i never owned a scooter, even as a child

And what is sad is that by the time they finally did get to adding it in shows is when they no longer had the fire in them as a band that the song really needs.

Nice to see live finally, but would be much better if played with passion and fire.

Quote
timbernardis
a phrase for the ages: "guitar wankery" -- gotta love it, gotta remember it, and gotta use it again!!!

The band that IS or WAS into heavy guitar wankery - the Grateful Bore. Actually not so, as it was appropriate in their case, and best listened to whilst stoned on Thai weed.


p

aside from taylor, it would be wankery with the stones. when musicians who have the sensibilities and capabilities to play solos that tell stories - and i would argue that garcia, betts, duane allman, jimi hendrix (and the list goes on and on) have it - it can often be mind-blowing. it's a question of knowing your strengths and weaknesses - ronnie and keith are really not soloists in the traditional sense, so it's never a good idea for them to go off in this direction. taylor was and is a capable soloist, so his style and abilities always ran counter to the stones' basic framework....it was a marriage destined for divorce from the get-go....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-04-08 20:48 by StonesTod.

I'm not sure I could put Jerry Garcia into the great soloists category...and only mind-blowing when the listener is stoned. I saw him twice with his own band in 1978 and 1979, and twice with the Dead in the early 80s. He did zero for me, but the other 15,000 people that were tripping thought he was god. He did solo a lot, but it went nowhere and was usually struggling to stay in tune.

But I do agree with your other choices, and that Ronnie and Keith are not really soloists, especially now. They don't carry the band in any direction so much as just provide some fill. Keith is posing, and Ronnie just looks horribly uncomfortable soloing, and is anything but fluid or powerful. But they do seem to be having fun. I guess that is where the band is.

Why was CYHMK dropped from the 1972 tour set? What are you talking about? From the evidence that circulates among collectors it was played just as many times in 1972 as it was in 1971. In fact, I believe it was played as many times in 1971 as it was on every tour until LICKS. That song is a friggin' anti-War Horse.

It was played in concert a couple of times in 1971 (according to a few people in the band > Wyman,plus a couple others) and then not again in public until 2002. It was rehearsed other times,in the early '70's and mid to late '90's for examples.

Just because they may have rehearsed it in '72,that doesn't mean there is proof that they wanted it to be a part of the 1972 shows.They rehearsed IORR for the 1978 tour but didn't play it again until 1989 if you don't count Live Aid and stuff like that from the mid '80's. We all know that they could have played IORR in '78 but,they did not want to despite rehearsing it.That's just one example.

Quote
buffalo7478
I'm not sure I could put Jerry Garcia into the great soloists category...and only mind-blowing when the listener is stoned.

whatever

Quote
Winning Ugly VXII
It was played in concert a couple of times in 1971 (according to a few people in the band > Wyman,plus a couple others) and then not again in public until 2002. It was rehearsed other times,in the early '70's and mid to late '90's for examples.

Just because they may have rehearsed it in '72,that doesn't mean there is proof that they wanted it to be a part of the 1972 shows.They rehearsed IORR for the 1978 tour but didn't play it again until 1989 if you don't count Live Aid and stuff like that from the mid '80's. We all know that they could have played IORR in '78 but,they did not want to despite rehearsing it.That's just one example.

i still have doubts about the veracity of the live '71 reports. wyman's memory isn't fail-proof....he also contends they did johnny b. goode...and there's not other verifiable proof of that....

He also wrote about how unfortunate it was that Taj Mahal couldn't make it to the taping of ROCK 'N' ROLL CIRCUS.

Quote
Rocky Dijon
He also wrote about how unfortunate it was that Taj Mahal couldn't make it to the taping of ROCK 'N' ROLL CIRCUS.

Where was that written ?
As far as I know he wrote that Taj Mahal and Johnny Cash (beside others)
were invited but Johnny didn´t show up.
A picture of Taj Mahal is included in his Rolling With The Stones book as well.

STONE ALONE.

Quote

I'm not sure I could put Jerry Garcia into the great soloists category...and only mind-blowing when the listener is stoned. I saw him twice with his own band in 1978 and 1979, and twice with the Dead in the early 80s. He did zero for me, but the other 15,000 people that were tripping thought he was god. He did solo a lot, but it went nowhere and was usually struggling to stay in tune.

Amen, brother. I saw the Dead 5 times while Jerry was still with them...4 times tripping and the last time not tripping. The shows that I saw while tripping I really enjoyed, the show I saw straight (except for some ganga, of course) I found quite boring. (just FYI, I also saw the Dead after Jerry passed away, with Warren Haynes filling in, and that was great. Warren is a great soloist).

As far as CYHMK goes, I thought that the Stones nailed it on the '02 tour. Ronnie played Mick T's part just about note-for-note, and Bobby Keys pretty much replicated his solos note-for-note as well. Sure, it didn't have the spontaneity of the studio version, but it was great just the same. Glad that I finally got to hear it live.

I'm no expert on Stones' bootlegs, but it seems to me that they barely ever played this one back in the day - probably because the loose, jamming spirit of the improv'ed 2nd half of the song is hard to recreate, and structurally quite different from most Stones' tunes.

wood played taylor note-for-note? ha. there's at least 2 major probs with that assertion....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-04-09 21:29 by T&A.

Quote
T&A

Quote
Winning Ugly VXII
It was played in concert a couple of times in 1971 (according to a few people in the band > Wyman,plus a couple others) and then not again in public until 2002. It was rehearsed other times,in the early '70's and mid to late '90's for examples.

Just because they may have rehearsed it in '72,that doesn't mean there is proof that they wanted it to be a part of the 1972 shows.They rehearsed IORR for the 1978 tour but didn't play it again until 1989 if you don't count Live Aid and stuff like that from the mid '80's. We all know that they could have played IORR in '78 but,they did not want to despite rehearsing it.That's just one example.

i still have doubts about the veracity of the live '71 reports. wyman's memory isn't fail-proof....he also contends they did johnny b. goode...and there's not other verifiable proof of that....

I have "An Unauthorized Biography" of David Dalton who accompanied them on the 1971 Britain tour. There are complete setlists and variations in the report and how the songs were received: f.e. Nobody in the audience could make something of Wild Horses or: Satisfaction always fooling the audience (That's why this version of that "warhorse" is my favourite one!). Lots of interesting insights even suggesting to do Peggy Sue as an encore; btw encores: never done since club days or the like as mentioned.
There is no word of CYHMK and as it's also not listed in the usual sources, I doubt that it was played, no matter what Bill remembers.
Regarding 1972 there is no word of the song but several songs of Exile dropped quite soon after tour start: Ventilator Blues, Loving Cup otr Torn And Frayed.

Quote

wood played taylor note-for-note? ha. there's at least major probs with that assertion....

Well I did qualify that statement by saying "just about". I prefer Mick T's playing, but Woody's no slouch.

I noticed in Shine A Light, that on the older songs Woody was often playing Keef's parts, and Keef was sort of playing Brian's (or more often the case, just making up his own new parts to the old songs).

Well T&A, I have seen Taylor play this, and Wood multiple times. I have to say, there were occasions Wood strayed, but never garishly, in attempts to put his own brand on what is, in effect, supposed to be the RNR version of a jazz solo, an up to the minute SPONTANEAOUS solo sending out a feeling. But there were other nights that if you closed your eyes and opened your ears without preconcieved notion of ability, Wood came closer to what was immortalized in the studio then anything I have heard by anyone else at any other time, Mr. Taylor included.

i don't prefer one over the other - they are from completely two different schools of guitar playing - and i like both schools. therein lie the probs when woody tries to ape a taylor solo. 1) a solo isn't meant to be copied...it's supposed to be an extemporaneous statement. 2) woody really isn't a soloist and he couldn't copy a taylor solo to save his soul, so why he tries to (or why the band hierarchy wants him to) is beyond me....again, he's a fish out of water trying to tread taylor's waters....

Quote
T&A
wood played taylor note-for-note? ha. there's at least major probs with that assertion....

i agree 100%,i saw the stones do cyhmk in hartford 2002 and ronnie channeled mick taylor's vibe in the begining of the solo and then went on hos own merry way with the solo. ronnie is not gonna RIPOFF mick taylor's solo note for note because that's beneath him. why? because ronnie wants to put his own stamp on the solo ,but he begins in the same place as mick taylor did .another example when the stones did SWAY in foxboro 2006 and giants stadium 2006. ronnie starts the solo in the same place as mick taylor did then incorporates his own stamp on the solo .ronnie is to aware of mick taylor's style and signature of the songs because that's his job to know this stuff .and i dont really think it would go over to well to be doing note for note RIPOFFS of mick taylor's guitar solos

Quote
kahoosier
Well T&A, I have seen Taylor play this, and Wood multiple times. I have to say, there were occasions Wood strayed, but never garishly, in attempts to put his own brand on what is, in effect, supposed to be the RNR version of a jazz solo, an up to the minute SPONTANEAOUS solo sending out a feeling. But there were other nights that if you closed your eyes and opened your ears without preconcieved notion of ability, Wood came closer to what was immortalized in the studio then anything I have heard by anyone else at any other time, Mr. Taylor included.

i've heard most of the versions of CYHMK from the Licks tour, and never once did I think that Woody's solo was even slightly reminiscient of Taylor's studio version....and I also say that I've never heard Taylor himself try to replicate it, either...as it should be....

Quote
The Greek

Quote
T&A
wood played taylor note-for-note? ha. there's at least major probs with that assertion....

i agree 100%,i saw the stones do cyhmk in hartford 2002 and ronnie channeled mick taylor's vibe in the begining of the solo and then went on hos own merry way with the solo. ronnie is not gonna RIPOFF mick taylor's solo note for note because that's beneath him. why? because ronnie wants to put his own stamp on the solo ,but he begins in the same place as mick taylor did .another example when the stones did SWAY in foxboro 2006 and giants stadium 2006. ronnie starts the solo in the same place as mick taylor did then incorporates his own stamp on the solo .ronnie is to aware of mick taylor's style and signature of the songs because that's his job to know this stuff .and i dont really think it would go over to well to be doing note for note RIPOFFS of mick taylor's guitar solos

we obviously hear things very differently....no crime in that....

Quote
T&A

Quote
The Greek

Quote
T&A
wood played taylor note-for-note? ha. there's at least major probs with that assertion....

i agree 100%,i saw the stones do cyhmk in hartford 2002 and ronnie channeled mick taylor's vibe in the begining of the solo and then went on hos own merry way with the solo. ronnie is not gonna RIPOFF mick taylor's solo note for note because that's beneath him. why? because ronnie wants to put his own stamp on the solo ,but he begins in the same place as mick taylor did .another example when the stones did SWAY in foxboro 2006 and giants stadium 2006. ronnie starts the solo in the same place as mick taylor did then incorporates his own stamp on the solo .ronnie is to aware of mick taylor's style and signature of the songs because that's his job to know this stuff .and i dont really think it would go over to well to be doing note for note RIPOFFS of mick taylor's guitar solos

we obviously hear things very differently....no crime in that....

so you dont think that the couple notes that ronnie plays in the start of the solo do not vibe taylor?

i think he is completely trying to ape taylor, yeah. that's the problem. he sounds ridiculous trying to...it would be like keith trying to cop a hendrix solo or something. why bother even trying.

Quote
T&A
i think he is completely trying to ape taylor, yeah. that's the problem. he sounds ridiculous trying to...it would be like keith trying to cop a hendrix solo or something. why bother even trying.

i totally understand now where you are coming from and have to agree .

Quote
T&A
i don't prefer one over the other - they are from completely two different schools of guitar playing - and i like both schools. therein lie the probs when woody tries to ape a taylor solo. 1) a solo isn't meant to be copied...it's supposed to be an extemporaneous statement. 2) woody really isn't a soloist and he couldn't copy a taylor solo to save his soul, so why he tries to (or why the band hierarchy wants him to) is beyond me....again, he's a fish out of water trying to tread taylor's waters....

I don't know what school Ron is coming from..

can't watch that from this location - but if it's the dreaded roseland version, as I suspect - it's one of the lowest moments in ron's time with the band, imo....the term "noise" was given new meaning....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-04-09 22:30 by T&A.

Quote
T&A
can't watch that from this location - but if it's the dreaded roseland version, as I suspect - it's one of the lowest moment's in ron's time with the band, imo....

It's the best I could find.

<<but if it's the dreaded roseland version, as I suspect>>

The Youtube clip is the Four Flicks version.

You're right about the Roseland rendition, though. Pretty horrible.

maybe a silly notion, but i think the stones should have just eschewed the whole woody solo on this - the bobby and mick solos were often done very nicely...could have ended there and spared us the embarrassment....

Jeez, guys, Woody ain't THAT bad. The solo's just the friggin' pentatonic minor with some Dorian mode licks mixed in, it ain't like its an Allen Holdsworth of John McLaughlin solo or somethin'...

You guys talk like Woody can't play at all. Granted his style is quite different from Mick T's, but c'mon IT'S ONLY ROCK N' ROLL!!!! If you're going to over analyze every phrase of a solo instead of rock to the groove they're laying down, then you're missing the whole point of the Stones' music!

...I'm just sayin'.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-04-09 23:09 by Keefan.

i missed the point again. dammit. i need to go back and listen to that harry nilsson album....