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dedospegajosos

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Doxa

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dedospegajosos
Overdubbing with a new performance is one thing, copying and pasting from the studio version is a new level of mediocrity ...and also stupidity

Hmm..I get your point and feel your sentiment, but what does it really matter from where the over-dub derives from? That of Jagger hammering the part one to one again, or using the already recorded 'original'? A studio over-dub and 'non-authentic' all the same.

More that of stupidity I would call it more like laziness... Or pragmatic reasoning.

- Doxa

Imagine Get yer ya yas out! overdubbed with the original studio tracks instead of the re-recorded newly performed parts...

The versions were so different that it wouldn't have worked. Pretty hard to imagine. But still they over-dubbed, for example, the chorus of "Jumpin' Jack Flash" to go more like the original, and not like Mick sung those live. It was quite a strong artistic decision to alter the live performance to something else that wasn't heard there at all live.

In my book, I don't know which is the bigger ethical crime against authenticity. But both sound mighty fine when I listen the results. And in the end, that is all that really matters. I am alright if I've been fooled if the result just sounds good... I have loose morals..

More seriously, I guess there is a grey area between a pure document, with no any over-dubs at all or anything touched, and something like "Fortune Teller" on GLIYWI... Where to draw the line - when the representation of a live performance starts to be too far from the actual performance - seems to open for a debate, and, in the end, up to personal opinion.

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2024-03-20 19:49 by Doxa.

Putting out "Fortune Teller" and "I've Been Loving You Too Long" with fake audience noise was shameful, though hardly unheard of in the 1960s. It would have been better to release the two songs as bonus studio tracks rather than pretend they were performed in concert, but it was a different era and labels and producers didn't care as much about "product" having integrity.

Overdubbing YA-YA'S and other live albums will always irritate purists, but fixing live recordings in the studio doesn't bother me the way the hideous edit on LIVE LICKS does. Minimal overdubbing of a live recording is just a correction by the artist because they don't have a better version to substitute and don't wish to cut the song from the album track listing.

Replacing the rhythm guitar track from the live performance of "Bite My Head Off" with the original studio recording's guitar track is not comparable, sadly. It reduces the live recording to miming, if only in part. I realize many artists rely on tour production tracks in concert because of health or age to ensure their performance is as perfect as possible. The difference there is they're using tracks that were cut during tour rehearsals until their voice or fingers recover. Presumably, this otherwise inexplicable substitution was made to expedite the process and not miss the Christmas market for the live album. Hopefully this late period blunder is never repeated. I realize few people have the album and even fewer will care, but it does seem tastelessly disingenous.

The important thing is that there are no overdubs on YaYa’s of the instruments except the rhythm guitar on Carol, which was insignificant to the overall performance to begin with. It is a”live” album

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Taylor1
The important thing is that there are no overdubs on YaYa’s of the instruments except the rhythm guitar on Carol, which was insignificant to the overall performance to begin with. It is a”live” album

Hmm.. so vocals are not that important part of a performance? I've seen this attitude pretty often that over-dubbing or 'fixing' - to use Rocky Dijon's word - vocals 'do not really matter'. But I don't buy it. When I go to see The Stones I am not going to see The Shadows. What Jagger does there - the noise he makes - is a big part of that experience. Now, if I'd like to have an authentic documentation of that show, those should be included, not to be substituted by some studio recording afterwards. To me vocals is an integral part of the band sound, one of the most important and distinguished instruments. To do something about it, is as as much breaking the rules of authenticity of a live performance than any of the other instruments. Nothing wrong with that, but that should apply to other things as well, if we are to be consistent. No double standards.

- Doxa



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2024-03-21 08:46 by Doxa.

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Rocky Dijon
Putting out "Fortune Teller" and "I've Been Loving You Too Long" with fake audience noise was shameful, though hardly unheard of in the 1960s. It would have been better to release the two songs as bonus studio tracks rather than pretend they were performed in concert, but it was a different era and labels and producers didn't care as much about "product" having integrity.

Overdubbing YA-YA'S and other live albums will always irritate purists, but fixing live recordings in the studio doesn't bother me the way the hideous edit on LIVE LICKS does. Minimal overdubbing of a live recording is just a correction by the artist because they don't have a better version to substitute and don't wish to cut the song from the album track listing.

Replacing the rhythm guitar track from the live performance of "Bite My Head Off" with the original studio recording's guitar track is not comparable, sadly. It reduces the live recording to miming, if only in part. I realize many artists rely on tour production tracks in concert because of health or age to ensure their performance is as perfect as possible. The difference there is they're using tracks that were cut during tour rehearsals until their voice or fingers recover. Presumably, this otherwise inexplicable substitution was made to expedite the process and not miss the Christmas market for the live album. Hopefully this late period blunder is never repeated. I realize few people have the album and even fewer will care, but it does seem tastelessly disingenous.

Well, let's say that I am not that annoyed by this latest manouvre. To me it more reflects their attitude towards live releases for a long time. Maybe they never been that worried about authenticity as some purists are, but once upon a time it was at least them who take of that 'fixing', beefing up the performances with some extra guitars, over-dubbing vocals and whatever. Now they don't seem to bother at all, but let somebody else to do that.

The mentioned LIVE LICKS with its terrible edits is an early symptom of that. Like a showcase of 'we don't really care'. The worse was yet to come. Was it that big A Bigger Bang era DVD or what in which some bloody guitar technician added terribly standing-out guitars to things like "Get Off of My Cloud" to make the whole thing sound like plastic and unreal. Like the guitar maestros - you know the dudes who suppose to play the guitars in the band - didn't bother. Thinking of the guy who once thought that Taylor's guitar is not good enough to do justice for Berry rhythm, so he needed to do it himself. Or the same guy a bit later
carefully added extra guitars to beef up "Under My Thumb" and "Let's Spend The Night Together" to make the album representing 1981 American concert 1981 stronger. The same dude who thought the raw tapes of small gig need a heavy load of guitar over-dubs if to be released as a part of a high-profile double live album. Well, at least he did all that by his own hands. He bothered and he cared.

So I think the idea of using some already recorded guitar part to beef up a live performance suits very to the mindset of last decades. They just don't bother. I don't even try to justify that by them being busy to get the record out. I don't think Jagger had bothered to replay the guitar part in any case if he knew the already cut bit could be used as well.

Maybe it is a new low - if we forget for the sake of the argument the old GOT LIVE tracks - but I think it is more a case of semantics at this stage. Like Dylan put it, "I used to care, but things have changed"...

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2024-03-21 10:09 by Doxa.

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Doxa
...
Maybe it is a new low - if we forget for the sake of the argument the old GOT LIVE tracks - but I think it is more a case of semantics at this stage. Like Dylan put it, "I used to care, but things have changed"...

- Doxa

You were the right the first time . .. "..laziness or pragmatic reasoning."

I suspect the decision to release the Racket show was pretty last minute and this was just the quickest an easiest way to fettle it.

Shame it was needed ... but no big issue in my book.

If a band doesn't know how to play a song of theirs live, they shouldn't play it live. Simple.

This is perhaps one of those where we should respect the contrary opinion , agree to differ, and not get too upset about it .

Shattered, Tumbling Dice and, maybe, Sweet Sound of Heaven are the listenable songs on the live CD. The others, except JJ Flash, are simply unlistenable fake recordings.
Simple as that. No need to defend or overanalyze that.

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Stoneage
Shattered, Tumbling Dice and, maybe, Sweet Sound of Heaven are the listenable songs on the live CD. The others, except JJ Flash, are simply unlistenable fake recordings.
Simple as that. No need to defend or overanalyze that.

What is fake about WWW and Angry? I wouldn't call it fake for editing off a few mistakes (WWW). There's still plenty included

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Spud
This is perhaps one of those where we should respect the contrary opinion , agree to differ, and not get too upset about it .

C'mon, Spud, I don't think anyone is here upset at all about the opinions differing or being contrary or whatever. Or at least I don't see that. I think this is a great discussion with different point of views. And everybody's equally right!

- Doxa

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Doxa

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Spud
This is perhaps one of those where we should respect the contrary opinion , agree to differ, and not get too upset about it .

C'mon, Spud, I don't think anyone is here upset at all about the opinions differing or being contrary or whatever. Or at least I don't see that. I think this is a great discussion with different point of views. And everybody's equally right!

- Doxa

Hang on. If one is to disagree with your point that "everyone is equally right", where does that leave your point?

Right?

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treaclefingers

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Doxa

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Spud
This is perhaps one of those where we should respect the contrary opinion , agree to differ, and not get too upset about it .

C'mon, Spud, I don't think anyone is here upset at all about the opinions differing or being contrary or whatever. Or at least I don't see that. I think this is a great discussion with different point of views. And everybody's equally right!

- Doxa

Hang on. If one is to disagree with your point that "everyone is equally right", where does that leave your point?

Right?

Maybe we are all equally wrong, with a touch of right? It is fun to debate..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-03-21 14:43 by dedospegajosos.

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Stoneage
Shattered, Tumbling Dice and, maybe, Sweet Sound of Heaven are the listenable songs on the live CD. The others, except JJ Flash, are simply unlistenable fake recordings.
Simple as that. No need to defend or overanalyze that.

"Unlistenable fake recordings". Damn you have ethical ears. I can listen "Fortune Teller" from GOT LIVE with no problem. The only thing that brothers me is that the audience noise is just so damn loud sometimes. Pretty hard to recognize what the band does.

- Doxa

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treaclefingers

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Doxa

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Spud
This is perhaps one of those where we should respect the contrary opinion , agree to differ, and not get too upset about it .

C'mon, Spud, I don't think anyone is here upset at all about the opinions differing or being contrary or whatever. Or at least I don't see that. I think this is a great discussion with different point of views. And everybody's equally right!

- Doxa

Hang on. If one is to disagree with your point that "everyone is equally right", where does that leave your point?

Right?

Fake news! I didn't say anything about points. I said that every body is equally right. You know, your body is perectly fine, it fits for you, mine to me, etc. Well, if not, doctor or plastic surgery helps...

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-03-21 15:03 by Doxa.

When we start getting this silly...

...we might conclude that this specific argument has rather exhausted itself

The wider debate about whether the often ramshackle sound of the Rolling Stones should be committed to record warts and all is one that has raged for a generation.

We're all right, wrong ...right, left... and she's gone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-03-21 15:48 by Spud.

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Doxa

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treaclefingers

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Doxa

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Spud
This is perhaps one of those where we should respect the contrary opinion , agree to differ, and not get too upset about it .

C'mon, Spud, I don't think anyone is here upset at all about the opinions differing or being contrary or whatever. Or at least I don't see that. I think this is a great discussion with different point of views. And everybody's equally right!

- Doxa

Hang on. If one is to disagree with your point that "everyone is equally right", where does that leave your point?

Right?

Fake news! I didn't say anything about points. I said that every body is equally right. You know, your body is perectly fine, it fits for you, mine to me, etc. Well, if not, doctor or plastic surgery helps...

- Doxa

I see you're developing a strange attraction towards me and I should warn you I'm happily married and heterosexual, not that there's anything wrong with that!

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Spud

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Doxa
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Maybe it is a new low - if we forget for the sake of the argument the old GOT LIVE tracks - but I think it is more a case of semantics at this stage. Like Dylan put it, "I used to care, but things have changed"...

- Doxa

You were the right the first time . .. "..laziness or pragmatic reasoning."

I suspect the decision to release the Racket show was pretty last minute and this was just the quickest an easiest way to fettle it.

Shame it was needed ... but no big issue in my book.

You absolutely nailed it, Spud!

On a more personal note, talking about Doxa's quote "I used to care, but things have changed" I must say that in old times, I belonged to the purists, but now my take is: "For authenticity, I have the bootlegs, but I don't want "warts 'n all" on official releases, so, yeah, "shame it was needed ... but no big issue in my book".

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Doxa
Well, let's say that I am not that annoyed by this latest...Maybe it is a new low - if we forget for the sake of the argument the old GOT LIVE tracks - but I think it is more a case of semantics at this stage. Like Dylan put it, "I used to care, but things have changed"...

- Doxa

I wrote my lengthy response to your lengthy post because I thought we were saying two different things. Then I ready your lengthy response to my lengthy post and realized we actually agree.

I’m sure that what I am about to say, in regards to Hackney Diamonds, has probably been said by the vast IORR community in 1 form or another but I am going to add my 2 cents worth of opinion anyway! Back in August, when my wife & I knew that the Stones new album was all set to be officially released in Oct. 2023, we were very excited. Like the rest of us, we couldn’t wait! Reading on here (almost) every day, we gathered that there was going to be 12 songs, some with various guest artists. We knew that there would be at least 1 song from Keith plus the 2 with our beloved Charlie on drums! The anticipation was building!

Then, in September, they released Angry! We loved it! Still do! Is it a “Satisfaction”, or a “Gimme Shelter”, or a “Start Me Up”, or a (insert any Stones hit you like)… No, it isn’t, but it is damn good for a 60+ year old group of 80ish musicians. This was then followed up with the video. I was hoping that they wouldn’t do the group thing with them prancing around like they are 30-somethings. They didn’t disappoint! We love the video that shows them on the billboards throughout the years! Oh yeah, we love Sydney Sweeney as well!

Next came the leaked songs Get Close & Depending On You. We thought they were real good and our excitement level grew for the complete album!

It was late October when we got the CD and that is all we listened to for that entire weekend! We are still listening to it on our home system, plus it’s on my computer and on a thumb drive (along with several other Stones albums) for playing in my car!

My wife likes the entire album! So do I, but I tend to listen to certain songs depending on my mood. To & from work, I ALWAYS listen to Angry, Depending On You, Dreamy Skies, Mess It Up & Sweet Sounds Of Heaven and then the others to fill the gap! We both think Lady Gaga is a great singer and looked forward to her contribution. SSOH did not disappoint! My wife had only cried at hearing 1 Stones song – Gimme Shelter (live, with Lisa Fischer’s powerful vocals)… until she heard Lady Gaga singing on SSOH! And for me, Dreamy Skies has become a very therapeutic song. It definitely relaxes me after a stressful work day but it also takes me to a place, some years back, where my wife and I were alone hiking in Acadia National Park, Maine, US. Several beautiful days of solitude with the love of my life! Now, that’s a song!

Now, I must preface what I am about to say with this – my wife & I love Keith, & Mick, & Ronnie, & Charlie & Bill, both with the Stones and in their solo careers. Not knowing if this will be their last album, we were really hoping that Keith would be able to give us another “Happy”, or “Before They Make Me Run”, or “Take It So Hard” or something more rocking. Unfortunately, “Tell Me Straight” was a big disappointment for us. Not that it’s bad or heartfelt, but it needed to be a rocker. We already have DOY, DS & SSOH, so we didn’t need a Crosseyed Heart leftover. I know a few people have said that age is probably the biggest factor here. Yes, I get it. Would have loved to see Keith redo “Trouble” and maybe Stones it up a bit for this album. But then I just heard Keith’s Lou Reed cover of “Waiting For The Man” and I thought WTF!!! Why couldn’t he bring something like that to the table. Uggghhh!

Lastly, we have “Rolling Stone Blues”. I love this cover and I loved their Blue & Lonesome album, but… I think this should be left for their last song on their last official album as The Rolling Stones! And if Mick & Keith are telling us they have enough left over for another album, then how fitting would that have been as their last song on their last album!

My overall rating – 3.8 stars out of 5!

godzi68

A wonderful read, godzi68. Thank you!

- Doxa

Yes, great review. I rate the album a little higher, probably a 4.5. The only song that drags a little for me is Live By The Sword. I quite like Keith's contribution here and yet I find Crosseyed a little dull.

Anyway, yes a nice read, thx.

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Doxa

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Taylor1
The important thing is that there are no overdubs on YaYa’s of the instruments except the rhythm guitar on Carol, which was insignificant to the overall performance to begin with. It is a”live” album

Hmm.. so vocals are not that important part of a performance? I've seen this attitude pretty often that over-dubbing or 'fixing' - to use Rocky Dijon's word - vocals 'do not really matter'. But I don't buy it. When I go to see The Stones I am not going to see The Shadows. What Jagger does there - the noise he makes - is a big part of that experience. Now, if I'd like to have an authentic documentation of that show, those should be included, not to be substituted by some studio recording afterwards. To me vocals is an integral part of the band sound, one of the most important and distinguished instruments. To do something about it, is as as much breaking the rules of authenticity of a live performance than any of the other instruments. Nothing wrong with that, but that should apply to other things as well, if we are to be consistent. No double standards.

- Doxa

I hear very little difference between Jagger’s vocals on the bootleg tracks and Get Yer Ya Ya’s Out .And you are overstating the overdubs.Arr they on every track? So if it bothers you, listen to the bootlegs.They show a great band playing great.There is also the Street Fighting Man on YouTube from one of the MSG shows where Mick yells at the end,”We Gotta Go”,which is not on the Ya Ya’s album which is better and has the original vocals.Also I like to listen to the songs without the vocals just to hear how great the band sounds

Thanks Doxa & treaclefingers! In another 5 or 6 months, my rating will definitely go up but I wanted the songs to sink in a bit first. If I compare HD to my 3 favorite 5 star albums (Some Girls, Let It Bleed & Sticky Fingers), it's not quite there... and I don't think it ever will hit 5 stars for me. But with all the factors involved, it's one really, really good album to listen to!

godzi68

Hey godzi,

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godzi68
...Unfortunately, “Tell Me Straight” was a big disappointment for us. Not that it’s bad or heartfelt, but it needed to be a rocker. We already have DOY, DS & SSOH, so we didn’t need a Crosseyed Heart leftover...

I felt the same way, and said as much in my first review, day 1 of release. Not that I thought it was bad, just that I was hoping for a rocker such as Trouble or Happy. But by my follow up a couple days later, I already changed my tune (not literally!). I think Tell Me Straight is excellent. It's short & simple but just a really nice song, love the guitars and especially Keith's vocals (& Mick on backup!). I consider it one of the many highlights of the album!

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godzi68
Thanks Doxa & treaclefingers! In another 5 or 6 months, my rating will definitely go up but I wanted the songs to sink in a bit first. If I compare HD to my 3 favorite 5 star albums (Some Girls, Let It Bleed & Sticky Fingers), it's not quite there... and I don't think it ever will hit 5 stars for me. But with all the factors involved, it's one really, really good album to listen to!

godzi68

I'd sort of rate it as tier 2

1. SF, EOMS, BB, LIB, Tattoo You, Some Girls (no particular order)
2. ENHM, Now, OOOH, Aftermath, BtB, IORR, Black & Blue, Undercover, Hackney Diamonds....Flowers, though a compilation is mostly "new".

Even tier 3 Stones for me is better than most other bands.
3. 12x5, December's Children, TSMR, GHS, Voodoo Lounge, B2B, ABB, Blue & Lonesome

Tier 4 need not be discussed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-03-24 06:21 by treaclefingers.

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LeonidP
Hey godzi,

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godzi68
...Unfortunately, “Tell Me Straight” was a big disappointment for us. Not that it’s bad or heartfelt, but it needed to be a rocker. We already have DOY, DS & SSOH, so we didn’t need a Crosseyed Heart leftover...

I felt the same way, and said as much in my first review, day 1 of release. Not that I thought it was bad, just that I was hoping for a rocker such as Trouble or Happy. But by my follow up a couple days later, I already changed my tune (not literally!). I think Tell Me Straight is excellent. It's short & simple but just a really nice song, love the guitars and especially Keith's vocals (& Mick on backup!). I consider it one of the many highlights of the album!

Hi LeonidP! I hear you. I think that if I wasn't hoping & praying for a "rocker" from Keith and we never had Crosseyed Heart available, I may have changed my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I still listen to it but I still wanted more. Plus, as I said in my post, hearing Keith's cover of the Lou Reed song just made me mad that he couldn't bring that to the table. Maybe he's saving his best for last? Realistically, we will probably get 1 more Stones album in the next 3-4 years and I would like to hear a kick-ass Keith song rather than a ballad.Go out with a bang!

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treaclefingers

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godzi68
Thanks Doxa & treaclefingers! In another 5 or 6 months, my rating will definitely go up but I wanted the songs to sink in a bit first. If I compare HD to my 3 favorite 5 star albums (Some Girls, Let It Bleed & Sticky Fingers), it's not quite there... and I don't think it ever will hit 5 stars for me. But with all the factors involved, it's one really, really good album to listen to!

godzi68

I'd sort of rate it as tier 2

1. SF, EOMS, BB, LIB, Tattoo You, Some Girls (no particular order)
2. ENHM, Now, OOOH, Aftermath, BtB, IORR, Black & Blue, Undercover, Hackney Diamonds....Flowers, though a compilation is mostly "new".

Even tier 3 Stones for me is better than most other bands.
3. 12x5, TSMR, GHS, Voodoo Lounge, B2B, ABB, Blue & Lonesome

Tier 4 need not be discussed.

Wow, that's a pretty close rating to what I think as well! And the great thing about it is, look at all the fantastic music we have from the boys!

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godzi68

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treaclefingers

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godzi68
Thanks Doxa & treaclefingers! In another 5 or 6 months, my rating will definitely go up but I wanted the songs to sink in a bit first. If I compare HD to my 3 favorite 5 star albums (Some Girls, Let It Bleed & Sticky Fingers), it's not quite there... and I don't think it ever will hit 5 stars for me. But with all the factors involved, it's one really, really good album to listen to!

godzi68

I'd sort of rate it as tier 2

1. SF, EOMS, BB, LIB, Tattoo You, Some Girls (no particular order)
2. ENHM, Now, OOOH, Aftermath, BtB, IORR, Black & Blue, Undercover, Hackney Diamonds....Flowers, though a compilation is mostly "new".

Even tier 3 Stones for me is better than most other bands.
3. 12x5, TSMR, GHS, Voodoo Lounge, B2B, ABB, Blue & Lonesome

Tier 4 need not be discussed.

Wow, that's a pretty close rating to what I think as well! And the great thing about it is, look at all the fantastic music we have from the boys!

where do we differ?

...........hey, Doxa, if what you say about studio techs adding guitar, and so on is correct, then it is Mick and Keefs laziness if they don't listen and correct before the LP is released.

........this goes back to the comments about the s***ty t-shirt and poster designs, they are OBVIOUSLY not even approved by the Stones, with a few exceptions. I can't imagine Mick and Keef approving 80-90% of the t-shirts over the last twenty years.

........oh yeh, unless an overdub is blatantly obvious, why do you and RockyDijon insist on pointing it out?. Any fan of any group should immediately be able to pick it out. I understand that Fleetwood Mac has a second drummer in the wings playing along. The "audience" on "Benny and the Jets" was a dub, pretty much impossible to recognize.Many groups avoid live recordings, because it's hard to get it right.

................back to the t-shirts..I still cannot figure out why the Stones don't have Ronnie Wood design some of the tour shurts, his "set-list" artwork would look great on a shirt!!