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Witness
Very well. On the other hand. I don't think those freak elements, in that case, vanished during the following albums.

There is still some left on tracks like Midnight Rambler, Moonlight Mile, I Just Wanna See His Face and Can You Hear The Music. They didn't let it all go over night.

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness
Very well. On the other hand. I don't think those freak elements, in that case, vanished during the following albums.

There is still some left on tracks like Midnight Rambler, Moonlight Mile, I Just Wanna See His Face and Can You Hear The Music. They didn't let it all go over night.

Yes, all right, The point of view that I voiced, was, however, addressed to the former speaker, as in a simplified manner I was expressing somewhat parallel views with his more developed perspective and understanding. But where I am not certain if he, with his wellknown inclinations in this subject matter, thinks likewise on exactly this point.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-02 14:12 by Witness.

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness
Very well. On the other hand. I don't think those freak elements, in that case, vanished during the following albums.

There is still some left on tracks like Midnight Rambler, Moonlight Mile, I Just Wanna See His Face and Can You Hear The Music. They didn't let it all go over night.

Yes, all right, The point of view that I voiced, was, however, addressed to the former speaker, as in a simplified manner I was expressing somewhat parallel views with his more developed perspective and understanding. But where I am not certain if he, with his wellknown inclinations in this subject matter, thinks likewise on exactly this point.

What you're saying is that you wonder if His Majesty agrees?

Yes.

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness
Very well. On the other hand. I don't think those freak elements, in that case, vanished during the following albums.

There is still some left on tracks like Midnight Rambler, Moonlight Mile, I Just Wanna See His Face and Can You Hear The Music. They didn't let it all go over night.

Indeed. The freak just got more thinly spread and used less, which is a pity because when done with focus and conviction ala 2000 Light Years From Home, 2000 Man, Child of the Moon etc, their take on that kind of thing is quite unique and special. Through their freakier music they really knew how to capture and convey the wonder, warmth and edge of tripping.

Moonlight Mile is a wonderful showcase for how psych or freak vibes can and could have further been developed within stones music without it sounding old hat or pastiche. I wish they had done it more, a lot more!

MM is a mature synthesis of all they had learnt about song writing, blues, folk music with an lsd infused sheen over it.

That's a yes.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-03 00:49 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty
Moonlight Mile is a wonderful showcase for how psych or freak vibes can and could have further been developed within stones music without it sounding old hat or pastiche. I wish they had done it more, a lot more!

This!

><

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness
Very well. On the other hand. I don't think those freak elements, in that case, vanished during the following albums.

There is still some left on tracks like Midnight Rambler, Moonlight Mile, I Just Wanna See His Face and Can You Hear The Music. They didn't let it all go over night.

Indeed. The freak just got more thinly spread and used less, which is a pity because when done with focus and conviction ala 2000 Light Years From Home, 2000 Man, Child of the Moon etc, their take on that kind of thing is quite unique and special. Through their freakier music they really knew how to capture and convey the wonder, warmth and edge of tripping.

Moonlight Mile is a wonderful showcase for how psych or freak vibes can and could have further been developed within stones music without it sounding old hat or pastiche. I wish they had done it more, a lot more!

MM is a mature synthesis of all they had learnt about song writing, blues, folk music with an lsd infused sheen over it.

That's a yes.

Ha ha, brilliant

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His Majesty
The reality of course is that in 1968 neither The Beatles or The Rolling Stones ditched the drug influenced psychedelic mind set or sonic palette completely. Or better to say, experimentation with song writing, instrumentation and recording techniques continued.

Both The Beatles and Beggars Banquet have freak elements in them. Things are more considered and restrained compared to the year before and the freak elements are also some what grounded by what surrounds them in other more straight songs.

The freak flag is still being waved.

Yeah, there was some Psychedelic hangover, but basically it was over and it was onto the next trend where a band could get back to basics and still survive due to the bigger Marshall amps and Guitar heroes belting out the Blues having increasing success.

If the Stones were still pursuing things like 2,000 Light Years From Home in 1969/1970 then they would have been lumped as an old Psychedelic type band.

Hendrix was starting to look a bit stupid with his Psychedelic image towards the end IMO and probably would have ditched it had he gone on.

JJF has the most unpsychedelic riff that a song could have and the verse is totally unpsychedelic and it's the chorus that contains Psychedelic bits that are very similar to some Byrds type stuff with the higher Guitar parts.

That's the thing to pick up about JJF, in that it's a transitional song from flower power to blues and the verse and the chorus are 2 different contexts and the lyrics also.

The verse is a Blues struggle and the chorus is Happy and tinged with Psychedelic like happy lyrics (with tongue in cheek) and guitar stuff.

After all of the flower stuff it's back to the Blues, but there is a bit of an overhang.

"It's about having a hard time and getting out. Just a metaphor for getting out of all the acid things - Mick Jagger"

There were some good things done in the flower period (Paint It Black etc) but it was basically over and weirder instruments were being dropped and when Jimmy Miller says that Brian was turning up with a Sitar and it wasn't suitable for the song, then someone can get an idea of how much Brian was stuck in the weird instrument thing and not interested much in basic Guitar and he was still this way at the end judging from his last interview and what John Mayall said about Mediterranean Blues (Blues with weird instruments) which I would suspect as turning out as a commercial flop by 1969/1970.







Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-03 11:45 by howled.

Brian was the one who criticized Satanic and he was the one who wanted to go back to basics. In early 1968 Jagger promised Jones something, songs and/or input, to try to keep him in the band, sane and make him focus on something else than Anita. Keep him calm perhaps.
When the sessions began in 1968 Brian realized Jagger/Richards ran the show and Anita would be present at times. So he gradually lost interest, felt sorry and continued his downfall. And then came the second bust. If Brian brought a sitar to a blues session it probably says more about Keith dominating with his (fantastic) guitar.

I believe Brian Jones probably did whatever he could to stay alive and make it through the day by 1968. And gave up in 1969. Despite his faults he seems like a very sensitive person who couldn't handle what happened to him in 1967. Interesting given his very important role in Rock history 1962-1966/1967 and sadly in 1968/1969 as the first self-pitying heartbroken outlaw casualty in 1968/1969. Always paving the way.

"JJF has the most unpsychedelic riff that a song could have"

Nonsense.


They would have been seen as out of date had they continued with full on psych in 1967 clothing, but the freak element in music world stayed on for years after and in very creative ways.

The stones 1969 blues is different to their 1964 blues, the 1971 weirdness is different to 1967 weirdness. Moonlight Mile etc shows there was still validity in the more weirder sounds, vibes and song wiriting approaches.

Keith was found with lsd in his pocket years later, this in itself shows that the weird party in their, or atleast Keith's personal life was far from over.

Tis just a pity that they didn't allow it to come out in their music.

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His Majesty
"JJF has the most unpsychedelic riff that a song could have"

Nonsense.


They would have been seen as out of date had they continued with full on psych in 1967 clothing, but the freak element in music world stayed on for years after and in very creative ways.

The stones 1969 blues is different to their 1964 blues, the 1971 weirdness is different to 1967 weirdness. Moonlight Mile etc shows there was still validity in the more weirder sounds, vibes and song wiriting approaches.

Keith was found with lsd in his pocket years later, this in itself shows that the weird party in their, or atleast Keith's personal life was far from over.

Tis just a pity that they didn't allow it to come out in their music.

I think I get your continental drift

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His Majesty
"JJF has the most unpsychedelic riff that a song could have"

Nonsense.


They would have been seen as out of date had they continued with full on psych in 1967 clothing, but the freak element in music world stayed on for years after and in very creative ways.

The stones 1969 blues is different to their 1964 blues, the 1971 weirdness is different to 1967 weirdness. Moonlight Mile etc shows there was still validity in the more weirder sounds, vibes and song wiriting approaches.

Keith was found with lsd in his pocket years later, this in itself shows that the weird party in their, or atleast Keith's personal life was far from over.

Tis just a pity that they didn't allow it to come out in their music.

I did my own "Psychedelic Stones" comp a while ago.
The post 1968 tracks included are:

Moonlight Mile
Can You Hear The Music
Heaven
Continental Drift

Not many, but great!

It's more of a dub, but I would have added Feel On Baby to the list as well, rootsman

Passages of Moon Is Up should qualify as well

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DandelionPowderman
It's more of a dub, but I would have added Feel On Baby to the list as well, rootsman

Passages of Moon Is Up should qualify as well

OK, they´re in...

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rootsman

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DandelionPowderman
It's more of a dub, but I would have added Feel On Baby to the list as well, rootsman

Passages of Moon Is Up should qualify as well

OK, they´re in...

Well if Feel On Baby gets a pass then surely we can make an argument for Out Of Control? Laugh, I Nearly Died anyone?

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treaclefingers

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rootsman

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DandelionPowderman
It's more of a dub, but I would have added Feel On Baby to the list as well, rootsman

Passages of Moon Is Up should qualify as well

OK, they´re in...

Well if Feel On Baby gets a pass then surely we can make an argument for Out Of Control? Laugh, I Nearly Died anyone?

What's freaky in there? On FOB we have the "piiiiiioooing"-mini synth banging, at least...

It was very adequate that His Majesty did not reserve those 'freak elements' to a certain period of the Stones, you know which. That was what I wondered about in an earlier post.

Apart from that consideration, the word 'psychedelic' I have understood something specific about, not saying that it is easy to define or employ, but all the same. But 'freak elements' refer to something that I find somewhat even more difficult to grasp the meaning by. Maybe a wider region of music around the more restricted term "psychedelic". To some extent one might state, note that I am not sure, that THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST is not a 'psychedelic' album as a whole, some songs on it maybe, but the album as a whole possibly more an experimental album of this, so far, undefined 'freak' character. The song "Child of the Moon might have more of psychedelia about it than the whole of SATANIC.

Well, I wonder. And might feel the need to go back on what I have more or less asserted here.

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Redhotcarpet
Brian was the one who criticized Satanic and he was the one who wanted to go back to basics. In early 1968 Jagger promised Jones something, songs and/or input, to try to keep him in the band, sane and make him focus on something else than Anita. Keep him calm perhaps.
When the sessions began in 1968 Brian realized Jagger/Richards ran the show and Anita would be present at times. So he gradually lost interest, felt sorry and continued his downfall. And then came the second bust. If Brian brought a sitar to a blues session it probably says more about Keith dominating with his (fantastic) guitar.

I believe Brian Jones probably did whatever he could to stay alive and make it through the day by 1968. And gave up in 1969. Despite his faults he seems like a very sensitive person who couldn't handle what happened to him in 1967. Interesting given his very important role in Rock history 1962-1966/1967 and sadly in 1968/1969 as the first self-pitying heartbroken outlaw casualty in 1968/1969. Always paving the way.

I'm just talking about Brian's musical thing and not his personal life which often seems to get mixed in somehow.

Brian seemed to want to do different music to the Stones, so that was that.

Trying to do world music with a commercial pop/rock song orientated band like the Stones is not going to work.

As Mick said, Brian should have been a music teacher.

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His Majesty
"JJF has the most unpsychedelic riff that a song could have"

Nonsense.


They would have been seen as out of date had they continued with full on psych in 1967 clothing, but the freak element in music world stayed on for years after and in very creative ways.

The stones 1969 blues is different to their 1964 blues, the 1971 weirdness is different to 1967 weirdness. Moonlight Mile etc shows there was still validity in the more weirder sounds, vibes and song wiriting approaches.

Keith was found with lsd in his pocket years later, this in itself shows that the weird party in their, or atleast Keith's personal life was far from over.

Tis just a pity that they didn't allow it to come out in their music.

What does a earthy Blues riff have to do with psychedelica?

A psychedelic song can have a blues riff but it's done in a psychedelic context.

The JJF riff is just a direct blues riff with no psychedelic context but there is some psychedelic context in the chorus.

The JJF riff is an aggressive Blues riff spanning 2 chords and with a strong direct blues pentatonic vocal over the top of it, if that's not old style blues with a rock edge then I'll eat my hat.

I've posted quotes from Mick and Keith saying that JJF/Beggars is leaving the psychedelic thing.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-03 18:03 by howled.

"Psychedelia" seems to have changed its meaning completely. Back in the day, the only way a song could have a "blues riff . . done in a psychedelic context" is if someone played a blues riff while on acid. I think the time has come to admit I have no idea what it means anymore. Especially concepts like "some psychedelic context in the chorus."

The notes you play can have psychedelic effect when played or orchestrated a certain way.

That is clearly the case with JJF, imo.

As a late case and and even of psychedelia, I would like to suggest "Rain Fall Down" from A BIGGER BANG. A kind of "soul psychedelia".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-03 17:52 by Witness.

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DandelionPowderman
The notes you play can have psychedelic effect when played or orchestrated a certain way.

You mean they can make you high?!

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Aquamarine

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DandelionPowderman
The notes you play can have psychedelic effect when played or orchestrated a certain way.

You mean they can make you high?!

If that's your definition of what psychedelic is - well, yes

Then again, for others, there is also a musical side to this

That's what I'm asking--what is it? Because in the 60s, that WAS what my definition was--so how does it apply to music? Help an ignorant soul!

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howled

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His Majesty
"JJF has the most unpsychedelic riff that a song could have"

Nonsense.


They would have been seen as out of date had they continued with full on psych in 1967 clothing, but the freak element in music world stayed on for years after and in very creative ways.

The stones 1969 blues is different to their 1964 blues, the 1971 weirdness is different to 1967 weirdness. Moonlight Mile etc shows there was still validity in the more weirder sounds, vibes and song wiriting approaches.

Keith was found with lsd in his pocket years later, this in itself shows that the weird party in their, or atleast Keith's personal life was far from over.

Tis just a pity that they didn't allow it to come out in their music.

I've read some BS on this board but to say that the JJF BLUES riff is not an unpsychedelic riff takes the cake.

What does a earthy Blues riff have to do with psychedelica?

A psychedelic song can have a blues riff but it's done in a psychedelic context.

The JJF riff is just a direct blues riff with no psychedelic context but there is some psychedelic context in the chorus.

The JJF riff is an aggressive Blues riff spanning 2 chords and with a strong direct blues pentatonic vocal over the top of it, if that's not old style blues with a rock edge then I'll eat my hat.

I've posted quotes from Mick and Keith saying that JJF/Beggars is leaving the psychedelic thing.

The various videos they recorded for it say more than anything I post. Those videos are a visual manifestation of the freaky otherness that is within the music.

It is not just a blues riff with a pentatonic vocal on top.

Happy eatings.

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Aquamarine
"Psychedelia" seems to have changed its meaning completely. Back in the day, the only way a song could have a "blues riff . . done in a psychedelic context" is if someone played a blues riff while on acid. I think the time has come to admit I have no idea what it means anymore. Especially concepts like "some psychedelic context in the chorus."

There are loads of psychedelic things that use blues like things.

Purple Haze etc etc.

The "psychedelic context in the chorus of JJF"?

It's not blatant but it's there.

Keith's high guitar parts are pretty and psychedelic in a Byrds like way, Mick is singing it's Alright Now cause it's a Gas and he's happy.

Flower Power is basically happy.

Contrast the chorus with the verse, "I was born in a crossfire hurricane" over an earthy blues riff.

Very different imagery combining earthy blues with happiness in a slight psychedelic pop like way.

The verse and chorus are 2 different contexts woven in together.

Just like Black and White, it's the contrast of the verse/chorus and the associated music parts.

When the Stones play JJF live, they mostly drop the context of the recorded chorus and Mick just grunts out I'ts alright now etc and Keith just hits the chords and it's more like the blues riff context, which is one of the reasons that I don't really like the Stones JJF live versions.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-03 19:00 by howled.

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howled

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Redhotcarpet
Brian was the one who criticized Satanic and he was the one who wanted to go back to basics. In early 1968 Jagger promised Jones something, songs and/or input, to try to keep him in the band, sane and make him focus on something else than Anita. Keep him calm perhaps.
When the sessions began in 1968 Brian realized Jagger/Richards ran the show and Anita would be present at times. So he gradually lost interest, felt sorry and continued his downfall. And then came the second bust. If Brian brought a sitar to a blues session it probably says more about Keith dominating with his (fantastic) guitar.

I believe Brian Jones probably did whatever he could to stay alive and make it through the day by 1968. And gave up in 1969. Despite his faults he seems like a very sensitive person who couldn't handle what happened to him in 1967. Interesting given his very important role in Rock history 1962-1966/1967 and sadly in 1968/1969 as the first self-pitying heartbroken outlaw casualty in 1968/1969. Always paving the way.

I'm just talking about Brian's musical thing and not his personal life which often seems to get mixed in somehow.

Brian seemed to want to do different music to the Stones, so that was that.

Trying to do world music with a commercial pop/rock song orientated band like the Stones is not going to work.

As Mick said, Brian should have been a music teacher.

I think youre taking comments by Mick to literally. He's poking him. I get your point and Mick's point to some degree but Brian was not a music teacher when he created and later shaped the bands image and/or music. But yes he sometimes seemed to take things to seriously. My point is that the idea of Brian not wanting to play rockn roll or being a pop star is BS. His personal life and situation probably meant everything every day meaning if he finally got the balls to show up in the studio he had to numb himself and not try to compete with Keith on the guitar. Hence the sitar. I get the feeling he was a guy who would have done anything to find a new place within the band, that's why it's impossible to say what he wanted to do in the studio.

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Aquamarine
That's what I'm asking--what is it? Because in the 60s, that WAS what my definition was--so how does it apply to music? Help an ignorant soul!

Forget psychedelia and flower power as it brings too much 1967 baggage with it and think more along the lines of weird, freaky edge etc. Music can be freaky without it being psychedelia or flower power in the cliche sense.

Their Satanic Majesties Request is the LSD experience in full multi-coloured coat. Parts of Beggars Banquet has elements from the lsd experience placed in a more earthy context. Additional ingredients rather than a main one.

Hendrix's Voodoo Chile (slight return) for example, is very bluesy rock based, but there's an otherness to it, it's not just straight blues rock riff or anything like that. This goes for various tracks on Beggars Banquet.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-03 18:17 by His Majesty.

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howled

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Aquamarine
"Psychedelia" seems to have changed its meaning completely. Back in the day, the only way a song could have a "blues riff . . done in a psychedelic context" is if someone played a blues riff while on acid. I think the time has come to admit I have no idea what it means anymore. Especially concepts like "some psychedelic context in the chorus."

There are loads of them.

Purple Haze etc etc.

The "psychedelic context in the chorus of JJF".

It's not blatant but it's there.

Keith's high guitar parts are pretty and very psychedelic in a Byrds like way, Mick is singing it's Alright Now cause it's a Gas and he's happy.

Flower Power is basically happy.

Contrast the chorus with the verse, I was born in a crossfire hurricane over an earthy blues riff.

Very different imagery combining gutbucket blues with happiness in a slight psychedelic pop like way.

The verse and chorus are 2 different contexts woven in together.

Just like Black and White, it's the contrast of the verse/chorus.

Seems a bit vague, as a musical definition. All I'm getting is the happiness thing--there must be more to it than that, plus whiter-shade-of-pale-style trippy lyrics, surely?