Quote
Rocky Dijon
It's logic like this that makes this board worthwhile.

i know and it's very suprising these facts don't get more discussion around here.

People deny truth every day, StonesTod. It is a sad fact of life.

Quote
flilflam
The problem with most Keith haters is quite simple. There are way too many amateur medical doctors out there who seem perfectly comfortable diagnosing brain damage from afar, with no formal training at all. And I forgot to mention all the amateur arthritis experts and alcohol abuse experts, once again with no medical training at all. I wrote a thread called Keith Bashers are Frustrated Musicians a few months ago. Needless to say, this was met with anger because some amateur musicians were unabe to accept that their guitar skills were sub par.

I have said this before and will say it again. Keith's guitar skills should be judged by the studio work only. I was very pleased with the musicianship on A Bigger Bang. No one will remember a mediocre stage performance. We will always have the CD's and vinyl records.

yes, we remember your thread. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now. And it has nothing to do with anyone's anger:

1. To say you must be a frustrated musician because you simply report the observation that Keith was playing very poorly is complete crap. Why? It is just an observation, and although there are many guitarists here, one doesn't have to be one to make that observation.

2. You said Keith should only be judged on studio work. This makes absolutely no sense. When what you are "selling" as a professional musical act is your show, and charging top prices for it, how can the quality of the performance be exempted from judgment?

3. Why should anyone you don't know, haven't ever met, or whose playing you haven't ever heard, accept the conclusion from YOU that their guitar skills are "subpar"?

So, basically nothing you are saying here makes the slightest bit of sense.

Quote
dcba

Quote
Midnight Toker
Download 1981 "Little T&A" on youtube,then download the same song 2006. The defense rests.

To below that's puching below the belt... Take 2 perfs of any artist that are separated by 25 years and you'll notice a decline. Imho it'd wiser and more revelant compare tings era by era.

The period that goes from 2002 to 2007 is a Stones era fo ex.

I think it is fair to compare two different eras, why not? The problem is not that the Stones have declined (they obviously have, especially as a recording act), it's that some people are in denial about that. They can't imagine living without world tours, and they equate any legitimate discussion or criticism of the band with some kind of disloyalty or even "hatred", as evidenced by threads like this one.

Quote
71Tele

Quote
flilflam
The problem with most Keith haters is quite simple. There are way too many amateur medical doctors out there who seem perfectly comfortable diagnosing brain damage from afar, with no formal training at all. And I forgot to mention all the amateur arthritis experts and alcohol abuse experts, once again with no medical training at all. I wrote a thread called Keith Bashers are Frustrated Musicians a few months ago. Needless to say, this was met with anger because some amateur musicians were unabe to accept that their guitar skills were sub par.

I have said this before and will say it again. Keith's guitar skills should be judged by the studio work only. I was very pleased with the musicianship on A Bigger Bang. No one will remember a mediocre stage performance. We will always have the CD's and vinyl records.

yes, we remember your thread. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now. And it has nothing to do with anyone's anger:

1. To say you must be a frustrated musician because you simply report the observation that Keith was playing very poorly is complete crap. Why? It is just an observation, and although there are many guitarists here, one doesn't have to be one to make that observation.

2. You said Keith should only be judged on studio work. This makes absolutely no sense. When what you are "selling" as a professional musical act is your show, and charging top prices for it, how can the quality of the performance be exempted from judgment?

3. Why should anyone you don't know, haven't ever met, or whose playing you haven't ever heard, accept the conclusion from YOU that their guitar skills are "subpar"?

So, basically nothing you are saying here makes the slightest bit of sense.

i agree, tele. and if there's any sense of anger going on here it's the anger of fans responding to perfectly sensical posts about keith and the stones. sometimes i think some folks have trouble separating "critical" posts about the band as not being a criticisms of them personally....or something. fascinating to observe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-03 17:19 by StonesTod.

Quote
Rocky Dijon
The real question is whether or not Don McLean is a Keith-hater based on the lyrics of "American Pie." Let's not lose our focus, people.

He's a Mick-hater. His hands 'were clenched in fists of rage', dont forget.

The bastard.

Quote
flilflam
I have said this before and will say it again. Keith's guitar skills should be judged by the studio work only. I was very pleased with the musicianship on A Bigger Bang. No one will remember a mediocre stage performance. We will always have the CD's and vinyl records.

Fair enough. Charge the price of a CD the next time they perform live then, and everyone will be happy.

Quote
Gazza

Quote
Rocky Dijon
The real question is whether or not Don McLean is a Keith-hater based on the lyrics of "American Pie." Let's not lose our focus, people.

He's a Mick-hater. His hands 'were clenched in fists of rage', dont forget.

The bastard.

OK. I really am sorry I started this American Pie debate. Mea culpa, mea culpa...
But all I was trying to say about that song was that it had a point of view, and that Jagger was mentioned (not by name of course) among the contemporary artists the singer seemed particularly bothered about. I didn't write the damn song, but I have gotten a lot of sh*t about this. It'll teach me to stay out of threads about artists I don't give a crap about it I suppose...

Quote
Gazza

Quote
flilflam
I have said this before and will say it again. Keith's guitar skills should be judged by the studio work only. I was very pleased with the musicianship on A Bigger Bang. No one will remember a mediocre stage performance. We will always have the CD's and vinyl records.

Fair enough. Charge the price of a CD the next time they perform live then, and everyone will be happy.

don't say that! watch the exponential increase in cd costs now!! $450 for a single disc??? is that an on-disc experience or something?

Quote
JumpingKentFlash
Well, he didn't say anything like not picking up a guitar in a long time, let alone years.

The video is here: [www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com]


And I did a transcript of the bit about guitar practice:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jimmy Fallon:
Do you ever get rusty? Do you ever not like play the guitar for months?

Keith Richards:
Actually you're looking at a very rusty Keith Richards right now.

Jimmy Fallon:
No, are you?

Keith Richards:
Yeah, I do have to do some practice, so don't pull me up (Points to the house band).

Jimmy Fallon:
So you get like.... You need a little....

Keith Richards:
If you've been on the road for two years, and then suddenly you stop. So you say "Just put the axe away for a little bit", and then you say "I've really gotta catch up man". So at the moment I'm doing a lot of catch-up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disregarding that this interview is almost a year old and all that, Keith merely said that he put the guitar away for a little bit and that he's doing some catch-up, and lastly that he's very rusty. The worst part of it is that it's so typical for many people on this forum (And you know who you are) to take a mouse and make it into an elephant.

I hope I've set the record straight for some people with this post.

Keith Richards did not say that he hasn't picked up a guitar for years!!!!




So there.....

Patti said in an interview a year or so ago that after she took ill, he got rid of the basement studio in their home. I may be paraphrasing here as I dont have the interview handy, but she pretty much indicated that around this time Keith simply stopped everything, music-wise.

I think he's made one public performance since August 2007 (a couple of songs with The Crickets) and the amount of studio material recorded and released in that time basically consists of about two or three cameos.

He also said in an interview last year that he'd broken a finger some months earlier and as a result hadn't played the guitar since. Even if we take interviews at face value (which isnt always a good idea), Keith's NOT ever going to admit in public to not picking up a guitar for years even if that was the case.

I think, all things considered, that everything points to him being pretty inactive for various reasons, most of them, it has to be said, completely understandable.

Quote
Gazza
I think, all things considered, that everything points to him being pretty inactive for various reasons, most of them, it has to be said, completely understandable.

perhaps - but can you imagine in his prime, even with life-altering events around him, that he would stop playing altogether? there was a time where you hardly separate the man from the guitar. i think these life events, although certainly involved in his lack of playing, don't fully explain the situation.

Quote
JumpingKentFlash
As you say, talk is cheap. We can't know if he's better or worse right now, but consider Daniel Day-Lewis who dropped acting for 5 years to make shoes in Italy. He came back and kicked ass in Gangs Of New York. Why do you always have to judge on the negative side of things? Is it because you want to be happily surprised if you think he actually does play better in 2012? Can't you get on the team for a little bit?

I don't know if you addressed the questions personally for me, or are you talking in general (using the English passive) but I as far this particual case go I can't help but seeing the glass half empty, not half full. Keith's playing has degenerated quite a lot - even dramatically sometimes - from the late 90's, from tour to tour (BRIDGES TO BABYLON -> LICKS TOUR -> A BIGGER BANG TOUR), and I think it is mostly to do with physical things (the arthisis of his fingers). He has been able to cope with it, and reform his playing style to suit to his limitations, but like mentioned here, he is a shadow of his past (which is a pain to witness sometimes). So it is very difficult for me to believe that he might be better next time, or even making a sudden recovery. But of course, miracles happen sometimes...

I think as a guitar player Keith cannot get any worse as he was during A BIGGER BANG TOUR in order to maintain any kind of credibility as a public performer. Just watch SHINE A LIGHT; he is really hitting the borders of reasonable and tolerable playing there. I am afraid that by now - four years of that - we might have entered the stage when the borders have been passed and left behind, and there is no return. This is just my feeling, nothing else. This is what my brains say, not my heart. I seriously think that Keith's condition might be the biggest issue The Stones are confronting as far the tour goes.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-03 17:57 by Doxa.

Keith himself knows his problems. Charlie mentioned in an interview previously published here on the board, that Keith during the last tour was about to give up playing on the tour beucase of pain in his fingers - that tells a lot for a person that loves to play guitar and being on tour.

There have been talks about somehow a treatment to his artritis problems - how much really has happened I don't know. Maybe somebody can tell.

perhaps keith should take some lessons from this guy:

To continue a bit of my speculation (which it really is).

The way I see Keith's talk of "rustiness" and "removing the studio out from his basement" I see there more tragedy and pain behind the curtains than usually is taken to be. It is not just a question of being "rusty". That is the case with bloody guys like Mick Taylor who is said to not rehearse at all at home, and that's why he is a bit "rusty" when starts a tour. Or with Ronnie Wood who might not be either the most lutherian guy in working ethics. You can say to those guys that: "shit men, collect yourselves! Leave the bottle (for a moment) now, and move your arse to rehearse room to work out your chops and do it properly now, for god sake. When you hit the stage be sure you are ready then". But you cannot say that to the man whose hands are hurting when he touches the guitar strings. The very hands that doesn't perhaps folow he order of the will anymore. What a hell can the man do in a situation like that? For a natural born player like Keith who breathes licks that must be horrible.

We have been talking here lately of Taylor's recent condition, of Clapton's recent condition, of Ronnie's - and if they are not like they used to be. Yeah, they are not. Bloody old guys. But when we talk about Keith we are in a different scale altogether. what Ronnie and Taylor did during the Stu gig - quite ordinary blues playing - sounded almost Hendrix-like quality stuff compared to the guitar playing we are used to in recent years with The Stones.

To me it's a tragedy.

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-03 19:13 by Doxa.

if Richards sings he s gettin better and better..like this old blues and country...heroes of his



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-03 18:36 by rooster.

Quote
rooster
while if Richards sings he s gettin better and better..like this old blues and country...heroes of his

Most likely Keith has used vocals as his way of expression more profoundly since getting difficulties with the guitar.

By contrast, the much praised "Little T&A" from the 1981/82 was a kind of struggle in vocalwise a the time... (I loved it any case, but he was more keen on leading the band with his guitar than concentrating on the vocal expression).

- Doxa

Quote
Doxa

Quote
rooster
while if Richards sings he s gettin better and better..like this old blues and country...heroes of his

Most likely Keith has used vocals as his way of expression more profoundly since getting difficulties with the guitar.

By contrast, the much praised "Little T&A" from the 1981/82 was a kind of struggle in vocalwise a the time... (I loved it any case, but he was more keen on leading the band with his guitar than concentrating on the vocal expression).

- Doxa

Hey..Dox...you remember the Leeds 82 show?....Jagger joined Keith on stage to sing Little T&A....thats so moving!...but by the by...i really-do think-his voca-is gettin so much better(this place is empty is ace!)....just let that lost guitar hero jeff beck join the group(he almost did in 75}or maybe better some unknown Red Devils guy! sure it will work and we get more keith songs(lord knows im only dreaming) cheers!

Quote
rooster
Hey..Dox...you remember the Leeds 82 show?....Jagger joined Keith on stage to sing Little T&A....thats so moving!..

So was this the last time Mick sang on a Keith song ?

To 71Tele, I do not regret the "American Pie" thread (which was supposed to be a "Vincent" thread). It is my version of showing the blade. When things get stirred up in any thread, there is no better remedy than bringing up Don McLean plus it eggs StonesTod on to say something funny. It's like offering (forgive me) pie to people that are arguing. Everyone stops to eat it.

My personal favorite was Jack Flash sitting on the candle stick being a reference to Jagger enjoying gay sex. That was as good as it will ever get.

Quote
Edith Grove

Quote
rooster
Hey..Dox...you remember the Leeds 82 show?....Jagger joined Keith on stage to sing Little T&A....thats so moving!..

So was this the last time Mick sang on a Keith song ?

yeah

Quote
rooster

Quote
Doxa

Quote
rooster
while if Richards sings he s gettin better and better..like this old blues and country...heroes of his

Most likely Keith has used vocals as his way of expression more profoundly since getting difficulties with the guitar.

By contrast, the much praised "Little T&A" from the 1981/82 was a kind of struggle in vocalwise a the time... (I loved it any case, but he was more keen on leading the band with his guitar than concentrating on the vocal expression).

- Doxa

Hey..Dox...you remember the Leeds 82 show?....Jagger joined Keith on stage to sing Little T&A....thats so moving!...but by the by...i really-do think-his voca-is gettin so much better(this place is empty is ace!)....just let that lost guitar hero jeff beck join the group(he almost did in 75}or maybe better some unknown Red Devils guy! sure it will work and we get more keith songs(lord knows im only dreaming) cheers!

I didn't know that! I though the infamous (rumoured) contract was already then on - that Jagger needs to stay out of stage while keith do his solo number...

- Doxa

Quote
Rocky Dijon
To 71Tele, I do not regret the "American Pie" thread (which was supposed to be a "Vincent" thread). It is my version of showing the blade. When things get stirred up in any thread, there is no better remedy than bringing up Don McLean plus it eggs StonesTod on to say something funny. It's like offering (forgive me) pie to people that are arguing. Everyone stops to eat it.

My personal favorite was Jack Flash sitting on the candle stick being a reference to Jagger enjoying gay sex. That was as good as it will ever get.

Yeah, that was a good one...But I feel somewhat burned, as I don't think my original comments were understood by many (or maybe I didn't communicate them very well). But hey, "fire is the devil's only friend", right?

Go check it out man!!....and with so many side show guys on stage..why not try and go with Beck( i know he is a diffilcult guy!}

For some reason about 20 years ago I guess Keith turned into some kind of egomaniac . Years ago he always seemd to be a kind of shy and unassuming sort. Then he just got this huge ego and started to believe all of hispress or something. His distain for Jagger has been obvious for a verylong time. I think he is very jealous of Jagger and it just seems to pur out of him at times. I have seen him get very pissed at hom on stage for no apparent reason. Check out the B stage of the MSG show and he is just furious at him for lord knows what.
Anyway the dude was great in his day and he justs needs to let it rest and keep his disagreements with everyone out of a book and his ego locked in a closet somewhere.It really makes him look like a small person with the yapping he does . One final thought is I mean really does anything any of these so called celebrites say really mean anything. I personally laugh at how seriously they take themselves. Like there word is gospel. It isn't

Pretty sure Keith being pissed off at Mick at MSG 2003 B-stage is because he thinks Mick's amp is up too loud when he tries the first chords of "When the Whip Comes Down."

That volume issue has been a recurring sore point between them ever since Keith heard Mick's rhythm guitar on the playback to "Sway" in 1970. I don't think Mick ever particularly cares if Keith thinks he's too loud in the mix.

Remember Hampton '81 when Mick gets pissed at Keith for missing his backing vocals? They're much alike in that respect. The two of them seem equally befuddled at Ronnie's solo on "Miss You" at Atlantic City '89. My favorite moment like this is in the "She's So Cold" music video when Ronnie glances at Keith who seems ridiculously put out by it for no apparent reason.

Quote
71Tele

Quote
Gazza

Quote
Rocky Dijon
The real question is whether or not Don McLean is a Keith-hater based on the lyrics of "American Pie." Let's not lose our focus, people.

He's a Mick-hater. His hands 'were clenched in fists of rage', dont forget.

The bastard.

OK. I really am sorry I started this American Pie debate. Mea culpa, mea culpa...
But all I was trying to say about that song was that it had a point of view, and that Jagger was mentioned (not by name of course) among the contemporary artists the singer seemed particularly bothered about. I didn't write the damn song, but I have gotten a lot of sh*t about this. It'll teach me to stay out of threads about artists I don't give a crap about it I suppose...

er..I was taking the piss, Tele. Its a great song. One of the greatest ever written in fact.

Quote
rooster

Quote
Edith Grove

Quote
rooster
Hey..Dox...you remember the Leeds 82 show?....Jagger joined Keith on stage to sing Little T&A....thats so moving!..

So was this the last time Mick sang on a Keith song ?

yeah

Didnt they do 'Connection' together at the Paradiso in 1995?

Quote
mtaylor
Keith himself knows his problems. Charlie mentioned in an interview previously published here on the board, that Keith during the last tour was about to give up playing on the tour beucase of pain in his fingers - that tells a lot for a person that loves to play guitar and being on tour.

There have been talks about somehow a treatment to his artritis problems - how much really has happened I don't know. Maybe somebody can tell.

I think that 'interview' was pretty much written off as being made up, was it not?

He more or less suggested the band was done as well in the same 'interview', yet amazingly none of the rest of the several French journalists who were supposedly present saw fit to report it nor did the world's media pick up on it.

Quote
ineedadrink
it's interesting that there's a huge amount of live stuff from the stones' recent performances but hardly anything from when they were at the top of their game years ago.

Two simple reasons for that

1) Home tape recorders are more common now and make better recordings

2) They play to far bigger audiences. If they're playing to 3,000 people or 60,000 people, its quite obvious which of the two is more likely to be recorded

Strangely enough, the ABB tour is the most poorly documented tour the Stones have done in decades. Usually you'd expect in excess of 95-98% of the shows to have been circulated. There must be about 20% of the shows on the last tour which have never circulated. That suggests to me that the sort of hardcore fans who previously would have attended Stones shows are voting with their feet or wallets.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-03 20:40 by Gazza.