Received in my inbox and posted here by request.

Hi, My name is Jeremy and I’m the Leader of Dartford Council mentioned in some of the posts. I thought you might like an update direct from me about the plaque.


When the story first broke, it created a lot of publicity but, In truth, not many complaints - two from fans and one, via a BBC interview, from Mr Wyman.

Initially, we said we’d replace the plaque because upsetting people was the very last thing we ever wanted to do. Putting up the plaque was intended to be a nice thing, one of quite a few we have done to recognise the Rolling Stones since I became Leader.

I then listened to what Mr Wyman had actually said and it dawned on me that he might not have actually seen the plaque, nor received a proper description of it because if you listen to his BBC radio interview he quite wrongly suggests that the plaque says Mick Jagger and Keith Richards ‘created’ the Rolling Stones. He even ‘corrects’ the interviewer when she gives a fair description of the plaque’s use of the phrase ‘formed’, to say…

“and created, created the Rolling Stones. “

Mr Wyman’s comments are still available here [www.youtube.com]

In truth, the plaque doesn’t say anything like that. You don’t exactly get many words on a blue plaque and the ones on ours say that two Dartfordians went on to ‘form’ the band.

In the days and weeks that followed the initial publicity I heard from quite a few other people in our town and elsewhere who made it clear they liked the plaque, didn’t feel that it confused the origins of the band and felt it was a fuss about nothing. I also, of course, became aware of the comments made by Sir Mick and Keith (although we have never heard from them or anyone connected with them on the subject.) . Here’s what Keith reportedly told Esquire magazine ….

"I actually don't know exactly what it said, but Mick just the other day came up to me and says, 'do you believe this s***, man? Bill Wyman is complaining about the plaque at Dartford station.” "I said, 'A plaque? I thought we had a statue.’" "I know he took umbrage with [what the plaque said], but I can't understand why. Bill wasn't there when the band was formed. "I think Mick sent a note saying - because Bill comes from a town called Penge - 'Bill, if a plaque went up in Penge station that said you were the founding member of the Rolling Stones, do you think we'd complain?’

I guess it then comes down to the definition of the word ‘form’. Some are investing the word with connotations of ‘invention’ but I there are plenty of other interpretations in common use too . Cars can form a queue, footballers can form a team and yes, musicians can form a group. I suppose there may even be an argument that in the context of a band it’s not actually possible for one person to form anything. A band can surely only ‘form’ when others join. The bottom line is that we’re trying to put right what I thought was a bit of failure over many years to recognise the Stones’ contribution to culture and i think many would understand why our town would want to focus -entirely disproportionately - on two of it’s own townspeople. As Sir Mick has raised the point, perhaps the right thing to do is to persuade Brian Jones’ home town to celebrate his role as the ‘creator’ of the Rolling Stones. I would if it were up to me, but sadly it’s not. As for the Dartford Plaque, given the response I have had from local people I’m happy for it to stay but I can reassure every fan that the intention wasn’t to rewrite history. I appreciate that some won’t be happy with that.
I don’t think anyone could complain that we haven’t expressed our pride in our connection to the Stones since we took control and I’m sure we’ll be doing more. We’ve tried to do things of substance - naming real roads after their songs ( if you google it you’ll find that people do actually now live on Ruby Tuesday Drive here in Dartford, one of several Stones’ roads we’ve named ), erected a statue bench in the park and reproducing the story of the Stones on a number of Street plinths in the town. Incidentally, because we had more space on the plinths we go in to much more detail about the full history of the Stones than we could on a tiny plaque.

Incidentally if anyone ever does come to the Dartford on the trail of Stones history ( and I know some do ) it’s worth dropping me an email and in if I’m around and got a bit of time I’d be happy to say hello and walk you across the car park to the Station and the famous platform.

Thanks for your time and I hope you don’t mind me popping on to the forum. I’ll keep you informed if we name any more roads!


Jeremy

Leader, Dartford Council.


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2016-10-29 00:52 by Deltics.

Well, but, they still didn't form the band. Brian Jones did. And if some plaque were put up in Penge saying Bill Wyman formed The Rolling Stones, I honestly think he would be embaressed and again pointed out that it was indeed Brian Jones who was the founder. Bill Wyman cares about such details.

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The Worst.
Well, but, they still didn't form the band. Brian Jones did. And if some plaque were put up in Penge saying Bill Wyman formed The Rolling Stones, I honestly think he would be embaressed and again pointed out that it was indeed Brian Jones who was the founder. Bill Wyman cares about such details.

Agreed. None of it really addresses him breaking an undertaking.

I'll show Mr Kite's email to Bill. (Not something that's nice to do around someone's 80th birthday - bummer)

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-10-29 00:04 by CaptainCorella.

It could (or should) read: "went on to help the formation of the band after it was created by Brian Jones".

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Brian initiated and founded it, and Mick and Keith certainly were instrumental in forming the band into what it became.

How do you found a band that doesn't exist? Joe Strummer was the last of the original four members to join the Clash, but it wasn't the Clash until he joined. With the Sex Pistols, it was Wally Nightengale who was instrumental in putting together Glen Matlock and Steve Jones, but he didn't even wind up in the group, being replaced by John Lydon. Brian had an idea he wanted to have a blues group, and when Mick and Keith joined, there was one. Until then it was just a notion.

Mr Kite's english is not very precise, when cars form a queue it's all of them not just two.

If he's going retain the word form in that sense it should be 'Mick & Keith joined with Brian Jones & others and formed the Rolling Stones'.............

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TeddyB1018
How do you found a band that doesn't exist? Joe Strummer was the last of the original four members to join the Clash, but it wasn't the Clash until he joined. With the Sex Pistols, it was Wally Nightengale who was instrumental in putting together Glen Matlock and Steve Jones, but he didn't even wind up in the group, being replaced by John Lydon. Brian had an idea he wanted to have a blues group, and when Mick and Keith joined, there was one. Until then it was just a notion.

You found a band of musicians, the founding of a band is the drawing of people together to play......(laying the foundation......(I would say.........then if it's any good, then you name it.......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-10-29 01:32 by EddieByword.

He sounds like a decent man who is trying to do the right thing.
The wording is fine by me.
Remember the point of this is, as he says, to recognize the two 'Dartfordians'. Hmmm, could the Stones have been the 'Dartfordians.'.
TeddyB makes a good point. Brian wanted to form a band and had an idea for what it would play, but anybody with a guitar in England at that time wanted to form a band and the band wasn't 'formed' until all parties signed on.
As this particular plaque is meant to recognize the contribution of Mick and Keith, let's just roll with it.

If they keep it the way it is, there should be a large asterisk on it...

*Created and founded by original leader Brian Jones of Cheltenham

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

I agree with wonderboy, Jeremy kite sounds like a decent guy, trying to do the right thing.
Dartford council could of not bothered to do anything to recognise the glimmer twins, and the importance of the stones.
So I thank him for the effort, and I will make a trip to dartford in the near future. it's only 40 miles away from me.
My feeling is whatever's wrote on the plaque it never be right for some folk.

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EddieByword

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TeddyB1018
How do you found a band that doesn't exist? Joe Strummer was the last of the original four members to join the Clash, but it wasn't the Clash until he joined. With the Sex Pistols, it was Wally Nightengale who was instrumental in putting together Glen Matlock and Steve Jones, but he didn't even wind up in the group, being replaced by John Lydon. Brian had an idea he wanted to have a blues group, and when Mick and Keith joined, there was one. Until then it was just a notion.

You found a band of musicians, the founding of a band is the drawing of people together to play......(laying the foundation......(I would say.........then if it's any good, then you name it.......

Then Rick Rivets founded the New York Dolls.

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EddieByword
Mr Kite's english is not very precise, when cars form a queue it's all of them not just two.

If he's going retain the word form in that sense it should be 'Mick & Keith joined with Brian Jones & others and formed the Rolling Stones'.............

Actually, his point is that Brian is irrelevant to the plaque in Dartford. It could have said "helped form" the Rolling Stones, and that would have been more accurate.

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TeddyB1018

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EddieByword

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TeddyB1018
How do you found a band that doesn't exist? Joe Strummer was the last of the original four members to join the Clash, but it wasn't the Clash until he joined. With the Sex Pistols, it was Wally Nightengale who was instrumental in putting together Glen Matlock and Steve Jones, but he didn't even wind up in the group, being replaced by John Lydon. Brian had an idea he wanted to have a blues group, and when Mick and Keith joined, there was one. Until then it was just a notion.

You found a band of musicians, the founding of a band is the drawing of people together to play......(laying the foundation......(I would say.........then if it's any good, then you name it.......

Then Rick Rivets founded the New York Dolls.

I've never heard of Rick rivets so I'll take your word about that.....

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TeddyB1018

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EddieByword
Mr Kite's english is not very precise, when cars form a queue it's all of them not just two.

If he's going retain the word form in that sense it should be 'Mick & Keith joined with Brian Jones & others and formed the Rolling Stones'.............

Actually, his point is that Brian is irrelevant to the plaque in Dartford. It could have said "helped form" the Rolling Stones, and that would have been more accurate.

Well, if that's it, it's a spurious point, I mean the plaque is relevant to the Stones, Brian was ultra relevant to the Stones therefore, there's a logical and vaild connection worth a mention on the plaque....I would say,,,,

I reckon you're right about 'helped form'....that's a fair and inclusive way of putting it if they can't bring themselves to actually mention him directly..........

I don't see the size of the plaque should be a limiting factor on the wording, after all Dartford station is fairly big place with plenty of wall space..............ie. Adverts 4 foot x 3 foot everywhere........



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2016-10-29 06:22 by EddieByword.

Helped form it is then! Now if we can only get Mr. Kite on board.

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TeddyB1018
Helped form it is then! Now if we can only get Mr. Kite on board.

Then all we'll need is for him to rename the drinking quarter as 'Too much blood Boulevard' and the High st where all the Homeless people congregate at night as 'Gimme Shelter st'...............



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2016-10-29 06:27 by EddieByword.

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EddieByword
Mr Kite's english is not very precise, when cars form a queue it's all of them not just two.

If he's going retain the word form in that sense it should be 'Mick & Keith joined with Brian Jones & others and formed the Rolling Stones'.............

(For the benefit of mr. Kite: )

Two 's a Queue on my Cloud, baby.

(Sorry; I just couldn't resist. ;o) I just hope nobody beat me to it! =o))

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RoughJusticeOnYa

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EddieByword
Mr Kite's english is not very precise, when cars form a queue it's all of them not just two.

If he's going retain the word form in that sense it should be 'Mick & Keith joined with Brian Jones & others and formed the Rolling Stones'.............

(For the benefit of mr. Kite: )

Two 's a Queue on my Cloud, baby.

(Sorry; I just couldn't resist. ;o) I just hope nobody beat me to it! =o))

I was thinking about it, but I thought someone else should have the honour

Good manners, as required by BV, prevent me from being a frank as I'd like to be.

When this first came up, pre-plaque, I picked up that Mr Kite had been reported as saying that Mick & Keith formed the band, found his email address and contacted him.

He replied very quickly saying (I could find the email if needed) that the moment he "mis-spoke" to the journalist he knew it was wrong.

About a year later when there was publicity about the plaque going up I contacted him again and reminded him of his "mis-speech".

Not only did he email me that he'd put it right, he undertook on the radio to do it, and told Bill that he would.

I got Mr Kite some funding so that he could do it at no cost to the good people of Dartford.

He's a Conservative politician. Read his email and don't be in the least surprised.

If he put as much effort into righting a wrong as he's putting into not meeting his undertakings, then it would be done without further ado.

The ONLY angle where he has a point is that getting the wording right on a small plaque is not simple. Good wording has appeared earlier in this thread.

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

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DandelionPowderman

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RoughJusticeOnYa

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EddieByword
Mr Kite's english is not very precise, when cars form a queue it's all of them not just two.

If he's going retain the word form in that sense it should be 'Mick & Keith joined with Brian Jones & others and formed the Rolling Stones'.............

(For the benefit of mr. Kite: )

Two 's a Queue on my Cloud, baby.

(Sorry; I just couldn't resist. ;o) I just hope nobody beat me to it! =o))

I was thinking about it, but I thought someone else should have the honour

Always the gentleman! dear, dear Dandy...

I like the idea of "helped form the band". Also I agree Jeremy seems like a stand up kind of guy, trying to do the right thing. Another good point is not everyone is likely to be satisfied no matter what the plaque says. I'm hoping Brian will be recognized in his home town. Maybe Mick and Keith or even Bill could help this happen. That would make everything right in my opinion.

It's very good of Jeremy to care! Thanks and praises to Deltics too for conveying the message.
Phrasing like "and became founding members of the Rolling Stones" might soothe whoever needs soothing. Or not

Frankotero, Brian has been recognized in his home town, with a bust that most people find ...
well, never mind! But recognition it is

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RoughJusticeOnYa

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EddieByword
Mr Kite's english is not very precise, when cars form a queue it's all of them not just two.

If he's going retain the word form in that sense it should be 'Mick & Keith joined with Brian Jones & others and formed the Rolling Stones'.............

(For the benefit of mr. Kite: )

Two 's a Queue on my Cloud, baby.

(Sorry; I just couldn't resist. ;o) I just hope nobody beat me to it! =o))

Ahem..........crowd on my cloud,,,,,,,,,, .........good one though.........