Quote
keefriffhards
What Mick has wrote in recent years is substandard material not worthy of a Stones album.

I'm really sorry for you keefriffhards because that means you can't enjoy much of the upcoming album since it's mostly Mick songs - it's a selection Andrew Watt chose of the over 100 demos Mick recorded over the last couple of years. As for me, I know I'm gonna enjoy it

Quote
keefriffhards
Where do you get it that Mick writes more than Keith, have you forgotten Crosseyed Heart.

Lol, exactly the quotes I posted in my post you quoted. Here again for you:

Quote
Keith Richards
I've got a few songs on the back burner and so does Mick - he writes a lot. I don't. I tend to concentrate on two or three really interesting riffs or ideas, rather than being prolific.

Quote
Keith Richards (about Mick)
Being prolific don't mean s**t. I've got three songs and they're dynamite

As for Crosseyed Heart - that album wouldn't have happened if Steve didn't kick him in the ass. Keith actually wanted to retire at that point. Steve knew he couldn't let that happen and demanded him to meet in the studio.

Quote
MelBelli

Quote
StonedRambler

Quote
MelBelli

Quote
StonedRambler

Quote
MelBelli

Quote
StonedRambler

Quote
MelBelli

But of the nine tracks they chose to work on with Andrew Watt under a deadline — yes, I could easily imagine Mick rolling over Keith under those circumstances.

Do any quotes exist to support that assumption?

I cannot by any means imagine Keith letting that happen.

The same number of quotes as exist to support the assumption that Keith Richards doesn’t write songs anymore.

As for Keith not being prolific these days we got these exact quotes:

Quote
Keith Richards
I've got a few songs on the back burner and so does Mick - he writes a lot. I don't. I tend to concentrate on two or three really interesting riffs or ideas, rather than being prolific.

Quote
Keith Richards
Being prolific don't mean s**t. I've got three songs and they're dynamite

So what quotes are there so support your assumption of Mick refusing to record Keith's songs? That is all speculation on your side. The fact that Keith ain't writing much and Mick does is confirmed by various interviews from Mick and Keith over the years.

Good grief, man, you’re treating these quotes like they’re sworn affidavits.

But if you insist on taking Keith at face value there, focusing on two or three good ideas at a time can add up over the course of decades.

And I believe Keith is very diplomatically intimating that most of Mick’s demos are … not good. And judging from what Mick has released on social media, he is not wrong.

If giving you the exact quotes won't change your assumption here then nothing will.

Anyway, I think it's great that Mick provided his 100+ songs for this album and he got Keith to get along with it. Otherwise we would still write in the "New album out in 2023?" thread waiting on Keith's dynamite riffs to add up for enough songs to fit on an album.

Which exact quote? That Keith likes to focus on two or three songs at a time? You leap from there to the conclusion that he doesn’t write anything at all.

Both. I didn't say he doesn't write at all anymore but obviously he just does not have much output these days. Don't worry, you'll get the usual jazz ballad sung by Keith and maybe like two songs that originate from his ideas. Maybe those are "dynamite" ones he talked about?

As for who wrote what on Hackney Diamonds, maybe the upcoming documentary about its making will shed a bit of light on such questions. But you can bet it will be "politically correct" and none of them will be portrayed in a way that would make him look bad.

I don't see why one should a priori exclude new songs that came about in collaborative writing sessions. There seem to have been a number of sessions over the years where Mick and Keith worked out things together, and I recall at least one such instance regarding which Keith enthusiastically spoke about new beautiful things being created that have not existed before (or similar). Determining whether any songs on the new album stem from such sessions would be mere guesswork, though, at this point.

That Mick is writing a lot on his own is nothing new, Mick says so often enough and even Keith is acknowledging it. In earlier times also Keith seems to have done some (much?) writing (music, at least) on his own, think e.g. of Wild Horses or Angie. One does get the impression that this is no longer the case (or, at least, not to the same extent), but why this would be so is anybody's guess. Considering Keith being Keith and certain aspects of his claim to fame, one might suspect that the restrictions in his extracurricular diet in the past one and a half decades starting with the palm tree incident may have to do with it, but again, what do we know. May as well have to do with settling down and home life. Suffering from arthritis possibly also gets in the way of just grabbing a guitar at times.

Ronnie seems to have fully accepted his role as a hired hand on a permanent contract, and in his painting he has also found a creative outlet in an area where there is no competition with Mick or Keith. Again, if he does any serious songwriting on his own round these days, or has any greater interest in it, we don't know. Myself, I still think that Ronnie could also contribute ideas at times leading to new (or other) eclectic shades but I don't see much of a chance for him to get a foot in the door at present. His present role rather seems to be that of a reliable performer on stage.

As for Crosseyed Heart, I don't think that much of it would have worked well on a Stones album. Some of it maybe with Keith as a singer. Think of One More Shot, which also sounds like Keith should have sung it. Also, considering how CH was made, and how long it took, it is hard to argue that CH be evidence of Keith's prolificacy.

As for HD or the prospective next one, if the songs are good, I do not really care much who among the two of them wrote them, or contributed what.

Too bad they don’t write together more.

Yeah get them Glimmers back down to Jamaica again ....



ROCKMAN

StonedRambler, what do you mean by "pre-written"? Because that literally means before being written.

Artists show up to recording sessions with written songs (Mick with Saint Of Me), written riffs and licks (Mick with Brown Sugar and YCAGWYW, Keith with Gimme Shelter and Live With Me, for two examples by each), written phrasing or hooks (Keith with the rolling lick of Shattered and "shadooby").

Some write them in the studio while recording (Bob Dylan loves to do that).

Writing the lyrics isn't the same as writing the songs.

Quote
Taylor1
Too bad they don’t write together more.

They wrote Driving Me Too Hard together.

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Taylor1
Too bad they don’t write together more.

They wrote Driving Me Too Hard together.

Seemingly they did, and pretty recently. But it is interesting if the song is the same or related to the one they tried back in 2015 (during the infamous 'hit the wall' sessions). If related, what was it like back then: a Mick demo or a Keith riff idea, etc. - something they years later found interesting to work further?

- Doxa

Quote
SomeGuy
Writing the lyrics isn't the same as writing the songs.

Precisely, and let's face it the albums over the last few decades haven't had amazing lyrics, not sure they are even great lyrics, just good enough lyrics to get the job finished in a forgettable way.
The thing is i consider Keith arguably the best creator of this type of music and what he has done to shape what we call Rock and Roll since the 60s.
I can't think of any artist that surpasses him on the quality and volume of material to go with that sound we call the Stones that Keith created mostly with his guitar.

Mick is also part of that, Keith's songwriting buddy, Keiths spark ( or once was ) but like Steve Jordan we know they couldn't have been responsible for those songs on their own, if that were the case we would have evidence of it.

At the end of the day Mick and Keith have done it all and done it well, no need to put Keith down and give him a lower rank because since the 90s Mick insists albums must be made his way.

Quote
Doxa

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Taylor1
Too bad they don’t write together more.

They wrote Driving Me Too Hard together.

Seemingly they did, and pretty recently. But it is interesting if the song is the same or related to the one they tried back in 2015 (during the infamous 'hit the wall' sessions). If related, what was it like back then: a Mick demo or a Keith riff idea, etc. - something they years later found interesting to work further?

- Doxa

Could be a Keith-idea, where Mick's lyrics (or parts of) from 2015 made a good fit. Who knows?

Quote
GasLightStreet
StonedRambler, what do you mean by "pre-written"? Because that literally means before being written.

Artists show up to recording sessions with written songs (Mick with Saint Of Me), written riffs and licks (Mick with Brown Sugar and YCAGWYW, Keith with Gimme Shelter and Live With Me, for two examples by each), written phrasing or hooks (Keith with the rolling lick of Shattered and "shadooby").

Some write them in the studio while recording (Bob Dylan loves to do that).

With "pre-written" I mean that almost all those songs were based on Micks demos so melodies and lyrics were already there to a large extend.

However, as we know from the interviews, the exact structure of the song, the tempo, the groove, the exact harmonies, some phrasing etc. were laid out with Keith and Steve being present.

So I mean, Mick had prepared those songs but not finalized them in every detail.

Maybe "pre-written" is misleading in that regard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-09-25 12:50 by StonedRambler.

AMAZING to me that people can't either read or believe something when said so by a key principle of the band. Just amazing.

Booth Jagger and Richard can come up with socalled finished songs,but when these to Get together,they can change a lot of the song.So the magic happened when those to egos work together

Quote
GasLightStreet
StonedRambler, what do you mean by "pre-written"? Because that literally means before being written.

Artists show up to recording sessions with written songs (Mick with Saint Of Me), written riffs and licks (Mick with Brown Sugar and YCAGWYW, Keith with Gimme Shelter and Live With Me, for two examples by each), written phrasing or hooks (Keith with the rolling lick of Shattered and "shadooby").

Some write them in the studio while recording (Bob Dylan loves to do that).

Most likely not, as Mick's early version of BS sounded nothing like the studio version, with Keith's riff. He could have told Keith to play that riff that way, but somehow I doubt that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-09-25 15:25 by DandelionPowderman.

Take "Sympathy for the devil" - clearly a Jagger-only lyric.
Keith meanwhile concentrating on guitars and bass-lines.

Fine by me.

As a musician who composed songs with other musicians I must insist on pointing out that going into a studio with a - as it was written ealier - "pre-written" idea does by all menas not mean that this e.g. just a Jagger song.
Jagger presenting a song he wrote to Keith and Keith refining it might change the song completely.Imagine Jagger singing his lyrics to his own guitar playing and then to Keith guitarplaying....
Too bad we don't have the luxury of comparing the taped demo to the final result

And when it comes to Jagger songs where Keith only hammered a few riffs in - there is a theoretical chance HD could contain 12 "Brown Sugars"

Anyway - I am happy there is a new album - however it was made.

I think Jagger goes like: "I wanna write songs - I don't have time to wait for Keef all life" - so he writes alone.

Keith on the other hand: "If Mick wants to write he can call me or send a fax - if not I'm not writing at all.." - which he did until Jordan forced him into CH.

In the past these two opposite attitudes clashed for 15 years or so.... So maybe Andy Watt was the missing link in this....

---
5 Strings, 2 Hands, 1 A*****e



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023-09-25 14:04 by DeeGee.

"However, as we know from the interviews, the exact structure of the song, the tempo, the groove, the exact harmonies, some phrasing etc. were laid out with Keith and Steve being present"

And Matt! Their work didn't warrant a writing credit though...there must be some kind of financial arrangement though.

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

All in all it's great with a new album. Much better than another warhorse tour. But maybe we have a cancelled 2023 tour to thank for the album?

Quote
Stoneage
All in all it's great with a new album. Much better than another warhorse tour. But maybe we have a cancelled 2023 tour to thank for the album?

No, they already had the album finished in March. A summer tour would have been independent from that.

Quote
Rip This
AMAZING to me that people can't either read or believe something when said so by a key principle of the band. Just amazing.

Yes, really amazing. If you give people exact quotes from Keith or Mick and they still won't believe it then nothing will convince them.

Quote
DeeGee
Take "Sympathy for the devil" - clearly a Jagger-only lyric.
Keith meanwhile concentrating on guitars and bass-lines.

Fine by me.

As a musician who composed songs with other musicians I must insist on pointing out that going into a studio with a - as it was written ealier - "pre-written" idea does by all menas not mean that this e.g. just a Jagger song.
Jagger presenting a song he wrote to Keith and Keith refining it might change the song completely.Imagine Jagger singing his lyrics to his own guitar playing and then to Keith guitarplaying....
Too bad we don't have the luxury of comparing the taped demo to the final resul
ts
And when it comes to Jagger songs where Keith only hammered a few riffs in - there is a theoretical chance HD could contain 12 "Brown Sugars"

Anyway - I am happy there is a new album - however it was made.

I think Jagger goes like: "I wanna write songs - I don't have time to wait for Keef all life" - so he writes alone.

Keith on the other hand: "If Mick wants to write he can call me or send a fax - if not I'm not writing at all.." - which he did until Jordan forced him into CH.

In the past these two opposite attitudes clashed for 15 years or so.... So maybe Andy Watt was the missing link in this....

Mick wrote Sympathy. The change to samba beat may have been inspired by Brian’s experiments on Satanic Majesties and his discovery of the Pipes of Pan in 1967

Quote
Stoneage

But maybe we have a cancelled 2023 tour to thank for the album?

Looks like the master recordings were ready end of March 2023. Then they wanted to tour the new album. A good release date before tour start could have been 2-Jun-2023. But then Universal Music probably told them that a two months timeframe is too short for pressing the Vinyl. See the interview with the NY Times - [iorr.org] .

Quote
Taylor1

Quote
DeeGee
Take "Sympathy for the devil" - clearly a Jagger-only lyric.
Keith meanwhile concentrating on guitars and bass-lines.

Fine by me.

As a musician who composed songs with other musicians I must insist on pointing out that going into a studio with a - as it was written ealier - "pre-written" idea does by all menas not mean that this e.g. just a Jagger song.
Jagger presenting a song he wrote to Keith and Keith refining it might change the song completely.Imagine Jagger singing his lyrics to his own guitar playing and then to Keith guitarplaying....
Too bad we don't have the luxury of comparing the taped demo to the final resul
ts
And when it comes to Jagger songs where Keith only hammered a few riffs in - there is a theoretical chance HD could contain 12 "Brown Sugars"

Anyway - I am happy there is a new album - however it was made.

I think Jagger goes like: "I wanna write songs - I don't have time to wait for Keef all life" - so he writes alone.

Keith on the other hand: "If Mick wants to write he can call me or send a fax - if not I'm not writing at all.." - which he did until Jordan forced him into CH.

In the past these two opposite attitudes clashed for 15 years or so.... So maybe Andy Watt was the missing link in this....

Mick wrote Sympathy. The change to samba beat may have been inspired by Brian’s experiments on Satanic Majesties and his discovery of the Pipes of Pan in 1967

That's what i was trying to point of with my post - Mick songs ain't bad per definition

---
5 Strings, 2 Hands, 1 A*****e

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
GasLightStreet
StonedRambler, what do you mean by "pre-written"? Because that literally means before being written.

Artists show up to recording sessions with written songs (Mick with Saint Of Me), written riffs and licks (Mick with Brown Sugar and YCAGWYW, Keith with Gimme Shelter and Live With Me, for two examples by each), written phrasing or hooks (Keith with the rolling lick of Shattered and "shadooby").

Some write them in the studio while recording (Bob Dylan loves to do that).

Most likely not, as Mick's early version of BS sounded nothing like the studio version, with Keith's riff. He could have told Keith to play that riff that way, but somehow I doubt that.

Can Mick's early version be listened to somewhere?

As far as I know, Mick wrote BS in Austrialia while shooting Ned Kelly, on an accoustic guitar - which means he likely did not play the riff as it is played on Sticky Fingers, starting at the 12th fret in open G tuning (very difficult to play a barre chord on an accoustic on the 12th fret). Yet that doesn't say Mick didn't have the idea for the riff, he could have chosen a voicing better suited for the guitar he was using. Is there any reliable information as to who came up with the riff?

As for Mick's demos, judging from what I read, since the digital age, Mick brings in quite advanced demos where the others only have to fill in certain parts ("Ronnie, put some slide over these eight bars" or so). If that is really so (or where it is really so), this differs somewhat from playing a song to the rest of the group and then see what the others do with it.
Maybe we will be wiser once the upcoming documentary about the making of HD is out (or maybe not ...).

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
GasLightStreet
StonedRambler, what do you mean by "pre-written"? Because that literally means before being written.

Artists show up to recording sessions with written songs (Mick with Saint Of Me), written riffs and licks (Mick with Brown Sugar and YCAGWYW, Keith with Gimme Shelter and Live With Me, for two examples by each), written phrasing or hooks (Keith with the rolling lick of Shattered and "shadooby").

Some write them in the studio while recording (Bob Dylan loves to do that).

Most likely not, as Mick's early version of BS sounded nothing like the studio version, with Keith's riff. He could have told Keith to play that riff that way, but somehow I doubt that.

But what Keith did for "Brown Sugar" - was that actually writing? He himself called that "arrangement". That a recorded song sounds different than the original composition depends on many things - not the least by different musicians putting their mark on it. Some of the latter might be very innovative and crucial for the final outcome (like the guitar riff of "The Last Time" made by Brian Jones). But still belonging to the realm of arrangements as far as credition go - at least in a Rolling Stones universe.

I have for a long time noticed a funny inconsistance in these discussions related to song-writing. When Keith does anything to a track, it is seen as contributing to the creation of the song, that, a part of writing process. But when someone else - say, Brian Jones, Mick Taylor, Bill Wyman, etc - does that, it is not...

But I think in general the distinction between writing and arranging is a bit indefinite in Stones music, since a great deal of the greatness of a Stones recording is based on what the dudes are doing together in a studio - many people contributing to the unique sounding outcome. Many times the original songs are pretty loose ideas and sketches. It looks like the leading credition policy is: the credits go there who comes up with those initial ideas and sketches - whatever happen to them later, or how they are developed further in the studio, no matter who does what, is always "Jagger-Richards" as far as Stones recordings go. (Until Andrew Watt, that is).

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023-09-25 17:00 by Doxa.

Quote
Doxa

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
GasLightStreet
StonedRambler, what do you mean by "pre-written"? Because that literally means before being written.

Artists show up to recording sessions with written songs (Mick with Saint Of Me), written riffs and licks (Mick with Brown Sugar and YCAGWYW, Keith with Gimme Shelter and Live With Me, for two examples by each), written phrasing or hooks (Keith with the rolling lick of Shattered and "shadooby").

Some write them in the studio while recording (Bob Dylan loves to do that).

Most likely not, as Mick's early version of BS sounded nothing like the studio version, with Keith's riff. He could have told Keith to play that riff that way, but somehow I doubt that.

But what Keith did for "Brown Sugar" - was that actually writing? He himself called that "arrangement". That a recorded song sounds different than the original composition depends on many things - not the least by different musicians putting their mark on it. Some of the latter might be very innovative and crucial for the final outcome (like the guitar riff of "The Last Time" made by Brian Jones). But still belonging to the realm of arrangements as far as credition go - at least in a Rolling Stones universe.

I have for a long time noticed a funny inconsistance in these discussions related to song-writing. When Keith does anything to a track, it is seen as contributing to the creation of the song, that, a part of writing process. But when someone else - say, Brian Jones, Mick Taylor, Bill Wyman, etc - does that, it is not...

But I think in general the distinction between writing and arranging is a bit indefinite in Stones music, since a great deal of the greatness of a Stones recording is based on what the dudes are doing together in a studio - many people contributing to the unique sounding outcome. Many times the original songs are pretty loose ideas and sketches.

- Doxa

We don't really know how this one came together, but we can make educated guesses.

It's a grey area for sure, even I can see that. If Mick Taylor wrote the Bitch-riff when putting it together, should he have reveived songwriting credits? He didn't write the riff, but let's say he did. It's the same case. A huge part of the song: What people connect instantly when talking about a song (it's the same with The Last Time, btw). Mick certainly did the groundwork to BS by creating a «campfire version» + the words. That's the main songwriting.

Then there's Mick and Keith's arrangement...

However, what I reacted upon in Skippy's post was that he claimed that Mick wrote the riff to BS. I'm not so sure about that.

Quote
doitywoik

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
GasLightStreet
StonedRambler, what do you mean by "pre-written"? Because that literally means before being written.

Artists show up to recording sessions with written songs (Mick with Saint Of Me), written riffs and licks (Mick with Brown Sugar and YCAGWYW, Keith with Gimme Shelter and Live With Me, for two examples by each), written phrasing or hooks (Keith with the rolling lick of Shattered and "shadooby").

Some write them in the studio while recording (Bob Dylan loves to do that).

Most likely not, as Mick's early version of BS sounded nothing like the studio version, with Keith's riff. He could have told Keith to play that riff that way, but somehow I doubt that.

Can Mick's early version be listened to somewhere?

As far as I know, Mick wrote BS in Austrialia while shooting Ned Kelly, on an accoustic guitar - which means he likely did not play the riff as it is played on Sticky Fingers, starting at the 12th fret in open G tuning (very difficult to play a barre chord on an accoustic on the 12th fret). Yet that doesn't say Mick didn't have the idea for the riff, he could have chosen a voicing better suited for the guitar he was using. Is there any reliable information as to who came up with the riff?

As for Mick's demos, judging from what I read, since the digital age, Mick brings in quite advanced demos where the others only have to fill in certain parts ("Ronnie, put some slide over these eight bars" or so). If that is really so (or where it is really so), this differs somewhat from playing a song to the rest of the group and then see what the others do with it.
Maybe we will be wiser once the upcoming documentary about the making of HD is out (or maybe not ...).

[www.youtube.com]

I did not realize that Brown Sugar was going to be on Hackney Diamonds!?
Fantastic, I love that song.

Oh, wait...Just the typical wankerswanking around ruining another thread here on IORR.
Hard to get excited about anything these days when constantly reminded about the Mick vs. Keith war.
So @#$%& ignorant.

Quote
Taylor1

Quote
DeeGee
Take "Sympathy for the devil" - clearly a Jagger-only lyric.
Keith meanwhile concentrating on guitars and bass-lines.

Fine by me.

As a musician who composed songs with other musicians I must insist on pointing out that going into a studio with a - as it was written ealier - "pre-written" idea does by all menas not mean that this e.g. just a Jagger song.
Jagger presenting a song he wrote to Keith and Keith refining it might change the song completely.Imagine Jagger singing his lyrics to his own guitar playing and then to Keith guitarplaying....
Too bad we don't have the luxury of comparing the taped demo to the final resul
ts
And when it comes to Jagger songs where Keith only hammered a few riffs in - there is a theoretical chance HD could contain 12 "Brown Sugars"

Anyway - I am happy there is a new album - however it was made.

I think Jagger goes like: "I wanna write songs - I don't have time to wait for Keef all life" - so he writes alone.

Keith on the other hand: "If Mick wants to write he can call me or send a fax - if not I'm not writing at all.." - which he did until Jordan forced him into CH.

In the past these two opposite attitudes clashed for 15 years or so.... So maybe Andy Watt was the missing link in this....

Mick wrote Sympathy. The change to samba beat may have been inspired by Brian’s experiments on Satanic Majesties and his discovery of the Pipes of Pan in 1967

If Godard's film is at least partly correct, than the final song is something very different from Mick's original outline. Creatively, it is a completely different animal which developed during the recording session.

Quote
MartinB

Quote
Taylor1

Quote
DeeGee
Take "Sympathy for the devil" - clearly a Jagger-only lyric.
Keith meanwhile concentrating on guitars and bass-lines.

Fine by me.

As a musician who composed songs with other musicians I must insist on pointing out that going into a studio with a - as it was written ealier - "pre-written" idea does by all menas not mean that this e.g. just a Jagger song.
Jagger presenting a song he wrote to Keith and Keith refining it might change the song completely.Imagine Jagger singing his lyrics to his own guitar playing and then to Keith guitarplaying....
Too bad we don't have the luxury of comparing the taped demo to the final resul
ts
And when it comes to Jagger songs where Keith only hammered a few riffs in - there is a theoretical chance HD could contain 12 "Brown Sugars"

Anyway - I am happy there is a new album - however it was made.

I think Jagger goes like: "I wanna write songs - I don't have time to wait for Keef all life" - so he writes alone.

Keith on the other hand: "If Mick wants to write he can call me or send a fax - if not I'm not writing at all.." - which he did until Jordan forced him into CH.

In the past these two opposite attitudes clashed for 15 years or so.... So maybe Andy Watt was the missing link in this....

Mick wrote Sympathy. The change to samba beat may have been inspired by Brian’s experiments on Satanic Majesties and his discovery of the Pipes of Pan in 1967

If Godard's film is at least partly correct, than the final song is something very different from Mick's original outline. Creatively, it is a completely different animal which developed during the recording session.

yeah it's a fantastic example for what that spark of creativity can do - even to a Jagger idea

---
5 Strings, 2 Hands, 1 A*****e