Yeah, thanks to all for a very interesting thread. ANd please keep posting, I had forgot about the rehearsal for the circus. And never thought of demos of Midnight rambler or Gimmie Shelter. Just that one, with Keith on lead vocal,

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The tape is not in circulation for any number of reasons. First and foremost because whoever rightfully owns it has not decided to do anything with it, or possibly doesn't even know they have what they have.

And when you decide to use footage like that there are a myriad of clearances you have to go through. If Jagger doesn't like the way his hair looks he can say 'no,' and that's that. Or ABKCO can decide they want $250,000 dollars per minute of use of the footage. Remember, the Stones don't fully own ANY of the songs in that 68 NME bit.

A similar dilemna recently occurred with the rematser of the Ziggy Stardust live film onto DVD. Jeff Beck still did not give permission to Pennbaker et. al. to release/include his performance in the film for his own reasons. Gave the producers fits. Bowie also sings a few bars of "Love Me Do" during "The Jean Genie" and they probably would have to pay a gazillion for the rights to that these days.

When footage is'thrown out' and 'recovered' by a new party, it then becomes that person's property and they can then charge what they feel is adequate for the use. Thus, the rarer the footage, the higher the stakes. Once it's in circulation and everyone can get a copy, bootleg or not, its value - both monetarily and also 'content'-wise is pretty much smoked. And, yes, there are people who are in this type of business and it is their livlihood, or they have started a company specifically for that purpose. An archive if you will.

By 'content' wise, I mean someone putting together a history of the Stones or similar would not, you'd think, want to use the same stock footage or common footage that every other docu. has used. Makes their's look better obviously. So if whomever owns the clips lets it out, its value is, again, smoked.

The common NME PW footage you see (64/65) is available through many sources, and in varying quality -- kind of like the often crappy looking stock footage many 'houses' use from Monerrey Pop or Gimme Shelter (the real dark grainy stuff) which are taken from worse quality prints of the footage that have been leased, or similar, to other film houses.

And anything you see with a running time code at the bottom has, pretty much, been used without permission, though some exceptions may exist like the 'time code' copy is the only remaining copy as the original was destroyed, damaged, or stolen.

Time codes and 'credits' splattered across footage generally are from rough cuts/edits of films or preview copies sent to the producers that want to consider paying for the rights to use the footage.

Another possible reason the 68 NME Pollwinners has never seen the light of day could very well be because of exactly what it is: the last time The Stones played with Brian onstage, live. The boys may simply feel it is a personal memory they would rather not have diluted of its meaning by being in wide circulation.

And another reason may also be that no one really knows exactly where it is, or who exactly has it, or the owners may not even know what that dusty film can is in the back of the film storage room.

And, yes, some collector might have come into possession of it and wants to keep it for himself. Kind of like an art thief. Plus you have to understand the 'value' of something like that to a collector -- that kind of piece can gather a HUGE bargaining price in deals involving lost master tapes or outtake masters or the like. And could also go for a pretty hefty sum at auction if, indeed, they could prove rightful ownership of the footage.

If they don't have rightful ownership, they can't very well sell it legally, or put it out legally without risk of penalty. And someone like ABKCO would just LOVE to bring the hammer down on someone like that -- especially if it meant recovering a VERY valuable item.

Similar is the case with the 'alternate cut' of Gimme Shelter that Maysles has mentioned. With additional footage both on and off stage (Keith Rolling a joint in a bathtub apparently is part of it), the directors assembled a compeltely alternate version of the film which was subsequently stolen. (Yes, he could reassemble it from the negatives, but it would take far too much effort). The problem with this theft was that in those days the soundtrack and film were two seperate pieces and the thief only got the visual portion.

And what exactly can he or she do with it? Nothing -- once it gets circulated they can then track down who had it, and,apparently they have a real good idea about whose closet that's been sitting in unused for all these years.

I'll stop now,

J

Fascinating stuff J and thanks for your input.

I really was only referring to the "limited collector's circles" quote you used to describe the availability of the '68 Frost Show footage, which has otherwise only seen two recent outings, one brief snippet in the French "Let it Bleed" documentary, plus a different and longer clip from the same performance on a recent BBC offering on Sex and Rock Music in the '60's - oh and yes a little bit appeared on the ridiculous Fat Boy Slim "Sympathy" remis on the extras part of the "Rock n' Roll Circus" DVD.

The fact that unlike the NME Pollwinners performance which as you stated is somewhere in the weird video Bermuda Triangle where a lot of this stuff currently resides, this performance is being restricted to "limited collector's circles", means (I think) that it's out there without official sanction but is being viewed by an "A-List" of Stones collectors.

At least that's the inference that I inferred. If it's not in any kind of circulation amongst Stones collector's be they royalty or mere plebs then so be it.

But there is a really weird kind of hubris that afflicts some collectors whilst others are keen to share and trade.

As an example I'd cite the truly sad tale of the collector who released the black and white edit of "Rock n Roll Circus" (still for me the best edit) some almost twenty years ago. Epoch making event as it was in those days the virtual Rosetta Stone of Stones video archiving.

Anyway the first incarnation of this gem was just about watchable until the Stones performance where it became quickly and horribly apparent that said collector had put interference through much of the video rendering the Stones section of the film worse than useless.

When "25X5" was aired a year later, miraculously a better copy surfaced devoid of the crap and there was a general feeling that the impetus for the better version was the hint that the whole "Rock n' Roll Circus" film was due for release in the not too distant future.

It's that kind of mindset that I do think is a bit counterproductive and ever so slightly divsive.

There's also the certain knowledge that oft times a band is usuallly it's own worst archivist, the suits are'nt interested and the creatives are thinking about the next album, tour, shag of the moment - whatever.

Which is why when DVDs are being compiled there are occassional amnestys offered to people sitting on material they shouldn't have access to as location of the original master tapes are no longer where people thought they were.

So there is certainly a place for the enthusiast who seeks out the rare and uncirculated material. They do it out of a genuine enthusiasm and love of their subject matter and without them the annals of rock history would be a lot leaner

Interesting points from both of ya. Thanks!

Personally, I can definitely see why a personal collector would sit on something rare and not release it; on the other hand I really also stand by the fact that the material is there for the fans, that there can be a genuine pleasure in seeing other people enjoy what you've released to the public (as long as you're not gonna get shot by the rightful owners, if there are any). That's one of the best things with the many bootleg torrent sites and forums on the web these days -- the urge among people to freely trade and help each other out simply for the pure enjoyment of seeing a great show from your fave band -- and because we all know from experience the enjoyment, and therefore feel motivated to share. May sound silly, but it's true.

Anita & Marianne in the NME audience



All shots Daily Mirror Archives



ROCKMAN

That last picture there...it's the perfect Stones picture, fantastic Rockman!

Yeah Erik....I guess their all full of quality cakes....!!!



ROCKMAN

Poink! It took me 10 minutes to get that one! It's getting late...

ROCKMAN

JMARKO has a great input indeed. But I think it's the POW from Mick 'n Keef. JMARKO translates into "Jagger Mick And Richards Keith Organization".... ;-)

JumpingKentFlash

Oh yes that NME Special RS edition...it's a good read, I wish they'd give out some 70s RS specials too.

Fascinating thread with some great points. Agree with what Mikey said about some collectors' reluctance to circulate stuff when they see it resold for profit. I've always took the attitude that its there to be shared with other fans (unless Ive been specifically instructed NOT to do so for some time), but it does gall me no end when material I've gone to some lengths to track down and help circulate gets sold on by some unscrupulous bastard for profit - so I can sympathise to some degree why some folks are reluctant to part with such rare material to begin with. Look at it another way - by buying this stuff and giving these people a business, youre maybe at the same time discouraging other collectors from sharing what they have.

great pix Rockman - I havent seen too many from that 1968 NME show. There's also a photo in Tony Scaduto's Jagger biography from that show where Mick appears to be throwing something at the audience

And you learn something new every day. I had never even heard of the rehearsals at the Marquee for Rock n Roll Circus.

do you want to hear the two tracks from rehearsals ?

vancouver Wrote:
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> do you want to hear the two tracks from rehearsals
> ?


Yes please, that would be great. OMG, do you have them????

Of course. I'm assuming all this is different to the rehearsals they did at the Tv studio just before show time which included Yonder Wall, Walkin blues etc

The 1968 Surrey Rehearsals??? I have that on CD at home.

Rolling Stones
1968 Surrey Rehearsals
VGP-108
Contains the Surrey rehearsals from 1968. Good mono quality only.
London, UK 3/68, R.G. Jones Studios

1 Rock Me Baby
2 Stray Cat Blues
3 Untitled Instrumental
4 Hold On, I'm A-Coming
5 Jumpin' Jack Flash
6 Untitled Jam
7 Some Satisfaction
8 Rock Me Baby 1
9 Rock Me Baby 2
10 Untitled Instrumental
11 Interview


Can probably upload it on Hot Stuff if someone wants it. Not before tomorrow or Friday though....

JumpingKentFlash



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-10-18 15:45 by JumpingKentFlash.

It's the Marquee rehearsals for Rock'n Roll Circus in December, which is discussed.
Surrey Rehearsals are Beggars Banquet/JJFlash rehearsals.

JumpingKentFlash Wrote:
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> The 1968 Surrey Rehearsals??? I have that on CD at
> home.
>
>

no, thats from March. this other stuff is from early December 1968

the show where Jagger was zonked on Valium was the "conference" held between him, William Rees-Mogg (the guy who wrote the "Butterfly On A Wheel" editorial") and a couple of other political figures....can't remember their names right off......but anywayz, this was held out in the country and Jagger was flown in by helicopter. There's a clip of this "debate" or "conference" or whatever in the 25x5 documentary showing Jagger talking very slowly.......

this was a great moment in stones history. these pictures capture them as they were reaching new heights; taking it to the next level. It was a glimpse into the future.

Gazza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> no, thats from March. this other stuff is from
> early December 1968


Damn. Didn't see this message yesterday. I brought the Surrey Reheasals to my dad's place to upload, but I guess it won't matter now.

JumpingKentFlash

So what does vancouver be holding?

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

sorry !!!!!!! uploading it now

[www.sendspace.com]

1968-Dec 12-R&R-Rehearsals-01-Parachute Woman.mp3

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1968-Dec 12-R&R-Rehearsals-02-YCAGWYW.mp3

What would they have performed at that May '68 gig? (Sorry if I wasn't paying anough attention to the content of the many posts...)

Was that a long(ish) set?

Great pictures, thanks!

Odd-beat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What would they have performed at that May '68
> gig?

Satisfaction and Jumpin' Jumpin' Jumpin' Jack.

www.marmalade-skies.co.uk

__________________________

Hey vancouver --

Tell us more about the files you uploaded. I'm listening to Parachute Woman now and it sounds awesome. Where did you get them from? Are they really at the Marquee in December '68, or are they from the Circus? Is there a lossless (non-mp3) version available some way?

Many questions, but I'd love to get them answered. Thanks a lot!

Sorry to repeat myself, but I'm listening to the other clip now, of YCAGWYW, and freakin' hell what a great recording. Keith's guitar playing is shit hot, it's fast and funky and Mick's vocals sound really cool. Different from all other versions I've ever heard (although I haven't listened much to the Circus version, I gotta admit).

vancouver -- please tell us more, and if you got any more tracks, I'd be (as it goes in Miss You) dyyyyyyin' to git 'em!