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Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: SomeTorontoGirl ()
Date: October 17, 2021 04:01

Sixty years ago, the spark was lit. Since then, there has been the sun, the moon and, eventually, the Rolling Stones. Kizmit!


Rolling Stones blue plaque: Jagger-Richards Dartford train meet marked
Published 5 February 2015

A blue plaque has been unveiled to mark the chance encounter between Mick Jagger and Keith Richards which had a profound effect on rock music.
Jagger and Richards had their first proper meeting on platform two of Dartford station on 17 October 1961.
They bonded over a love of the blues and formed a musical friendship that would lead to the foundation of The Rolling Stones in 1962.
The heritage plaque was unveiled at the station on Thursday.

Mayor of Dartford Avtar Sandhu and Dartford Grammar School head John Oakes unveil the plaque

"We've held a low key event today because Dartford is a working railway station and platform two is a modest space considering the station's enormous role in pop music history," Dartford Borough Council leader Jeremy Kite said.
"I hope that in the years ahead many thousands of rail passengers will enjoy looking at the plaque and realising what a huge part the station played in bringing The Rolling Stones together."

When they met, Richards was on his way to Sidcup Art College, carrying a hollow-bodied Höfner cutaway electric guitar, while Jagger was travelling to the London School of Economics with some of his prized blues records.

The teenagers recognised each other as they had both gone to Wentworth Primary School in the town, with Jagger then going on to study at Dartford Grammar.
The Rolling Stones formed in 1962, and went on to become one of the most successful, influential and enduring rock 'n' roll bands in the history of music.

[www.bbc.com]





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-20 03:28 by bv.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: CaptainCorella ()
Date: October 17, 2021 05:41

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl
and formed a musical friendship that would lead to the foundation of The Rolling Stones in 1962.

(Clarification... it's a quote from the BBC and not SomeTorontoGirl.)

As everyone here knows that is, of course, massively wrong and rewrites history.

Brian Jones founded the group!

It's doubly annoying because (following pre-publicity) I was in touch with the annoying Mr Kite and he had agreed that the Plaque would be worded differently and accurately. He's a politician, so he lied.

I even found someone willing to pay for a new plaque to replace the incorrect wording.

--
Captain Corella
59+ Years a Fan

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Topi ()
Date: October 17, 2021 09:50

What I loved most about the whole blue plaque "debacle" was Keith's shot back at Bill.

[www.kentonline.co.uk]

""I think Mick sent a note saying - because Bill comes from a town called Penge - 'Bill, if a plaque went up in Penge station that said you were the founding member of the Rolling Stones, do you think we'd complain?'"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-17 09:52 by Topi.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: October 17, 2021 11:30

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl

Rolling Stones blue plaque: Jagger-Richards Dartford train meet marked


2015 - [Twitter.com] , [iorr.org] , [iorr.org] .

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: ukcal ()
Date: October 17, 2021 13:32

So will Mick or Keith mention this in LA tonite??... I think not

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: October 17, 2021 14:00

Quote
ukcal

So will Mick or Keith mention this in LA tonite??

Probably .... see their 2016-Tweet: [Twitter.com] .

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Four Stone Walls ()
Date: October 17, 2021 16:28

Bill is right. He's only honouring his friend Brian. He's complaining about the council's wording.

He would also set the record straight if such a plaque were placed in his honour at Penge station.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-20 23:12 by Four Stone Walls.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: October 17, 2021 16:49

I agree the wording is so off.

"Rock bands"?

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: LeonidP ()
Date: October 17, 2021 19:58

Actually it is accurate. They did meet there, and went on to form the Rolling Stones -- it doesn't say that others weren't involved nor who came up w/ the name etc.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: More Hot Rocks ()
Date: October 17, 2021 20:11

Quote
LeonidP
Actually it is accurate. They did meet there, and went on to form the Rolling Stones -- it doesn't say that others weren't involved nor who came up w/ the name etc.

That is correct “to form” also means to be included

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Four Stone Walls ()
Date: October 17, 2021 20:42

Don't think so - how so? 'went on to include the Rolling Stones' ??

It means to create.Does here.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: ukcal ()
Date: October 18, 2021 11:46

Yes!! they did mention it, Mick and Keith came together at LA2 while the crew were looking for the 12 string!! before wild horses.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: October 18, 2021 11:50

Sixty years .....Amazing achievement ....



ROCKMAN

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: October 18, 2021 12:10

Quote
ukcal

Yes!! they did mention it, Mick and Keith came together at LA2 while the crew were looking for the 12 string!! before wild horses.



[www.YouTube.com] - (Pos. 33:35).

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: October 18, 2021 12:15


Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Green Lady ()
Date: October 18, 2021 13:35

Quote
Irix
Quote
ukcal

Yes!! they did mention it, Mick and Keith came together at LA2 while the crew were looking for the 12 string!! before wild horses.



[www.YouTube.com] - (Pos. 33:35).

From 32:25. Mick is out front ready to sing, but...

"Apparently we're missing a guitar. We've got about 75 guitars up here at least, but we can't find the one we want - there's too many. We can't find the 12-string! It was the No.2 guitar...Well, you'll have to do it with another one, then..."

So at that point, while everyone searches, Mick tells us about the meeting on Dartford station, until...

"Well, we've found A guitar. It's not the one we wanted, but... " and Wild Horses starts. Any guesses as to what Keith did finally use?

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: October 18, 2021 13:57

Quote
CaptainCorella
Quote
SomeTorontoGirl
and formed a musical friendship that would lead to the foundation of The Rolling Stones in 1962.

(Clarification... it's a quote from the BBC and not SomeTorontoGirl.)

As everyone here knows that is, of course, massively wrong and rewrites history.

Brian Jones founded the group!

It's doubly annoying because (following pre-publicity) I was in touch with the annoying Mr Kite and he had agreed that the Plaque would be worded differently and accurately. He's a politician, so he lied.

I even found someone willing to pay for a new plaque to replace the incorrect wording.

My guess is that "Mr. Kite" was actually a Beatles fan, who used the opportunity to p*ss off Rolling Stones fans.
Even though Bill wasn't there right from the beginning, he is, followed by Charlie, the closest inside member of the ultimate famous Rolling Stones, so his frustration should be respected.
At the same time Mick and Keith have a clear point too. Their train station renunion resulted in them and some other friends to start Little Boy Blue and the Blues Boys. As such that band wouldn't have ended up anywhere, but their (including Dick Taylor) passion for the Blues brought them to Alexis Korner's Blues oasis and there they met the even more Blues passionated Brian Jones. His, in those days also to Mick, Keith and Dick, musical skills triggered a meeting between the Blues Boys and Elmo Lewis, who was in the process of starting a R 'n B band and it was he who invited the Blues Boys to give it a try. THAT worked out great and, with the présence of Ian Stewart, eventually, again partly thanks to Alexis Korner, the Rollin' Stones came into existence, the name given by Brian.
History can't be changed by anybody, not now, not in the future. We're into the fourth generation of Rolling Stones fans and the true ones know and won't forget the history of their favorite band. Cheers!

smileys with beer

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Lady Jayne ()
Date: October 18, 2021 14:43

Quote
Irix

[Twitter.com]

Quite a lot of stomping about in separate carriages on the journey but, yes, a remarkable partnership. I never get the fuss about Brian Jones starting the band. The Glimmer Twins are the axis on which the band we know rests and always has done, the song-writing team, and that would have been the case, one way or the other, once they re-met. Frankly, I have always thought Andrew Loog Oldham was more important to the development of the Stones than Brian. (running for shelter...)

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: October 18, 2021 14:45

I'm still wondering how the actual date was confirmed (if it was)

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: October 18, 2021 16:10

Quote
Lady Jayne
... Frankly, I have always thought Andrew Loog Oldham was more important to the development of the Stones than Brian. (running for shelter...)


I don't think you're wrong.

Brian, of course, brought exquisite musicianship to the band ...

...but exquisite musicianship was not what brought success to aspiring young "beat groups" in those early 1960s.

Good fortune and a knack for selling an image were far more important grinning smiley

[With hard graft and dedication taken as givens ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-18 16:12 by Spud.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 18, 2021 16:46

Quote
Spud
Quote
Lady Jayne
... Frankly, I have always thought Andrew Loog Oldham was more important to the development of the Stones than Brian. (running for shelter...)


I don't think you're wrong.

Brian, of course, brought exquisite musicianship to the band ...

...but exquisite musicianship was not what brought success to aspiring young "beat groups" in those early 1960s.

Good fortune and a knack for selling an image were far more important grinning smiley

[With hard graft and dedication taken as givens ]

But at the same time, Brian was very important to them image-wise in the early days.

But I guess in Mick and Keith's book Brian and Andrew pretty much belong to the same category in their early history: they first needed them but once they any longer did not, they got rid of them. Both played a big role in helping Mick and Keith becoming themselves. And with that, the Stones to become what ever they are.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-18 16:47 by Doxa.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: October 18, 2021 18:02

... and that would have been the case, one way or the other ... Lady Jayne, means you don't see the total picture.

Oldham (who was sort of a publicity assistant to Beatles manager Epstein) was made aware of the existance of the Rollin' Stones, the London based Blues cover band. Without Brian's passion there would not have been a band named the Rollin' Stones. So in that situation Oldham would with a 99.99% chance NOT ever have met with Mick and Keith at any point anywhere. The local London reputation of those Rollin' Stones was already so powerful, that it even reached the ears of some of the Beatles (George Harrison) and Oldham surfaced in the lives of those "not even close to having a record contract" Stones. Once in, Oldham came up with the idea of Mick and Keith writing their own songs, simply because he was clever enough to see that if "his Stones" were to compete with the Beatles, songwriting was the only real option.
Real diehard fans know the kind of crap Mick and Keith started writing. The power of the Rollin' Stones as a band (Brian's band, to start with, even admitted by Mick and Keith; blues, blues, blues) gradually helped them (and also listening to many excisting blues/gospel songs, like the Staples Singers' "This could be the last time") to improve their song writing which eventually became the key to the Stones' enormous commercial success and made Mick and Keith the oh so important "high quality gasoline" that kept the band rolling for almost 60 years now. Remember what Keith said: "The best songwriters are those with the biggest record collection"

They were a powerful live band from the very start (even before Oldham showed up) and that has always been the "secret" magic of the Rolling Stones, and it's been like that ever since. Just quote Bobby Dylan ... they were and are and will always be the best ...

Mick, Keith, Ronnie ... we still love you ... forever!

smileys with beer

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: October 18, 2021 18:13

Quote
Nikkei
I'm still wondering how the actual date was confirmed (if it was)

Mick had entered the date in his PALM Pilot.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Lady Jayne ()
Date: October 18, 2021 18:29

A light hearted celebration of 60 years of Glimmer Twins

[uk.style.yahoo.com]

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Lady Jayne ()
Date: October 18, 2021 18:40

Quote
georgie48
... and that would have been the case, one way or the other ... Lady Jayne, means you don't see the total picture.

Oldham (who was sort of a publicity assistant to Beatles manager Epstein) was made aware of the existance of the Rollin' Stones, the London based Blues cover band. Without Brian's passion there would not have been a band named the Rollin' Stones. So in that situation Oldham would with a 99.99% chance NOT ever have met with Mick and Keith at any point anywhere. The local London reputation of those Rollin' Stones was already so powerful, that it even reached the ears of some of the Beatles (George Harrison) and Oldham surfaced in the lives of those "not even close to having a record contract" Stones. Once in, Oldham came up with the idea of Mick and Keith writing their own songs, simply because he was clever enough to see that if "his Stones" were to compete with the Beatles, songwriting was the only real option.
Real diehard fans know the kind of crap Mick and Keith started writing. The power of the Rollin' Stones as a band (Brian's band, to start with, even admitted by Mick and Keith; blues, blues, blues) gradually helped them (and also listening to many excisting blues/gospel songs, like the Staples Singers' "This could be the last time") to improve their song writing which eventually became the key to the Stones' enormous commercial success and made Mick and Keith the oh so important "high quality gasoline" that kept the band rolling for almost 60 years now. Remember what Keith said: "The best songwriters are those with the biggest record collection"

They were a powerful live band from the very start (even before Oldham showed up) and that has always been the "secret" magic of the Rolling Stones, and it's been like that ever since. Just quote Bobby Dylan ... they were and are and will always be the best ...

Mick, Keith, Ronnie ... we still love you ... forever!

smileys with beer

These 'Sliding Doors' arguments about 'what if?' can never be resolved but I find it hard to believe Mick and Keith wouldn't have formed a band with or without Brian. It might have been called something else, but it would have been blues influenced and ultimately the name is unimportant. Mick, in particular, was so obviously a star from the outset, and the blues world was so tiny in 1962, there is no way they wouldn't have ended up attracting attention and meeting Korner and Gomelesky etc. What is the DNA of the band we love is the music written by Mick and Keith - without that, Brian's covers band would have withered and died, even without his descent into addictions. Every moment and connection matters, of course, but the pivotal one was the meeting which threw Mick and Keith into each other paths with a bunch of records, I believe.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: October 18, 2021 18:55

Quote
Nikkei

I'm still wondering how the actual date was confirmed (if it was)

Mentioned in the 2003 Keith-Biography 'Satisfaction' by Christopher Sandford - [iorr.org] .

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: October 18, 2021 20:01

Quote
Lady Jayne
Quote
georgie48
... and that would have been the case, one way or the other ... Lady Jayne, means you don't see the total picture.

Oldham (who was sort of a publicity assistant to Beatles manager Epstein) was made aware of the existance of the Rollin' Stones, the London based Blues cover band. Without Brian's passion there would not have been a band named the Rollin' Stones. So in that situation Oldham would with a 99.99% chance NOT ever have met with Mick and Keith at any point anywhere. The local London reputation of those Rollin' Stones was already so powerful, that it even reached the ears of some of the Beatles (George Harrison) and Oldham surfaced in the lives of those "not even close to having a record contract" Stones. Once in, Oldham came up with the idea of Mick and Keith writing their own songs, simply because he was clever enough to see that if "his Stones" were to compete with the Beatles, songwriting was the only real option.
Real diehard fans know the kind of crap Mick and Keith started writing. The power of the Rollin' Stones as a band (Brian's band, to start with, even admitted by Mick and Keith; blues, blues, blues) gradually helped them (and also listening to many excisting blues/gospel songs, like the Staples Singers' "This could be the last time") to improve their song writing which eventually became the key to the Stones' enormous commercial success and made Mick and Keith the oh so important "high quality gasoline" that kept the band rolling for almost 60 years now. Remember what Keith said: "The best songwriters are those with the biggest record collection"

They were a powerful live band from the very start (even before Oldham showed up) and that has always been the "secret" magic of the Rolling Stones, and it's been like that ever since. Just quote Bobby Dylan ... they were and are and will always be the best ...

Mick, Keith, Ronnie ... we still love you ... forever!

smileys with beer

These 'Sliding Doors' arguments about 'what if?' can never be resolved but I find it hard to believe Mick and Keith wouldn't have formed a band with or without Brian. It might have been called something else, but it would have been blues influenced and ultimately the name is unimportant. Mick, in particular, was so obviously a star from the outset, and the blues world was so tiny in 1962, there is no way they wouldn't have ended up attracting attention and meeting Korner and Gomelesky etc. What is the DNA of the band we love is the music written by Mick and Keith - without that, Brian's covers band would have withered and died, even without his descent into addictions. Every moment and connection matters, of course, but the pivotal one was the meeting which threw Mick and Keith into each other paths with a bunch of records, I believe.

I agree with you in part, but ... the DNA of the Stones is not the songs written by Mick and Keith. They proved it themselves with Blue and Lonesome. That's where you hear the DNA of the Rolling Stones. The songs lifted them to global fame for sure, but the songs lean on the DNA and not the other way around.
Yes, without Mick and Keith meeting again at Dartford Station and starting with LBB and the Blues Boys, and without Alaxis Korner's Blues paradise attracting young blues lovers ... no Rolling Stones. But don't forget that the tape recordings of LBB and the Blues Boys were plain rubbish and never got the attention they were hoping for. So many musically inspired kids in the sixties met, brothers, school friends, etc. No one ever heard of them. The Pretty Things for instance ... wrong DNA. Them ... wrong DNA. First Yardbirds ... wrong DNA. Even The Animals ... wrong DNA (Burdon and Price were worlds apart). I love quite a few of the songs those bands made (with the Animals in the lead), nevertheless ... wrong DNA.
It's just as Brian said in an interview ... "tried everything, but when I met with Mick and Keith things started to work out" ...THAT's when the DNA of The Rolling Stones was born/formed. Bill and then Charlie (and before that off course Ian Stewart) helped to perfect the DNA and the songwriting made that DNA indestructible (well, you can say that after almost 60 years, right?).

I read all the reviews of the past six concerts and what I notice is the enormous power the (three remaining) Stones radiate on the fans. Great CONCERT, over and over again. Discussions about setlists, interesting off course, but the concert is what it's really all about ... the indestructible DNA!

Ah, I can't wait seeing them again cool smiley

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: bv ()
Date: October 18, 2021 21:21

Mick did mention the date last night at the LA-2 show, stating it was 60 years to the date since he met Keith at the Dartford train station.

Bjornulf

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Lady Jayne ()
Date: October 18, 2021 22:17

Quote
bv
Mick did mention the date last night at the LA-2 show, stating it was 60 years to the date since he met Keith at the Dartford train station.

That's nice to know. I saw from various social media quite a few of Mick and Keith's children were in for the show. I hope they all had a little celebration. 60 years friendship is phenomenal, in a band, almost unheard of.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: October 19, 2021 08:29

Brian was the spark that ignited the Rolling Stones, the forces that got them off the ground. The one who gathered players together for an R&B band. The musician who was ahead of them. Charlie said as much. Bill knows it. That he screwed up later is no excuse to rewrite history.

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