Tell Me :
Talk
Yeah, but I don't like guitar solos over fantastic licks or over Mick's vocals.
No, my last line didn't say what you are implying at all. On the contrary, it said that I liked the versions with Keith, and that I never complained about the studio take.
You should go for a political career with these kind of twists...
Because, as I said, there is no reason at all to complain about the studio HB version (nor about the live versions during the golden era). Because it's all there: rhythm and melody. But that's not the case on the BS studio version: there's a lack of melody. If you like melody of course.
As much as I prefer Taylor, I have to agree that the released version of BS is the most powerful one. The others are interesting, but the Stones picked the right one to put on Sticky Fingers. Taylor had plenty of other moments to shine on that record, and he did.
I do many times..
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-05-13 19:24 by Amsterdamned.
Here's the complete BS clip and SFM as a bonus. Rhythm and melody!
I'm a guitarist. You may be too, I dunno. I'm also a Clapton fanatic. Taylor plays the solo, Clapton plays slide on this version. Can't prove it but I know it's true. After studying both these players, I can tell which is which.
I don't mean that in a smart ass way at all. I respect your opinion, I just disagree. Have a good one.
So please name one other song where Taylor takes this many stops. I can't come up with any, and I know it's part of Clapton's playing style.
Aha, send your paycheck to me please. Clapton's slide is in standard tuning, you can tell by the licks on the high B and E string. And, Taylor's not on the Clapton version. It's Richards in the left channel, Clapton slide in the middle and lead (overdubbed) slightly to the right, then Al Kooper on rhythm guitar in the right channel. Stu on piano, Bobby Keys sax, and of course Watts and Wyman.
The Clapton version can not originate from 1969 -it's December 18, 1970. The lead and backup vocals have clearly defined harmony equal to the official version, which they didn't figure out and record until April 1970, and this is also true for the sax solo.
Taylor of course is clearly audible on the official version, it's the tremelo picked rhythm guitar. All 18 other guitars are Richards.
And to state that the official version is boring as it lacks melody, well, that's just wonky to say....
Mathijs
what a man ! must have 36 hands!!! ha ha genius!
but seriously , folks (to quote joe walsh)
so mick taylor is audible just in the verses apart from the last one ? , the rest including the choruses are surely some of the 18 richards ones !?
If the version that Clapton played on was a birthday party, isn't it unlikely Clapton would have done a second guitar as an overdub?
In any case, Clapton was busy touring UK and Europe with Delaney & Bonnie during Dec. 69.
Thank you very much!
The party could have been after the actual recording session, perhaps...
I dunno Mathijs. I always respect your opinion on anything guitar related but I think I have to respectfully disagree with you here. You may be right about Clapton being in standard but you sight the licks played on the high E and B as your proof. He could actually be in open E or D. Most likely E. Eric did use those tunings on songs like "Anyday", "Evil", a great live version of "Ramblin' On My Mind", and his cover of "The Sky Is Crying" and more. But it's possible he's in standard. I really doubt that Eric overdubbed the lead though. That's straight up Mick T to my ears. Really doesn't sound much like Eric at all.
And it wasn't I that said the studio version was boring. I love the studio version.
edit: I just went back and listened to it again for the 3rd time today. You may be right about the lead being overdubbed but it still sounds far more like Taylor than Clapton. I can't hear any other evidence of Taylor playing on the track, whether that means he's really low in the mix or just plain not there, I'm not sure. But I am sure that TO MY EARS, Eric is playing slide, probably in open E but possibly open D or standard, and Mick T is playing the lead.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-05-16 21:10 by Tumblin_Dice_07.
I don't really know what you mean. I listened to it again and can't really hear these "stops" you're talking about. I believe it's Taylor playing that part.
I would agree with you here, but after listening to it again several times, the lead does sound overdubbed. Of course it could just be the way it's mixed. It still sounds like Mick Taylor to me though, overdubbed or not.
The probable lack of an overdub is why I agree it's probably Taylor.
The overdub is there for sure, just listen to how the slide enters behind the lead guitar at the far end of the solo, but before the solo ends. To my ears the lead guitar doesn't sound anything like Taylor. Taylor's solo's are always fluid with swift bursts of notes, and not these longer sustaining notes that Clapton took from BB King. The sounds is also totally not like Taylor has ever sounded.
Concerning Al Kooper: Keith stated that Kooped is on piano, but Kooper has stated that he did this birthday party session and played guitar. The second rhythm guitar is very, very simple, and I just don't believe Taylor would play something like that on a recording.
Mathijs
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: May 13, 2011 17:02
Quote
Amsterdamned
I think I have every bootleg from this era, and I love them all. But none of them, not even the versions on the excellent Rattlesnake STP 72 (where this one is from) beats the original.
PS: BTW, this is a very good example of Keith's coolest licks being drowned by Taylor's more boring licks, imo (right before the chorus) <DP>
The SF version is ok, but I prefer them as a live band. Imo Taylor was the less boring
guitar player the Stones ever had when it comes to guitar solos.
So in the end it's a matter of taste.
Yeah, but I don't like guitar solos over fantastic licks or over Mick's vocals.
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: May 13, 2011 17:03
Quote
kleermakerQuote
DandelionPowderman
I'm talking about the unbeatable original studio versions, of BS, and JJF for that matter.
imo, they have never been surpassed. That's why I was a bit surprised by kleermaker's take on it. BS studio version is perfection. You gotta be a very big Taylorite to describe that song as "boring", just because Taylor is inaudible on the studio take - or the song is lacking his melodic lines, well-known from the live versions.
I never complain about not hearing Keith's guitar (he only play bass) on the GHS-version of Heartbreaker, although I like the live versions w Keith.
Your last line just says it all! Think about it. As Taylor said in an interview: music consists of rhythm and melody. I miss the melody on BS studio, but I don't miss the rhythm (and melody of course) on Hearbreaker studio.
No, my last line didn't say what you are implying at all. On the contrary, it said that I liked the versions with Keith, and that I never complained about the studio take.
You should go for a political career with these kind of twists...
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: May 13, 2011 17:13
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
kleermakerQuote
DandelionPowderman
I'm talking about the unbeatable original studio versions, of BS, and JJF for that matter.
imo, they have never been surpassed. That's why I was a bit surprised by kleermaker's take on it. BS studio version is perfection. You gotta be a very big Taylorite to describe that song as "boring", just because Taylor is inaudible on the studio take - or the song is lacking his melodic lines, well-known from the live versions.
I never complain about not hearing Keith's guitar (he only play bass) on the GHS-version of Heartbreaker, although I like the live versions w Keith.
Your last line just says it all! Think about it
No, my last line didn't say what you are implying at all. On the contrary, it said that I liked the versions with Keith, and that I never complained about the studio take.
You should go for a political career with these kind of twists...
Because, as I said, there is no reason at all to complain about the studio HB version (nor about the live versions during the golden era). Because it's all there: rhythm and melody. But that's not the case on the BS studio version: there's a lack of melody. If you like melody of course.
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: May 13, 2011 17:25
Quote
DandelionPowderman
I'm talking about the unbeatable original studio versions, of BS, and JJF for that matter.
imo, they have never been surpassed. That's why I was a bit surprised by kleermaker's take on it. BS studio version is perfection. You gotta be a very big Taylorite to describe that song as "boring", just because Taylor is inaudible on the studio take - or the song is lacking his melodic lines, well-known from the live versions.
I never complain about not hearing Keith's guitar (he only play bass) on the GHS-version of Heartbreaker, although I like the live versions w Keith.
As much as I prefer Taylor, I have to agree that the released version of BS is the most powerful one. The others are interesting, but the Stones picked the right one to put on Sticky Fingers. Taylor had plenty of other moments to shine on that record, and he did.
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: May 13, 2011 18:04
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Amsterdamned
I think I have every bootleg from this era, and I love them all. But none of them, not even the versions on the excellent Rattlesnake STP 72 (where this one is from) beats the original.
PS: BTW, this is a very good example of Keith's coolest licks being drowned by Taylor's more boring licks, imo (right before the chorus) <DP>
The SF version is ok, but I prefer them as a live band. Imo Taylor was the less boring
guitar player the Stones ever had when it comes to guitar solos.
So in the end it's a matter of taste.
Yeah, but I don't like guitar solos over fantastic licks or over Mick's vocals.
I do many times..
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-05-13 19:24 by Amsterdamned.
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
CousinC
()
Date: May 13, 2011 18:13
I always loved the 69 birthday jam Brown Sugar. But somehow in the end the original version still stands the test of time.
But I remember that even the Stones weren't really shure in those days and for some time the Clapton version was favoured as the coming new single!
But I remember that even the Stones weren't really shure in those days and for some time the Clapton version was favoured as the coming new single!
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
Shawn20
()
Date: May 13, 2011 18:14
I suppose it is a matter of taste, but I also love Taylor's solo on the 72 clip of Brown Sugar. That is my favorite live clip of the Stones. If anyone ever wanted to know what all the fuss was about - watching that will explain it. The ultimate Jagger.
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: May 13, 2011 18:27
Quote
Shawn20
I suppose it is a matter of taste, but I also love Taylor's solo on the 72 clip of Brown Sugar. That is my favorite live clip of the Stones. If anyone ever wanted to know what all the fuss was about - watching that will explain it. The ultimate Jagger.
Here's the complete BS clip and SFM as a bonus. Rhythm and melody!
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
Tumblin_Dice_07
()
Date: May 14, 2011 23:10
Quote
Rank Stranger
To me it sounds like classic Clapton!
Anyway, a great song! Live AND studio!!
I'm a guitarist. You may be too, I dunno. I'm also a Clapton fanatic. Taylor plays the solo, Clapton plays slide on this version. Can't prove it but I know it's true. After studying both these players, I can tell which is which.
I don't mean that in a smart ass way at all. I respect your opinion, I just disagree. Have a good one.
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: May 16, 2011 12:09
Quote
Tumblin_Dice_07Quote
Rank Stranger
To me it sounds like classic Clapton!
Anyway, a great song! Live AND studio!!
I'm a guitarist. You may be too, I dunno. I'm also a Clapton fanatic. Taylor plays the solo, Clapton plays slide on this version. Can't prove it but I know it's true. After studying both these players, I can tell which is which.
I don't mean that in a smart ass way at all. I respect your opinion, I just disagree. Have a good one.
So please name one other song where Taylor takes this many stops. I can't come up with any, and I know it's part of Clapton's playing style.
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: May 16, 2011 16:11
Quote
Tumblin_Dice_07
To chime in on the discussion about the Clapton version......Clapton and Taylor are both playing. Clapton is playing slide, and I'll bet my next pay check he's in open tuning, most likely open G although maybe D or E. Clapton usually uses open tuning for slide and you can tell by the "sliding chords" he's using at times that it's an open tuning. He might have played a Fender. He does have a cleaner sound than Taylor on this track for sure but it most likely wasn't Clapton's guitar but one belonging to the Stones. Taylor plays the solo on this version. It's classic Mick T.
Aha, send your paycheck to me please. Clapton's slide is in standard tuning, you can tell by the licks on the high B and E string. And, Taylor's not on the Clapton version. It's Richards in the left channel, Clapton slide in the middle and lead (overdubbed) slightly to the right, then Al Kooper on rhythm guitar in the right channel. Stu on piano, Bobby Keys sax, and of course Watts and Wyman.
The Clapton version can not originate from 1969 -it's December 18, 1970. The lead and backup vocals have clearly defined harmony equal to the official version, which they didn't figure out and record until April 1970, and this is also true for the sax solo.
Taylor of course is clearly audible on the official version, it's the tremelo picked rhythm guitar. All 18 other guitars are Richards.
And to state that the official version is boring as it lacks melody, well, that's just wonky to say....
Mathijs
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: May 16, 2011 16:32
Quote
MathijsQuote
Tumblin_Dice_07
To chime in on the discussion about the Clapton version......Clapton and Taylor are both playing. Clapton is playing slide, and I'll bet my next pay check he's in open tuning, most likely open G although maybe D or E. Clapton usually uses open tuning for slide and you can tell by the "sliding chords" he's using at times that it's an open tuning. He might have played a Fender. He does have a cleaner sound than Taylor on this track for sure but it most likely wasn't Clapton's guitar but one belonging to the Stones. Taylor plays the solo on this version. It's classic Mick T.
Aha, send your paycheck to me please. Clapton's slide is in standard tuning, you can tell by the licks on the high B and E string. And, Taylor's not on the Clapton version. It's Richards in the left channel, Clapton slide in the middle and lead (overdubbed) slightly to the right, then Al Kooper on rhythm guitar in the right channel. Stu on piano, Bobby Keys sax, and of course Watts and Wyman.
The Clapton version can not originate from 1969 -it's December 18, 1970. The lead and backup vocals have clearly defined harmony equal to the official version, which they didn't figure out and record until April 1970, and this is also true for the sax solo.
Taylor of course is clearly audible on the official version, it's the tremelo picked rhythm guitar. All 18 other guitars are Richards.
And to state that the official version is boring as it lacks melody, well, that's just wonky to say....
Mathijs
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
straycatblues73
()
Date: May 16, 2011 16:33
Quote
MathijsQuote
Tumblin_Dice_07
To chime in on the discussion about the Clapton version......Clapton and Taylor are both playing. Clapton is playing slide, and I'll bet my next pay check he's in open tuning, most likely open G although maybe D or E. Clapton usually uses open tuning for slide and you can tell by the "sliding chords" he's using at times that it's an open tuning. He might have played a Fender. He does have a cleaner sound than Taylor on this track for sure but it most likely wasn't Clapton's guitar but one belonging to the Stones. Taylor plays the solo on this version. It's classic Mick T.
Aha, send your paycheck to me please. Clapton's slide is in standard tuning, you can tell by the licks on the high B and E string. And, Taylor's not on the Clapton version. It's Richards in the left channel, Clapton slide in the middle and lead (overdubbed) slightly to the right, then Al Kooper on rhythm guitar in the right channel. Stu on piano, Bobby Keys sax, and of course Watts and Wyman.
The Clapton version can not originate from 1969 -it's December 18, 1970. The lead and backup vocals have clearly defined harmony equal to the official version, which they didn't figure out and record until April 1970, and this is also true for the sax solo.
Taylor of course is clearly audible on the official version, it's the tremelo picked rhythm guitar. All 18 other guitars are Richards.
And to state that the official version is boring as it lacks melody, well, that's just wonky to say....
Mathijs
what a man ! must have 36 hands!!! ha ha genius!
but seriously , folks (to quote joe walsh)
so mick taylor is audible just in the verses apart from the last one ? , the rest including the choruses are surely some of the 18 richards ones !?
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
skipstone
()
Date: May 16, 2011 17:03
I never believed Taylor was on the single/LP version of Brown Sugar actually...
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: May 16, 2011 17:11
Quote
MathijsQuote
Tumblin_Dice_07
To chime in on the discussion about the Clapton version......Clapton and Taylor are both playing. Clapton is playing slide, and I'll bet my next pay check he's in open tuning, most likely open G although maybe D or E. Clapton usually uses open tuning for slide and you can tell by the "sliding chords" he's using at times that it's an open tuning. He might have played a Fender. He does have a cleaner sound than Taylor on this track for sure but it most likely wasn't Clapton's guitar but one belonging to the Stones. Taylor plays the solo on this version. It's classic Mick T.
Aha, send your paycheck to me please. Clapton's slide is in standard tuning, you can tell by the licks on the high B and E string. And, Taylor's not on the Clapton version. It's Richards in the left channel, Clapton slide in the middle and lead (overdubbed) slightly to the right, then Al Kooper on rhythm guitar in the right channel. Stu on piano, Bobby Keys sax, and of course Watts and Wyman.
The Clapton version can not originate from 1969 -it's December 18, 1970. The lead and backup vocals have clearly defined harmony equal to the official version, which they didn't figure out and record until April 1970, and this is also true for the sax solo.
Taylor of course is clearly audible on the official version, it's the tremelo picked rhythm guitar. All 18 other guitars are Richards.
And to state that the official version is boring as it lacks melody, well, that's just wonky to say....
Mathijs
If the version that Clapton played on was a birthday party, isn't it unlikely Clapton would have done a second guitar as an overdub?
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
Thricenay
()
Date: May 16, 2011 17:15
Quote
MathijsQuote
Tumblin_Dice_07
To chime in on the discussion about the Clapton version......Clapton and Taylor are both playing. Clapton is playing slide, and I'll bet my next pay check he's in open tuning, most likely open G although maybe D or E. Clapton usually uses open tuning for slide and you can tell by the "sliding chords" he's using at times that it's an open tuning. He might have played a Fender. He does have a cleaner sound than Taylor on this track for sure but it most likely wasn't Clapton's guitar but one belonging to the Stones. Taylor plays the solo on this version. It's classic Mick T.
Aha, send your paycheck to me please. Clapton's slide is in standard tuning, you can tell by the licks on the high B and E string. And, Taylor's not on the Clapton version. It's Richards in the left channel, Clapton slide in the middle and lead (overdubbed) slightly to the right, then Al Kooper on rhythm guitar in the right channel. Stu on piano, Bobby Keys sax, and of course Watts and Wyman.
The Clapton version can not originate from 1969 -it's December 18, 1970. The lead and backup vocals have clearly defined harmony equal to the official version, which they didn't figure out and record until April 1970, and this is also true for the sax solo.
Taylor of course is clearly audible on the official version, it's the tremelo picked rhythm guitar. All 18 other guitars are Richards.
And to state that the official version is boring as it lacks melody, well, that's just wonky to say....
Mathijs
In any case, Clapton was busy touring UK and Europe with Delaney & Bonnie during Dec. 69.
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
Rank Stranger
()
Date: May 16, 2011 17:32
Quote
Mathijs
Clapton slide in the middle and lead (overdubbed) slightly to the right
Thank you very much!
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
rootsman
()
Date: May 16, 2011 18:21
Quote
71Tele
If the version that Clapton played on was a birthday party, isn't it unlikely Clapton would have done a second guitar as an overdub?
The party could have been after the actual recording session, perhaps...
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
Tumblin_Dice_07
()
Date: May 16, 2011 20:47
Quote
MathijsQuote
Tumblin_Dice_07
To chime in on the discussion about the Clapton version......Clapton and Taylor are both playing. Clapton is playing slide, and I'll bet my next pay check he's in open tuning, most likely open G although maybe D or E. Clapton usually uses open tuning for slide and you can tell by the "sliding chords" he's using at times that it's an open tuning. He might have played a Fender. He does have a cleaner sound than Taylor on this track for sure but it most likely wasn't Clapton's guitar but one belonging to the Stones. Taylor plays the solo on this version. It's classic Mick T.
Aha, send your paycheck to me please. Clapton's slide is in standard tuning, you can tell by the licks on the high B and E string. And, Taylor's not on the Clapton version. It's Richards in the left channel, Clapton slide in the middle and lead (overdubbed) slightly to the right, then Al Kooper on rhythm guitar in the right channel. Stu on piano, Bobby Keys sax, and of course Watts and Wyman.
The Clapton version can not originate from 1969 -it's December 18, 1970. The lead and backup vocals have clearly defined harmony equal to the official version, which they didn't figure out and record until April 1970, and this is also true for the sax solo.
Taylor of course is clearly audible on the official version, it's the tremelo picked rhythm guitar. All 18 other guitars are Richards.
And to state that the official version is boring as it lacks melody, well, that's just wonky to say....
Mathijs
I dunno Mathijs. I always respect your opinion on anything guitar related but I think I have to respectfully disagree with you here. You may be right about Clapton being in standard but you sight the licks played on the high E and B as your proof. He could actually be in open E or D. Most likely E. Eric did use those tunings on songs like "Anyday", "Evil", a great live version of "Ramblin' On My Mind", and his cover of "The Sky Is Crying" and more. But it's possible he's in standard. I really doubt that Eric overdubbed the lead though. That's straight up Mick T to my ears. Really doesn't sound much like Eric at all.
And it wasn't I that said the studio version was boring. I love the studio version.
edit: I just went back and listened to it again for the 3rd time today. You may be right about the lead being overdubbed but it still sounds far more like Taylor than Clapton. I can't hear any other evidence of Taylor playing on the track, whether that means he's really low in the mix or just plain not there, I'm not sure. But I am sure that TO MY EARS, Eric is playing slide, probably in open E but possibly open D or standard, and Mick T is playing the lead.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-05-16 21:10 by Tumblin_Dice_07.
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
Tumblin_Dice_07
()
Date: May 16, 2011 20:52
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Tumblin_Dice_07Quote
Rank Stranger
To me it sounds like classic Clapton!
Anyway, a great song! Live AND studio!!
I'm a guitarist. You may be too, I dunno. I'm also a Clapton fanatic. Taylor plays the solo, Clapton plays slide on this version. Can't prove it but I know it's true. After studying both these players, I can tell which is which.
I don't mean that in a smart ass way at all. I respect your opinion, I just disagree. Have a good one.
So please name one other song where Taylor takes this many stops. I can't come up with any, and I know it's part of Clapton's playing style.
I don't really know what you mean. I listened to it again and can't really hear these "stops" you're talking about. I believe it's Taylor playing that part.
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
Tumblin_Dice_07
()
Date: May 16, 2011 21:14
Quote
71Tele
If the version that Clapton played on was a birthday party, isn't it unlikely Clapton would have done a second guitar as an overdub?
I would agree with you here, but after listening to it again several times, the lead does sound overdubbed. Of course it could just be the way it's mixed. It still sounds like Mick Taylor to me though, overdubbed or not.
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: May 16, 2011 21:21
Quote
Tumblin_Dice_07Quote
71Tele
If the version that Clapton played on was a birthday party, isn't it unlikely Clapton would have done a second guitar as an overdub?
I would agree with you here, but after listening to it again several times, the lead does sound overdubbed. Of course it could just be the way it's mixed. It still sounds like Mick Taylor to me though, overdubbed or not.
The probable lack of an overdub is why I agree it's probably Taylor.
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: May 16, 2011 22:08
Quote
71TeleQuote
Tumblin_Dice_07Quote
71Tele
If the version that Clapton played on was a birthday party, isn't it unlikely Clapton would have done a second guitar as an overdub?
I would agree with you here, but after listening to it again several times, the lead does sound overdubbed. Of course it could just be the way it's mixed. It still sounds like Mick Taylor to me though, overdubbed or not.
The probable lack of an overdub is why I agree it's probably Taylor.
The overdub is there for sure, just listen to how the slide enters behind the lead guitar at the far end of the solo, but before the solo ends. To my ears the lead guitar doesn't sound anything like Taylor. Taylor's solo's are always fluid with swift bursts of notes, and not these longer sustaining notes that Clapton took from BB King. The sounds is also totally not like Taylor has ever sounded.
Concerning Al Kooper: Keith stated that Kooped is on piano, but Kooper has stated that he did this birthday party session and played guitar. The second rhythm guitar is very, very simple, and I just don't believe Taylor would play something like that on a recording.
Mathijs
Re: Brown Sugar Versions
Posted by:
tjkrol
()
Date: January 25, 2012 21:03
Is there a vinyl rip available for download of "Brown Sugar" & "Wild Horses" from the Shelley pressing of "Hot Rocks"?
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