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Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: September 25, 2013 15:50

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DandelionPowderman
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LieB
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DandelionPowderman
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LieB
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DandelionPowderman
Are you guys saying that the first 6 Zep albums, the Beatles' White Album and some Michael Jackson records are all flawless/perfect/without fillers??

The most obscure songs on Led Zep's first six and without a doubt the Beatles last six albums are definitely on the same level as Parachute Woman and Monkey Man when it comes to popularity, critical acclaim and influence on other musicians.

No, they're not, when it comes to critical acclaim or influence on other musicians. Who wants to pick up a guitar and play along with Ob-la-di Ob-la-dah?

There is weak stuff already on LZ II and III, and the White Album is 50/50 with fillers, imo. A very uneven album.

Popularity is not something we discussed in this thread. Perfection was.

Well, "perfection" is a subjective opinion which depends on popularity. The White Album maybe a hodge-podge in a way, but all its songs are highly popular. Many fans (and there ARE many) would call it perfect in the same way as we go on and on about the perfection of Beggars Banquet. Personally I like Beggars Banquet much more, but I think the White Album is just as "perfect" to be honest. Same goes with Led Zeppelin III. But that's my opinion.

Of course it's subjective. My point is that White Album is so uneven, compared to Revolver, Robber Soul, Sgt. Pepper and Abbey Road, that it can't be compared to an album, hailed as one of the perfect albums by the Stones.

And, no, not EVERY song on the White Album is highly popular - some are very popular. You won't hear people debating whether Bungalow Bill, Ob-la-di or Rocky Raccoon are among the best ever Beatles-songs. If people do, however, I take it back. But I have never ever heard that smiling smiley

We discussed BB to be perfect in the sense of wholeness, as well as ALL the songs being superior to songs on most other Stones albums. The unique production of the album as well, of course.

...as the raging debate of whether Dear Doctor or Jigsaw puzzle is among the best ever Stones-songs continues.

Can't have it both ways Dandelion.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Date: September 25, 2013 16:01

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treaclefingers
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DandelionPowderman
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LieB
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DandelionPowderman
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LieB
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DandelionPowderman
Are you guys saying that the first 6 Zep albums, the Beatles' White Album and some Michael Jackson records are all flawless/perfect/without fillers??

The most obscure songs on Led Zep's first six and without a doubt the Beatles last six albums are definitely on the same level as Parachute Woman and Monkey Man when it comes to popularity, critical acclaim and influence on other musicians.

No, they're not, when it comes to critical acclaim or influence on other musicians. Who wants to pick up a guitar and play along with Ob-la-di Ob-la-dah?

There is weak stuff already on LZ II and III, and the White Album is 50/50 with fillers, imo. A very uneven album.

Popularity is not something we discussed in this thread. Perfection was.

Well, "perfection" is a subjective opinion which depends on popularity. The White Album maybe a hodge-podge in a way, but all its songs are highly popular. Many fans (and there ARE many) would call it perfect in the same way as we go on and on about the perfection of Beggars Banquet. Personally I like Beggars Banquet much more, but I think the White Album is just as "perfect" to be honest. Same goes with Led Zeppelin III. But that's my opinion.

Of course it's subjective. My point is that White Album is so uneven, compared to Revolver, Robber Soul, Sgt. Pepper and Abbey Road, that it can't be compared to an album, hailed as one of the perfect albums by the Stones.

And, no, not EVERY song on the White Album is highly popular - some are very popular. You won't hear people debating whether Bungalow Bill, Ob-la-di or Rocky Raccoon are among the best ever Beatles-songs. If people do, however, I take it back. But I have never ever heard that smiling smiley

We discussed BB to be perfect in the sense of wholeness, as well as ALL the songs being superior to songs on most other Stones albums. The unique production of the album as well, of course.

...as the raging debate of whether Dear Doctor or Jigsaw puzzle is among the best ever Stones-songs continues.

Can't have it both ways Dandelion.

He he, you got a point.

Strangely, I'm humming those songs quite frequently, especially Dear Doctor. Maybe I should give Bungalow Bill a few more listens, to actually remember it winking smiley

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: LieB ()
Date: September 25, 2013 16:45

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DandelionPowderman
And, no, not EVERY song on the White Album is highly popular - some are very popular. You won't hear people debating whether Bungalow Bill, Ob-la-di or Rocky Raccoon are among the best ever Beatles-songs. If people do, however, I take it back. But I have never ever heard that smiling smiley

We discussed BB to be perfect in the sense of wholeness, as well as ALL the songs being superior to songs on most other Stones albums. The unique production of the album as well, of course.

I guess you're right.

In the end I would say Sticky Fingers and Exile are more perfect in that sense.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: September 25, 2013 16:48

He he, you got a point.

Strangely, I'm humming those songs quite frequently, especially Dear Doctor. Maybe I should give Bungalow Bill a few more listens, to actually remember it


And just to clarify...I find the White Album highly overrated.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Date: September 25, 2013 16:55

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LieB
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DandelionPowderman
And, no, not EVERY song on the White Album is highly popular - some are very popular. You won't hear people debating whether Bungalow Bill, Ob-la-di or Rocky Raccoon are among the best ever Beatles-songs. If people do, however, I take it back. But I have never ever heard that smiling smiley

We discussed BB to be perfect in the sense of wholeness, as well as ALL the songs being superior to songs on most other Stones albums. The unique production of the album as well, of course.

I guess you're right.

In the end I would say Sticky Fingers and Exile are more perfect in that sense.

Then again, I'm a Stones fan winking smiley

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: BJPortugal ()
Date: September 25, 2013 17:40

Lyrically is, clearly, the best record.

Sympathy, SFM and NE are top level. In LIB, we have Gimmie Shelter, in SF, Moonlight Mile, and in EOMS, honestly, i cant see any top level lyrics.

Musically, along with SF. LIB is ok, but it lacks in some songs. EOMS is the most weak of the top four, IMO.
Of course that is a matter of taste, but whats songs in EOMS we can think "wow, they nailed it"? Ok, maybe Let it loose or Tumbling Dice? There any many good songs. Yet, there any a few that i hear 2/3 times, and i will skip forever. But there no "f*cking great song". I'm sorta think like Mick Jagger when he say:

"It's a bit overrated, to be honest. Compared to Let it Bleed and Beggars Banquet, which I think are more of a piece, I don't see it's as thematic as the other two. I'm not saying it's not good. It doesn't contain as many outstanding songs as the previous (sic) two records. I think the playing's quite good. It's got a raw quality, but I don't think all around it's as good."
- Mick Jagger, 1995

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: September 25, 2013 17:54

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BJPortugal

whats songs in EOMS we can think "wow, they nailed it"? Ok, maybe Let it loose or Tumbling Dice?

You're kidding right?

Rocks Off, Shine A Light, Sweet Virginia, Loving Cup, All Down The Line, Tumbling Dice, Let It Loose, Rip This Joint, Casino Boogie...

Have you listened to all the songs?

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Date: September 25, 2013 17:58

Casino Boogie sure is the most interesting one lyrically grinning smiley

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: howled ()
Date: September 25, 2013 18:04

Yeah, Mick knows.

Exile is not that great IMO and it's just put together on the run so to speak (from the taxman) and Keith was going one way and Mick was going another way.

Tumbling Dice is the standout and even though I'm a Keith fan, Happy is not a great song IMO and it's more of a pleasant ok song and the rest of Exile is a lot of filler and was probably put together from bits they had hanging around from the late 60s that didn't make the previous albums track list.

Singing about flowers and child like imagery and being spaced out can only go on for so long before everyone says, that's enough of that and Beggars and the White album are the dropping of psychedelia and the return of USA based music ie country/blues/rock/gospel/folk.

JJF would have been on Beggars worldwide just like Brown Sugar was on Sticky Fingers but that was how they did things at that point.

Let It Bleed continues the USA music thing and so does Sticky Fingers and Exile.

Taylor adds to the USA based music because he is after all a Blues guitarist.

Beggar's was a lot of Keith and his guitar tunings and it was planned that way and so was Let It Bleed and Sticky Fingers but Exile was not really planned in the same way and it was made up on the run from stored bits and pieces that they decided to offload.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-25 18:10 by howled.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: September 25, 2013 18:14

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DandelionPowderman
Casino Boogie sure is the most interesting one lyrically grinning smiley

Hey, free association is a legitimate if cheap form of lyric writing.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Date: September 25, 2013 18:19

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treaclefingers
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DandelionPowderman
Casino Boogie sure is the most interesting one lyrically grinning smiley

Hey, free association is a legitimate if cheap form of lyric writing.

Imagine the costs of all those paper clips...

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: September 25, 2013 18:25

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DandelionPowderman
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treaclefingers
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DandelionPowderman
Casino Boogie sure is the most interesting one lyrically grinning smiley

Hey, free association is a legitimate if cheap form of lyric writing.

Imagine the costs of all those paper clips...

Little known fact, that's the reason why they went with a double album, to be able to sell at a higher price and thus recoup said additional costs.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Date: September 25, 2013 18:30

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treaclefingers
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DandelionPowderman
Quote
treaclefingers
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DandelionPowderman
Casino Boogie sure is the most interesting one lyrically grinning smiley

Hey, free association is a legitimate if cheap form of lyric writing.

Imagine the costs of all those paper clips...

Little known fact, that's the reason why they went with a double album, to be able to sell at a higher price and thus recoup said additional costs.

Must be the reason...

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: BJPortugal ()
Date: September 25, 2013 19:19

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treaclefingers
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BJPortugal

whats songs in EOMS we can think "wow, they nailed it"? Ok, maybe Let it loose or Tumbling Dice?

You're kidding right?

Rocks Off, Shine A Light, Sweet Virginia, Loving Cup, All Down The Line, Tumbling Dice, Let It Loose, Rip This Joint, Casino Boogie...

Have you listened to all the songs?[/quote


Of course >grinning smiley<

There are very good songs on EOMS, as i said before. Yet, for me, there was no one that can impress very much. In some songs, there are too much "trumpets and horns" grinning smiley I love EOMS, but, once more i quote Jagger's words
"It's a wonderful record, but I wouldn't consider it the finest of the Rolling Stones' work. I think that Beggars Banquet and Let It Bleed were better records. They're more compressed.[...]Anway, I think Exile lacked a bit of definition. I'm being supercritical, I know, but the record lacks a little focus."- Mick Jagger, 1987

Anyway, after all, its just a matter of opinion. smileys with beer

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: September 25, 2013 20:12

The Beatles is a @#$%& ace album you bastards!

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: September 25, 2013 21:12

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DandelionPowderman
Are you guys saying that the first 6 Zep albums, the Beatles' White Album and some Michael Jackson records are all flawless/perfect/without fillers??

I am saying there are many albums and runs of albums as good if not better than the so called big 4.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Date: September 25, 2013 21:27

I agree, but the WA is too uneven for me.

LZ1 and Houses of the holy are on par with BB.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: September 25, 2013 21:33

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DandelionPowderman
I agree, but the WA is too uneven for me.

LZ1 and Houses of the holy are on par with BB.

The Beatles is ace!

Houses of the Holy is not, it's crap, as is Physical Graffiti.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: pepganzo ()
Date: September 25, 2013 21:56

Let it bleed is the perfect album (yes, similiar to BB, but the perfect)

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Date: September 25, 2013 22:11

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His Majesty
Quote
DandelionPowderman
I agree, but the WA is too uneven for me.

LZ1 and Houses of the holy are on par with BB.

The Beatles is ace!

Houses of the Holy is not, it's crap, as is Physical Graffiti.

The Rain Song as well?

Of course the Beatles is ace!

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: Edward Twining ()
Date: September 25, 2013 22:50

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DandelionPowderman
Of course it's subjective. My point is that White Album is so uneven, compared to Revolver, Robber Soul, Sgt. Pepper and Abbey Road, that it can't be compared to an album, hailed as one of the perfect albums by the Stones.

And, no, not EVERY song on the White Album is highly popular - some are very popular. You won't hear people debating whether Bungalow Bill, Ob-la-di or Rocky Raccoon are among the best ever Beatles-songs. If people do, however, I take it back. But I have never ever heard that smiling smiley

We discussed BB to be perfect in the sense of wholeness, as well as ALL the songs being superior to songs on most other Stones albums. The unique production of the album as well, of course.

Dandelion, i don't necessarily think it's profitable to compare the Stones releases next to the Beatles. However, what i will say is BEGGARS BANQUET is perhaps the first Stones release that can be regarded as being a true rival to the Beatles release of the same year - The White Album. In previous years the Beatles had had the monopoly when it came to superior album releases, and often, and especially with THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST, it appears the Stones were very much trying to emulate whatever thery tried to do (SGT PEPPER, especially). It seems another coincidence to think that BEGGARS BANQUET, within its original greeting card cover, was also a 'White Album'. However, inside the sleeve, what the Stones offered us was a little more demonstative of where their true musical heart lay. Perhaps it is superior to The White Album - it certainly is for me, and it has a far more integrated feel. There are some great songs on 'The White Album' but i don't believe as a finished piece, it stand up quite as well as their many other albums. BEGGARS BANQUET, by contrast shows the Stones, working very much as an integrated whole............ then we get to 69 and we have LET IT BE/LET IT BLEED, although the Beatles didn't actually release their album until 1970, although of course the majority of it was recorded before the Stones album (of almost the same name). Maybe the title was designed to be a reply to the Beatles?

The Stones, in retrospect, were reaching their peak just prior to the Beatles splitting, and that's certainly true if you consider the album to be of primary importance. However, it seems hard to deny the Beatles huge influence on the Stones back in the sixties.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-25 22:54 by Edward Twining.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Date: September 25, 2013 22:54

Wasn't the wall the original BB cover?

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: Edward Twining ()
Date: September 25, 2013 22:57

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DandelionPowderman
Wasn't the wall the original BB cover?

Yes, it was the intended cover, but it wasn't the cover that was originally released. The original cover was plain white, in the design of a greeting card.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: September 25, 2013 23:31

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DandelionPowderman


The Rain Song as well?

No that's great, as is No Quarter, but that's just two songs.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Date: September 26, 2013 00:40

Come on! There are a few other great ones on there smiling smiley

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: September 26, 2013 01:19

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Come on! There are a few other great ones on there smiling smiley

Shit, yeah, Over the Hills.

Hmm, ok, it's half ace half crap. Bit like Let It Bleed. thumbs up

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: rob51 ()
Date: September 26, 2013 04:54

It's funny. Brian Jones was supposed to be the blues purist in the band during his short stint but played least on a more back to the blues album like B.B. than on any other he'd ever recorded with the band. One would think that the turn back to his favorite type of music would have been just what he'd needed at the time but apperently not.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: muffie ()
Date: September 26, 2013 08:00

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pepganzo
Let it bleed is the perfect album (yes, similiar to BB, but the perfect)

I too am of this opinion, as is the Rolling Stone magazine editors, that Let It Bleed > Beggars Banquet. LIB has a greater spread of light and shade (Gimme Shelter-LIV, Midnight-YCAGWYW). The live reworks of some of tracks in 72/73 elevating them to further greatness again.

Though I can see how BB might be considered a more cohesive piece of work. SFM, SFTD, No Expectations, Stray Cat Blues and Factory Girl being standouts. I skip Jigsaw Puzzle and have reservations about Salt Of The Earth, both which to my ear lack authenticity. Can't say I skip any part of LIB as even the weaker tracks (Monkey Man, Country Honk) are still awesome.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Posted by: howled ()
Date: September 26, 2013 08:49

Quote
rob51
It's funny. Brian Jones was supposed to be the blues purist in the band during his short stint but played least on a more back to the blues album like B.B. than on any other he'd ever recorded with the band. One would think that the turn back to his favorite type of music would have been just what he'd needed at the time but apperently not.

He seemed to lose interest.

Nothing new in that because some people do lose interest in whatever.

From what I've stumbled over, Brian played Clarinet and then lost interest in it and started playing Guitar and then lost interest in that.

When Brian separated from the Stones, John Mayall said Brian was trying to get a mediterranean blues like thing going and this fits in with one of Brian's last interviews where he talks about wanting to do world music.

[www.dailymotion.com]

When he would show up at a session—let's say he had just bought a sitar that day, he'd feel like playing it, so he'd look in his calendar to see if the Stones were in. Now he may have missed the previous four sessions. We'd be doing let's say, a blues thing. He'd walk in with a sitar, which was totally irrelevant to what we were doing, and want to play it. I used to try to accommodate him. I would isolate him, put him in a booth and not record him onto any track that we really needed. And the others, particularly Mick and Keith, would often say to me, 'Just tell him to piss off and get the hell out of here.

Re: 'Beggars Banquet' - the most perfect Stones album.
Date: September 26, 2013 09:50

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His Majesty
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Come on! There are a few other great ones on there smiling smiley

Shit, yeah, Over the Hills.

Hmm, ok, it's half ace half crap. Bit like Let It Bleed. thumbs up

Ha ha, you got your coffee at last! grinning smiley

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