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IMO there is a HUGE distinctness to his voice ,let's say since SAL .
I've been listening "No Spare Parts" again & again and it seems he can hardly go on "lower sounds "anymore ,yes he seems to overdoing it .
I don't understand it,though.
Isn't it right that when people get older ,their voice gets "lower" ?
Plus the song is much more repetitive on this version .
Love the guitars though .
And the lyrics as well .
In better words than me, yes !
HMN
if we're gonna do that, can we go for baroque and go back to 1723 when vivaldi was in his prime, before he started parodying himself?
Lol.
This Stones spokespwoman has no idea how obsessed we are....because no one will believe that statement.
I agree. Boring song and i don't like new vocals.
I think you raise a great point and that is the self-consciousness that entered the Stones music around the time of IORR and slowly evolved to where it is now on latter day releases like ABB and the EOMS bonus tracks, as well as No Spare Parts. A lot of thinking as well as over enunciating, though to a lesser degree on No Spare Parts single.
That mindset even goes to how Jagger approaches these extra CD's, as if each are their own Tattoo You. He overthinks the concept of bonus tracks on these re-releases then his perfectionist tendencies get the best of him making Jagger create almost new tracks from these odds and sods lying about in the vaults.
But in the process destroying much of the ragged charm that made them "unreleased treasures" by trying to turn them into something they're not. It's interesting to see him re-visit history and then try to turn it into current day. It did work for Tattoo You, partially because the gap in years between release in songs was much narrower. However, the results, at best, were mixed on the EOMS bonus material and it seems the bonus disc of SG might end up being more than the same.
His voice is still a powerful instrument but not as powerful as in 1978. 2011 Jagger sounds fine on NSP but if he uses that voice for songs like "I Can't Help It" or "Claudine" the results will not be as favorable. Remarkable voice even now but painting the voice of a 68 year old man into a scene of thirtysomethings is an exercise in absurdity, that in many ways, however unintentional, disrespects both the fans and the band's legacy.
But, I'm still glad they're doing these bonus discs however if he continues doing so much new vocal work, and the re-issues continue over the next 3-5 years the results will be increasingly unsatisfying. No matter how talented and how much Mick "still got it" the voice of a 70 year old is no match for one a quarter century or more his junior. Sometimes it's like Mick is trying to compete vocally with himself, that is somewhat odd not to mention futile because 21st century Mick's voice is no match for his younger self's voice. Yet, it's almost like he thinks-that aside from the obvious age-factor and it's effect on his vocal power and range-he's a better "singer" today-in the traditional sense. Almost trying to prove he still has it, when that isn't really necessary at all.
I'm not saying release these songs as is or to forget them all together just examining that the way he approaches these re-issues creates some interesting contradictions and paradoxes.
On JLo's new single "Harder" Mick has shown that (if he want) he still has a powerfull voice.
The reason why he no longer uses this type of voice since Wandering Spirit is a mystery.
uh...i just like it
And he surprised the hell out of me on Plundered My Soul. So he still does have it, but.......i guess he saves it for special, once in 20 years, occasions.
Jagger's new voice on 'No Spare Parts' is effective on the whole although towards the end i can feel the overaccentuation becoming a little more irritating, especially on that 'baby' lyric, and after. I think 'No Spare Parts' needed a little more focus for release from that of the original bootleg version, although vocally it is fairly obvious Jagger, even when he's just dabbling, had a much more impressive voice back in the day. The new version gives the song a little more focus, which was needed, yet something else is irretrievably lost. I just wish we had Jagger singing it in a more committed sense back in 1978. However, you are right, these days Jagger does tend to force his vocal too much, almost as though he's on a quest to prove he still has it, and his interpretational skills seem somehow lost. The original more casual, and natural vocal suited the song much better, only i feel it needed to feel a little more structured. However, he's a little luckier with 'No Spare Parts' ultimately, because his new vocal suits the song more that his efforts on the 'Exile On Main Street' extras, although even here, i think it will only be a matter of time, when we get much more familiar with this new vocal, that his voice once again will start to grate. He seems to have lost the thickness within his voice almost completely since 78, and it does tend to sound too thin and too strained these days, and maybe too low too.
Very nicely put the key issue here: that of Mick's approach. Full of, indeed, "interesting contradictions and paradoxes". There is that crucial and distinctive feature in Jagger that denies the historicality and nostalgy in the sense of "I am past my prime, I admit". That seems to be one thing Jagger never seems to admit, or as long as he makes music in one way or other. I think that is part of his personality: that makes him click, pushes him forward, motivates him. That's his artistic drive: "I can do that!". No even to "I can do still" because even admitting that would show a bit of mortality. There is no lesser gear in his engine. The paradox is that to make a historical project like Deluxe album properly, one should neet to have a smaller gear, and treat the past with a care and respect but Jagger can't. You do it as you make your next hit single to or you don't do it at all.
From the base we know by now, Jagger's method in Deluxe projects is exactly the method of TATTOO YOU. I think the truth is he has no choice if he is going to be interest in projects like these. That's the way he works. In a way I appreciate his approach and artistic drive - that's the one that has kept the band so vital, current and alive through all these years, but on the other hand, I can understand why it creates in these deluxe projects such anachronisms that are open to a justified criticism.
So what I have by now tried to do is to forget the "historical accuracy" or "authenticity" of these bonus tracks. I think we should - this is my advice - treat them as musical entities of their own, and view them just in terms of their own. They are exactly not "new stuff" like A BIGGER BANG but not really archives stuff (like we have in the bootlegs) either. Something quite approximate to TATTOO YOU stuff I guess. But most likely it will be only kind of new released music we will ever to get from The Rolling Stones. The sooner one get to used to that idea, the easier it will be to follow the band from now on.
The fact that they release a single based on archive material that never made the actual album speaks already volumes of the nature of the project. They want it to be played in the radio - as with "Plundered My Soul". It is not just a nice extra to sell some copies but there is more involved. They want the stuff to be liked and played, be as perfect and functional as their proper releases. The 'proto-TATTOO YOU stuff is surrounded with more authentic stuff - like "Plundered" or "Following The River" with alternate takes of "Loving Cup" or "Soul Survivor", etc. - but I think the substance is the 'new' stuff that gets its justification released through a media like these (Deluxe version).
I think one day - after seen maybe three of four Deluxe albums - we will have an interesting "BEST OF BONUS ALBUMS" collection, including "Plundered", "River", "No pare Parts", etc. and we will view it - rightly - as the best Stones album since TATTOO YOU!
The big issue is can Jagger ever be motivated to work 'new' Rolling Stones music outside the archive stuff again. At the moment I am inclined to think that the answer is negative. I think - like with TATTOO YOU project - the situation is ideal for Mick. The whole thing is just in his hands and he doesn't need to rely - or work with - the others (Keith) at all. The others have alraedy done their significant contributions to the tracks. Like Keith said in 1981, asked why he wasn't involved in finalizing TATTOO YOU, that he didn't need to because his contribution was already done by then (in the original sessions). What Jagger now needs from Keith to base a potential Stones track is already there on the vaults! How handy for him! No confrontations! It sounds like this method works for Keith's working ethics nowadays, too... And we can also understand why Keith is the one for "historical authenticity"... more authentic (unfinished, bootleg-like): more Keith, less Mick...
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-22 11:20 by Doxa.
I don't think either that there is any motivation for historical redescription - that Jagger somehow tries to manipulate how we think of the past, what was recorded and when, etc. That is only a by-product in the process (and which I think has only a significance to rather limited group of historically minded hardcore fans.) No, I think the only thing he matters is how the officially released songs sound like, and he tries to make them as perfect as he can. Some imperfect jokes - like Keith's guide-line vocals of "Soul Survivor" - can be included, but that can't be the substance for the whole project/album. I don't think Jagger gives a shit if the songs is made for SOME GIRLS or EMOTIONAL RESCUE if it is good (finished) enough to be released. That sort of historical accuracy sounds probably too nerd-like for him (can he even disinguish or remember those sessions in his mind now?)
But if there is something odd and paradoxial is that I think about the only people who are actually interested in these "bonus tracks" are the hardcore fans who - more or less - are familiar with their origins already. So you can't fool but only confuse them. This thread is an example of the former!
- Doxa
Oh dear. Where's skipstone when we need him?
Exactly, to begin with, and fundamentally, it is a question of liking or disliking. You can not fool yourself... You hear what you hear, you make the judgment with your ears, and that's it (of course, then one can start analyzing why one happens to like or not it, but that's another story).
But then there is the context of the listening experience in the very large sense of the term. What you are used to, what are your expectations, etc. All these things can vary, and change the listening experience. Let's say that we haven't ever heard the bootleg versions of "No Spare Parts". It will come out of blue like "Plundered My Soul" did. I will not say that people who now critizise it from the base of listening the bootleg version for decades, would like (instead of disliking) it in that case, but I would claim that they would approach it differently. My guess is that they actually would like it a bit more in that case.
For example, the critique with Jagger's 'thin, nasal' current voice is very much to do in comparing that to the 'original' version. In this case I would say it is a nasty fact that we have such a version in the first place. Good that "Plundered" has not anything of the sort to 'save' the current listening experience
... It could be that they even with a purpose used that kind of songs in EXILE which hadn't 'counter-examples' in the past. Perhaps that was the idea behind of not using "too familiar bootleg stuff" as they at the time claimed...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-22 13:43 by Doxa.
For the first time in 12 years since reading this board I disagree with Mathijs. Perhaps because I hadn't heard the original outake and I am coming to this song with fresh ears, i love it. It has been stuck in my head for 2 days.
In the vast ocean of crap that is the music industry these days i am glad of a tiny drop of shimmering magic this track captures. I am also glad My favorite band is still around.
Hi Doxa, it's been quite a while
You're right about it, but easier to say than to do.I don't know, I hope not, but I'm scared, how many of the forthcomin' tracks will be overdubbed by Mick, but I'm wonderin' if sometimes one should not leave these tracks, the way they were.
I mean we all get the bootleg versions, my point here is to say , if they can't do better , why not release them as they are with the best sound ever. Once again just my thoughts I will get this super-deluxe set anyway and probably but only time will tell, that I will be used to them in some years.
HMN
I'm not sure that's quite true, Doxa. 'Plundered My Soul' also had quite a lot of criticism with regard to Mick's vocal too, on this forum, despite there being no earlier vocal version for which to judge it next to. 'Plundered My Soul' is great despite Jagger's vocal, and not because of it, almost, pretty much because it had that early seventies vibe musically, which one could relate to (and especially with regard to 'Tumbling Dice') in common with the Stones best work from that period. Personally, if anything Jagger's new vocal actually works much better this time round on 'No Spare Parts', where his more recent vocal coincidentally luckily for Jagger, actually takes on a campy caricature with relation to country music, not unlike his earlier efforts from the seventies to a degree because of the context in which the song belongs. Yes, there's still an element of overaccentuation, but for me i find it can be more easily excused, except for perhaps the final third of the song. That's perhaps why it works better than his attempts at a rock vocal on 'Plundered My Soul', because the less serious musical context actually suits his voice better. I agree with big4 though. Given a song with a different musical vibe from this period may spell disaster for Jagger, especially within the context of listening to the original 'Some Girls' tracks alongside it. You can perhaps compare these new tracks to the way 'Tattoo You' was assembled to a degree, but the passage of time, between the demos and the finished product, with regards to Mick's vocal cords makes all the difference in my opinion.
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Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Richard from Canada
()
Date: October 21, 2011 20:16
Not too bad - but IMHO it didn't make the final Some Girls album song-list because it just wasn't good enough. Nice to hear it though.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Justin
()
Date: October 21, 2011 20:23
I wish they'd make the original untouched versions of "No Spare Parts" and the other outtakes available as a download or something just so we can have those in their original state...in perfect sound.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
SwayStones
()
Date: October 21, 2011 20:28
Quote
DragonSky
There's a distinctness to his current voice over the 1978 voice - back then he was a bit more lazy sounding, had a way of dragging the words out more without so much pronunciation of things; now he is very sharp about that, almost to the point of overdoing it to be so precise.
IMO there is a HUGE distinctness to his voice ,let's say since SAL .
I've been listening "No Spare Parts" again & again and it seems he can hardly go on "lower sounds "anymore ,yes he seems to overdoing it .
I don't understand it,though.
Isn't it right that when people get older ,their voice gets "lower" ?
Plus the song is much more repetitive on this version .
Love the guitars though .
And the lyrics as well .
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Muddyw
()
Date: October 21, 2011 20:59
Well, whatever one might think of the vocal parts by Jagger, I think he's done a decent job, considering his more nasal sounding parts a la Following The River or some songs on Superheavy. At least he didn't lose that country feel kinda voice.
I like it a lot, this song No Spare Parts. It didn't disappoint me at all.
I like it a lot, this song No Spare Parts. It didn't disappoint me at all.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Honestman
()
Date: October 21, 2011 21:50
I've been waitin' for an official release of all these Paris Outtakes since years...
So I should be glad with'em but in this case, for "No Spare Parts" I' m a bit dissapointed. I was so used to the bootleg version that finally isn't it too late now to listen to the real (fake vocals) one ???
I mean if "No Spare Parts" has been released 5 or 6 years later after its release , I for sure should have not the same feeling. We're in 2011 and Sir Mick JAGGER has this new voice.
I don't like the way he sing it,and mainly, he miss the thing. In the bootleg version, there was a bit of lazyness, of fun and that was what I like in it. In this 2011 version, the way he sing is far too serious. Just my thoughts
Hope we'll get some good surprise with the rest anyway.
HMN
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-21 21:51 by Honestman.
So I should be glad with'em but in this case, for "No Spare Parts" I' m a bit dissapointed. I was so used to the bootleg version that finally isn't it too late now to listen to the real (fake vocals) one ???
I mean if "No Spare Parts" has been released 5 or 6 years later after its release , I for sure should have not the same feeling. We're in 2011 and Sir Mick JAGGER has this new voice.
I don't like the way he sing it,and mainly, he miss the thing. In the bootleg version, there was a bit of lazyness, of fun and that was what I like in it. In this 2011 version, the way he sing is far too serious. Just my thoughts
Hope we'll get some good surprise with the rest anyway.
HMN
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-21 21:51 by Honestman.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Rip This
()
Date: October 21, 2011 21:55
...I think what your really saying is that in 1978 Mick would have released it very tongue in cheek more like a parody....sort of like the original whereas now he automatically censors himself....I think he's even admitted that he censors himself now....wouldn't it be nice to turn back that clock....for everybody....
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Honestman
()
Date: October 21, 2011 21:59
Quote
Rip This
...I think what your really saying is that in 1978 Mick would have released it very tongue in cheek more like a parody....sort of like the original whereas now he automatically censors himself....I think he's even admitted that he censors himself now....wouldn't it be nice to turn back that clock....for everybody....
In better words than me, yes !
HMN
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
StonesTod
()
Date: October 21, 2011 22:03
Quote
Rip This
...I think what your really saying is that in 1978 Mick would have released it very tongue in cheek more like a parody....sort of like the original whereas now he automatically censors himself....I think he's even admitted that he censors himself now....wouldn't it be nice to turn back that clock....for everybody....
if we're gonna do that, can we go for baroque and go back to 1723 when vivaldi was in his prime, before he started parodying himself?
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
stupidguy2
()
Date: October 22, 2011 00:13
Quote
StonesTod
i think what confuses me is whether they er-erased the original vocal before they re-recorded a new one. or something.
Lol.
This Stones spokespwoman has no idea how obsessed we are....because no one will believe that statement.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
KRiffhard
()
Date: October 22, 2011 00:22
Quote
Honestman
I've been waitin' for an official release of all these Paris Outtakes since years...
So I should be glad with'em but in this case, for "No Spare Parts" I' m a bit dissapointed. I was so used to the bootleg version that finally isn't it too late now to listen to the real (fake vocals) one ???
I mean if "No Spare Parts" has been released 5 or 6 years later after its release , I for sure should have not the same feeling. We're in 2011 and Sir Mick JAGGER has this new voice.
I don't like the way he sing it,and mainly, he miss the thing. In the bootleg version, there was a bit of lazyness, of fun and that was what I like in it. In this 2011 version, the way he sing is far too serious. Just my thoughts
Hope we'll get some good surprise with the rest anyway.
I agree. Boring song and i don't like new vocals.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
big4
()
Date: October 22, 2011 00:28
Quote
Rip This
...I think what your really saying is that in 1978 Mick would have released it very tongue in cheek more like a parody....sort of like the original whereas now he automatically censors himself....I think he's even admitted that he censors himself now....wouldn't it be nice to turn back that clock....for everybody....
I think you raise a great point and that is the self-consciousness that entered the Stones music around the time of IORR and slowly evolved to where it is now on latter day releases like ABB and the EOMS bonus tracks, as well as No Spare Parts. A lot of thinking as well as over enunciating, though to a lesser degree on No Spare Parts single.
That mindset even goes to how Jagger approaches these extra CD's, as if each are their own Tattoo You. He overthinks the concept of bonus tracks on these re-releases then his perfectionist tendencies get the best of him making Jagger create almost new tracks from these odds and sods lying about in the vaults.
But in the process destroying much of the ragged charm that made them "unreleased treasures" by trying to turn them into something they're not. It's interesting to see him re-visit history and then try to turn it into current day. It did work for Tattoo You, partially because the gap in years between release in songs was much narrower. However, the results, at best, were mixed on the EOMS bonus material and it seems the bonus disc of SG might end up being more than the same.
His voice is still a powerful instrument but not as powerful as in 1978. 2011 Jagger sounds fine on NSP but if he uses that voice for songs like "I Can't Help It" or "Claudine" the results will not be as favorable. Remarkable voice even now but painting the voice of a 68 year old man into a scene of thirtysomethings is an exercise in absurdity, that in many ways, however unintentional, disrespects both the fans and the band's legacy.
But, I'm still glad they're doing these bonus discs however if he continues doing so much new vocal work, and the re-issues continue over the next 3-5 years the results will be increasingly unsatisfying. No matter how talented and how much Mick "still got it" the voice of a 70 year old is no match for one a quarter century or more his junior. Sometimes it's like Mick is trying to compete vocally with himself, that is somewhat odd not to mention futile because 21st century Mick's voice is no match for his younger self's voice. Yet, it's almost like he thinks-that aside from the obvious age-factor and it's effect on his vocal power and range-he's a better "singer" today-in the traditional sense. Almost trying to prove he still has it, when that isn't really necessary at all.
I'm not saying release these songs as is or to forget them all together just examining that the way he approaches these re-issues creates some interesting contradictions and paradoxes.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
KRiffhard
()
Date: October 22, 2011 00:57
Quote
big4Quote
Rip This
...I think what your really saying is that in 1978 Mick would have released it very tongue in cheek more like a parody....sort of like the original whereas now he automatically censors himself....I think he's even admitted that he censors himself now....wouldn't it be nice to turn back that clock....for everybody....
I think you raise a great point and that is the self-consciousness that entered the Stones music around the time of IORR and slowly evolved to where it is now on latter day releases like ABB and the EOMS bonus tracks, as well as No Spare Parts. A lot of thinking as well as over enunciating, though to a lesser degree on No Spare Parts single.
That mindset even goes to how Jagger approaches these extra CD's, as if each are their own Tattoo You. He overthinks the concept of bonus tracks on these re-releases then his perfectionist tendencies get the best of him making Jagger create almost new tracks from these odds and sods lying about in the vaults.
But in the process destroying much of the ragged charm that made them "unreleased treasures" by trying to turn them into something they're not. It's interesting to see him re-visit history and then try to turn it into current day. It did work for Tattoo You, partially because the gap in years between release in songs was much narrower. However, the results, at best, were mixed on the EOMS bonus material and it seems the bonus disc of SG might end up being more than the same.
His voice is still a powerful instrument but not as powerful as in 1978. 2011 Jagger sounds fine on NSP but if he uses that voice for songs like "I Can't Help It" or "Claudine" the results will not be as favorable. Remarkable voice even now but painting the voice of a 68 year old man into a scene of thirtysomethings is an exercise in absurdity, that in many ways, however unintentional, disrespects both the fans and the band's legacy.
But, I'm still glad they're doing these bonus discs however if he continues doing so much new vocal work, and the re-issues continue over the next 3-5 years the results will be increasingly unsatisfying. No matter how talented and how much Mick "still got it" the voice of a 70 year old is no match for one a quarter century or more his junior. Sometimes it's like Mick is trying to compete vocally with himself, that is somewhat odd not to mention futile because 21st century Mick's voice is no match for his younger self's voice. Yet, it's almost like he thinks-that aside from the obvious age-factor and it's effect on his vocal power and range-he's a better "singer" today-in the traditional sense. Almost trying to prove he still has it, when that isn't really necessary at all.
I'm not saying release these songs as is or to forget them all together just examining that the way he approaches these re-issues creates some interesting contradictions and paradoxes.
On JLo's new single "Harder" Mick has shown that (if he want) he still has a powerfull voice.
The reason why he no longer uses this type of voice since Wandering Spirit is a mystery.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Lil' Brian
()
Date: October 22, 2011 01:02
Thanks for posting. Gorgeous!
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: October 22, 2011 01:10
Quote
big4Quote
Rip This
...I think what your really saying is that in 1978 Mick would have released it very tongue in cheek more like a parody....sort of like the original whereas now he automatically censors himself....I think he's even admitted that he censors himself now....wouldn't it be nice to turn back that clock....for everybody....
I think you raise a great point and that is the self-consciousness that entered the Stones music around the time of IORR and slowly evolved to where it is now on latter day releases like ABB and the EOMS bonus tracks, as well as No Spare Parts. A lot of thinking as well as over enunciating, though to a lesser degree on No Spare Parts single.
That mindset even goes to how Jagger approaches these extra CD's, as if each are their own Tattoo You. He overthinks the concept of bonus tracks on these re-releases then his perfectionist tendencies get the best of him making Jagger create almost new tracks from these odds and sods lying about in the vaults.
But in the process destroying much of the ragged charm that made them "unreleased treasures" by trying to turn them into something they're not. It's interesting to see him re-visit history and then try to turn it into current day. It did work for Tattoo You, partially because the gap in years between release in songs was much narrower. However, the results, at best, were mixed on the EOMS bonus material and it seems the bonus disc of SG might end up being more than the same.
His voice is still a powerful instrument but not as powerful as in 1978. 2011 Jagger sounds fine on NSP but if he uses that voice for songs like "I Can't Help It" or "Claudine" the results will not be as favorable. Remarkable voice even now but painting the voice of a 68 year old man into a scene of thirtysomethings is an exercise in absurdity, that in many ways, however unintentional, disrespects both the fans and the band's legacy.
But, I'm still glad they're doing these bonus discs however if he continues doing so much new vocal work, and the re-issues continue over the next 3-5 years the results will be increasingly unsatisfying. No matter how talented and how much Mick "still got it" the voice of a 70 year old is no match for one a quarter century or more his junior. Sometimes it's like Mick is trying to compete vocally with himself, that is somewhat odd not to mention futile because 21st century Mick's voice is no match for his younger self's voice. Yet, it's almost like he thinks-that aside from the obvious age-factor and it's effect on his vocal power and range-he's a better "singer" today-in the traditional sense. Almost trying to prove he still has it, when that isn't really necessary at all.
I'm not saying release these songs as is or to forget them all together just examining that the way he approaches these re-issues creates some interesting contradictions and paradoxes.
uh...i just like it
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
stupidguy2
()
Date: October 22, 2011 01:43
Quote
KRiffhardQuote
big4Quote
Rip This
...I think what your really saying is that in 1978 Mick would have released it very tongue in cheek more like a parody....sort of like the original whereas now he automatically censors himself....I think he's even admitted that he censors himself now....wouldn't it be nice to turn back that clock....for everybody....
I think you raise a great point and that is the self-consciousness that entered the Stones music around the time of IORR and slowly evolved to where it is now on latter day releases like ABB and the EOMS bonus tracks, as well as No Spare Parts. A lot of thinking as well as over enunciating, though to a lesser degree on No Spare Parts single.
That mindset even goes to how Jagger approaches these extra CD's, as if each are their own Tattoo You. He overthinks the concept of bonus tracks on these re-releases then his perfectionist tendencies get the best of him making Jagger create almost new tracks from these odds and sods lying about in the vaults.
But in the process destroying much of the ragged charm that made them "unreleased treasures" by trying to turn them into something they're not. It's interesting to see him re-visit history and then try to turn it into current day. It did work for Tattoo You, partially because the gap in years between release in songs was much narrower. However, the results, at best, were mixed on the EOMS bonus material and it seems the bonus disc of SG might end up being more than the same.
His voice is still a powerful instrument but not as powerful as in 1978. 2011 Jagger sounds fine on NSP but if he uses that voice for songs like "I Can't Help It" or "Claudine" the results will not be as favorable. Remarkable voice even now but painting the voice of a 68 year old man into a scene of thirtysomethings is an exercise in absurdity, that in many ways, however unintentional, disrespects both the fans and the band's legacy.
But, I'm still glad they're doing these bonus discs however if he continues doing so much new vocal work, and the re-issues continue over the next 3-5 years the results will be increasingly unsatisfying. No matter how talented and how much Mick "still got it" the voice of a 70 year old is no match for one a quarter century or more his junior. Sometimes it's like Mick is trying to compete vocally with himself, that is somewhat odd not to mention futile because 21st century Mick's voice is no match for his younger self's voice. Yet, it's almost like he thinks-that aside from the obvious age-factor and it's effect on his vocal power and range-he's a better "singer" today-in the traditional sense. Almost trying to prove he still has it, when that isn't really necessary at all.
I'm not saying release these songs as is or to forget them all together just examining that the way he approaches these re-issues creates some interesting contradictions and paradoxes.
On JLo's new single "Harder" Mick has shown that (if he want) he still has a powerfull voice.
The reason why he no longer uses this type of voice since Wandering Spirit is a mystery.
And he surprised the hell out of me on Plundered My Soul. So he still does have it, but.......i guess he saves it for special, once in 20 years, occasions.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
teleblaster
()
Date: October 22, 2011 09:46
Thanks for posting. Would LOVE to see them do this live..........dream on...
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Edward Twining
()
Date: October 22, 2011 09:46
Quote
big4
That mindset even goes to how Jagger approaches these extra CD's, as if each are their own Tattoo You. He overthinks the concept of bonus tracks on these re-releases then his perfectionist tendencies get the best of him making Jagger create almost new tracks from these odds and sods lying about in the vaults.
But in the process destroying much of the ragged charm that made them "unreleased treasures" by trying to turn them into something they're not. It's interesting to see him re-visit history and then try to turn it into current day. It did work for Tattoo You, partially because the gap in years between release in songs was much narrower. However, the results, at best, were mixed on the EOMS bonus material and it seems the bonus disc of SG might end up being more than the same.
His voice is still a powerful instrument but not as powerful as in 1978. 2011 Jagger sounds fine on NSP but if he uses that voice for songs like "I Can't Help It" or "Claudine" the results will not be as favorable. Remarkable voice even now but painting the voice of a 68 year old man into a scene of thirtysomethings is an exercise in absurdity, that in many ways, however unintentional, disrespects both the fans and the band's legacy.
But, I'm still glad they're doing these bonus discs however if he continues doing so much new vocal work, and the re-issues continue over the next 3-5 years the results will be increasingly unsatisfying. No matter how talented and how much Mick "still got it" the voice of a 70 year old is no match for one a quarter century or more his junior. Sometimes it's like Mick is trying to compete vocally with himself, that is somewhat odd not to mention futile because 21st century Mick's voice is no match for his younger self's voice. Yet, it's almost like he thinks-that aside from the obvious age-factor and it's effect on his vocal power and range-he's a better "singer" today-in the traditional sense. Almost trying to prove he still has it, when that isn't really necessary at all.
I'm not saying release these songs as is or to forget them all together just examining that the way he approaches these re-issues creates some interesting contradictions and paradoxes.
Jagger's new voice on 'No Spare Parts' is effective on the whole although towards the end i can feel the overaccentuation becoming a little more irritating, especially on that 'baby' lyric, and after. I think 'No Spare Parts' needed a little more focus for release from that of the original bootleg version, although vocally it is fairly obvious Jagger, even when he's just dabbling, had a much more impressive voice back in the day. The new version gives the song a little more focus, which was needed, yet something else is irretrievably lost. I just wish we had Jagger singing it in a more committed sense back in 1978. However, you are right, these days Jagger does tend to force his vocal too much, almost as though he's on a quest to prove he still has it, and his interpretational skills seem somehow lost. The original more casual, and natural vocal suited the song much better, only i feel it needed to feel a little more structured. However, he's a little luckier with 'No Spare Parts' ultimately, because his new vocal suits the song more that his efforts on the 'Exile On Main Street' extras, although even here, i think it will only be a matter of time, when we get much more familiar with this new vocal, that his voice once again will start to grate. He seems to have lost the thickness within his voice almost completely since 78, and it does tend to sound too thin and too strained these days, and maybe too low too.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: October 22, 2011 11:01
Quote
big4Quote
Rip This
...I think what your really saying is that in 1978 Mick would have released it very tongue in cheek more like a parody....sort of like the original whereas now he automatically censors himself....I think he's even admitted that he censors himself now....wouldn't it be nice to turn back that clock....for everybody....
I think you raise a great point and that is the self-consciousness that entered the Stones music around the time of IORR and slowly evolved to where it is now on latter day releases like ABB and the EOMS bonus tracks, as well as No Spare Parts. A lot of thinking as well as over enunciating, though to a lesser degree on No Spare Parts single.
That mindset even goes to how Jagger approaches these extra CD's, as if each are their own Tattoo You. He overthinks the concept of bonus tracks on these re-releases then his perfectionist tendencies get the best of him making Jagger create almost new tracks from these odds and sods lying about in the vaults.
But in the process destroying much of the ragged charm that made them "unreleased treasures" by trying to turn them into something they're not. It's interesting to see him re-visit history and then try to turn it into current day. It did work for Tattoo You, partially because the gap in years between release in songs was much narrower. However, the results, at best, were mixed on the EOMS bonus material and it seems the bonus disc of SG might end up being more than the same.
His voice is still a powerful instrument but not as powerful as in 1978. 2011 Jagger sounds fine on NSP but if he uses that voice for songs like "I Can't Help It" or "Claudine" the results will not be as favorable. Remarkable voice even now but painting the voice of a 68 year old man into a scene of thirtysomethings is an exercise in absurdity, that in many ways, however unintentional, disrespects both the fans and the band's legacy.
But, I'm still glad they're doing these bonus discs however if he continues doing so much new vocal work, and the re-issues continue over the next 3-5 years the results will be increasingly unsatisfying. No matter how talented and how much Mick "still got it" the voice of a 70 year old is no match for one a quarter century or more his junior. Sometimes it's like Mick is trying to compete vocally with himself, that is somewhat odd not to mention futile because 21st century Mick's voice is no match for his younger self's voice. Yet, it's almost like he thinks-that aside from the obvious age-factor and it's effect on his vocal power and range-he's a better "singer" today-in the traditional sense. Almost trying to prove he still has it, when that isn't really necessary at all.
I'm not saying release these songs as is or to forget them all together just examining that the way he approaches these re-issues creates some interesting contradictions and paradoxes.
Very nicely put the key issue here: that of Mick's approach. Full of, indeed, "interesting contradictions and paradoxes". There is that crucial and distinctive feature in Jagger that denies the historicality and nostalgy in the sense of "I am past my prime, I admit". That seems to be one thing Jagger never seems to admit, or as long as he makes music in one way or other. I think that is part of his personality: that makes him click, pushes him forward, motivates him. That's his artistic drive: "I can do that!". No even to "I can do still" because even admitting that would show a bit of mortality. There is no lesser gear in his engine. The paradox is that to make a historical project like Deluxe album properly, one should neet to have a smaller gear, and treat the past with a care and respect but Jagger can't. You do it as you make your next hit single to or you don't do it at all.
From the base we know by now, Jagger's method in Deluxe projects is exactly the method of TATTOO YOU. I think the truth is he has no choice if he is going to be interest in projects like these. That's the way he works. In a way I appreciate his approach and artistic drive - that's the one that has kept the band so vital, current and alive through all these years, but on the other hand, I can understand why it creates in these deluxe projects such anachronisms that are open to a justified criticism.
So what I have by now tried to do is to forget the "historical accuracy" or "authenticity" of these bonus tracks. I think we should - this is my advice - treat them as musical entities of their own, and view them just in terms of their own. They are exactly not "new stuff" like A BIGGER BANG but not really archives stuff (like we have in the bootlegs) either. Something quite approximate to TATTOO YOU stuff I guess. But most likely it will be only kind of new released music we will ever to get from The Rolling Stones. The sooner one get to used to that idea, the easier it will be to follow the band from now on.
The fact that they release a single based on archive material that never made the actual album speaks already volumes of the nature of the project. They want it to be played in the radio - as with "Plundered My Soul". It is not just a nice extra to sell some copies but there is more involved. They want the stuff to be liked and played, be as perfect and functional as their proper releases. The 'proto-TATTOO YOU stuff is surrounded with more authentic stuff - like "Plundered" or "Following The River" with alternate takes of "Loving Cup" or "Soul Survivor", etc. - but I think the substance is the 'new' stuff that gets its justification released through a media like these (Deluxe version).
I think one day - after seen maybe three of four Deluxe albums - we will have an interesting "BEST OF BONUS ALBUMS" collection, including "Plundered", "River", "No pare Parts", etc. and we will view it - rightly - as the best Stones album since TATTOO YOU!
The big issue is can Jagger ever be motivated to work 'new' Rolling Stones music outside the archive stuff again. At the moment I am inclined to think that the answer is negative. I think - like with TATTOO YOU project - the situation is ideal for Mick. The whole thing is just in his hands and he doesn't need to rely - or work with - the others (Keith) at all. The others have alraedy done their significant contributions to the tracks. Like Keith said in 1981, asked why he wasn't involved in finalizing TATTOO YOU, that he didn't need to because his contribution was already done by then (in the original sessions). What Jagger now needs from Keith to base a potential Stones track is already there on the vaults! How handy for him! No confrontations! It sounds like this method works for Keith's working ethics nowadays, too... And we can also understand why Keith is the one for "historical authenticity"... more authentic (unfinished, bootleg-like): more Keith, less Mick...
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-22 11:20 by Doxa.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
frankotero
()
Date: October 22, 2011 11:17
I get the impression some of us believe Mick is trying to change or re-write Stones history with his work on these bonus disc. The fact is they are out-takes brushed up enough to be listenable. Plundered was outstanding, but I think there are very few of those lying around, afterall they probably would have been released already. Furthermore these disc are not being pushed as real albums. I think it's great regardless of Micks now versus then voice and hope there will be a lot more to come. Also, I'm hoping for a proper new album like most of us hard core fans.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: October 22, 2011 11:35
Quote
frankotero
I get the impression some of us believe Mick is trying to change or re-write Stones history with his work on these bonus disc. The fact is they are out-takes brushed up enough to be listenable. Plundered was outstanding, but I think there are very few of those lying around,
I don't think either that there is any motivation for historical redescription - that Jagger somehow tries to manipulate how we think of the past, what was recorded and when, etc. That is only a by-product in the process (and which I think has only a significance to rather limited group of historically minded hardcore fans.) No, I think the only thing he matters is how the officially released songs sound like, and he tries to make them as perfect as he can. Some imperfect jokes - like Keith's guide-line vocals of "Soul Survivor" - can be included, but that can't be the substance for the whole project/album. I don't think Jagger gives a shit if the songs is made for SOME GIRLS or EMOTIONAL RESCUE if it is good (finished) enough to be released. That sort of historical accuracy sounds probably too nerd-like for him (can he even disinguish or remember those sessions in his mind now?)
But if there is something odd and paradoxial is that I think about the only people who are actually interested in these "bonus tracks" are the hardcore fans who - more or less - are familiar with their origins already. So you can't fool but only confuse them. This thread is an example of the former!
- Doxa
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Green Lady
()
Date: October 22, 2011 11:37
Quote
winterQuote
Green Lady
A spokeswoman for The Stones told Music Week that No Spare Parts did not have a re-recorded vocal, although other bonus tracks on the re-release do have new vocal parts.
[www.musicweek.com]
Interesting... Hands up if you believe the Spokeswoman?
You guys are getting all bent out of shape. NSP did not have a RE-recorded vocal; the new MJ vocal (final take that was used) was just recorded once. MJ/Was didn't RE-record that final take. Does that properly parse the spokeswoman's words? lol.
Oh dear. Where's skipstone when we need him?
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
frankotero
()
Date: October 22, 2011 11:58
It's interesting how we critique the music, I learn a lot from it. On the other hand I can't help but think it's as easy as liking or dis-liking a song. NSP isn't an epic but it's a nice listen that I will enjoy several more times.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: October 22, 2011 13:39
Quote
frankotero
It's interesting how we critique the music, I learn a lot from it. On the other hand I can't help but think it's as easy as liking or dis-liking a song. .
Exactly, to begin with, and fundamentally, it is a question of liking or disliking. You can not fool yourself... You hear what you hear, you make the judgment with your ears, and that's it (of course, then one can start analyzing why one happens to like or not it, but that's another story).
But then there is the context of the listening experience in the very large sense of the term. What you are used to, what are your expectations, etc. All these things can vary, and change the listening experience. Let's say that we haven't ever heard the bootleg versions of "No Spare Parts". It will come out of blue like "Plundered My Soul" did. I will not say that people who now critizise it from the base of listening the bootleg version for decades, would like (instead of disliking) it in that case, but I would claim that they would approach it differently. My guess is that they actually would like it a bit more in that case.
For example, the critique with Jagger's 'thin, nasal' current voice is very much to do in comparing that to the 'original' version. In this case I would say it is a nasty fact that we have such a version in the first place. Good that "Plundered" has not anything of the sort to 'save' the current listening experience
... It could be that they even with a purpose used that kind of songs in EXILE which hadn't 'counter-examples' in the past. Perhaps that was the idea behind of not using "too familiar bootleg stuff" as they at the time claimed...- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-22 13:43 by Doxa.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
robertfraser
()
Date: October 22, 2011 14:40
Quote
Mathijs
Oh boy...this is bad....
First, it was a crappy outtake in the first place. It was a jam, a play through, two chords and half a lyrics, nothing more, nothing less. It was quite boring and lame in the first place.
But now...why in gods name does Jagger overact so badly? Just as that Superheavy shite, why does he think he needs to sing like a parody to Mick Jagger The Great 1972 R&R Growler? Why does he need to totally overdo it?
So, with Exile we got one good song with good vocals, and half a dozen of decent songs with totally overblown voclas. Now we get a dozen of lame songs with totally over the top vocals..I mean, who is waiting here for Petrol Gang with 2011 vocals? I know I am not...
Mathijs
For the first time in 12 years since reading this board I disagree with Mathijs. Perhaps because I hadn't heard the original outake and I am coming to this song with fresh ears, i love it. It has been stuck in my head for 2 days.
In the vast ocean of crap that is the music industry these days i am glad of a tiny drop of shimmering magic this track captures. I am also glad My favorite band is still around.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
KRiffhard
()
Date: October 22, 2011 14:59
Quote
robertfraserQuote
Mathijs
Oh boy...this is bad....
First, it was a crappy outtake in the first place. It was a jam, a play through, two chords and half a lyrics, nothing more, nothing less. It was quite boring and lame in the first place.
But now...why in gods name does Jagger overact so badly? Just as that Superheavy shite, why does he think he needs to sing like a parody to Mick Jagger The Great 1972 R&R Growler? Why does he need to totally overdo it?
So, with Exile we got one good song with good vocals, and half a dozen of decent songs with totally overblown vocals. Now we get a dozen of lame songs with totally over the top vocals..I mean, who is waiting here for Petrol Gang with 2011 vocals? I know I am not...
Mathijs
Totally agree. Mick's voice is the real problem.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
runrudolph
()
Date: October 22, 2011 16:23
It is yeah.
just listened to the Bootleg song, it way way better.
Stop oversinging jagger, we know you read the IORR Sites.
jeroen
just listened to the Bootleg song, it way way better.
Stop oversinging jagger, we know you read the IORR Sites.
jeroen
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
RobertJohnson
()
Date: October 22, 2011 16:46
Not so lousy as "Plundered", but a mediocre jam result, nothing more. I don't understand why they don't complete these basic tracks with a bridge and a solo if they add new vocals and new overdubs. Further unfortunately they are following their bad tradition in the last years to release mediocre tracks as singles whereas jewels like "Some People Tell Me" are disregarded and aren't under the 12 tracks even.
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Honestman
()
Date: October 22, 2011 19:54
Quote
Doxa
...
So what I have by now tried to do is to forget the "historical accuracy" or "authenticity" of these bonus tracks. I think we should - this is my advice - treat them as musical entities of their own, and view them just in terms of their own...
Hi Doxa, it's been quite a while
You're right about it, but easier to say than to do.I don't know, I hope not, but I'm scared, how many of the forthcomin' tracks will be overdubbed by Mick, but I'm wonderin' if sometimes one should not leave these tracks, the way they were.
I mean we all get the bootleg versions, my point here is to say , if they can't do better , why not release them as they are with the best sound ever. Once again just my thoughts
I will get this super-deluxe set anyway and probably but only time will tell, that I will be used to them in some years.HMN
Re: Some girls outake on Radio 2 tommorow
Posted by:
Edward Twining
()
Date: October 23, 2011 06:14
Quote
Doxa
For example, the critique with Jagger's 'thin, nasal' current voice is very much to do in comparing that to the 'original' version. In this case I would say it is a nasty fact that we have such a version in the first place. Good that "Plundered" has not anything of the sort to 'save' the current listening experience
- Doxa
I'm not sure that's quite true, Doxa. 'Plundered My Soul' also had quite a lot of criticism with regard to Mick's vocal too, on this forum, despite there being no earlier vocal version for which to judge it next to. 'Plundered My Soul' is great despite Jagger's vocal, and not because of it, almost, pretty much because it had that early seventies vibe musically, which one could relate to (and especially with regard to 'Tumbling Dice') in common with the Stones best work from that period. Personally, if anything Jagger's new vocal actually works much better this time round on 'No Spare Parts', where his more recent vocal coincidentally luckily for Jagger, actually takes on a campy caricature with relation to country music, not unlike his earlier efforts from the seventies to a degree because of the context in which the song belongs. Yes, there's still an element of overaccentuation, but for me i find it can be more easily excused, except for perhaps the final third of the song. That's perhaps why it works better than his attempts at a rock vocal on 'Plundered My Soul', because the less serious musical context actually suits his voice better. I agree with big4 though. Given a song with a different musical vibe from this period may spell disaster for Jagger, especially within the context of listening to the original 'Some Girls' tracks alongside it. You can perhaps compare these new tracks to the way 'Tattoo You' was assembled to a degree, but the passage of time, between the demos and the finished product, with regards to Mick's vocal cords makes all the difference in my opinion.
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