them in the mix, as I felt they added nothing of value to the track. This was a changed man. He had become an insufferable egomaniac. I reminded Mick Jagger of our agreement, and he asked Mick Taylor to leave, agreeing with me that having him there was not going to work.
That was the last time I saw him, until I did a live album with Bob Dylan ten years later, in 1984. He was in the band and had straightened himself out and reverted back to being the quiet, unassuming guy I had once known".
This episode would confirm my humble theory about MT's departure from the band.
He probably thought :
- he was too big and talented for them
- by 74 the Stones were toast. Creatively they were dry and Keef had a bleak future (or no future at all...) ahead of him.
- therefore it was time to move to another musical vehicule, more suited to Taylor's (rather large) ego.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 12:37 by dcba.
"Though I had been producing with some degree of success for some time, Mick and Keith only ever saw me as an engineer. Their process seemed to be getting slower and slower. The flush of Mick Taylor joining the band had subsided somewhat. Substance abuse had changed him almost beyond recognition from the quiet fresh-faced genius I met when he joined the band.
In fact, the last time I had worked for the Stones was in 1972, recording and mixing some of Exile on Main St. My brother Andy did most of the album at Keith’s house in the South of France, where, sadly, he fell under the spell of Keith and heroin. Things had not gone particularly well as a result of a massive amount of drug taking by everyone except Mick, Charlie, and Bill. So Mick invited me down to visit, and not long after, he asked if I would go in with him on his own to help him finish a couple of vocals and do some mixing. My one condition was that it would only be him and me, with no interference from any other member of the band, after what I had witnessed in France.
We started back in London at Basing Street Studios and were getting on really well, slipping straight back right where we left off. Until, on the second day, the control room door opened and much to my surprise in walked Mick Taylor. We had been working on a mix for about half an hour and had discovered that Mick Taylor had overdubbed himself on drums and bass and was singing background parts, all of which I had decided not to use, as The Rolling Stones already had the best rhythm section that I knew of and I would not insult them by using what he had played as a substitute in the mix. As for the singing, I felt it would be best if he stuck to playing the guitar.
On realizing that I was only using his guitar part, Mr. Taylor became quite upset and demanded to know where his bass, drums, and singing were. I politely explained that they would be remaining on the multitrack tape and that I would not be using them in the mix, as I felt they added nothing of value to the track. This was a changed man. He had become an insufferable egomaniac. I reminded Mick Jagger of our agreement, and he asked Mick Taylor to leave, agreeing with me that having him there was not going to work.
That was the last time I saw him, until I did a live album with Bob Dylan ten years later, in 1984. He was in the band and had straightened himself out and reverted back to being the quiet, unassuming guy I had once known".
This episode would confirm my humble theory about MT's departure from the band.
He probably thought :
- he was too big and talented for them
- by 74 the Stones were toast. Creatively they were dry and Keef had a bleak future (or no future at all...) ahead of him.
- therefore it was time to move to another musical vehicule, more suited to Taylor's (rather large) ego.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 12:37 by dcba.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: June 16, 2019 14:17
Well, if that Glyn's story holds water (and why not), it not only says that he was egomaniac, but simply out of his mind... Nellcote drug supply left its mark on him... Reading all these stories, it is truely one of the miracles that EXILE turned out to be such a masterpiece (although I have the feel that the artistic success of EXILE gave them, especially to Keith, a wrong signal that they could produce masterpieces in whatever conditions. I think EXILE is an exception to rule in many ways, once in a lifetime miracle, and repeating it is impossible). However, Taylor would still remain more over two years in the band, so probably such an incident wasn't any regularity, but a sort of Monty Pythonian occurance. And G. Johns wasn't around to wittness GOATS HEAD SOUP and IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL recordings.
That said, I mostly agree with your "humble theory", dcba. There is a point that Taylor left to 'save his life', or due to dispute over some credits, but I lean on thinking that most of it has to do with artistic reasons. The scope of Stones music wasn't enough for him any longer. He had different musical ambitions to realize his potentiality; the progressive type of rock music, and fusion, was on the air, and the future of the Stones was more than uncertain. Not to mention the condition of a certain key player, but GOATS HEAD SOUP and especially IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL were strong indications that the Stones started to be yesterday's papers.
I think the difficultness to understand Taylor's doings and set of mind derives from the long historical perspective, which takes the Stones and their status and musical legacy as a sort of given and unchangable. But he was a very young guy when he joined the band, and he also musically was going different places during his time in the band, keep on evolving (like the band he was in and the whole musical scene at the time). The pure electric blues guitarist from John Mayall's band was a different player than the one who left the Stones. Within the course, Taylor just probably came to a conclusion that the template of the Stones, which started to repeat itself, just wasn't enough for him (the claims of him sounding 'bored', and thereby 'over-playing' in his last tour with Stones, seems to support that point, although I don't quite buy them).
Additionally, I guess most of the people in the music business like money and fame, but I have always had the picture that Taylor was much more a pure, serious musician than a pop star. But he didn't have that kind of stoic attitude, and limited musical ambition, as Charlie or Bill had. The nomadic life style with drugs might not have helped much either. I think one reason why Taylor is quite many times seen as an 'odd man out' is that we Stones fans adore the world of rock stardom, our heroes are the world's biggest rock stars, and the very definition of it. Taylor just doesn't fit there naturally. Brian had his difficulties to cope with it, but a person like Ron Wood is like born to be one. A rock star. Probably even more than Keith Richards himself. In the long run I think Ronnie - with his small musical ambition and a humble fanboy mentality - was a perfect choice for the job. Like Charlie has said, he "didn't add anything", and that was his forte in the long run - emphazising the elements the band already possessed. For the first time in their career the important "third man" was a pure team player, not a kind of internal counter force to create tension (even though my personal opinion is that the best things the band ever achieved do derive from the times they had such a tension within a band). The result was more relaxed, funnier version of the band. I think one cannot over-emphasize the significance for the band lasting so long to have a person like him.
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 14:48 by Doxa.
That said, I mostly agree with your "humble theory", dcba. There is a point that Taylor left to 'save his life', or due to dispute over some credits, but I lean on thinking that most of it has to do with artistic reasons. The scope of Stones music wasn't enough for him any longer. He had different musical ambitions to realize his potentiality; the progressive type of rock music, and fusion, was on the air, and the future of the Stones was more than uncertain. Not to mention the condition of a certain key player, but GOATS HEAD SOUP and especially IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL were strong indications that the Stones started to be yesterday's papers.
I think the difficultness to understand Taylor's doings and set of mind derives from the long historical perspective, which takes the Stones and their status and musical legacy as a sort of given and unchangable. But he was a very young guy when he joined the band, and he also musically was going different places during his time in the band, keep on evolving (like the band he was in and the whole musical scene at the time). The pure electric blues guitarist from John Mayall's band was a different player than the one who left the Stones. Within the course, Taylor just probably came to a conclusion that the template of the Stones, which started to repeat itself, just wasn't enough for him (the claims of him sounding 'bored', and thereby 'over-playing' in his last tour with Stones, seems to support that point, although I don't quite buy them).
Additionally, I guess most of the people in the music business like money and fame, but I have always had the picture that Taylor was much more a pure, serious musician than a pop star. But he didn't have that kind of stoic attitude, and limited musical ambition, as Charlie or Bill had. The nomadic life style with drugs might not have helped much either. I think one reason why Taylor is quite many times seen as an 'odd man out' is that we Stones fans adore the world of rock stardom, our heroes are the world's biggest rock stars, and the very definition of it. Taylor just doesn't fit there naturally. Brian had his difficulties to cope with it, but a person like Ron Wood is like born to be one. A rock star. Probably even more than Keith Richards himself. In the long run I think Ronnie - with his small musical ambition and a humble fanboy mentality - was a perfect choice for the job. Like Charlie has said, he "didn't add anything", and that was his forte in the long run - emphazising the elements the band already possessed. For the first time in their career the important "third man" was a pure team player, not a kind of internal counter force to create tension (even though my personal opinion is that the best things the band ever achieved do derive from the times they had such a tension within a band). The result was more relaxed, funnier version of the band. I think one cannot over-emphasize the significance for the band lasting so long to have a person like him.
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 14:48 by Doxa.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: June 16, 2019 14:46
Quote
Doxa
it is truly one of the miracles that EXILE turned out to be such a masterpiece
- Doxa
Imho it's the result of Mick listening to the tapes late 71, shaking his head in disbelief and going "this is a lot of sh!t. We're have next to nothing that's as good as SF and I got a US tour booked for Summer. There's a lot of things to be fixed so we're in deep trouble..."
It's Mick who saved EOMS at the very last minute, re-locating operations in L.A. where good sidemen were rife, hiring the best of them and plastering the hole in the songs. They spent six weeks between Feb and March 72 overdubbing and finishing the songs. That says something...
It must have been a nightmare for Mick so it's not surprising he never mentions EOMS as one of his fav albums.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Stoneage
()
Date: June 16, 2019 14:49
Yep, that's the thing with Wood. He didn't add anything but on the other hand he didn't take away anything either. Like Darryl for instance.
Sometimes I wonder what a guitarist like Waddy Wachtel would have added to the Stones. At least he would have added something. Not just played along.
Sometimes I wonder what a guitarist like Waddy Wachtel would have added to the Stones. At least he would have added something. Not just played along.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: June 16, 2019 14:58
Quote
dcbaQuote
Doxa
it is truly one of the miracles that EXILE turned out to be such a masterpiece
- Doxa
Imho it's the result of Mick listening to the tapes late 71, shaking his head in disbelief and going "this is a lot of sh!t. We're have next to nothing that's as good as SF and I got a US tour booked for Summer. There's a lot of things to be fixed so we're in deep trouble..."
It's Mick who saved EOMS at the very last minute, re-locating operations in L.A. where good sidemen were rife, hiring the best of them and plastering the hole in the songs. They spent six weeks between Feb and March 72 overdubbing and finishing the songs. That says something...
It must have been a nightmare for Mick so it's not surprising he never mentions EOMS as one of his fav albums.
Hahah, yeah... I can imagine Mick going, when making Bonus album to 2010 Deluxe Edition, 'shit... here I am again trying to make something sensible out of this mess'...
- Doxa
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: June 16, 2019 15:09
Quote
Stoneage
Yep, that's the thing with Wood. He didn't add anything but on the other hand he didn't take away anything either. Like Darryl for instance.
Sometimes I wonder what a guitarist like Waddy Wachtel would have added to the Stones. At least he would have added something. Not just played along.
Waddy Wachtel would have added exactly what Keith asked from him. Could go any direction. Probably too much of the good within a band like the Stones. Wachtel is a "You pay- I play" guy.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 15:35 by TheflyingDutchman.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: June 16, 2019 15:12
Quote
Stoneage
Yep, that's the thing with Wood. He didn't add anything but on the other hand he didn't take away anything either. Like Darryl for instance.
Sometimes I wonder what a guitarist like Waddy Wachtel would have added to the Stones. At least he would have added something. Not just played along.
Well, yeah, the famous "ancient art of weaving" is basically having two Keiths playing together. No wonder two guitars sounded like being one. Had the other player been radically different, or technically more skilled, it wouldn't have had happened. Or the results being so unique and having that natural 'flow' as it had at best times. But its invention was more like a lucky co-incidence; initially Keith had his doubts about choosing Ronnie, because he thought Ron was too similar guitar player as him (my daring theory is that that was the very reason why Mick voted for Ronnie, just in case...).
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 15:17 by Doxa.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: June 16, 2019 15:33
Quote
His MajestyQuote
Doxa
I know a lot of people for whom, like for our His Majesty, the Jones era Stones is the only one that really matters.
I do not think that. Of course the other related music matters, much of it amazing... but, there is only really one 'era' of The Rolling Stones.
Haha, good to know... Somehow you have had made that kind of impression to me along the years...
- Doxa
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: June 16, 2019 17:28
Anyway, this is all hot air or 1,s and 0,s with little bearing on anything.
Taylor played his guitar and left his mark on music history.
Taylor played his guitar and left his mark on music history.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: June 16, 2019 17:47
Seemingly, Charlie forgot that Ronnie is a songwriter, and that he brought songs to the band from the get-go. Songs they recorded and released
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
boogaloojef
()
Date: June 16, 2019 18:08
Quote
dcbaQuote
boogaloojef
Time Waits For No One is better than any track on Emotional Rescue and that is just one example.
I'd take Dance Pt.1, All About You, or ER (the song) over the dated "70's prog crap" TWFNO any day...
Time Waits For No One isn't prog, it is just Latin influenced like the end of Can't You Hear Me Knocking.
Sorry, I am not fan of the Stones disco tracks like Miss You, Emotional Rescue, Hot Stuff, etc. It is actually the disco influenced material that is dated.
I would also take tracks like It's Only Rock 'N' Roll or Star Star for example over anything on Emotional Rescue.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 19:55 by boogaloojef.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
SomeGuy
()
Date: June 16, 2019 18:29
Ronnie a song writer? Mick Taylor co-wrote more on one album (3 songs on Exile according to my copy) than Ronnie did, 0.3 songs per album is not a lot and that was decades ago.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: June 16, 2019 18:29
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Seemingly, Charlie forgot that Ronnie is a songwriter, and that he brought songs to the band from the get-go. Songs they recorded and released
Probably for Charlie those songs and riffs weren't that special that he saw any big musical step taking place. To really having 'added' something novel and different, offering new horizons, etc. To remember from where he comes from, and having witnessed Mick and Keith mastering the art of song-writing, I wouldn't be surprised that those didn't make much impact on him. Besides, he didn't even play on that only 'Ronnie' tune that has a kind of classical status in Stones canon ("It's Only Rock'n'Roll"). He almost skipped/missed the album in which Ronnie contributed writer-wise most (DIRTY WORK). So probably he just don't remember Ronnie having contributed in that department as well...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 18:36 by Doxa.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: June 16, 2019 18:46
June 16, 2019 17:28
Anyway, this is all hot air or 1,s and 0,s with little bearing on anything.
Taylor played his guitar and left his mark on music history.
Yes that's the difference between the taylor era and wood era. Fans and Peers always mention Taylor's guitar on social media threads on those songs he helped make famous. I would say the Jones era had the same impact on looking back on how Brian added his many instruments to those songs.
The only post taylor album I can play through without skipping tracks is UC - and the some girls bonus tracks.
Anyway, this is all hot air or 1,s and 0,s with little bearing on anything.
Taylor played his guitar and left his mark on music history.
Yes that's the difference between the taylor era and wood era. Fans and Peers always mention Taylor's guitar on social media threads on those songs he helped make famous. I would say the Jones era had the same impact on looking back on how Brian added his many instruments to those songs.
The only post taylor album I can play through without skipping tracks is UC - and the some girls bonus tracks.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
SomeGuy
()
Date: June 16, 2019 19:12
I have this strange idea that, had they retained a decent guitarist, perhaps the Stones wouldn't have been overshadowed by Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith and Guns 'n' Roses so much.
I think that there's only one album that lives up to the music pre '75: Tattoo You (not surprisingly as some of the tracks date even from '73 and Mick T. is on one of them).
Having said that, I still rate most albums with Wood on them, at least a 7, maybe 8, out of 10, except Black And Blue and Bridges To Babylon (the latter is in my opinion the absolute nadir of theirs).
I think that there's only one album that lives up to the music pre '75: Tattoo You (not surprisingly as some of the tracks date even from '73 and Mick T. is on one of them).
Having said that, I still rate most albums with Wood on them, at least a 7, maybe 8, out of 10, except Black And Blue and Bridges To Babylon (the latter is in my opinion the absolute nadir of theirs).
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
TravelinMan
()
Date: June 16, 2019 19:48
HMS, Jagger, Richards, and Watts are irreplaceable. Anybody else is, although it isn’t the same without Bill.
Listening to the ‘75 live stuff, a tour which the Stones mimicked their 1973 tour approach, it’s clear that the band HAD to change because Wood could not fill Taylor’s shoes. I’m not going to bash Wood’s personality and his off stage antics, I’m just looking at the music. He did an okay job, but it is clear as day he was out of his element.
Also, to say that they returned to their original concept is a joke when you consider the reggae, disco, and punk influence during the Wood era.
Listening to the ‘75 live stuff, a tour which the Stones mimicked their 1973 tour approach, it’s clear that the band HAD to change because Wood could not fill Taylor’s shoes. I’m not going to bash Wood’s personality and his off stage antics, I’m just looking at the music. He did an okay job, but it is clear as day he was out of his element.
Also, to say that they returned to their original concept is a joke when you consider the reggae, disco, and punk influence during the Wood era.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: June 16, 2019 20:01
Quote
SomeGuy
Ronnie a song writer? Mick Taylor co-wrote more on one album (3 songs on Exile according to my copy) than Ronnie did, 0.3 songs per album is not a lot and that was decades ago.
You have a unique copy, seemingly
And I suggest you check Ronnie's writing credits with The Stones.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-06-16 20:03 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Stoneage
()
Date: June 16, 2019 20:11
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Seemingly, Charlie forgot that Ronnie is a songwriter, and that he brought songs to the band from the get-go. Songs they recorded and released
Thanks for the nuance, Dandy. That is of course true. He did contribute with that. I was more referring to his playing style though. Which was more supportive than innovative.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
SomeGuy
()
Date: June 16, 2019 20:39
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
SomeGuy
Ronnie a song writer? Mick Taylor co-wrote more on one album (3 songs on Exile according to my copy) than Ronnie did, 0.3 songs per album is not a lot and that was decades ago.
You have a unique copy, seemingly
And I suggest you check Ronnie's writing credits with The Stones.
Ok, maybe I didn't quite remember the numbers correctly and I know that some later Exile reissues didn't have the writing credits to Taylor anymore, but both my lp and the '94 cd remaster do. Also Taylor claims to have written songs on IORR as well. Whatever the contributions of Taylor to writing were or weren't, fact is anyway that Wood is by no means a songwriter to the Stones, except on the so much loved Dirty Work, the highlight of songwriting skills indeed.
I checked my collection for Ronnie Wood credits:
A Bigger Bang: zero songs
Bridges to Babylon: zero songs
Voodoo Lounge: zero songs
Steel Wheels: zero songs
Dirty Work: 4 co-writing credits
Undercover: 1 co-writing credit
Tattoo You: 2 co-writing credits
Emotional Rescue: 1 co-writing credit
Some Girls: zero songs
Black And Blue: zero songs, 1 'inspiration' credit
It's Only Rock 'n' Roll: 1 'inspiration' credit
Net result is: 0.27 songs per album (counting the 'inspiration' credits), even slightly less than I had guessed. So, I tend to agree with Charlie here
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
SomeGuy
()
Date: June 16, 2019 20:48
One could of course argue that neither BAB or IORR should have been included in the calculation though, as Wood wasn't in the band at the time.
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