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2000 LYFH


OK let's talk about lyrics! At what point would a second person contributing to the lyrics receive credit? Can they add 1 word, or is it 1 sentence or does it have to be a full verse or chorus? How about if they came up with the name of the song and nothing else?

Grey areas that ends up just being about who ever is in the band, business dealings etc etc.

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2000 LYFH

The Cream song "Badge" was written by Clapton and Harrison, but Ringo added the line "I told you 'bout the swans that they live in the park". He did not receive credit at all, but should have he?

Technically, yes.

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His Majesty

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2000 LYFH


OK let's talk about lyrics! At what point would a second person contributing to the lyrics receive credit? Can they add 1 word, or is it 1 sentence or does it have to be a full verse or chorus? How about if they came up with the name of the song and nothing else?

Grey areas that ends up just being about who ever is in the band, business dealings etc etc.

Exactly, let's say if you happen to be a Rolling Stones manager, and you contribute as much as changing one word in lyrics, from "Times" to "Tears", you WILL get a one third of the song credits...

Or then again, if you happen to be the girlfriend of the band's frontman, and you contribute rather strongly to the lyrical content of a song about a man lying in a hospital bed, you will need to fight for several years to get any credition...

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 20:28 by Doxa.

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DancelittleSister

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DandelionPowderman

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DancelittleSister

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DandelionPowderman
If someone present you a song you don't «write» a bass line for it, you add it to the song. Without the song that bass line probably never would exist.

On the other hand, if Bill hadn't come up with the great bass track on "Miss You", the song might have ended up in the vaults? Songwriting is not always the virtue that it seems to be.

The link below is a nice read, probably a bit outdated. Halfway it's about the Glimmer Twins.

[lawyerdrummer.com]

I'm sure you mean «Billy» here?

No, Bill Perks for sure. I'll quote a professional:

Which method is best for you?

The R.E.M./Chili Pep­pers method is great if every­one in the band is cru­cial to the sound and suc­cess of the band. But if one or more mem­bers fail to carry their weight on a reg­u­lar basis, then you’ll only resent them and be unfair to your own input by giv­ing them an equal share of the songwriting.

The Rolling Stones/Neil Young approach works if you have enough money to “hire” your band mates, assum­ing your band mates are will­ing to give up their cre­ative rights in exchange for a fee. Most bands, how­ever, can­not afford to hire band mates, par­tic­u­larly in the early years. If this is your real­ity, and your drummer/guitarist/singer sim­ply does not con­tribute at all to the song­writ­ing process, you’ll want to have a can­did dis­cus­sion on song­writ­ing splits and whether or not they’re going to be included. It could be the most impor­tant dis­cus­sion of your music career.

It is impor­tant to remem­ber that you want an arrange­ment that will keep every­one in the band happy, and more impor­tantly, keep the cre­ative juices flowing.

Maybe I was unclear. Bill didn't come up with that bassline. Billy did.

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His Majesty

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Naturalust
One thing that is clear is that the person who comes up with the lyrics and melody certainly deserves credit and always gets at least part of it.

Hah, if only.

I'm not talking about people who come up with a partial lyric, or perhaps change a note or two in the melody. But musicians who write the great majority lyrics and melody for a song are almost always credited in my experience. Perhaps there are cases where hungry songwriters have sold their publishing early on or have been exploited or stole from, either intentionally or not.

What specifically are you referring to?

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His Majesty

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2000 LYFH

The Cream song "Badge" was written by Clapton and Harrison, but Ringo added the line "I told you 'bout the swans that they live in the park". He did not receive credit at all, but should have he?

Technically, yes.

I don't agree at all. There has to be a threshold of contribution. What if some random woman who popped pills had said to Mick and keith one day in 1963 "oh yes, they're mother's little helper, i bet you could write a song about it" would she get songwriting credit? of course not.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 20:46 by Turner68.

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Doxa

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His Majesty

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2000 LYFH


OK let's talk about lyrics! At what point would a second person contributing to the lyrics receive credit? Can they add 1 word, or is it 1 sentence or does it have to be a full verse or chorus? How about if they came up with the name of the song and nothing else?

Grey areas that ends up just being about who ever is in the band, business dealings etc etc.

Exactly, let's say if you happen to be a Rolling Stones manager, and you contribute as much as changing one word in lyrics, from "Times" to "Tears", you WILL get a one third of the song credits...

Or then again, if you happen to be the girlfriend of the band's frontman, and you contribute rather strongly to the lyrical content of a song about a man lying in a hospital bed, you will need to fight for several years to get any credition...

- Doxa

...or not as the case may be.


[www.45cat.com]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 21:00 by Deltics.

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DandelionPowderman

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DancelittleSister

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DandelionPowderman

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DancelittleSister

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DandelionPowderman
If someone present you a song you don't «write» a bass line for it, you add it to the song. Without the song that bass line probably never would exist.

On the other hand, if Bill hadn't come up with the great bass track on "Miss You", the song might have ended up in the vaults? Songwriting is not always the virtue that it seems to be.

The link below is a nice read, probably a bit outdated. Halfway it's about the Glimmer Twins.

[lawyerdrummer.com]

I'm sure you mean «Billy» here?

No, Bill Perks for sure. I'll quote a professional:

Which method is best for you?

The R.E.M./Chili Pep­pers method is great if every­one in the band is cru­cial to the sound and suc­cess of the band. But if one or more mem­bers fail to carry their weight on a reg­u­lar basis, then you’ll only resent them and be unfair to your own input by giv­ing them an equal share of the songwriting.

The Rolling Stones/Neil Young approach works if you have enough money to “hire” your band mates, assum­ing your band mates are will­ing to give up their cre­ative rights in exchange for a fee. Most bands, how­ever, can­not afford to hire band mates, par­tic­u­larly in the early years. If this is your real­ity, and your drummer/guitarist/singer sim­ply does not con­tribute at all to the song­writ­ing process, you’ll want to have a can­did dis­cus­sion on song­writ­ing splits and whether or not they’re going to be included. It could be the most impor­tant dis­cus­sion of your music career.

It is impor­tant to remem­ber that you want an arrange­ment that will keep every­one in the band happy, and more impor­tantly, keep the cre­ative juices flowing.

Maybe I was unclear. Bill didn't come up with that bassline. Billy did.

Preston indeed, my bad, but it's all about the bigger picture of course .

"It took some changing and polishing, but the basic idea was Billy's."

Bill Wyman.

It doesn't matter if you agree Turner68. It's an intentional contribution to a song.

Your example... someone intentionally gifts thm a hook line and even suggests they should write a song about it. Lol. No song without the pill popper.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 21:05 by His Majesty.

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2000 LYFH
but Ringo added the line "I told you 'bout the swans that they live in the park". He did not receive credit at all, but should have he?

Did he, really? I love that line. Hmm, perhaps he sold have recieved a Ronnie-style 'inspiration' credit. I don't know, though. It can get murky, of course.

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Naturalust


I'm not talking about people who come up with a partial lyric, or perhaps change a note or two in the melody. But musicians who write the great majority lyrics and melody for a song are almost always credited in my experience. Perhaps there are cases where hungry songwriters have sold their publishing early on or have been exploited or stole from, either intentionally or not.

What specifically are you referring to?

The bit at the end. -

"Let's have to bridges instead of one in this song".

That's also an intentional contribution that changes the song. But would you look in the mirror and say "I wrote this song" because of that contribution?

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Doxa

Exactly, let's say if you happen to be a Rolling Stones manager, and you contribute as much as changing one word in lyrics, from "Times" to "Tears", you WILL get a one third of the song credits...


- Doxa

A perfect example of the bullshit that can be behind a song writing credit on a record.

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DandelionPowderman
"Let's have to bridges instead of one in this song".

That's also an intentional contribution that changes the song. But would you look in the mirror and say "I wrote this song" because of that contribution?

There's no alteration of lyrics or melody with that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 21:12 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman
"Let's have to bridges instead of one in this song".

That's also an intentional contribution that changes the song. But would you look in the mirror and say "I wrote this song" because of that contribution?

There's no alteration of lyrics or melody with that.

If the second bridge includes additions lyrics and/or melody, there certainly could be.

If I did it I obviously wouldn't look in the mirror and say "I wrote that song" but I might say " I helped write that song". Too much "I" and not enough "we" is never a good thing where creative collaboration is concerned, imo.

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Naturalust

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman
"Let's have to bridges instead of one in this song".

That's also an intentional contribution that changes the song. But would you look in the mirror and say "I wrote this song" because of that contribution?

There's no alteration of lyrics or melody with that.

If the second bridge includes additions lyrics and/or melody, there certainly could be.

If I did it I obviously wouldn't look in the mirror and say "I wrote that song" but I might say " I helped write that song". Too much "I" and not enough "we" is never a good thing where creative collaboration is concerned, imo.

I was hinting about the working ethics. One person has spent days on writing a song, while the other one, after having it presented, suggests an adjustment in the arrangement which leads to a change.

If they spent days, they should maybe have just brought in the rough idea earlier and saved some time.

That's what you do, right?

A real emotional piece, with lyrics you are really proud of, and then: "No, I better stop this, so the lads can improve it"..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 22:17 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman
That's what you do, right?

A real emotional piece, with lyrics you are really proud of, and then: "No, I better stop this, so the lads can improve it"..

With Jones or Taylor in the band? @#$%& right!!

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Naturalust
These days publishing and songwriting credits are sometimes create some fierce competition between band members. Besides touring, these credits are where the most income comes from...commercials, soundtracks, etc. And it is the gift that keeps giving. I have friends in very successful pop bands who, whenever they come together to make a new record, individually work very hard in the initial sessions to try to get their material considered for the record and a piece of the publishing is everyone's goal.

How songwriting credits are determined is obviously up to the band and there are many ways it's done. The strict copyright definition which credits only the lyrics and melody, while legally correct, it somewhat outdated and a leftover from the days when sheet music sales was a large source of publishing money.

Times have changed and most musicians know the importance of music, licks, bass lines and other factors in song creation. I have lots of respect for bands who share the publishing equally no matter who comes up with the songs, the spirit of such an arrangement takes the business crap out of the music and, imo, allows the band to concentrate on the important job of making the music best and using the best ideas no matter who came up with them.

It's certainly not as simple as the person who initially wrote the song and brought it to the others is the sole "writer". Plenty of stuff can be added by others after they have heard the initial sketch which alters and improves the song in a way which I believe they should share writers credit. The fact is that these things are very subjective and while defined in a legal sense are far from clear in a practical sense. One thing that is clear is that the person who comes up with the lyrics and melody certainly deserves credit and always gets at least part of it.

A great post.

I bolded the part that I think is crucial when debating here the song credition business.

As far as I can see Mick and Keith started as a pure 'Tin Pan Alley' writers, that is, making traditionally songs by themselves 'at home', Keith writing most of the melody part, and Mick of lyrics'. Then they offered these rather complete tunes to others to record (sometimes even to the Stones). At the same time they had, within the band, the Nanker Phelge pseudonym in use as well, most of them being impromptu collective blues jams, or sort of blues replicas with added original lyrics or something, quickly improvised in the studio.

As the times goes by, and the guys had more time and luxury to use in studio and develop their songs there, these two routines seemed to go together, and whatever would have been resulted from Stones recording sessions, would be attributed to Jagger/Richard, no matter how sketchy the initial 'songs' might have been. Keith's method, the one he has been even proud of (and why not), been that of using the studio ("laboratory") as a crucial part in the creation of a song, and that of the others being there contributing to the shape of songs. Mick, by contrast, seem to have more maintained this traditional 'Tin Pan Alley' method throughout the years, having the songs more finished and written in paper when entering the studio.

Anyway, this has been the routine of the Stones recording/credition policies for decades, and they - being who they are in the business - have no any reason to rethink their customs (they seem to have such a strong, institution-like foundation in their routines that they don't even mind other people even whining about it - for example, they let Ron Wood to describe how difficult it is getting a credit in IN ACCORDING TO THE ROLLING STONES). It is Mick and Keith's band, and they have the right to do whatever they please. I don't think there ever was ever any big discussion ever, or 'democratic' process behind it, how things turned out to be; Mick and Keith - as natural song-writers - with the help and probably example of Andrew Loog Oldham just took the control, and the rest more or less okayed it. The power is not given, it is taken. After Andrew had gone Mick and Keith were the only bosses in the band and it was up to them decide these matters - whose songs or ideas would be listened to, and whose contribution is seem to be enough to serve an actual credition. Mick Taylor seemingly still wonders why on earth he got part of the credits for "Ventilator Blues", and not for some other songs...

I guess the secret, unspoken deal behind the 'order' is that the rest of them are 'paid off' enough by other means. Even Bill Wyman who has been bitter decades later, seemed still to having accepted that the things could have been much worse. Even though he in STONE ALONE sounded jealous for Mick and Keith's song-writing credition money, he at the same time was buying new cars and country homes, not to forget all those thousands encounters with the fan girls around the world... It was sensible to let Mick and Keith lead the ship... and if the cost of living that kind of life was that of missing some credits, that was probably not such a big deal.

But in the end, and I think this is important, there are two different issues - that of writing a song and that of having the power to control the credits. I guess most of the discussion here concerns the first - what we feel like what is right or wrong, should someone to be credited, or so (which is a sort of theoretical discussion, or even an ethical one) - but, however, it is in the end the latter that matters most in practise. That of do we trust that Mick and Keith make always the right judgment in their choices. I actually don't have an opinion there, but let's say I am very critical towards the accounts that too hastily take those decisions by two men corresponding to the facts in the world.

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 22:47 by Doxa.

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman
That's what you do, right?

A real emotional piece, with lyrics you are really proud of, and then: "No, I better stop this, so the lads can improve it"..

With Jones or Taylor in the band? @#$%& right!!

Yeah, after all they wrote Rice Crispies and Leather Jacket. I wasn't thinking straight

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DandelionPowderman

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman
That's what you do, right?

A real emotional piece, with lyrics you are really proud of, and then: "No, I better stop this, so the lads can improve it"..

With Jones or Taylor in the band? @#$%& right!!

Yeah, after all they wrote Rice Crispies and Leather Jacket. I wasn't thinking straight

Well, atleast I know what you REALLY think of them both now.

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DandelionPowderman

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Naturalust

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman
"Let's have to bridges instead of one in this song".

That's also an intentional contribution that changes the song. But would you look in the mirror and say "I wrote this song" because of that contribution?

There's no alteration of lyrics or melody with that.

If the second bridge includes additions lyrics and/or melody, there certainly could be.

If I did it I obviously wouldn't look in the mirror and say "I wrote that song" but I might say " I helped write that song". Too much "I" and not enough "we" is never a good thing where creative collaboration is concerned, imo.

I was hinting about the working ethics. One person has spent days on writing a song, while the other one, after having it presented, suggests an adjustment in the arrangement which leads to a change.

Understood, but days of writing doesn't automatically trump minutes of true inspiration where songwriting is concerned, imo. If that single adjustment was truly important, inspirational and made the song work much better it doesn't really matter that the person was able too do so relatively quickly. It's easy for a songwriter to get "stuck" after spending a lot of time on a tune and often a new a fresh perspective is just what the song needs.

That being said I understand the value and importance in taking the time to truly work out the details, arrangement and meat of a song in the interest of making a complete work. The process is often more perspiration than inspiration and people who work hard at it are usually the best songsmiths, imo.

But, I also believe that the very concept of personal ownership of songs can be a trap to future creativity. Like Keith, I think the process, at it's root, is really just a way of channeling stuff that is already out there, free to anybody who had the antennae tuned properly and when people get too hung up on the concept of "my song" they are doomed to unsuccessfully look inside instead of outside of themselves...for the magic sparks anyway.

Am i right in thinking that One More Shot (2012) is really a Richards/Jordan composition but because it ends up being recorded by The Stones, as distinct from Keith solo, it ends up with Mick getting the 50% credit.

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jlowe
Am i right in thinking that One More Shot (2012) is really a Richards/Jordan composition but because it ends up being recorded by The Stones, as distinct from Keith solo, it ends up with Mick getting the 50% credit.

33 percent, and don't forget the "na na nas"

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His Majesty
It doesn't matter if you agree Turner68. It's an intentional contribution to a song.

Your example... someone intentionally gifts thm a hook line and even suggests they should write a song about it. Lol. No song without the pill popper.

of course the pill popping mother wouldn't get credit for it, don't tell me you really think otherwise....? she did nothing to write a song, she threw out an idea. just as ringo did when he suggested that line for badge. i can't imagine it occurred to any of them, including ringo, to give him credit.

these matters aren't black and white, and a threshold of contribution usually needs to be met.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-27 00:21 by Turner68.

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Turner68


of course the pill popping mother wouldn't get credit for it, don't tell me you really think otherwise....? she did nothing to write a song, she threw out an idea. just as ringo did when he suggested that line for badge. i can't imagine it occurred to any of them, including ringo, to give him credit.

these matters aren't black and white, and a threshold of contribution usually needs to be met.

Some get credit for doing nothing.

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His Majesty

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Turner68


of course the pill popping mother wouldn't get credit for it, don't tell me you really think otherwise....? she did nothing to write a song, she threw out an idea. just as ringo did when he suggested that line for badge. i can't imagine it occurred to any of them, including ringo, to give him credit.

these matters aren't black and white, and a threshold of contribution usually needs to be met.

Some get credit for doing nothing.

yes. i agree with your general sentiment - these are just as/ more often business arrangements than they are bona fide reflections of artistic contributions.

i thought the article dancelittlesister posted sounded like a reasonable summary of things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-27 13:35 by Turner68.

Over the years I have spoken with people very close to Brian and he did write a few songs, whether they were fully completed has always been in debate. Many, many years ago I acquired some master tapes of The Rolling Stones from the years 1966 till 1970.
Many were 1/2 inch tape reel to reel tapes that were 4 track recordings at 15 IPS. A few from 1968 were 2 inch tapes that were 8 track recordings also at 15 IPS. But within these were a few 1/4 inch 10 inch reels, one which read B.Jones; on it was recordings Brian made in 1969. One was a slow number called "Anybody Seen My Baby", another was a track titled either "Chow Time" or "Have a cup of Tea" there was also a slow bluesy instrumental track, that had lots of keyboard. Also a tape with the Bombay Sisters that Brian must have been working on or producing, I am not sure what his contribution was for the song. I also have a 10inch reel to Reel that had some of the Pipes of Pan of JouJouka recordings but I do not know if it is outtakes from the L.P. that was released or the L.P. itself..
Some of the people that I spoke to over the years about Brian's songwriting and recordings were Anita Pallenberg, Alexis Korner, Andrew Oldham, George Chkiantz, Gene Pitney, Stash and Ian Stewart to name a few.. Some said they recall hearing basic tracks unfinished (as were the recordings I had of Brian's music) none with titles as far as I recalled. So here are a few more Brian Jones tracks to add to the list.

Did that song Anybody Seen My Baby perchance sound like a rap/hip-hop song or anything?

But on a more serious note, if you really own these master tapes of Brian Jones compositions, we IORRians would like to hear them, so if you could please post them on here somehow, it would be much appreciated. I for one would very much like to hear what Brian's songs sounded like, despite their denouncement by various people associated with the Stones.

Again, if you could post them here somehow, that would be very cool.

"I hope you didn't record any of this""No I didn't"

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Turner68
coming up with great ideas, instrumentation, intros, etc. does not constitute songwriting.

Perhaps, but then slapping your lyrics over someone else's musical arrangement shouldn't constitute song writing either. Maybe we should clarify exactly what song writing is. Can't a song be written without lyrics? What I'm getting at is this... If someone basically comes up with the melody and arrangement of the song ( like Brian did with Ruby Tuesday ) didn't they basically write it? At the very least they were a major component of the song writing process. Keith added updated lyrics, and no doubt he should be credited for that, but the core of that song is basically Brian.

So why is it that someone could add lyrics to a song and be a "song writer" but if they add instruments, melodies, and accents they cannot? I don't think song writing should be defined only by lyrics. Everybody in a band who contributed to the song in some fashion helped "write it" IMHO

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DandelionPowderman
Adding stuff to a song someone has written is not writing the song.

If I spent two days writing a song, and some bass player came up with a bassline that altered the song somewhat he/she would never get songwriting credit. Simply because he/she didn't write the song.

You don't see the difference here?

Similarly, If I spent days writing a song and came up with the melody and musical arrangements, and then someone else added the lyrics on top of it, I'd be a little pissed if they said that "they" wrote the song. No.... "WE" wrote the song.


But that seems to be the difference between many songwriters ( or contributors? ) and Brian Jones. Brian didn't seem to care so much about "getting credit" per say. If he was, well, he didn't really demonstrate that nor was he very assertive on that matter. It really seems like he just wanted some recognition from the band that he was losing. A "pat on the back" or a "thank you" from his old mates probably would have sufficed for him, but he felt he wasn't getting that.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-30 21:18 by Brennos.