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Mid-tempo, like Dancing With Mr. D. But can we dance to them? I think we can...
Does DWMD on Brussels 1 sound like a pop song?
No it doesn't, but also not like a rocker. Like a dangerous song I would say.
"Rocker" is sometimes used as almost as vague a term as ballad is. And is a "rocker" the same thing as a "rock song"? For that matter, in my view a pop song is not necessarily a commercialized pop song.
I might suggest that the interesting distinction is something else than the question whether "Dancing with Mr. D" is a rock song or a pop song. Then I would venture to say that it is either a gothic rock song or a gothic pop song. However, "Dancing with Mr. D" is rather a feigned gothic song than a sincerely meant gothic song. Were "Dancing with Mr. D" to be the latter, it would somehow have been a gothic counterpoint to, dare I say, "Gimme Shelter". But that it isn't. It's instead perhaps an expression of the lethargic state of mind which might be said, more or less, to characterize GOATS HEAD SOUP. However, it has a certain gothic flavour and on its surface at least is a gothic song, but as asserted somewhat feigned in the studio version. Less feigned in some live versions, though. Probably, I would call it a gothic rock song rather than a gothic pop song. But not a "rocker". And I think that it is one of its kind.
The lines between the genres aren't always that sharp. To my feel MrD isn't a rocker, even if a rocker is indeed not per se a fast song. It's also not a standard pop song, even though I agree that pop music isn't commercial/hit material per se. Gimme Shelter isn't a rocker either in my view. That it has in common with Mr D, even if they are not of the same kind. Some songs are simply hors catégorie.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-07 21:14 by kleermaker.
As well as some EXILE songs being ABKCO Music... obvioulsy from the LIB and or SF sessions.
Rock music played and recorded by a rock band.
I don't consider the Stones as a rock band.
You have a phobia about the word because you associate it with Deep Purple etc, but it's what they were and are.
Rock is a wide open genre, but it's core is blues, rock 'n' roll with song writing and other genres mixed in.
Sure, but the stones will be in the rock section.
Where else would they go?
A gothig rock song - yes, that's what it is! The term surely is anachronistic, but that's the same thing as when people are tracing the first rock and roll song ever, etc. The song is on oddity if we try to categorize it by our usual concepts - and I wouldn't call it 'rocker' either (but 'rock song' yes) - so a really clever insight from your side to widen up our usual categories!
For me "Dancing With Mr. D" has always been the biggest singular reason why GOATS HEAD SOUP was a clear artistic downhill after EXILE (and rest of the Big Four). By being the opening song it pretty much gives the tone to the rest of the album, no matter how good singular songs there will pop up, and after losing the game with ever-important first shot, the hopes for making a masterpiece album are gone. (Like with "Sing This All Together" in regards to SATANIC MAJESTIES).
But that said, and taking the "gothic" nature of it now into account, makes me to rethink the song and what were they were actually thinking with it.
To me eyes the song is a failed attempt to start an album, once again, with a bit mysterious, dangerous genre-defying epic song. Like they did with excellent results with "Gimme Shelter" and "Sympathy For The Devil". I think especially the comparison to "Gimme Shelter" is an accurate one. Like "Shelter" the song is an oddity to anything they - or anyone - in the past have done, and they are aiming for new horizons, to enrich the whole content of 'rock music'. But whereas "Shelter" succeeds in it - it simply does that by being so awesome and convincing that it redifines what a great 'rock song' can be - "Mr. D" fails rather big time, and is fated to remain some kind of oddity in their catalogue.
But probably if they weren't The Rolling Stones - and whatever we expect from them and to sound like - the song would be easier to reach and grasp.
"A gothic rock song". That's a good one indeed. Next time I listen the song, I try to view it from that point of view...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 10:56 by Doxa.
Aha, the opposite descriptive musical categories are now "bluesy" vs. "doom and gloom". You live and you learn...
- Doxa
The indie goth you seem to have in mind is separate and different to gothic rock ala Fever Tree up above, King Crimson - Epitaph, In the Court, etc.
If I recall right, first time 'gothic rock' was used in describing The Doors by some journalist back then.
Doxa
I know. Still, the term was more in use when the second wave of goth rock came around.
We also already had terms like symfo-rock, prog-rock or fusion to put the songs you mentioned in. I don't think they often are put in that bag, although it certainly would be correct - or am I wrong?
But do you have 'Progg-rock' in Norway Dandy like we have in Sweden, music with political messages..that's Progg in Sweden...You know 'Hoola Bandoola Band' and 'Fläsket Brinner' and stuff...
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 7, 2014 12:55
Quote
kleermakerQuote
DandelionPowderman
Yep, slow like SMU
Yeah man, that's a very slow starter indeed!
Mid-tempo, like Dancing With Mr. D. But can we dance to them? I think we can...
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
drbryant
()
Date: January 7, 2014 16:05
Quote
kleermakerQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
kleermakerQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
kleermakerQuote
DandelionPowderman
Some Girls has rock, pop, blues, country, soul, disco/funk rock and new three songs with a punk-attitude. Their most versatile album since Exile.
Saying that only BOB is of GHS quality is just silly. I'd rather listen to the rockers on SG than those on GHS, which are mediocre at best. Star Star worked good live, though. Angie is the only song that would be good enough to be included on SG, imo. Maybe CDA as well.
Maybe it has and maybe it's versatile (though it does sound very 'the same' to me, because most of the stuff, whatever the style, is superficial fun stuff, the music as well as the lyrics), but it's music of a lower quality.
GHS is not about rockers, but about mood. You obviously didn't 'get' it.
I get the mood of GHS, totally, that's why I don't say it's a crap album. And it has some really great songs.
However, stuff like Hide Your Love, Winter, Star Star, Dancing With Mr. D and Silver Train just don't do it for me. I have heard better "versions" before, especially of the three rockers.
In the meantime, enjoy the profoundness and depth of the lyrics on DWMD, HYL, SS and the other poetic masterpieces on GHS
Well then you don't have an antenna for nostalgia and melancholy. Those atmospheres do define the album, which is unique for a Stones album.
HYL has the typical blues lyrics that go very well with the music. Mr D isn't a rocker, much too slow. I agree SS is the weakest song on the album. But if you can't appreciate Winter, well then we're on a totally different level of appreciating music. Nothing new though.
Now you're on thin ice, kleerie. You really don't know what I'm saying
Most of the archetypical Stones rockers are mid-tempo like DWMD, btw.
Dancing on thin ice, you mean.
Mr. D doesn't sound like a rocker to me, rather a pop song. Compare it to for instance SFM or JJF. Mr D is real slow man!
Does DWMD on Brussels 1 sound like a pop song?
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: January 7, 2014 16:07
Quote
drbryantQuote
kleermakerQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
kleermakerQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
kleermakerQuote
DandelionPowderman
Some Girls has rock, pop, blues, country, soul, disco/funk rock and new three songs with a punk-attitude. Their most versatile album since Exile.
Saying that only BOB is of GHS quality is just silly. I'd rather listen to the rockers on SG than those on GHS, which are mediocre at best. Star Star worked good live, though. Angie is the only song that would be good enough to be included on SG, imo. Maybe CDA as well.
Maybe it has and maybe it's versatile (though it does sound very 'the same' to me, because most of the stuff, whatever the style, is superficial fun stuff, the music as well as the lyrics), but it's music of a lower quality.
GHS is not about rockers, but about mood. You obviously didn't 'get' it.
I get the mood of GHS, totally, that's why I don't say it's a crap album. And it has some really great songs.
However, stuff like Hide Your Love, Winter, Star Star, Dancing With Mr. D and Silver Train just don't do it for me. I have heard better "versions" before, especially of the three rockers.
In the meantime, enjoy the profoundness and depth of the lyrics on DWMD, HYL, SS and the other poetic masterpieces on GHS
Well then you don't have an antenna for nostalgia and melancholy. Those atmospheres do define the album, which is unique for a Stones album.
HYL has the typical blues lyrics that go very well with the music. Mr D isn't a rocker, much too slow. I agree SS is the weakest song on the album. But if you can't appreciate Winter, well then we're on a totally different level of appreciating music. Nothing new though.
Now you're on thin ice, kleerie. You really don't know what I'm saying
Most of the archetypical Stones rockers are mid-tempo like DWMD, btw.
Dancing on thin ice, you mean.
Mr. D doesn't sound like a rocker to me, rather a pop song. Compare it to for instance SFM or JJF. Mr D is real slow man!
Does DWMD on Brussels 1 sound like a pop song?
No it doesn't, but also not like a rocker. Like a dangerous song I would say.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 7, 2014 16:24
Rockers don't have to be fast, kleerie. The Stones are the living proof of that
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: January 7, 2014 19:23
Quote
kleermakerQuote
drbryantQuote
kleermakerQuote
DandelionPowderman
Now you're on thin ice, kleerie. You really don't know what I'm saying
Most of the archetypical Stones rockers are mid-tempo like DWMD, btw.
Dancing on thin ice, you mean.
Mr. D doesn't sound like a rocker to me, rather a pop song. Compare it to for instance SFM or JJF. Mr D is real slow man!
Does DWMD on Brussels 1 sound like a pop song?
No it doesn't, but also not like a rocker. Like a dangerous song I would say.
"Rocker" is sometimes used as almost as vague a term as ballad is. And is a "rocker" the same thing as a "rock song"? For that matter, in my view a pop song is not necessarily a commercialized pop song.
I might suggest that the interesting distinction is something else than the question whether "Dancing with Mr. D" is a rock song or a pop song. Then I would venture to say that it is either a gothic rock song or a gothic pop song. However, "Dancing with Mr. D" is rather a feigned gothic song than a sincerely meant gothic song. Were "Dancing with Mr. D" to be the latter, it would somehow have been a gothic counterpoint to, dare I say, "Gimme Shelter". But that it isn't. It's instead perhaps an expression of the lethargic state of mind which might be said, more or less, to characterize GOATS HEAD SOUP. However, it has a certain gothic flavour and on its surface at least is a gothic song, but as asserted somewhat feigned in the studio version. Less feigned in some live versions, though. Probably, I would call it a gothic rock song rather than a gothic pop song. But not a "rocker". And I think that it is one of its kind.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: January 7, 2014 20:02
Quote
WitnessQuote
kleermakerQuote
drbryantQuote
kleermakerQuote
DandelionPowderman
Now you're on thin ice, kleerie. You really don't know what I'm saying
Most of the archetypical Stones rockers are mid-tempo like DWMD, btw.
Dancing on thin ice, you mean.
Mr. D doesn't sound like a rocker to me, rather a pop song. Compare it to for instance SFM or JJF. Mr D is real slow man!
Does DWMD on Brussels 1 sound like a pop song?
No it doesn't, but also not like a rocker. Like a dangerous song I would say.
"Rocker" is sometimes used as almost as vague a term as ballad is. And is a "rocker" the same thing as a "rock song"? For that matter, in my view a pop song is not necessarily a commercialized pop song.
I might suggest that the interesting distinction is something else than the question whether "Dancing with Mr. D" is a rock song or a pop song. Then I would venture to say that it is either a gothic rock song or a gothic pop song. However, "Dancing with Mr. D" is rather a feigned gothic song than a sincerely meant gothic song. Were "Dancing with Mr. D" to be the latter, it would somehow have been a gothic counterpoint to, dare I say, "Gimme Shelter". But that it isn't. It's instead perhaps an expression of the lethargic state of mind which might be said, more or less, to characterize GOATS HEAD SOUP. However, it has a certain gothic flavour and on its surface at least is a gothic song, but as asserted somewhat feigned in the studio version. Less feigned in some live versions, though. Probably, I would call it a gothic rock song rather than a gothic pop song. But not a "rocker". And I think that it is one of its kind.
The lines between the genres aren't always that sharp. To my feel MrD isn't a rocker, even if a rocker is indeed not per se a fast song. It's also not a standard pop song, even though I agree that pop music isn't commercial/hit material per se. Gimme Shelter isn't a rocker either in my view. That it has in common with Mr D, even if they are not of the same kind. Some songs are simply hors catégorie.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-07 21:14 by kleermaker.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: January 7, 2014 20:15
Well, I did not use the word rocker, at all, in my own approach. And I was not highlighting distinctions between pop songs and rock songs. I ended up saying perhaps on that score. However, I was more interested in other aspects.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-07 20:16 by Witness.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-07 20:16 by Witness.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: January 7, 2014 22:12
Quote
Thrylan
All down the line and Jivin Sister Fanny originate in 1969.
There is an easy way to dilineate the two. Per Sticky Fingers material that was in fairly finished form, will have an "ABKO" copyright...... due to the relationship with Allen Klein.....post 70' then goes to RSR.
Not perfect......but a quick, accurate way to check.
As well as some EXILE songs being ABKCO Music... obvioulsy from the LIB and or SF sessions.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 7, 2014 22:17
Quote
kleermaker
The lines between the genres aren't always that sharp. To my feel MrD isn't a rocker, even if a rocker is indeed not per se a fast song. It's also not a standard pop song, even though I agree that pop music isn't commercial/hit material per se. Gimme Shelter isn't a rocker either in my view. That it has in common with Mr D, even if they are not of the same kind. Some songs are simply hors catégorie.
Rock music played and recorded by a rock band.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: January 7, 2014 23:21
Quote
His MajestyQuote
kleermaker
The lines between the genres aren't always that sharp. To my feel MrD isn't a rocker, even if a rocker is indeed not per se a fast song. It's also not a standard pop song, even though I agree that pop music isn't commercial/hit material per se. Gimme Shelter isn't a rocker either in my view. That it has in common with Mr D, even if they are not of the same kind. Some songs are simply hors catégorie.
Rock music played and recorded by a rock band.
I don't consider the Stones as a rock band.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 7, 2014 23:54
Quote
kleermaker
I don't consider the Stones as a rock band.
You have a phobia about the word because you associate it with Deep Purple etc, but it's what they were and are.
Rock is a wide open genre, but it's core is blues, rock 'n' roll with song writing and other genres mixed in.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
NICOS
()
Date: January 8, 2014 00:51
I suggest................just enjoy the music 
__________________________
__________________________
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 8, 2014 01:05
Quote
NICOS
I suggest................just enjoy the music
Sure, but the stones will be in the rock section.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 8, 2014 01:41
Put them in the prog section, to make kleerie happy
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
CousinC
()
Date: January 8, 2014 03:00
Stones in Prog? No way . .
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
latebloomer
()
Date: January 8, 2014 03:16
Quote
His MajestyQuote
NICOS
I suggest................just enjoy the music
Sure, but the stones will be in the rock section.
Where else would they go?
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 8, 2014 09:33
Quote
CousinC
Stones in Prog? No way . .
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: January 8, 2014 09:38
Stones in Prog? Haven't they played there already?
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: January 8, 2014 10:43
Quote
Witness
"Rocker" is sometimes used as almost as vague a term as ballad is. And is a "rocker" the same thing as a "rock song"? For that matter, in my view a pop song is not necessarily a commercialized pop song.
I might suggest that the interesting distinction is something else than the question whether "Dancing with Mr. D" is a rock song or a pop song. Then I would venture to say that it is either a gothic rock song or a gothic pop song. However, "Dancing with Mr. D" is rather a feigned gothic song than a sincerely meant gothic song. Were "Dancing with Mr. D" to be the latter, it would somehow have been a gothic counterpoint to, dare I say, "Gimme Shelter". But that it isn't. It's instead perhaps an expression of the lethargic state of mind which might be said, more or less, to characterize GOATS HEAD SOUP. However, it has a certain gothic flavour and on its surface at least is a gothic song, but as asserted somewhat feigned in the studio version. Less feigned in some live versions, though. Probably, I would call it a gothic rock song rather than a gothic pop song. But not a "rocker". And I think that it is one of its kind.
A gothig rock song - yes, that's what it is! The term surely is anachronistic, but that's the same thing as when people are tracing the first rock and roll song ever, etc. The song is on oddity if we try to categorize it by our usual concepts - and I wouldn't call it 'rocker' either (but 'rock song' yes) - so a really clever insight from your side to widen up our usual categories!
For me "Dancing With Mr. D" has always been the biggest singular reason why GOATS HEAD SOUP was a clear artistic downhill after EXILE (and rest of the Big Four). By being the opening song it pretty much gives the tone to the rest of the album, no matter how good singular songs there will pop up, and after losing the game with ever-important first shot, the hopes for making a masterpiece album are gone. (Like with "Sing This All Together" in regards to SATANIC MAJESTIES).
But that said, and taking the "gothic" nature of it now into account, makes me to rethink the song and what were they were actually thinking with it.
To me eyes the song is a failed attempt to start an album, once again, with a bit mysterious, dangerous genre-defying epic song. Like they did with excellent results with "Gimme Shelter" and "Sympathy For The Devil". I think especially the comparison to "Gimme Shelter" is an accurate one. Like "Shelter" the song is an oddity to anything they - or anyone - in the past have done, and they are aiming for new horizons, to enrich the whole content of 'rock music'. But whereas "Shelter" succeeds in it - it simply does that by being so awesome and convincing that it redifines what a great 'rock song' can be - "Mr. D" fails rather big time, and is fated to remain some kind of oddity in their catalogue.
But probably if they weren't The Rolling Stones - and whatever we expect from them and to sound like - the song would be easier to reach and grasp.
"A gothic rock song". That's a good one indeed. Next time I listen the song, I try to view it from that point of view...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 10:56 by Doxa.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 8, 2014 10:57
Gothic rock with similar death dancing theme...
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 8, 2014 11:14
Some more good, gothic rock
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: January 8, 2014 11:21
Or from one band that I was interested in and did like, admittedly first after when they were disbanded (I saw one splinter group "Love & Rockets live once),
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 8, 2014 11:22
Dancing With Mr. D is dark, but bluesy musically. Goth is all doom and gloom, especially within the music.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: January 8, 2014 11:35
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Dancing With Mr. D is dark, but bluesy musically. Goth is all doom and gloom, especially within the music.
Aha, the opposite descriptive musical categories are now "bluesy" vs. "doom and gloom". You live and you learn...
- Doxa
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: January 8, 2014 11:43
I am not very familiar with the gothic rock scene,I must stress
However, when Joy Division (one favourite band of mine) is seen in a Wikipedia-article as a gothic band, I think I clearly diagree about that. Joy Division in my understanding was a band of depressive rock (and New Order of post-depressive rock). Bauhaus, on the other hand, I think was more of a gothic rock band. My impression is that a gothic rock band not necessarily had to be "doom and gloom" through and through, but might have some inbuilt ironic distance at the same time. Somehow "Dancing with Mr. D" is rather suiting as a precursor for that, in my view.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 11:45 by Witness.
However, when Joy Division (one favourite band of mine) is seen in a Wikipedia-article as a gothic band, I think I clearly diagree about that. Joy Division in my understanding was a band of depressive rock (and New Order of post-depressive rock). Bauhaus, on the other hand, I think was more of a gothic rock band. My impression is that a gothic rock band not necessarily had to be "doom and gloom" through and through, but might have some inbuilt ironic distance at the same time. Somehow "Dancing with Mr. D" is rather suiting as a precursor for that, in my view.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 11:45 by Witness.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 8, 2014 11:49
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Dancing With Mr. D is dark, but bluesy musically. Goth is all doom and gloom, especially within the music.
The indie goth you seem to have in mind is separate and different to gothic rock ala Fever Tree up above, King Crimson - Epitaph, In the Court, etc.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: January 8, 2014 11:56
Quote
His MajestyQuote
DandelionPowderman
Dancing With Mr. D is dark, but bluesy musically. Goth is all doom and gloom, especially within the music.
The indie goth you seem to have in mind is separate and different to gothic rock ala Fever Tree up above, King Crimson - Epitaph, In the Court, etc.
If I recall right, first time 'gothic rock' was used in describing The Doors by some journalist back then.
Doxa
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 8, 2014 11:59
Quote
His MajestyQuote
DandelionPowderman
Dancing With Mr. D is dark, but bluesy musically. Goth is all doom and gloom, especially within the music.
The indie goth you seem to have in mind is separate and different to gothic rock ala Fever Tree up above, King Crimson - Epitaph, In the Court, etc.
I know. Still, the term was more in use when the second wave of goth rock came around.
We also already had terms like symfo-rock, prog-rock or fusion to put the songs you mentioned in. I don't think they often are put in that bag, although it certainly would be correct - or am I wrong?
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: January 8, 2014 12:09
To me King Crimson never was a gothic band (I repeat, to me).
To me they were a prog-rock-band all right, at its time in my eyes then, the best there was. So far as I knew that scene, admittedly not too far. (Because Pink Floyd was something else, again to me.)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 12:10 by Witness.
To me they were a prog-rock-band all right, at its time in my eyes then, the best there was. So far as I knew that scene, admittedly not too far. (Because Pink Floyd was something else, again to me.)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-08 12:10 by Witness.
Re: Should the BIG 4 be the BIG 5
Posted by:
Come On
()
Date: January 8, 2014 12:11
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
His MajestyQuote
DandelionPowderman
Dancing With Mr. D is dark, but bluesy musically. Goth is all doom and gloom, especially within the music.
The indie goth you seem to have in mind is separate and different to gothic rock ala Fever Tree up above, King Crimson - Epitaph, In the Court, etc.
I know. Still, the term was more in use when the second wave of goth rock came around.
We also already had terms like symfo-rock, prog-rock or fusion to put the songs you mentioned in. I don't think they often are put in that bag, although it certainly would be correct - or am I wrong?
But do you have 'Progg-rock' in Norway Dandy like we have in Sweden, music with political messages..that's Progg in Sweden...You know 'Hoola Bandoola Band' and 'Fläsket Brinner' and stuff...
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