Tell Me :
Talk
I agree with this perspective.
It's interesting to look at another industry that has more complex rules about such things and see what can be gleaned as far as what others have decided to be "fair"
When it comes to screenplays in the film industry, generally you have to have contribute at least 1/3 of the screenplay to receive credit. If you think of a line (e.g. "You talkin' to me?") or a scene you don't get any credit, no matter how important the line is to the movie. If you write an entire screenplay, but it gets re-written, you get a "story by" credit but no screenwriting credit (I'd argue this is roughly what happened with Mr Tambourine Man).
It's also interesting to look at what happens with actors - often they are expected or encouraged to improvise their lines, come up with lines, etc.
Indeed the whole "You talking' to me" scene from Taxi Driver, one of the most famous in movie history, was improvised by DeNiro. Does he get screenwriting credit? Of course not.
[www.youtube.com]
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 17:34 by Turner68.
it seems to be up to the band. in U2 and Led Zeppelin, you might get credit.
I'm aware of that..
Other songs start with vocals only.
The point?
My point was that someone has written a song, he plays it for the other musicians, they rehearse it, someone comes up with a bass line because he has heard that song - hence he didn't write the song
If the song is changed due to anothers contribution they have aided in the writing of that song.
All fine so long as other contributions don't change the song. As in the melody, it's notes and/or rhythm of those notes.
There they might write songs as well? We know John Paul Jones did. Bonzo came up with weird stuff they used in their songs. Might say he did some untraditional writing.
The rest were probably adding the full band (or three of them) for credits, since they didn't really write the songs they nicked
No, they have aided in the arranging of that song, unless they are jamming sketches together.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 17:43 by DandelionPowderman.
Yes.
If I suggest something that changes the lyrics or melody I have contributed to the writing of that song.
i think of it more as up to the band/core songwriter.
as i pointed out above, in the film industry you have to have written 1/3 of the movie in order to get any credit. there has to be some minimum threshold, or no one would ever ask anyone else for input on the song as it could mean large amounts of money lost.
it seems to be a judgement call as to where the "line" is.
Not if the song as initially presented is changed due to someone elses contribution.
Of course it depends on the routines for it in the band.
But when you have the routine of a team writing songs, presenting them to the band and band members after hearing the songs repeatedly and rehearsing them come up with cool stuff, it's not the same as writing the songs.
There are of course borderline cases, but the principle is important for a songwriter.
LOL, you know perfectly well that this depends of the amount of change. If the song is totally unrecognisable after going through the mill, then perhaps.
For minor changes, no, definitely not.
Take Slave. It was recorded in 1976. All the backing tracks were done. Then comes Sonny Rollins and he changed it drastically. But he was still merely adding to it, rather than writing it. His contributions weren't urgently needed, they were just great. So is the instrumental from 1976.
By your definition, Rollins wrote the song.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 17:51 by DandelionPowderman.
Many of those songs being rough ideas, sketches etc.
Regardless, if their contributions change the song from how it was initially presented it is contributing to the writing of that song.
Then call up Flaco Jimenez to give him the credits for Sweethearts Together
Minor changes can have drastic affects.
Did his contribution alter the melody of the song?
Better to use examples from Brian era.
This is an ideal case, and it doesn't mean if that happens, for example, in your world of experience, that doesn't mean that it happens alike everywhere, everytime when a piece of music is constructed.
There are lots of grey areas, starting with the compotents of the sentence "writing a song" - "writing" and "song"... the practises and concepts vary..
I do understand the idea that 'keep it simple', and I see many people (for example, here) have strong intuitions how the things should go, or even, how they in reality go, but for me the story in the realm of creativity is not that simple (I could say: naive)... But for that reason I have always find this topic fascinating.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 18:06 by Doxa.
No, Bill Perks for sure. I'll quote a professional:
Which method is best for you?
The R.E.M./Chili Peppers method is great if everyone in the band is crucial to the sound and success of the band. But if one or more members fail to carry their weight on a regular basis, then you’ll only resent them and be unfair to your own input by giving them an equal share of the songwriting.
The Rolling Stones/Neil Young approach works if you have enough money to “hire” your band mates, assuming your band mates are willing to give up their creative rights in exchange for a fee. Most bands, however, cannot afford to hire band mates, particularly in the early years. If this is your reality, and your drummer/guitarist/singer simply does not contribute at all to the songwriting process, you’ll want to have a candid discussion on songwriting splits and whether or not they’re going to be included. It could be the most important discussion of your music career.
It is important to remember that you want an arrangement that will keep everyone in the band happy, and more importantly, keep the creative juices flowing.
Only right if in all instances the lyrics and/or melody was presented first and that they were firm, clear and defined and went through no changes due to the influence of the other members of the band and session musicians etc.
We know some songs were presented as rough ideas which then evolved through playing with ideas being thrown in by everyone...
... others were presented as essentially complete and it was basically just a case of find an arrangement.
One can change, intentionally or unintentionally, a melody via an instrumental contribution.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 20:05 by His Majesty.
Hah, if only.
OK let's talk about lyrics! At what point would a second person contributing to the lyrics receive credit? Can they add 1 word, or is it 1 sentence or does it have to be a full verse or chorus? How about if they came up with the name of the song and nothing else?
The Cream song "Badge" was written by Clapton and Harrison, but Ringo added the line "I told you 'bout the swans that they live in the park". He did not receive credit at all, but should have he?
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
Turner68
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:31
Quote
His Majesty
Songs come to be in so many ways, and so many of those ways create situations where the contributions can and do affect what the song finally becomes.
These situations and related contributions can be noted or completely ignored when it comes to the names on the song writing credit... business.
I agree with this perspective.
It's interesting to look at another industry that has more complex rules about such things and see what can be gleaned as far as what others have decided to be "fair"
When it comes to screenplays in the film industry, generally you have to have contribute at least 1/3 of the screenplay to receive credit. If you think of a line (e.g. "You talkin' to me?") or a scene you don't get any credit, no matter how important the line is to the movie. If you write an entire screenplay, but it gets re-written, you get a "story by" credit but no screenwriting credit (I'd argue this is roughly what happened with Mr Tambourine Man).
It's also interesting to look at what happens with actors - often they are expected or encouraged to improvise their lines, come up with lines, etc.
Indeed the whole "You talking' to me" scene from Taxi Driver, one of the most famous in movie history, was improvised by DeNiro. Does he get screenwriting credit? Of course not.
[www.youtube.com]
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 17:34 by Turner68.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:35
Adding stuff to a song someone has written is not writing the song.
If I spent two days writing a song, and some bass player came up with a bassline that altered the song somewhat he/she would never get songwriting credit. Simply because he/she didn't write the song.
You don't see the difference here?
If I spent two days writing a song, and some bass player came up with a bassline that altered the song somewhat he/she would never get songwriting credit. Simply because he/she didn't write the song.
You don't see the difference here?
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
Turner68
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:37
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Adding stuff to a song someone has written is not writing the song.
If I spent two days writing a song, and some bass player came up with a bassline that altered the song somewhat he/she would never get songwriting credit. Simply because he/she didn't write the song.
You don't see the difference here?
it seems to be up to the band. in U2 and Led Zeppelin, you might get credit.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:38
Quote
KoenQuote
DandelionPowderman
If someone present you a song you don't «write» a bass line for it, you add it to the song. Without the song that bass line probably never would exist.
Some songs start as a bass line, for instance, Another One Bites The Dust.
I'm aware of that..
Other songs start with vocals only.
The point?
My point was that someone has written a song, he plays it for the other musicians, they rehearse it, someone comes up with a bass line because he has heard that song - hence he didn't write the song
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:38
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Adding stuff to a song someone has written is not writing the song.
If I spent two days writing a song, and some bass player came up with a bassline that altered the song somewhat he/she would never get songwriting credit. Simply because he/she didn't write the song.
You don't see the difference here?
If the song is changed due to anothers contribution they have aided in the writing of that song.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:39
Since Bill Wyman is brought into the discussion, I wonder if the credition policy was one of the reasons why Bill Wyman was such a big supporter of Led Zeppelin...
More seriously, Mathijs is partly wrong that Wyman never complained about having no credition for his bass parts. Indirectly he does it in STONE ALONE, by preferring Nanker Phelge over Jagger/Richards in regards to some songs, since the Jagger/Richards songs, according to him, changed so much in the hands by the band when brought to the studio.
I don't have an opinion who is right or wrong here, but just thinking the case from Bill's point of view: what he contributed to, say, "The Spider And The Fly" in compared to "Goin' Home" was basically rather similar - and no way lesser - as far as his 'creativity' go ("adding a bass into song"), the only difference being that he did get some pennies of the former as a composer... Suddenly there were no pennies of any new song at all...
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 17:41 by Doxa.
More seriously, Mathijs is partly wrong that Wyman never complained about having no credition for his bass parts. Indirectly he does it in STONE ALONE, by preferring Nanker Phelge over Jagger/Richards in regards to some songs, since the Jagger/Richards songs, according to him, changed so much in the hands by the band when brought to the studio.
I don't have an opinion who is right or wrong here, but just thinking the case from Bill's point of view: what he contributed to, say, "The Spider And The Fly" in compared to "Goin' Home" was basically rather similar - and no way lesser - as far as his 'creativity' go ("adding a bass into song"), the only difference being that he did get some pennies of the former as a composer... Suddenly there were no pennies of any new song at all...
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 17:41 by Doxa.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:40
Quote
DandelionPowderman
My point was that someone has written a song, he plays it for the other musicians, they rehearse it, someone comes up with a bass line because he has heard that song - hence he didn't write the song
All fine so long as other contributions don't change the song. As in the melody, it's notes and/or rhythm of those notes.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:41
Quote
Turner68Quote
DandelionPowderman
Adding stuff to a song someone has written is not writing the song.
If I spent two days writing a song, and some bass player came up with a bassline that altered the song somewhat he/she would never get songwriting credit. Simply because he/she didn't write the song.
You don't see the difference here?
it seems to be up to the band. in U2 and Led Zeppelin, you might get credit.
There they might write songs as well? We know John Paul Jones did. Bonzo came up with weird stuff they used in their songs. Might say he did some untraditional writing.
The rest were probably adding the full band (or three of them) for credits, since they didn't really write the songs they nicked
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:42
Quote
His MajestyQuote
DandelionPowderman
Adding stuff to a song someone has written is not writing the song.
If I spent two days writing a song, and some bass player came up with a bassline that altered the song somewhat he/she would never get songwriting credit. Simply because he/she didn't write the song.
You don't see the difference here?
If the song is changed due to anothers contribution they have aided in the writing of that song.
No, they have aided in the arranging of that song, unless they are jamming sketches together.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 17:43 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:43
Quote
DandelionPowderman
No
Yes.
If I suggest something that changes the lyrics or melody I have contributed to the writing of that song.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
Turner68
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:44
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Turner68Quote
DandelionPowderman
Adding stuff to a song someone has written is not writing the song.
If I spent two days writing a song, and some bass player came up with a bassline that altered the song somewhat he/she would never get songwriting credit. Simply because he/she didn't write the song.
You don't see the difference here?
it seems to be up to the band. in U2 and Led Zeppelin, you might get credit.
There they might write songs as well? We know John Paul Jones did. Bonzo came up with weird stuff they used in their songs. Might say he did some untraditional writing.
The rest were probably adding the full band (or three of them) for credits, since they didn't really write the songs they nicked
i think of it more as up to the band/core songwriter.
as i pointed out above, in the film industry you have to have written 1/3 of the movie in order to get any credit. there has to be some minimum threshold, or no one would ever ask anyone else for input on the song as it could mean large amounts of money lost.
it seems to be a judgement call as to where the "line" is.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:46
Quote
DandelionPowderman
No, they have aided in the arranging of that song, unless they are jamming sketches together.
Not if the song as initially presented is changed due to someone elses contribution.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:47
Quote
Turner68Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Turner68Quote
DandelionPowderman
Adding stuff to a song someone has written is not writing the song.
If I spent two days writing a song, and some bass player came up with a bassline that altered the song somewhat he/she would never get songwriting credit. Simply because he/she didn't write the song.
You don't see the difference here?
it seems to be up to the band. in U2 and Led Zeppelin, you might get credit.
There they might write songs as well? We know John Paul Jones did. Bonzo came up with weird stuff they used in their songs. Might say he did some untraditional writing.
The rest were probably adding the full band (or three of them) for credits, since they didn't really write the songs they nicked
i think of it more as up to the band/core songwriter.
as i pointed out above, in the film industry you have to have written 1/3 of the movie in order to get any credit. there has to be some minimum threshold, or no one would ever ask anyone else for input on the song as it could mean large amounts of money lost.
it seems to be a judgement call as to where the "line" is.
Of course it depends on the routines for it in the band.
But when you have the routine of a team writing songs, presenting them to the band and band members after hearing the songs repeatedly and rehearsing them come up with cool stuff, it's not the same as writing the songs.
There are of course borderline cases, but the principle is important for a songwriter.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:48
Quote
His MajestyQuote
DandelionPowderman
No, they have aided in the arranging of that song, unless they are jamming sketches together.
Not if the song as initially presented is changed due to someone elses contribution.
LOL, you know perfectly well that this depends of the amount of change. If the song is totally unrecognisable after going through the mill, then perhaps.
For minor changes, no, definitely not.
Take Slave. It was recorded in 1976. All the backing tracks were done. Then comes Sonny Rollins and he changed it drastically. But he was still merely adding to it, rather than writing it. His contributions weren't urgently needed, they were just great. So is the instrumental from 1976.
By your definition, Rollins wrote the song.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 17:51 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:50
Quote
DandelionPowderman
But when you have the routine of a team writing songs, presenting them to the band and band members after hearing the songs repeatedly and rehearsing them come up with cool stuff, it's not the same as writing the songs.
.
Many of those songs being rough ideas, sketches etc.
Regardless, if their contributions change the song from how it was initially presented it is contributing to the writing of that song.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:53
Quote
His MajestyQuote
DandelionPowderman
But when you have the routine of a team writing songs, presenting them to the band and band members after hearing the songs repeatedly and rehearsing them come up with cool stuff, it's not the same as writing the songs.
.
Many of those songs being rough ideas, sketches etc.
Regardless, if their contributions change the song from how it was initially presented it is contributing to the writing of that song.
Then call up Flaco Jimenez to give him the credits for Sweethearts Together
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:53
Quote
DandelionPowderman
LOL, you know perfectly well that this depends of the amount of change. If the song is totally unrecognisable after going through the mill, then perhaps.
For minor changes, no, definitely not.
Minor changes can have drastic affects.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
Turner68
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:53
if we remove the word "writing" from the discussion, i think everyone agrees that without Brian Jones the vast majority of great stones songs from the band's inception to 1968 would not have been as good or even the same songs had Brian not actively participated.
yes?
yes?
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:55
I think every Stones fan agree on that, Turner. And if he wrote songs, he should get all the recognition in the world. Same with Nicky.
BUT: We don't know...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 17:55 by DandelionPowderman.
BUT: We don't know...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 17:55 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: October 26, 2015 17:58
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Take Slave. It was recorded in 1976. All the backing tracks were done. Then comes Sonny Rollins and he changed it drastically. But he was still merely adding to it, rather than writing it. His contributions weren't urgently needed, they were just great. So is the instrumental from 1976.
By your definition, Rollins wrote the song.
Did his contribution alter the melody of the song?
Better to use examples from Brian era.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 26, 2015 18:00
Quote
His MajestyQuote
DandelionPowderman
Take Slave. It was recorded in 1976. All the backing tracks were done. Then comes Sonny Rollins and he changed it drastically. But he was still merely adding to it, rather than writing it. His contributions weren't urgently needed, they were just great. So is the instrumental from 1976.
By your definition, Rollins wrote the song.
Did his contribution alter the melody of the song?
Better to use examples from Brian era.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: October 26, 2015 18:05
Quote
DandelionPowderman
The point?
My point was that someone has written a song, he plays it for the other musicians, they rehearse it, someone comes up with a bass line because he has heard that song - hence he didn't write the song
This is an ideal case, and it doesn't mean if that happens, for example, in your world of experience, that doesn't mean that it happens alike everywhere, everytime when a piece of music is constructed.
There are lots of grey areas, starting with the compotents of the sentence "writing a song" - "writing" and "song"... the practises and concepts vary..
I do understand the idea that 'keep it simple', and I see many people (for example, here) have strong intuitions how the things should go, or even, how they in reality go, but for me the story in the realm of creativity is not that simple (I could say: naive)... But for that reason I have always find this topic fascinating.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 18:06 by Doxa.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: October 26, 2015 18:07
A song is a lyric and a melody. The melody has notes and rhythms. Make a intentional contribution which affects any of those and you have, technically, contributed to the writing of the song.
This of course relates to before a song has been defined, copyrighted, released etc.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 18:10 by His Majesty.
This of course relates to before a song has been defined, copyrighted, released etc.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 18:10 by His Majesty.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
DancelittleSister
()
Date: October 26, 2015 19:16
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
DancelittleSisterQuote
DandelionPowderman
If someone present you a song you don't «write» a bass line for it, you add it to the song. Without the song that bass line probably never would exist.
On the other hand, if Bill hadn't come up with the great bass track on "Miss You", the song might have ended up in the vaults? Songwriting is not always the virtue that it seems to be.
The link below is a nice read, probably a bit outdated. Halfway it's about the Glimmer Twins.
[lawyerdrummer.com]
I'm sure you mean «Billy» here?
No, Bill Perks for sure. I'll quote a professional:
Which method is best for you?
The R.E.M./Chili Peppers method is great if everyone in the band is crucial to the sound and success of the band. But if one or more members fail to carry their weight on a regular basis, then you’ll only resent them and be unfair to your own input by giving them an equal share of the songwriting.
The Rolling Stones/Neil Young approach works if you have enough money to “hire” your band mates, assuming your band mates are willing to give up their creative rights in exchange for a fee. Most bands, however, cannot afford to hire band mates, particularly in the early years. If this is your reality, and your drummer/guitarist/singer simply does not contribute at all to the songwriting process, you’ll want to have a candid discussion on songwriting splits and whether or not they’re going to be included. It could be the most important discussion of your music career.
It is important to remember that you want an arrangement that will keep everyone in the band happy, and more importantly, keep the creative juices flowing.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
Big Al
()
Date: October 26, 2015 19:45
The songwriter(s) are those responsible for the lyrics and melody, no? In that sense, Jones deserves no writing credits. Colouring an already-created melody with instrumentation - no matter how effective - does not, in my opinion, warrant a credit. I'm joining this discussion late and am somewhat of a novice in terms of what others here may know, but as a layman in my understanding, I suspect I am basically right.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
Turner68
()
Date: October 26, 2015 19:58
the link the lawyerdrummer article provided above by DanceLittleSister seems to be the definitive word on such matters.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: October 26, 2015 20:00
These days publishing and songwriting credits are sometimes create some fierce competition between band members. Besides touring, these credits are where the most income comes from...commercials, soundtracks, etc. And it is the gift that keeps giving. I have friends in very successful pop bands who, whenever they come together to make a new record, individually work very hard in the initial sessions to try to get their material considered for the record and a piece of the publishing is everyone's goal.
How songwriting credits are determined is obviously up to the band and there are many ways it's done. The strict copyright definition which credits only the lyrics and melody, while legally correct, it somewhat outdated and a leftover from the days when sheet music sales was a large source of publishing money.
Times have changed and most musicians know the importance of music, licks, bass lines and other factors in song creation. I have lots of respect for bands who share the publishing equally no matter who comes up with the songs, the spirit of such an arrangement takes the business crap out of the music and, imo, allows the band to concentrate on the important job of making the music best and using the best ideas no matter who came up with them.
It's certainly not as simple as the person who initially wrote the song and brought it to the others is the sole "writer". Plenty of stuff can be added by others after they have heard the initial sketch which alters and improves the song in a way which I believe they should share writers credit. The fact is that these things are very subjective and while defined in a legal sense are far from clear in a practical sense. One thing that is clear is that the person who comes up with the lyrics and melody certainly deserves credit and always gets at least part of it.
How songwriting credits are determined is obviously up to the band and there are many ways it's done. The strict copyright definition which credits only the lyrics and melody, while legally correct, it somewhat outdated and a leftover from the days when sheet music sales was a large source of publishing money.
Times have changed and most musicians know the importance of music, licks, bass lines and other factors in song creation. I have lots of respect for bands who share the publishing equally no matter who comes up with the songs, the spirit of such an arrangement takes the business crap out of the music and, imo, allows the band to concentrate on the important job of making the music best and using the best ideas no matter who came up with them.
It's certainly not as simple as the person who initially wrote the song and brought it to the others is the sole "writer". Plenty of stuff can be added by others after they have heard the initial sketch which alters and improves the song in a way which I believe they should share writers credit. The fact is that these things are very subjective and while defined in a legal sense are far from clear in a practical sense. One thing that is clear is that the person who comes up with the lyrics and melody certainly deserves credit and always gets at least part of it.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: October 26, 2015 20:03
Quote
Big Al
The songwriter(s) are those responsible for the lyrics and melody, no? In that sense, Jones deserves no writing credits. Colouring an already-created melody with instrumentation - no matter how effective - does not, in my opinion, warrant a credit. I'm joining this discussion late and am somewhat of a novice in terms of what others here may know, but as a layman in my understanding, I suspect I am basically right.
Only right if in all instances the lyrics and/or melody was presented first and that they were firm, clear and defined and went through no changes due to the influence of the other members of the band and session musicians etc.
We know some songs were presented as rough ideas which then evolved through playing with ideas being thrown in by everyone...
... others were presented as essentially complete and it was basically just a case of find an arrangement.
One can change, intentionally or unintentionally, a melody via an instrumental contribution.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 20:05 by His Majesty.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: October 26, 2015 20:06
Quote
Naturalust
One thing that is clear is that the person who comes up with the lyrics and melody certainly deserves credit and always gets at least part of it.
Hah, if only.
Re: Brian Jones and songwriting
Posted by:
2000 LYFH
()
Date: October 26, 2015 20:08
Quote
Big Al
The songwriter(s) are those responsible for the lyrics and melody, no? In that sense, Jones deserves no writing credits. Colouring an already-created melody with instrumentation - no matter how effective - does not, in my opinion, warrant a credit. I'm joining this discussion late and am somewhat of a novice in terms of what others here may know, but as a layman in my understanding, I suspect I am basically right.
OK let's talk about lyrics! At what point would a second person contributing to the lyrics receive credit? Can they add 1 word, or is it 1 sentence or does it have to be a full verse or chorus? How about if they came up with the name of the song and nothing else?
The Cream song "Badge" was written by Clapton and Harrison, but Ringo added the line "I told you 'bout the swans that they live in the park". He did not receive credit at all, but should have he?
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