You have regarded me as a very guarded person?

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DandelionPowderman
<Look at Led Zeppelin, a band who similarly used old blues songs and themes and yet occasionally shared out the 'stolen' songwriting credits.>

Like Nanker-Phelge?

Just like "Little By Little" is "Shame Shame Shame"....

As always, there are contradictions in relation to Brian...

Just about every stone has said at some point that Brian didn't write any songs, that Brian wrote some songs, that Brian wrote bits and pieces, that he didn't write any etc etc. Jack Nitszche commented that he heard some of Brian's songs, but said they were not suitable for the stones.

Anyone can write songs. They may or may not be good, that's a subjective thing anyway, but it's much a do about nothing to string some words together and put a melody to them and vice versa.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-09 13:52 by His Majesty.

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Silver Dagger
Anyone else think that Mick and Keith should have afforded Brian a songwriting credit for tunes where his imaginative musical colouring enhanced and even improved their original ideas? I certainly do.

Songs like Ruby Tuesday, Under My Thumb and Out Of Time gained an extra sheen and more lustre thanks to his input. I guess the difference is that his contribution was made in the studio and not in the classic 'across the kitchen table' situation where dual songwriters usually co-pen their material.

I wonder if the times that Ronnie has been given a songwriting credit emanate from inspiring the germ of a song idea at the very beginning of the songwriting process or from adding an idea in the studio. If it's the latter then I feel sorry that Brian too wasn't afforded that opportunity and missed the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the Stones' songwriting team.

Squabbling over songwriting rights and jealousy of band members that don't get that money has seen the demise of many a band. Unfortunately I believe this was oneof the major factors that led to Brian's dissatisfaction with the Stones. Had he pushed himself a bit more and come up with the goods it might have been so different.

Nice article, Silver Dagger, appreciate your taking time to post it.

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Mathijs

And I can see Brian trying to offer some 12 bar blues to Jagger and Richards, only to get snubbed 'we're now working on this riff and melody line we call 'Satisfaction'. It's the George Harrison syndrome.

Mathijs

And thank you Brian for the Last Time riff, this is Nowhere to run, Keiths version.

When I first read the Thank You For Being There lyrics in a biography on Brian I thought how can one find a melody on that? It lacks structure! It's even worse to make music on that than on a Shakespeare sonnet and sonnets were common to be sung at their time. But 16th century people had a different feeling of structure than we do now. What Kind of poem is Brian's - you must tell me.
I'm not even sure that people who are musically gifted can hum a melody and turn that into music. I've met a lot of musicians who were quite gifted but couldn't write anything or even add to pre-written lyrics.

It's a poem thus isn't meant to be read as a song. Is it 100% sure that it's even by him?

Could a song lyric be developed from what is written? Yup.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-11 23:01 by His Majesty.

This is beautiful...

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JJHMick
When I first read the Thank You For Being There lyrics in a biography on Brian I thought how can one find a melody on that? It lacks structure! It's even worse to make music on that than on a Shakespeare sonnet and sonnets were common to be sung at their time. But 16th century people had a different feeling of structure than we do now. What Kind of poem is Brian's - you must tell me.
I'm not even sure that people who are musically gifted can hum a melody and turn that into music. I've met a lot of musicians who were quite gifted but couldn't write anything or even add to pre-written lyrics.

I don't think it's song, it's probably just some poem written for someone. If he told someone it's a song, it could be an attempt to make a specific impression on someone. How old was he, 22? It doesn't really say anything. Anita said he recorded stuff all the time and never dared to risk being laughed at in the studio. So he played cool of course. Pity. He really could have done something outside the band, or just developed something deeper with Keith after Ruby Tuesday but even without Anita that sounds unlikely. It's just the way of the 60s image of young cocky brits anachronistically cowriting songs together in a living room. Blame it on Lennon/McCartney.

So what part of Ruby Tuesday did Brian write? And if he did have a major roll in writing it, it seems like he could have written other songs in the 1965-67 time frame and not been laughed at! Doesn't make sense!

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His Majesty
This is beautiful...

Reminds me a bit of this below, but it's not as good as Joni IMO.

A simple, "yes it is beautiful", would have been enough.

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2000 LYFH
So what part of Ruby Tuesday did Brian write? And if he did have a major roll in writing it, it seems like he could have written other songs in the 1965-67 time frame and not been laughed at! Doesn't make sense!

Of course it makes sense. They are humans. Brian too. Anita said it. He didn't want to be ridiculed. Tensions were flying high, they were young, two alpha males and the third one on the rise. Or maybe none and or just one, who used to be. Boy band strain. Money. Business.

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Mathijs
I don't know if anyone can write songs. I myself have added bits and pieces to music, but never was nowhere near proper songwriting. When I had a small piece of melody I could offer, the two songwriting guys in the band already had 10, which all where better, more interesting or more original. I've learned over the years, but it sitll isn't overly original I come up with -compared to proper songwriters.

And I can see Brian trying to offer some 12 bar blues to Jagger and Richards, only to get snubbed 'we're now working on this riff and melody line we call 'Satisfaction'. It's the George Harrison syndrome.

Mathijs

I can picture that snubbing, too.....

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His Majesty
A simple, "yes it is beautiful", would have been enough.

As I was listening to it I couldn't help expecting "I've looked at life from both sides now" to enter.

I believe Brian could have been a song writer, but the Rolling Stones as a band really wasn't a great environment for that outside of Keith and Mick after a certain point. In the earlier years Brian did write songs and present some to Andrew Oldham. I think he just gave up after Oldham forged the Keith/Mick team.

Tony Calder claims "There were definitely acetates of his ( Brian's ) stuff." I played one to Andrew and said "This is not a bad song!" Andrew's response was "@#$%& off!"

Even Jimmy Page worked with Brian on more than one occasion and said that "he knew what he was doing" and knew what he wanted. I think it's just a matter of having the right people around you, like anything else. Some people work better together and synergize better

Brian's influence just gradually diminished, giving way to Oldham's vision for the band, but in the beginning Brian even used to go to the studio and do sponge jobs over some of Keith's guitar parts. Apparently Brian thought they were not up to snuff. This seems to suggest that keith was not necessarily the superior guitar player like most people believe. This is probably why Brian was typically the rhythm player; because he was the more experienced musician and had better timing. There are many testimonials and quotes from people attesting to the fact that Brian was the better musician of the band. Mick even used to admit that. We can speculate that Brian could do leads and solos too, but perhaps it just wasn't his role. After all, Ian Stuart said that when Keith and Brian practiced you couldn't tell them apart. They would take turns going up and down the scales. They were like each other's left and right hand.


Regardless of what Keith says nowadays, he used to be very vocal about his disappointment in Brian for losing interest in the guitar. Apparently he held him in high regard at one point.

Okay, I kind of went away from songwriting and into guitar playing, sorry.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-16 00:37 by Brennos.

On which songs did he do those sponge jobs, and how did they make it work on the 4 track?

Welcome, btw

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Mathijs
I don't know if anyone can write songs. I myself have added bits and pieces to music, but never was nowhere near proper songwriting. When I had a small piece of melody I could offer, the two songwriting guys in the band already had 10, which all where better, more interesting or more original. I've learned over the years, but it sitll isn't overly original I come up with -compared to proper songwriters.

And I can see Brian trying to offer some 12 bar blues to Jagger and Richards, only to get snubbed 'we're now working on this riff and melody line we call 'Satisfaction'. It's the George Harrison syndrome.

Mathijs

At least George Harrison was on to 'something' though.

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DandelionPowderman
On which songs did he do those sponge jobs, and how did they make it work on the 4 track?

Welcome, btw

Thanks for the welcome. I'm not exactly sure which songs, but apparently it was their debut album, and it was while Oldham was out of town. Tony Bramwell ( the Beatle's aide ) was in the studio with him and said Brian was replacing one of Keith's parts with his own, and also patching up bass parts.

Bramwell claimed that every studio engineer who'd worked with the band up to that point had recognized Brian as the custodian of their sound, and the person who understood how they could transfer their live energy onto record. Perhaps this explains why Brian was the one Stone who was welcome to come to the Beatles studio whenever he wanted.

I'm inclined to believe it when I combine this claim with various other quotes and testimonials. Plus, the "I wanna be your man" session is another indicator. That song was recorded with Oldham gone as well. With Oldham gone, Brian brought the sheet music and took charge in the studio. Coincidently ( or not ), Brian takes the opportunity and actually does the lead guitar/slide solo in that song.

I always had the feeling if Brian was locked into that kitchen with Mick they still would have come up with great original material. I think songwriting can be learned and is as much a process of hard work as it is pure inspiration. Sometimes it's just a matter of having the discipline to work through the many ideas flooding in and arranging them in a coherent form. Hard to deny that Brian had many good ideas, probably just lacked in the discipline department...too busy being a rock star.

I also don't doubt ALO probably excluded Brian in his songwriting vision for whatever reason. I'm guessing Brian was just more difficult to work with since he had his own vision and large ego and Mick and Keith were more open to do whatever ALO suggested.

Curious what ALO has said about Brian in his books. Was there a sense that they didn't get along?

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Naturalust


Curious what ALO has said about Brian in his books. Was there a sense that they didn't get along?

I vaguely remember ALO saying something about how if Brian had a problem with him he never really knew about it. It seems like Brian never really stood up for himself within the band ( from what I gather ) but he did voice his chagrin to many others that have told about it. Andrew on the other hand, has called him a "@#$%&" and it's pretty clear to me he didn't like him.

If you are interested in Brian I very much recommend Paul Tryncka's book Brian Jones: The Making of the Rolling Stones. I don't usually like to use one source as an "end all be all", but so far it seems to be the most well researched and updated book about him. In it we here from all sorts of people about Brian; from Nico, to Eric Burden, and various others that give us more insight into the character. Not many rocks are left unturned. Many sources are consulted.

As an example, normally we all hear about how Brian was "paranoid". I've learned that multiple people said that he wasn't. His suspicions were very very legit.

Jack Nitzsche said that sometimes they simply would not let Brian contribute in the studio. He said "You know, they can be real nasty. Last night Brian just wasn't allowed to contribute. He had a harp part and they went ' All right, go into the studio." They made him do it 5-6 times, until he had blood on his lips, but they never even rolled the tape.

NME journalist and author, Chris Hutchins, said that he once walked in on Klein, Oldham, and Keith talking about how they can get rid of Brian. They were discussing how they could "ease him out of the band." This was as early as 1965. So not only did Brian have his own flaws, but he also had others working against him ( the band, management, cops etc. ). He just slowly disintegrated over the years. I know some people say he was too sensitive, and maybe he was, but I don't think anyone can hold up to that for very long, especially when you can be your own worst enemy at times.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-16 12:30 by Brennos.

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Brennos

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DandelionPowderman
On which songs did he do those sponge jobs, and how did they make it work on the 4 track?

Welcome, btw

Thanks for the welcome. I'm not exactly sure which songs, but apparently it was their debut album, and it was while Oldham was out of town. Tony Bramwell ( the Beatle's aide ) was in the studio with him and said Brian was replacing one of Keith's parts with his own, and also patching up bass parts.

Bramwell claimed that every studio engineer who'd worked with the band up to that point had recognized Brian as the custodian of their sound, and the person who understood how they could transfer their live energy onto record. Perhaps this explains why Brian was the one Stone who was welcome to come to the Beatles studio whenever he wanted.

I'm inclined to believe it when I combine this claim with various other quotes and testimonials. Plus, the "I wanna be your man" session is another indicator. That song was recorded with Oldham gone as well. With Oldham gone, Brian brought the sheet music and took charge in the studio. Coincidently ( or not ), Brian takes the opportunity and actually does the lead guitar/slide solo in that song.

But, apart from the slide guitar, there aren't any examples or evidence of Brian playing solos or lead guitar at all (apart from some rhythmic weaving licks here and there, mainly played on the bass strings). Therefore, the sponge jobs has to be on one/some of those (or Mona), if this is true, that is.

If so, those were good decisions. His slide playing was excellent, especially on the early stuff.

I doubt that he used sheet music at all for those songs. Chords and lyrics, yes, sheets? No. he didn't play guitar that way. I know that he had taken piano lessons, but that's different. He wouldn't be sitting reading sheets on Walking The Dog. No need for it, either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-16 12:39 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman

But, apart from the slide guitar, there aren't any examples or evidence of Brian playing solos or lead guitar at all (apart from some rhythmic weaving licks here and there, mainly played on the bass strings). Therefore, the sponge jobs has to be on one/some of those (or Mona), if this is true, that is.

If so, those were good decisions. His slide playing was excellent, especially on the early stuff.

There isn't much evidence, true, but just because we haven't heard it doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't do leads or solos. Supposedly he didn't write songs either, but Bill Wyman has one of his acetates and Brian had given songs to Oldham and Calder that Andrew simply dismissed. So we haven't heard them, but he did them.

He was delegated to rhythm guitar because he had musicality and timing. Ginger Baker even said Brian used to have to correct Mick and keep him on rhythm. So that was Brian's role in the band. He was probably perfectly fine with that for a time, before the breakout of lead guitarist being perceived as being more important. I seem to recall a magazine that basically referred to Brian as just "a rhythm guitarist" and he actually took this as an insult. But by this point Brian's guitar role in the band had already been solidified and there would be no asserting himself over the Mick/Keith/Andrew triumvirate. I think this is why he eventually lost interest in the guitar, because he didn't want to be the backup guy anymore. So he went on to other unique instruments that when you hear them we can clearly say, "That's Brian."


I know I have no proof, but it seems silly to me that someone who was so influenced by the blues and played for hours and days on end with a Chuck Berry-ophile ( Keith ) couldn't do a solo. After all, like I mentioned before, Ian Stuart said Brian would go up and down that guitar just like Keith and you couldn't tell them apart if you weren't watching.

No doubt Keith skills would eventually surpass Brian's because Brian had stopped caring about the guitar. Keith was disappointed by his loss of interest in the instrument.

In later years when Brian was attempting to get something going again, he said that he picked up the guitar again and was making an effort to "get his edge back."


But really, Brian was more needed as a rhythm guitar player. It was more essential for him to play that role because Keith and Mick were lacking in that department, especially in the early years. Keith would even comment on this in later years, about how he missed having that with Brian. Mick Taylor was not much of a rhythm player.


"Sitting on the Fence" is supposedly Brian on lead. It's actually a pretty catchy lead that grew on me, lol.

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DandelionPowderman
I doubt that he used sheet music at all for those songs. Chords and lyrics, yes, sheets? No. he didn't play guitar that way. I know that he had taken piano lessons, but that's different. He wouldn't be sitting reading sheets on Walking The Dog. No need for it, either.

To be fair, I never said he did for "all those songs". I was referring to one song. I have a picture of the band arriving at the studio to record "I wanna be your man." Brian has the sheets in his hand. Maybe I can scan it later. According to those present, Brian dominated the session in Oldham's absence.

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DandelionPowderman
If so, those were good decisions. His slide playing was excellent, especially on the early stuff.

Agreed. He had great tone when it came to the slide. I absolutely love their version of "Can't be satisfied."



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-16 13:56 by Brennos.

The thing is, Brennos, the few times we have heard him play on single strings he is easily recognisable (The Last Time). If he stepped in and did a sponge job on, say, Little By Little the Stones experts would have recognised it instantly.

If he had the sheets, it was for keys and lyrics only, or for Stew or Jack. For the guitarists, the kind of music they played early on was chord and riff-based.

Brian was an excellent guitarist, but not a fluent solo guitarist – not even with the slide.

However, he was by far the best and most versatile musician the band ever had, imo.

EDIT: When I watch Keith play in Charlie is My Darling I'm pretty sure he did the intro on Sitting On The Fence as well. I'm happy to be proven wrong, though



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-16 14:06 by DandelionPowderman.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to imply that Brian was ever a superior lead player over Keith, and obviously there is no recorded evidence of that. I just think ( based on testimonials of their early practicing at edith grove ) that at one point they were close to the same level, almost indistinguishable, as Ian puts it. But as their role in the band solidified they focused more on another area. It's something that either one of them could have done. Just like after Brian was gone Keith had to focus more on rhythm with Mick Taylor and sometimes did slide. If the Stones needed a lead player, we can speculate that Brian could have stepped in to fill that role or beefed up his leads if management saw it fit to do so. It just wasn't his place in the band, nor was it the vision of Oldham and co.

And as Brian's influence diminished, obviously there wouldn't be much improvement in that department. The focal point became Mick and Keith, and as we all know the lead guitarists and singer are the stars of bands, not bass players and rhythm lol

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DandelionPowderman


Brian was an excellent guitarist, but not a fluent solo guitarist – not even with the slide.

His strength in his slide was more in his tone IMO. And in guitar it was rhythm. Two things that are often overlooked when guitarists are mostly measured by their blazing leads. I never understood why the term "technical guitarist" almost exclusively refers to their ability to do fast solos and such. Some "technical guitarists" have been sub par on rhythm and tone.

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DandelionPowderman
When I watch Keith play in Charlie is My Darling I'm pretty sure he did the intro on Sitting On The Fence as well. I'm happy to be proven wrong, though

Keith is playing the rhythm here on Charlie My Darling

[youtu.be]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-16 14:52 by Brennos.

I didn't mean by watching the Sitting On A Fence-clip. There, they are writing it, supposedly.

I meant the clip where he is playing folk, picking and playing melodies.

We don't disagree, Brennos, but I can't help noticing that you want more appreciation for Brian, and that your thoughts/statements are a bit coloured by that. Nothing wrong with that, and in many cases it might be well-deserved for Brian.

I don't think neither technique or tone was Brian's strongest side as a slide guitarist. It was the soul and the feelings he managed to convey to the listener that made him ace.

While we're at it, speculating, you know that James Phelge posts here, right? He can probably answer some of your questions.

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DandelionPowderman
I didn't mean by watching the Sitting On A Fence-clip. There, they are writing it, supposedly.

I meant the clip where he is playing folk, picking and playing melodies.

We don't disagree, Brennos, but I can't help noticing that you want more appreciation for Brian, and that your thoughts/statements are a bit coloured by that. Nothing wrong with that, and in many cases it might be well-deserved for Brian.

I don't think neither technique or tone was Brian's strongest side as a slide guitarist. It was the soul and the feelings he managed to convey to the listener that made him ace.

While we're at it, speculating, you know that James Phelge posts here, right? He can probably answer some of your questions.

I may have done some minor editing since you read my last post. But yeah, I think I would like to see a little bit more credit from the band. I mean, sure he could be a jerk and was far from flawed, but strictly within the music itself he should have been credited in more songs. Take for example how Ritchie Blackmore gets credit in Deep Purple songs. He says himself that he's not a good songwriter, but sometimes he just comes up with a riff or "spark" that becomes the seed from which that song grows around.

Point being, you don't have to be a song writer to contribute and get credit. As far as I'm concerned "Ruby Tuesday" is a Brian Jones song. And "Under my Thumb" would really be nothing without his part. But now I'm just saying old hat stuff, lol.

Honestly, it seemed like Brian wasn't really concerned about "credit" anyways, I mean sometimes. Sometimes it seems like He just wanted some appreciation from his old mates that he was losing. But who knows. Brian seemed to keep his thoughts to himself a lot, from the people he should have been asserting himself to! He didn't seem to have a problem voicing his unhappiness with those outside the band, but within the band he couldn't really get a grip back.


Phelge comes here? I think he has a book that I want to read



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-16 15:18 by Brennos.

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Brennos

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DandelionPowderman
I didn't mean by watching the Sitting On A Fence-clip. There, they are writing it, supposedly.

I meant the clip where he is playing folk, picking and playing melodies.

We don't disagree, Brennos, but I can't help noticing that you want more appreciation for Brian, and that your thoughts/statements are a bit coloured by that. Nothing wrong with that, and in many cases it might be well-deserved for Brian.

I don't think neither technique or tone was Brian's strongest side as a slide guitarist. It was the soul and the feelings he managed to convey to the listener that made him ace.

While we're at it, speculating, you know that James Phelge posts here, right? He can probably answer some of your questions.

I may have done some minor editing since you read my last post. But yeah, I think I would like to see a little bit more credit from the band. I mean, sure he could be a jerk and was far from flawed, but strictly within the music itself he should have been credited in more songs. Take for example how Ritchie Blackmore gets credit in Deep Purple songs. He says himself that he's not a good songwriter, but sometimes he just comes up with a riff or "spark" that becomes the seed from which that song grows around.

Point being, you don't have to be a song writer to contribute and get credit. As far as I'm concerned "Ruby Tuesday" is a Brian Jones song. And "Under my Thumb" would really be nothing without his part. But now I'm just saying old hat stuff, lol.

Honestly, it seemed like Brian wasn't really concerned about "credit" anyways, I mean sometimes. Sometimes it seems like He just wanted some appreciation from his old mates that he was losing. But who knows. Brian seemed to keep his thoughts to himself a lot, from the people he should have been asserting himself to! He didn't seem to have a problem voicing his unhappiness with those outside the band, but within the band he couldn't really get a grip back.


Phelge comes here? I think he has a book that I want to read

I just bought the book from him. He's sending it to you, signed.

We must distinguish between musical contributions and writing, though. The piano is indeed lovely on Ruby Tuesday, and some band members said «Brian did RT with Keith». At the same time, it's acknowledged that Keith wrote it (probably just the rough chords and the words).

UMT worked nicely on GLIYWI without the vibes, but of course it wasn't the same

Here is James's thread about his book

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DandelionPowderman

He's sending it to you, signed.

Seriously?

I am actually a bit surprised. I always thought that in the beginning Brian Jones was the better guitar player and Keith just more enthusiast than actually technically good. For that reason, I always figured that Brian Jones did most of the solos (except for All Over Now, which was by Keith, and, admittedly, is a fantastic solo).


About Brian writing songs with Keith or Mick, I think I read somewhere that Keith said that writing with Brian was impossible: he would start kidding around or taking the piss or somehow or other sabotage it. For some reason, I have trouble seeing Brian writing music with either Keith or Mick.