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DandelionPowderman
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Proto-goth, btw, has to be the bands from the late 60s, hence Mr. D missed that wave by several years.

Why not both late 6os and early 70s, would be my counter question. There is not yet a gothic rock scene proper.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 10:25 by Witness.

If I could weigh on the gothic rock discussion, which appears to have stemmed from the song Dancing With Mr D.

In my opinion, there are more gothic elements in some of their mid-60s recordings, like Little Red Rooster and Heart of Stone.

From the clip below, it seems that the producers of the TV show Shindig in 1965 had the same idea. See how the performance of Little Red Rooster is prefaced--with a graveyard scene complete with thunder and lightning effects, a tree branch artfully hanging down before the camera, which pans ahead to the door of a crypt as it creaks open to reveal bars of shadow among which stands a ghostly, zombified Jagger. Both the song and the television presentation combine for a piece of video rock noir.





Dancing With Mr D, on the other hand, strikes me as just an average mid-tempo druggie rock song with none of the spectral mystique of LRR. Heart of Stone, with its graveyard tremolo, also has that gothic vibe, sounding like a chilling sunset replete with autumn leaves, the heart in question a plaque hanging within the walls of an autumnal crypt.





But overall, the Stones with their R&B are steeped more in a shade of blue--deep blue at times for sure--but blue nonetheless. Despite getting the blues now and again, there is too much a will to party and enjoy themselves to convey the shadowy darkness that is a hallmark of the gothic prototype.

Now it is you, who at first make an extension to songs, where I for one don't find the gothic epithet suited, whereupon you go on to deny its relevance.

I have made a suggestion for one song only, where I found that it is not without an inbuilt more or less ironic distance at the same time, and tried to stress that point as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 10:50 by Witness.

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
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Proto-goth, btw, has to be the bands from the late 60s, hence Mr. D missed that wave by several years.

Why not both late 6os and early 70s, would be my counter question. There is not yet a gothic rock scene proper.

Because kleerie said that the Stones were early out with playing this. They weren't, as they by 1973 were more than half a decade off being "pioneers".

Sure, there is a "gothic" feeling within the lyrics and the atmosphere in Mr. D, but I really can't see the musical parallells.

If Mr. D is gothic, what is Can You Hear The Music, then?

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
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Proto-goth, btw, has to be the bands from the late 60s, hence Mr. D missed that wave by several years.

Why not both late 6os and early 70s, would be my counter question. There is not yet a gothic rock scene proper.

Because kleerie said that the Stones were early out with playing this. They weren't, as they by 1973 were more than half a decade off being "pioneers".

Sure, there is a "gothic" feeling within the lyrics and the atmosphere in Mr. D, but I really can't see the musical parallells.

If Mr. D is gothic, what is Can You Hear The Music, then?

kleermaker might have referred to the gothic rock scene.

As for "Can You Hear the Music", which I once saw as a (weaker) parallell to "Moonlight Mile", I don't see as having gothic elements. I have not any ready epithet to give it. The song has some suggestive, spellbinding and dreamlike qualities.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 11:21 by Witness.

Moonlight Mile is a.... ballad, plain and simple.

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
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Proto-goth, btw, has to be the bands from the late 60s, hence Mr. D missed that wave by several years.

Why not both late 6os and early 70s, would be my counter question. There is not yet a gothic rock scene proper.

Because kleerie said that the Stones were early out with playing this. They weren't, as they by 1973 were more than half a decade off being "pioneers".

Sure, there is a "gothic" feeling within the lyrics and the atmosphere in Mr. D, but I really can't see the musical parallells.

If Mr. D is gothic, what is Can You Hear The Music, then?

kleermaker might have referred to the gothic rock scene.

As for "Can You Hear the Music", which I once saw as a (weaker) parallell to "Moonlight Mile", I don't see as having gothic elements. I have not any ready epithet to give it. The song has some suggestive, spellbinding and dreamlike qualities.

I see it as Mr D's older brother. It has the dark and mysterious feel to it, something Mr. D only have to a degree. It also has dreamy and floating parts.

But it has indeed a dark feel, just as Mr. D only partly has, imo.

ROCKMAN

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stonehearted
Moonlight Mile is a.... ballad, plain and simple.

Albeit a dreamy one, with a few crescendos

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman

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Sure, there is a "gothic" feeling within the lyrics and the atmosphere in Mr. D, but I really can't see the musical parallells.

If Mr. D is gothic, what is Can You Hear The Music, then?

.........................................................

As for "Can You Hear the Music", which I once saw as a (weaker) parallell to "Moonlight Mile", I don't see as having gothic elements. I have not any ready epithet to give it. The song has some suggestive, spellbinding and dreamlike qualities.

I see it as Mr D's older brother. It has the dark and mysterious feel to it, something Mr. D only have to a degree. It also has dreamy and floating parts.

But it has indeed a dark feel, just as Mr. D only partly has, imo.

I see "Can You Hear the Music" as lighter (as contrasted with darkness) than "Dancing with Mr. D". On the other hand, there is in part an ironic distance in the latter, which is not present in the former. Of couse, all as my personal judgements.

After the edit, I hope I got the quotations right.
Latest edit: An "r" added.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 18:36 by Witness.

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness
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Sure, there is a "gothic" feeling within the lyrics and the atmosphere in Mr. D, but I really can't see the musical parallells.

If Mr. D is gothic, what is Can You Hear The Music, then?

.........................................................

As for "Can You Hear the Music", which I once saw as a (weaker) parallell to "Moonlight Mile", I don't see as having gothic elements. I have not any ready epithet to give it. The song has some suggestive, spellbinding and dreamlike qualities.

I see it as Mr D's older brother. It has the dark and mysterious feel to it, something Mr. D only have to a degree. It also has dreamy and floating parts.

But it has indeed a dark feel, just as Mr. D only partly has, imo.

I see "Can You Hear the Music" as lighter (as contrasted with darkness) than "Dancing with Mr. D". On the other hand, there is in part an ironic distance in the latter, which is not present in the fomer. Of couse, all as my personal judgements.[/quote]

"Looking at a 44 in West Virginia". Yep, all real and heartfelt

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
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Proto-goth, btw, has to be the bands from the late 60s, hence Mr. D missed that wave by several years.

Why not both late 6os and early 70s, would be my counter question. There is not yet a gothic rock scene proper.

There was not a gothic rock scene proper and there didn't need to be one because the use of gothic elements, implied or otherwise in the lyrics, music and fashion was a natural extension of the bigger movement towards using classical music, poetry etc etc in the music of that time.

The gothic themes all tie in with baroque pop, psych rock and folk, progressive rock and so on.

...

The 80's goth scene was quite a seperate and different take on gothic influences.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 13:57 by His Majesty.

Merely a continuance of stuff like Stray Cat Blues, Midnight Rambler or Ventilator Blues - only tamer and more one-dimensional, imo.

It is because there was no gothic scene that, among what heterogenous stuff that formerly existed from different bands, there were certain songs that were or could be said to be kinds of predecessors which can be named proto-gothic for those who find that instructive. And what can be contested among those who think not.

And in this case that description, that label, said something interesting for at least some listeners of the Stones themselves.

Had I contented myself by saying only "gothic", I would be arrested and told that there was no gothic scene at the time.

We might, of course, say that everything is either "rockers" or "ballads", and that this distinction is all that matters. Then all discussion could be about ranking of songs and albums into masterpieces and shite. And everything else can be done away with.

Edit: A misprint.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 14:29 by Witness.

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DandelionPowderman
Merely a continuance of stuff like Stray Cat Blues, Midnight Rambler or Ventilator Blues - only tamer and more one-dimensional, imo.

With that kind of argumentation, you could be met with the view from someone (and you are) that nothing interesting or creatively new has been made by this band since 1983, and some would say 1972! That they should call it a day!

I think Tattoo You is better than Some Girls and better than Beggars Banquet.

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Witness
It is because there was no gothic scene that, among what heterogenous stuff that formerly existed from different bands, there were certain songs that were or could be said to be kinds of predecessors which can be named proto-gothic for those who find that instructive. And what can be contested among those who think not.

And in this case that description, that label, said something interesting for at least some listeners of the Stones themselves.

Had I contented myself by saying only "gothic", I would be arrested and told that there was no gothic scene at the time.

We might, of course, say that everything is either "rockers" or "ballads", and that this distinction is all that matters. Then all discussion could be about ranking of songs and albums into masterpieces and shite. And everything else can be done away with.

Edit: A misprint.

Hmmm, I dunno, but Mr D with it's voodoo blues feel mixed with/gothic imagery is neither ahead of it's time nor a prototype for anything that followed in the goth scene of the 80's.

That it has gothic elements was a good observation by you.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 14:44 by His Majesty.

"Dancing with Mr. D" was before the gothic scene. And it had not to be copied to be a forerunner, added expression: not necessarily the first one. And it may give a description of the song in a Stones context that to some listeners, not all, is a little more inspiring than "rocker".

OK: Thank you!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 14:46 by Witness.

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Witness
"Dancing with Mr. D" was before the gothic scene. And it had not to be copied to be a forerunner,

It comes after an intentional use of gothic imagery in rock music and there isn't any real musical connection to the 80's goth scene.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 14:58 by His Majesty.

Not all preceding elements, more or less of their kind, are always absorbed and worked up in a new rock scene that arises. Only some predecessors are adopted as such.

Black and blue should be added to the big 4 or 5

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
Merely a continuance of stuff like Stray Cat Blues, Midnight Rambler or Ventilator Blues - only tamer and more one-dimensional, imo.

With that kind of argumentation, you could be met with the view from someone (and you are) that nothing interesting or creatively new has been made by this band since 1983, and some would say 1972! That they should call it a day!

Why? We are only talking about "gothic"-sounding songs. Do you find Mr. D more authentic or "better" than the other songs I mentioned? It is "One-dimensional" simply because there isn't very much going on after the beginning of the track.

There are way more interesting newer songs, but then again they aren't gothic

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Witness
"Dancing with Mr. D" was before the gothic scene. And it had not to be copied to be a forerunner, added expression: not necessarily the first one. And it may give a description of the song in a Stones context that to some listeners, not all, is a little more inspiring than "rocker".

OK: Thank you!

That's because there aren't that many gothic elements in the song musically. With musically I mean that the song is basically a blues groove. It is Mick and the lyrics that gives the feel you well-deservedly get credit for here. I mean, gothic rock might not be correct - more like a blues rocker dressed in gothic clothes, imo.

However, listen to the tremolo guitar in Going Home, as well as some of the instrumental parts of it, before dismissing it in this context.

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Witness
Not all preceding elements, more or less of their kind, are always absorbed and worked up in a new rock scene that arises. Only some predecessors are adopted as such.

Yes, it's only partly a forerunner and only with regards to time.

It's not a prototype, influence or a harbinger for the goth scene that emerged in 80's.

It's as much proto-death metal as it is proto-goth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 15:37 by His Majesty.

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strat72

Haha.... Your good for a laugh HM, I'll give you that.

Are you one of those numbskulls that can't appreciate music outside of blues rock idiom?

On the contrary HM, I love all sorts of music. Starting with 'The blues rock idiom' and ending with classical, while taking in reggae, country and everything else inbetween!

Your suggestion that Let it Bleed is a weird, incomplete and transitional album is laughable. It is in no way weird. (GHS is weird, and all the better for it) It is in no way incomplete. It is as complete as any great album can be. It also fits perfectly between the album it follows (Bb) and the album it procedes (SF) and thus, is in no way transitional!

You lump Beggars in with The Rolling Stone, Aftermath, Satanic, BTB and call them the big six. Beggars does not fit in with those albums. It fits in with the albums that follow it. Beggars marks the point where they went from being a great singles band, into a great albums band. Beggars is when the Stones truly found their sound and became 'The greatest rock n roll band in the world.' Thus it is BB that is the transitional album

What about Aftermath album? First to feature all Jagger-Richards songs, so I'd say they became a great albums band (as you put it) then.

After having a few go's at this myself, I've understood this much:
The transitional thing with LIB isn't merely musical - it's also that it, in a way, is the album between guitar players.

And not only guitar players, but the "third man" that could contribute something extra (although I think Keith does that just fine, by taking on an enormous role as the lead axe man on LI.

It lacks a "third voice", so to speak.

I don't necessarily agree, but that's another matter...

I think you guys are on the wrong track. I don't think DWMD has anything to do with goth. To me It's swampy blues-rock, like Born on the Bayou.

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DandelionPowderman
After having a few go's at this myself, I've understood this much:
The transitional thing with LIB isn't merely musical - it's also that it, in a way, is the album between guitar players.

And not only guitar players, but the "third man" that could contribute something extra (although I think Keith does that just fine, by taking on an enormous role as the lead axe man on LI.

It lacks a "third voice", so to speak.

I don't necessarily agree, but that's another matter...

That's it.

Like most branches of convo's in this thread the points being repeated within the posts has resulted in things being over stated.

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness
"Dancing with Mr. D" was before the gothic scene. And it had not to be copied to be a forerunner, added expression: not necessarily the first one. And it may give a description of the song in a Stones context that to some listeners, not all, is a little more inspiring than "rocker".

OK: Thank you!

That's because there aren't that many gothic elements in the song musically. With musically I mean that the song is basically a blues groove. It is Mick and the lyrics that gives the feel you well-deservedly get credit for here. I mean, gothic rock might not be correct - more like a blues rocker dressed in gothic clothes, imo.

However, listen to the tremolo guitar in Going Home, as well as some of the instrumental parts of it, before dismissing it in this context.

If there is one song at roughly the same time as "Goin' Home", and whose guitar, at the end of the song especially, would have been a better candidate, even if I do not not either see that one in this light, I would mention "Sad Day".

Apart from that, Stones songs are usually first of all Stones songs, then with more or less pronounced elements of, for instance, disco as "Miss You". And when you, disparagingly, say only Mick Jagger's voice, my answer is that his voice to me is one of their most formidable instruments.

By the way, in fact, I like "Dancing with Mr. D" more than some other songs on GOATS HEAD SOUP.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 16:08 by Witness.

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drbryant
I think you guys are on the wrong track. I don't think DWMD has anything to do with goth. To me It's swampy blues-rock, like Born on the Bayou.

Mostly.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 16:07 by His Majesty.