Tell Me :
Talk
Critic John Stickney in a student newspaper (The Williams Record) in October 1967.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 12:16 by stonehearted.
That's "protest-rock", not prog (as in progressive) rock.
Yep, we sure do.
Nice Dylanisch guitarflipping from Halvdan....We call that kind of artists for MILF-hitchers in Sweden...here's example of Swedish Progg-rock:
They don't even have to give us lyrics...we know they are left-wingers and therefor Political Rockers (Jazzmen nowadays)...
2 1 2 0
I prefer 'modern music'.
I agree, Witness is right here. And when you think of it as a gothic rock song you even may gonna love it! Imagine also the make-up they used during the European 1973 tour when listening.
I never said it did, nether has Mr. D.
However, they both have something doomy and dark within the music.
Well, for that this will do as well:
P.S. In the end of video, Jagger's ass gets quite a central role...
- Doxa
Twas a bit old hat even within their own musical evolution. It's more an amalgamation of voodoo blues with a side serving of prog rock.
No way is it a proto-gothic song as it's coming at the end of gothic rock strand that appeared during psych era, there's no real link to 80's gothic music.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 20:45 by His Majesty.
As long as it ain't dance music it's fine by me.
Most definitely!
Everyone, of course, knows how great a writer you are, Doxa.
But in addition you have another asset. You are an excellent reader, too. (Without you, hardly anyone would have noticed my saying anything.) And your assets don't stop there: Apart from the mentionned, you are ever so ready and willing to put your earlier conclusions at trial. (In this case, I had not read what you had written before,)
All taken together, I really am impressed!
Even if you might have noticed it yourself, His Majesty, which I believe, the latter part of your post does not emerge that way. It is in case not kleermaker, but me that is to blame for characterizing "Dancing with Mr. D" as a proto-gothic song.
I did so, because I am well aware that the gothic rock scene might be said to belong to the '80s. Then the latter part of your post seemingly asserts that "Dancing with Mr. D" not only is too early to be part of the 80's gothic rock music, but also to late to be proto-gothic because "coming at the end of gothic rock strand that appeared during psych era".
Reading this, I search the Internet. I then find [en.wikipedia.org]
Here it can be read "According to both Pitchfork[2] and NME,[3] proto-goth bands are Joy Division,[2][3][4] Siouxsie and the Banshees,[2][3] Bauhaus[2][3] and The Cure.[2][3" Probably both you and I disagree with that. Otherwise one might read there: "Musicians who initially shaped the aesthetics and musical conventions of gothic rock include Marc Bolan,[9] The Velvet Underground,[10] The Doors,[10] David Bowie, Iggy Pop and the Sex Pistols.[10][11] ". Evidently "Dancing with Mr D" is not counted in. But it does not prevent that oneself can argue that it could. The point, however, the Wikipedia-article, even by using the proto prefix, employing it for the later bands, shows there is no established use of the term "proto-gothic" rock or date for its subjectmatter that should prevent me from using the term as I did.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: January 8, 2014 12:11
Quote
DoxaQuote
His MajestyQuote
DandelionPowderman
Dancing With Mr. D is dark, but bluesy musically. Goth is all doom and gloom, especially within the music.
The indie goth you seem to have in mind is separate and different to gothic rock ala Fever Tree up above, King Crimson - Epitaph, In the Court, etc.
If I recall right, first time 'gothic rock' was used in describing The Doors by some journalist back then.
Doxa
Critic John Stickney in a student newspaper (The Williams Record) in October 1967.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 12:16 by stonehearted.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 8, 2014 12:15
Quote
Come OnQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
His MajestyQuote
DandelionPowderman
Dancing With Mr. D is dark, but bluesy musically. Goth is all doom and gloom, especially within the music.
The indie goth you seem to have in mind is separate and different to gothic rock ala Fever Tree up above, King Crimson - Epitaph, In the Court, etc.
I know. Still, the term was more in use when the second wave of goth rock came around.
We also already had terms like symfo-rock, prog-rock or fusion to put the songs you mentioned in. I don't think they often are put in that bag, although it certainly would be correct - or am I wrong?
But do you have 'Progg-rock' in Norway Dandy like we have in Sweden, music with political messages..that's Progg in Sweden...You know 'Hoola Bandoola Band' and 'Fläsket Brinner' and stuff...
That's "protest-rock", not prog (as in progressive) rock.
Yep, we sure do.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: January 8, 2014 12:37
Thanks, Stonehearted!
But as far as "Dancing With Mr. D" goes, its musical relation to the actual genre called 'gothic rock' that self-consciously emerged in the early 80's from the post-punk (or alongside it), is rather far-reached, of course. Even more if think of its 'second wave' from the latter part of the 80's.
But still, not just lyrically, but musically there is a bit of that aesthetics and romanticism that is typical to the early gothic rock (which, funnily, was partly inspired by the glam rock from the times GOATS HEAD SOUP was created). No matter how 'bluesy' it is from constitution (like the most Stones do is), the atmosphere it creates is a rather extraordinary for them.
So the point of calling the song "gothic", is not genre-stating but more that of descriptive - giving an idea of how to locate it in regards to their output over-all - for example, to distinguish it from, say, "Start Me Up" .
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 12:40 by Doxa.
But as far as "Dancing With Mr. D" goes, its musical relation to the actual genre called 'gothic rock' that self-consciously emerged in the early 80's from the post-punk (or alongside it), is rather far-reached, of course. Even more if think of its 'second wave' from the latter part of the 80's.
But still, not just lyrically, but musically there is a bit of that aesthetics and romanticism that is typical to the early gothic rock (which, funnily, was partly inspired by the glam rock from the times GOATS HEAD SOUP was created). No matter how 'bluesy' it is from constitution (like the most Stones do is), the atmosphere it creates is a rather extraordinary for them.
So the point of calling the song "gothic", is not genre-stating but more that of descriptive - giving an idea of how to locate it in regards to their output over-all - for example, to distinguish it from, say, "Start Me Up" .
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 12:40 by Doxa.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: January 8, 2014 13:04
Qua gothic rock I meant the song "Dancing with Mr. D" as a kind of precursor to the gothic scene, like I wrote in a later post. The correct term may be proto-gothic song perhaps.
From round the time of its origin, maybe the closest I can think about, could be The New York Dolls. Maybe the song a little more "glossy" than the sound of their two (?) studio albums, which I have not listened to lately.
From round the time of its origin, maybe the closest I can think about, could be The New York Dolls. Maybe the song a little more "glossy" than the sound of their two (?) studio albums, which I have not listened to lately.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Come On
()
Date: January 8, 2014 14:16
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Come OnQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
His MajestyQuote
DandelionPowderman
Dancing With Mr. D is dark, but bluesy musically. Goth is all doom and gloom, especially within the music.
The indie goth you seem to have in mind is separate and different to gothic rock ala Fever Tree up above, King Crimson - Epitaph, In the Court, etc.
I know. Still, the term was more in use when the second wave of goth rock came around.
We also already had terms like symfo-rock, prog-rock or fusion to put the songs you mentioned in. I don't think they often are put in that bag, although it certainly would be correct - or am I wrong?
But do you have 'Progg-rock' in Norway Dandy like we have in Sweden, music with political messages..that's Progg in Sweden...You know 'Hoola Bandoola Band' and 'Fläsket Brinner' and stuff...
That's "protest-rock", not prog (as in progressive) rock.
Yep, we sure do.
Nice Dylanisch guitarflipping from Halvdan....We call that kind of artists for MILF-hitchers in Sweden...here's example of Swedish Progg-rock:They don't even have to give us lyrics...we know they are left-wingers and therefor Political Rockers (Jazzmen nowadays)...
2 1 2 0
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 8, 2014 14:24
MILF-hitchers Good one
Good one Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: January 8, 2014 17:13
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Put them in the prog section, to make kleerie happy
I prefer 'modern music'.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: January 8, 2014 17:18
Quote
Doxa
"A gothic rock song". That's a good one indeed. Next time I listen the song, I try to view it from that point of view...
- Doxa
I agree, Witness is right here. And when you think of it as a gothic rock song you even may gonna love it! Imagine also the make-up they used during the European 1973 tour when listening.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 8, 2014 17:22
Right on, kleerie! Can't believe that anyone would put DWMD in the "goth section" - love it
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: January 8, 2014 17:38
From a post on October 5th, 2009:
Whereas the socalled "first gothic novel" is considered here:
[en.wikipedia.org]
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 17:46 by Witness.
Quote
René
Comments, input and alterations are very welcome!
________________________________________________________________________________
Dancing With Mr. D
(Mick Jagger / Keith Richards)
Dynamic Sound Studios, Kingston, Jamaica, November 25 - 30 & December 6 - 21,
1972 and Island Recording Studios, London, UK, May 28 - June 20, 1973
Mick Jagger - lead vocals, backing vocals
Keith Richards - electric guitar, backing vocals
Charlie Watts - drums
Mick Taylor - electric guitar, bass, backing vocals
Nicky Hopkins - piano
Billy Preston - clavinet
Pascal - percussion
Rebop Kwakuh Baah - congas
Yeah, well, down in the graveyard where we have our tryst
The air smells sweet, the air smells sick
He never smiles, his mouth merely twists
The breath in my lungs feels clinging and thick
But I know his name, he's called Mister D, one of these days he's gonna set you free
Human skulls is hangin' right 'round his neck
The palms of my hands is clammy and wet
Lord, I was dancin', dancin', dancin' so free, dancin', dancin', dancin' so free
Dancin', Lord, keep your hand off me
Dancin' with Mister D, with Mister D, with Mister D
Will it be poison put in my glass, will it be slow or will it be fast?
The bite of a snake, the sting of a spider, a drink of Belladonna on a Toussaint night
Hiding in a corner in New York City, lookin' down a forty four in West Virginia
Lord, I was dancin', dancin', dancin' so free, dancin', dancin', dancin' so free
Dancin', Lord, keep your hand off me
Dancin' with Mister D, with Mister D, with Mister D, with Mister D, with Mister D
Dancin’ dancin’, dancin’ dancin’, dancin’ dancin’, dancin’ dancin’
Lord, I was dancin', dancin', dancin' so free, dancin', dancin', dancin' so free
Dancin', Lord, keep your hand off me
Dancin' with Mister D, loud, sing it loud, well, well
One night I was dancin' with a lady in black
Wearin' black silk gloves and a black silk hat
She looked at me longin' with black velvet eyes
She gazed at me strange all cunning and wise
Then I saw the flesh just fall off her bones
The eyes in her skull was burning like coals
Lord, have mercy, fire and brimstone, I was dancin' with Misses D
Lord, I was dancin', dancin', dancin' so free, I was dancin', dancin', dancin' so free
Lord, dancin', dancin', dancin' so free
Dancin’ dancin’, dancin’ dancin’, dancin’ dancin’, dancin’ dancin’, dancin’ dancin’…
Produced by Jimmy Miller
First released on: The Rolling Stones - “Goat’s Head Soup” LP
(Rolling Stones Records COC 59101) UK, August 31, 1973
Whereas the socalled "first gothic novel" is considered here:
[en.wikipedia.org]
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 17:46 by Witness.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 8, 2014 17:45
Musically, I mean.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: January 8, 2014 17:46
Nice conversation about calling music/rock a name and define it properly.
This time the Stones were ahead of their time with Mr D being anachronistic gothic rock and maybe that's also the reason why many fans have a problem with it. But even though it's of course not in the league of Shelter, they still were catching the time ghost pretty well with Mr D.
As for me I love both the different studio versions (there's a pretty fast outtake version available on YT) and the live versions from London and Brussels. Mr D needs some more respect in hindsight!
This time the Stones were ahead of their time with Mr D being anachronistic gothic rock and maybe that's also the reason why many fans have a problem with it. But even though it's of course not in the league of Shelter, they still were catching the time ghost pretty well with Mr D.
As for me I love both the different studio versions (there's a pretty fast outtake version available on YT) and the live versions from London and Brussels. Mr D needs some more respect in hindsight!
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 8, 2014 17:53
Ahead of their times? How do you mean?
It was a standard Keith-riff, with somewhat doomy and "scary" lyrics. The atmosphere last for about a minute, before it gets stuck on repeat and loses its effect.
The Doors and all the other bands had done this mood-pieces before the Stones, even though I have argued earlier that "Going Home" had elements of this as well - in 1966.
The make up in 1973? Already done.
It was a standard Keith-riff, with somewhat doomy and "scary" lyrics. The atmosphere last for about a minute, before it gets stuck on repeat and loses its effect.
The Doors and all the other bands had done this mood-pieces before the Stones, even though I have argued earlier that "Going Home" had elements of this as well - in 1966.
The make up in 1973? Already done.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: January 8, 2014 17:58
Damn that article of The Doors is a good one - from the times when rock music started to inspire good criticism. Insightfully put "the sophistication and cautious optismism of The Beatles" and "self-conscious hedonism of the Rolling Stones", but the crownjewel is the sentence "innovation is better than stasis as far as rock is concerned". That could be put as the motto of the times! Sad that it is long forgotten...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 18:00 by Doxa.
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 18:00 by Doxa.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: January 8, 2014 18:04
I can hardly see "Goin' Home" as a proto-gothic song.
Among the very best examples, however, must be Vanilla Fudges's version of Donovan's Season of the Witch
(Added: Of the two available versions, I hope this is the same one as is included on their third album RENAISSANCE) :
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 18:11 by Witness.
Among the very best examples, however, must be Vanilla Fudges's version of Donovan's Season of the Witch
(Added: Of the two available versions, I hope this is the same one as is included on their third album RENAISSANCE) :
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 18:11 by Witness.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 8, 2014 18:13
Quote
Witness
I can hardly see "Goin' Home" as a proto-gothic song.
Among the very best examples, however, must be Vanilla Fudges's version of Donovan's Season of the Witch
(Added: Of the two available versions, I hope this is the same one as is included on their third album RENAISSANCE) :
I never said it did, nether has Mr. D.
However, they both have something doomy and dark within the music.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: January 8, 2014 18:20
Well, if you don't find anything gothic in "Dancing with Mr. D", Dandelion, I understand from one of your earlier posts that you , in contrast to me, will find it in your mental library under "Rockers", probably behind "Crazy Mama".
Now in my edit I have to be careful with where I end one of the quotation marks that I had omitted, else you enter the song title.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 18:24 by Witness.
Now in my edit I have to be careful with where I end one of the quotation marks that I had omitted, else you enter the song title.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 18:24 by Witness.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 8, 2014 19:38
More in the dark blues rock Ventilator Blues-category, I'd say...
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: January 8, 2014 20:02
Quote
kleermaker
Imagine also the make-up they used during the European 1973 tour when listening.
Well, for that this will do as well
:P.S. In the end of video, Jagger's ass gets quite a central role...
- Doxa
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 8, 2014 20:16
Quote
kleermaker
This time the Stones were ahead of their time with Mr D...
Twas a bit old hat even within their own musical evolution. It's more an amalgamation of voodoo blues with a side serving of prog rock.
No way is it a proto-gothic song as it's coming at the end of gothic rock strand that appeared during psych era, there's no real link to 80's gothic music.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 20:45 by His Majesty.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: January 8, 2014 21:03
I think the problem with "Mr. D" is that they are aiming something different, to reinvent their sound, but they are too bounded by their own old musical routines (basically the means they use are Keith's riffs, certain blues-bases groove, etc..) It is a bit like their later updating attemps during the 80's - they just can't get their musical substance alter enough, and that leaves a rather uncertain or artificial impression (the old dog don't learn new tricks). To an extent that is the problem in GOATS HEAD SOUP generally.
There is a huge difference to EXILE ON MAIN STREET, which doesn't try to do anything like that, but concentrates solely to their own home vocabulary music, that of "Americana". They probably never have sounded so relaxed, comfortable, self-secure and convincing than they do in that record. But I very well understand the problem they had after EXILE. That card was used, and one could say they put everything they know and can in that field into that record. So what to do next? In GOATS HEAD SOUP they seemingly try to reach out, discover new paths to follow, but the band is too much a victim of their own musical funded package. The result in pieces is as convincing as Jagger's glam make-up in the clip I posted above. I have said this earlier, but I say it again: GOATS HEAD SOUP marks the moment when the Rolling Stones comes musically irrelevant. But one could also add that EXILE put them in that position that is very difficult to see how they could have any other destiny in contemporary pop scene. The non-compromised, intuition-based EXILE was such a strong statement, which put The Stones into 'timeless rock and roll space' beyond time and place, but at the same time put them into position that it was pretty hard from them to make music which is bounded on time and place, that is, to on-going trends. When you hit immortality, it is damn difficult to be a mortal again...
I think the comparison DandelionPowderman - never think of that before - uses above is a good example of the different approaches of these two albums. Basically "Ventilator Blues" and "Mr.D" both are 'simple' riff-based blues rock songs. But the EXILE song is really 'straight to the point', emphasizes the raw blues elements in it, and non-compromingly hits the listener with them. But SOUP number almost hides the original elements, and tries to create an atmosphere that offers something else, be it dreamy, ghostly, whatever - hard to put on words - both the central riff and Jagger's vocals try to reflect the lyrical content by their own means (or other way round). To my ears the results sound rather 'tricky' and the intended attempt to re-invent their sound, and get off of EXILE routines and musical realms, goes only half-way, and not maybe even there. Sounds like their musical imagination is not wide enough to wander more freely.
But still I think "gothic rock song" is an apt way to describe the results afterwards.
- Doxa
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 21:12 by Doxa.
There is a huge difference to EXILE ON MAIN STREET, which doesn't try to do anything like that, but concentrates solely to their own home vocabulary music, that of "Americana". They probably never have sounded so relaxed, comfortable, self-secure and convincing than they do in that record. But I very well understand the problem they had after EXILE. That card was used, and one could say they put everything they know and can in that field into that record. So what to do next? In GOATS HEAD SOUP they seemingly try to reach out, discover new paths to follow, but the band is too much a victim of their own musical funded package. The result in pieces is as convincing as Jagger's glam make-up in the clip I posted above. I have said this earlier, but I say it again: GOATS HEAD SOUP marks the moment when the Rolling Stones comes musically irrelevant. But one could also add that EXILE put them in that position that is very difficult to see how they could have any other destiny in contemporary pop scene. The non-compromised, intuition-based EXILE was such a strong statement, which put The Stones into 'timeless rock and roll space' beyond time and place, but at the same time put them into position that it was pretty hard from them to make music which is bounded on time and place, that is, to on-going trends. When you hit immortality, it is damn difficult to be a mortal again...
I think the comparison DandelionPowderman - never think of that before - uses above is a good example of the different approaches of these two albums. Basically "Ventilator Blues" and "Mr.D" both are 'simple' riff-based blues rock songs. But the EXILE song is really 'straight to the point', emphasizes the raw blues elements in it, and non-compromingly hits the listener with them. But SOUP number almost hides the original elements, and tries to create an atmosphere that offers something else, be it dreamy, ghostly, whatever - hard to put on words - both the central riff and Jagger's vocals try to reflect the lyrical content by their own means (or other way round). To my ears the results sound rather 'tricky' and the intended attempt to re-invent their sound, and get off of EXILE routines and musical realms, goes only half-way, and not maybe even there. Sounds like their musical imagination is not wide enough to wander more freely.
But still I think "gothic rock song" is an apt way to describe the results afterwards.
- Doxa
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 21:12 by Doxa.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 8, 2014 21:09
The delivery is voodoo Dr John with a european twist, which is interesting in itself. It might have worked better had there been a bit more of a 60's-70's gothic/prog rock filter and flavour in the music... That would really have tested the stones fans taste buds.
It's a cool track, maybe best experienced loud whilst dancing around in your underpants. Hopefully Mr D will allow you time to dress properly before placing his hand on your shoulder though.
Rock, danceable and kleermaker loves it, something is wrong here!
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 21:25 by His Majesty.
It's a cool track, maybe best experienced loud whilst dancing around in your underpants. Hopefully Mr D will allow you time to dress properly before placing his hand on your shoulder though.
Rock, danceable and kleermaker loves it, something is wrong here!
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 21:25 by His Majesty.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: January 8, 2014 21:42
Quote
His Majesty
The delivery is voodoo Dr John with a european twist, which is interesting in itself. It might have worked better had there been a bit more of a 60's-70's gothic/prog rock filter and flavour in the music... That would really have tested the stones fans taste buds.
It's a cool track, maybe best experienced loud whilst dancing around in your underpants. Hopefully Mr D will allow you time to dress properly before placing his hand on your shoulder though.
Rock, danceable and kleermaker loves it, something is wrong here!
As long as it ain't dance music it's fine by me.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 8, 2014 22:00
Quote
kleermaker
As long as it ain't dance music it's fine by me.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: January 8, 2014 23:03
I need to eloborate a bit why I am so pleased with Witness's "gothic rock" description.
My old 'analysis' - I guess it is to be found on Rene's track talks - was based on the idea that the song is a tactical but failed attempt to marry three different things together:
(1) A catchy riff - not any 'recent' chord based multi-note open tuning one but classical 'one note in time' a'la "The Last Time" or "Satisfaction". But turned out to be a rather lame one.
(2) Scary, threatening, provocative lyrics with which The Stones had shaked the world just a few years earlier. This time playing with 'death' instead of devil ("Sympathy"), doom & gloom ("Shelter"), personal chaos ("Flash"), revolution ("Fighting Man"), mass murderer ("Rambler"). Turned out to be rather childish and pretentious. Sounds like some children's fairytail.
(3) A hot dance groove. Well, at least it doen't make Kleermaker dance...
All in all, analysis based on reduction - to smash the thing into pieces - usually don't say much, and somehow loses the touch of the wholeness. That's why I find a description like 'gothic rock' naming the result much more fruitful one. It gives you a new idea into your mind, instead of just trying rethink the old boring and too obvious ones. Always a more fan of 'synthesis' than of 'analysis'. And of new ideas, even radical ones, that makes you rethink your own stance..
- Doxa
P.S Damn those emoticons... (only the last one was intented one)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 23:19 by Doxa.
My old 'analysis' - I guess it is to be found on Rene's track talks - was based on the idea that the song is a tactical but failed attempt to marry three different things together:
(1) A catchy riff - not any 'recent' chord based multi-note open tuning one but classical 'one note in time' a'la "The Last Time" or "Satisfaction". But turned out to be a rather lame one.
(2) Scary, threatening, provocative lyrics with which The Stones had shaked the world just a few years earlier. This time playing with 'death' instead of devil ("Sympathy"), doom & gloom ("Shelter"), personal chaos ("Flash"), revolution ("Fighting Man"), mass murderer ("Rambler"). Turned out to be rather childish and pretentious. Sounds like some children's fairytail.
(3) A hot dance groove. Well, at least it doen't make Kleermaker dance...
All in all, analysis based on reduction - to smash the thing into pieces - usually don't say much, and somehow loses the touch of the wholeness. That's why I find a description like 'gothic rock' naming the result much more fruitful one. It gives you a new idea into your mind, instead of just trying rethink the old boring and too obvious ones. Always a more fan of 'synthesis' than of 'analysis'. And of new ideas, even radical ones, that makes you rethink your own stance.
.- Doxa
P.S Damn those emoticons... (only the last one was intented one)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 23:19 by Doxa.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
GetYerAngie
()
Date: January 8, 2014 23:43
Most passages of EOMS are stronger than GHS, no doubt about that. But but weaknesses occur on EOMS. Piano-vignettes here and there, the stadium-rock/soul hollowness that emerges in Tumbling Dice. And neither do I think - in retrospect - that Dancing with mister D. is their strongest opener, but what I like about about GHS is the mood, the melancholy. And the courage - with I think is greater than Dylans - to explore the what is going on, when the top has been reached. What I really respect in their 70's output are the reports from that rarely reported from state of mind. Star Star is an example, Respectable, Some Girls and Tops. Sketches, I know, and cynical, but never the less interesting, and not as hypocritical as many other lyrics from acclaimed fellow rocstars.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 8, 2014 23:50
Quote
Doxa
... new ideas, even radical ones, that makes you rethink your own stance.
Most definitely!
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: January 9, 2014 02:56
Quote
Doxa
I need to eloborate a bit why ........................................
Everyone, of course, knows how great a writer you are, Doxa.
But in addition you have another asset. You are an excellent reader, too. (Without you, hardly anyone would have noticed my saying anything.) And your assets don't stop there: Apart from the mentionned, you are ever so ready and willing to put your earlier conclusions at trial. (In this case, I had not read what you had written before,)
All taken together, I really am impressed!
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: January 9, 2014 09:57
Quote
His MajestyQuote
kleermaker
This time the Stones were ahead of their time with Mr D...
Twas a bit old hat even within their own musical evolution. It's more an amalgamation of voodoo blues with a side serving of prog rock.
No way is it a proto-gothic song as it's coming at the end of gothic rock strand that appeared during psych era, there's no real link to 80's gothic music.
Even if you might have noticed it yourself, His Majesty, which I believe, the latter part of your post does not emerge that way. It is in case not kleermaker, but me that is to blame for characterizing "Dancing with Mr. D" as a proto-gothic song.
I did so, because I am well aware that the gothic rock scene might be said to belong to the '80s. Then the latter part of your post seemingly asserts that "Dancing with Mr. D" not only is too early to be part of the 80's gothic rock music, but also to late to be proto-gothic because "coming at the end of gothic rock strand that appeared during psych era".
Reading this, I search the Internet. I then find [en.wikipedia.org]
Here it can be read "According to both Pitchfork[2] and NME,[3] proto-goth bands are Joy Division,[2][3][4] Siouxsie and the Banshees,[2][3] Bauhaus[2][3] and The Cure.[2][3" Probably both you and I disagree with that. Otherwise one might read there: "Musicians who initially shaped the aesthetics and musical conventions of gothic rock include Marc Bolan,[9] The Velvet Underground,[10] The Doors,[10] David Bowie, Iggy Pop and the Sex Pistols.[10][11] ". Evidently "Dancing with Mr D" is not counted in. But it does not prevent that oneself can argue that it could. The point, however, the Wikipedia-article, even by using the proto prefix, employing it for the later bands, shows there is no established use of the term "proto-gothic" rock or date for its subjectmatter that should prevent me from using the term as I did.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 9, 2014 10:17
<It is in case not kleermaker, but me that is to blame for characterizing "Dancing with Mr. D" as a proto-gothic>
I think the reason HM is pulling kleerie's leg here is that kleerie was more than hesitant to call Mr D. "a rocker".
When you characterised the song as gothic rock, kleerie found a musical bag to put this song into - very convinient, although I doubt he would have put it there himself
Proto-goth, btw, has to be the bands from the late 60s, hence Mr. D missed that wave by several years.
I think the reason HM is pulling kleerie's leg here is that kleerie was more than hesitant to call Mr D. "a rocker".
When you characterised the song as gothic rock, kleerie found a musical bag to put this song into - very convinient, although I doubt he would have put it there himself
Proto-goth, btw, has to be the bands from the late 60s, hence Mr. D missed that wave by several years.
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