LieB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey vancouver --
>
> Tell us more about the files you uploaded. I'm
> listening to Parachute Woman now and it sounds
> awesome. Where did you get them from? Are they
> really at the Marquee in December '68, or are they
> from the Circus? Is there a lossless (non-mp3)
> version available some way?
>
> Many questions, but I'd love to get them answered.
> Thanks a lot!


theyre rehearsals for the Circus show - done just before the actual live performance on 12th December

The Marquee rehearsals were a week earlier

One point I actually missed was that some of these 'hoarding' collectors don't circulate their stuff because if something 'rare' that they got ends up being bootlegged and enters wider circulation, their connection to that rare stuff is then cut off for not being able to keep their word.

As for the glitchy b/w work print of Rock and Roll Circus, that, indeed, was done intentionally to whomever was to receive it initially to dissaude them from bootlegging it. Obviously it didn't stop them.

Many collectors will 'mark' their wares so that they can actually trace exactly who breeched the trade agreement and cut them off in the future. They'll add a brief edit or cut the video or audio at a certain point and that copy is forever fingerprinted.

Sounds a bit far fetched to some, but it is indeed true. I know collectors who can tell you the path something once ultra-rare has taken to getting into wider circulation.

J

Dont blame us, as Kris Kristoferson once said, "Blame it on the Stones..."

JR



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-10-20 04:06 by stone-relics.

JMARKO, collecting can sometomes become bit obsessive right? those collectors mark their stuff like it is their own property but in fact the dont legally own it, they also have this stuff through dark channels. sometimes I believe some of them think theyre god but they forget its only rock n roll and life is too short to sit on stuff and protect it like own possession which it isnt. must be guys with a mental problem who need this as a substitute for something else that is missing in their lives.

these tracks are from the old dbl boot.."gravestones/rape of the vaults "

that's all i got.................

One of the ultimate "markers" of wares that they had acquired or in this case illicitly taped was the late, great Mike Millard who taped a load of shows in the mid '70's at the L.A. Forum. This included nearly all the Stones, Zep and Floyd shows and owners of many Stones L.A. '75 shows are the beneficiaries of this guy's unintentional largess.

He was so obsessive about his hobby/ pursuit whatever that he used the best available equipment and actually housed it all in a wheelchair,in which he would adopt the guise of invalid ensuring that some kind soul would gently wheel him to the front of the venue.

The resulting recordings were spectacular but like many posters here the thought of anyone gaining any kind of commercial advancement through his illicit activities was so utterly repugnant to him that as J MARKO indicates everytime he traded a tape he did put little "markers" on them so that he would have some idea where the source was.

The trouble is once a lot of this stuff is out it eventually seeps into the wider circles of collectors, there are now innumerable people who have copies of rare material that I sourced and traded with one or two impeccable traders, it was added to their lists and I benefitted from their equally fantastic material sourced from similar trades.

The people I did trade with have all with varying degrees of resignation, ire, whatever seen their material end up on various bootlegged labels.

What really pisses a lot of them off is the degradation of this material, at least in terms of DVD authoring insomuch as frequently fantastic quality video and audio being subject to the near vandalism of compression by these self same bootleggers with the compromise in quality that results.

But Hey Ho what the hell, at the end of the day you just get on with all the rest of the concerns of life.

Or in the case of the late Mr Millard not... as he sadly topped himself, when the awful nerdish mundanity of life in his bedroom still living in the family home with his old Mum became too much.

P.S. I still think that as regards the Mk1 cutting copy of "Rock in Roll Circus"
the markers were how shall I put it?

A little excessive to the point of rendering the whole tape as an exercise in "Hey Look what I've got in my collection - pity you can't see it"

... kind of thing.

J if you've seen this thing you'll know what I mean.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-10-20 15:59 by mikey.

Alimente:

You can call it whatever you see fit (as I would call your response something along the lines of sour grapes). As for those collectors obtaining their stuff illegally, that simply is not true in a significant portion of the cases.

What is most often the case is some collector has lent or generously given a copy to someone, in a trade or otherwise, and has accepted their word that they will not distribute it, which the second party subsequently values as highly as dog shit and turns around and sells or distributes the material for their own profit or ego.

What's worse, the scurrolous cad's reputation is none-the-worse for it, but the original collector then gets tagged as a bootlegger (and there is a STRONG differentiation in this world, trust me) and potentially loses his network because of said cad's lack of concern for others.

It is this self-serving 'music is for the people' attitude of sharing everything (which, in MY book, is also just another ego-driven attitude: "hey, look at me, I'm SHARING.") that can flush years of hard work down the toilet for some 'moral' crusade against the very individuals who have probably loosened up most of the things you've heard and collected in the first place.

Additionally, if you or anyone else has ever spent so much as a penny toward obtaining any bootleg material -- and, yes, that includes buying blanks -- according to your definition, you are knowingly purchasing stolen/illegal property and are just as guilty of possessing the same 'ailment' as they do, and are also part of the problem.

Let me put it to anyone this way:

Some bloke approaches you at a party after a concert in some large metropolitan city and says he's heard you like Stones stuff and that you've got a good collection. He knows you can appreciate and dig this stuff, so he's going to offer you, in some simple trades, stuff you've never heard before or, hell, didn't even know EXISTED. This bloke came across a carton of discarded master tapes outside of Olympic studios, in the dumpster, and lo and behold it had stacks of Stones master reels that include alternate takes and mixes of YOUR favortie albums. He'll give you Cds of the stuff, and you can check it out and have proof that they are legit before anything goes down. He'll give you two hours of stuff for the first trade and will continue to give you more if you can supply him with any live shows from 1989 and 1994 because he digs that era, or if you can find any Indigo Girls boots, because he really doesn't actively collect anymore and likes to stay away from the internet.

The only catch is, you can't trade or copy the stuff for anyone else, and if he finds that you did, you don't get any more.

What do you do?

And don't even TRY to tell me you'd copy the stuff because you wouldn't.

And, no, the terms of that trade are no as outrageously unlikely as you would think.


MIKEY: I have seen the version. I can see why you would feel that way, but it really was a security measure and, apprently, has proven itself to be of sound reason as the jerk did in fact turn around and distribute the video. It is highly unwatchable -- the Stones' portion at least.

J

JMARKO, I understand what you say. if I get a rare tape and be asked not to trade it, I dont trade it. this is a matter of honesty. however I dont even play tape to others or dont even mention that I have it. so I dont get in trouble, other fans are not hassling me, so fine with me. no is jealous at me. indeed I have some stuff not circulating. some were taped by friends with great effort, two or three mics at shows at different locations and then mixed together to give great sound quality. those friends - just an example - dont want their tapes made with great effort and time consuming mixing ending on boot cds. I understand their intentions so I agree. but if I give tapes out, I receive no further tapes from them. then there is guy who works for radio station and has contacts to lots of other radio stations in world. he went to great effort to get many broadcasts in their original uncut master format, dating back to the 60's. this includes many bands, but also Stones stuff which is not circulating at all or circulating in shite or bad quality only. he gives me this tapes under promise I dont circulate them. he fears that he risks his job when material appears bootlegged big time. I respect him and his fears, so I dont circulate stuff. but then there are others I have met who try to make themselves bigger than others by having something which is rare. they play tapes to you but dont give out and if you ask why you get a big grin in return. I ceased contact with collectors like this, because those in my opinion have mental problems and try to fill hole in life with presenting something which is exclusive to them to make themselves bigger and more important. those type of guys I meant, not the collectors that cannot give tape out because of promise or fear to lose contact if they do.

Fascinating debate here as it really goes to the heart of collecting. I mean I'm sure that all of us are the net beneficiaries of stuff that we've sourced from a lot of hard graft and dedication to the cause.

I take both J.Marko's point and Alimente's, I can really empathise with what they're both saying.

Although and before we get too proscriptive about the ethics issue which is being raised here. It has to be said that if you really are going to respect the corporate (important word in this context) desires of the band whose product is engulfing much of your current storage space then the cold blunt truth is that you shouldn't have any of this stuff in your collection and receiving material from people close to or worse still part of the band itself could be viewed as a major betrayal. i.e. the slightly dissaffected member of the road crew - whatever that offers material in exchange for stuff that he collects has breached the contract of trust that he enjoys with said band unless (and this is highly unlikely) he has the authorisation of the band and other interested parties to make the offer of that trade. In which case it wouldn't need to be secret.

So we're all jerks... albeit to varying extents.

Apart from those amongst us that just wouldn't touch material that isn't officially sanctioned by either the band and it's represenatives or at least the current holders of the copyright of said material.

Which in the case of the Stones would free up a lot of shelf space for many of us.

Here's some footage of the NME show, no sound though. I would love to hear rehearsals for the RnR circus. Anyone still have them?

NME 68

Let's face it; the future as a Rolling Stone is very uncertain

BTW: The SFTD clip from the David Frost show was released a few years ago on the absoulut fantastic 2 x 2 DVD bootleg "50 Years On Video". IMO the best set of promos etc. available.

JAMRKO,have you seen or got the orginal promo of HONKY TONK WOMEN when it came out in 1969 with MICK JAGGER wearing a cut out t.shirt and studs around his neck BBC have lost that recording,one of the best promo of the stones.Keep rocking.