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Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Topi ()
Date: October 19, 2021 09:16

But the point here is that Mick and Keith still met 60 years ago, right?

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: October 19, 2021 10:00

Quote
Topi
But the point here is that Mick and Keith still met 60 years ago, right?[/quote

Not really. They reunited, after knowing each other since they were like 5 years old. They just hadn't seen each other in a while.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Topi ()
Date: October 19, 2021 10:38

I meant they met at the station on that date. smiling smiley I know they used to go to the same primary school.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: October 19, 2021 11:02

Quote
Doxa
Quote
Spud
Quote
Lady Jayne
... Frankly, I have always thought Andrew Loog Oldham was more important to the development of the Stones than Brian. (running for shelter...)


I don't think you're wrong.

Brian, of course, brought exquisite musicianship to the band ...

...but exquisite musicianship was not what brought success to aspiring young "beat groups" in those early 1960s.

Good fortune and a knack for selling an image were far more important grinning smiley

[With hard graft and dedication taken as givens ]

But at the same time, Brian was very important to them image-wise in the early days.

But I guess in Mick and Keith's book Brian and Andrew pretty much belong to the same category in their early history: they first needed them but once they any longer did not, they got rid of them. Both played a big role in helping Mick and Keith becoming themselves. And with that, the Stones to become what ever they are.

- Doxa

I wouldn't argue with any of that ,

Brian was an equally big "star player"....and probably that very important "pretty boy" of the band in those early days.

But Andrew was the "coach" who initially set their trajectory towards challenging the Beatles for the Premier League title, rather than just competing mid table .

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: saltoftheearth ()
Date: October 19, 2021 12:19

From all we know there can be no doubt that Brian Jones was the driving force behind the Rolling Stones in the early days. And then there was the marketing strategy by Andrew Loog Oldham.

If you state that it was all Mick and Keith's merits that is seen from hindsight. And I do think that there were many accidental events in the band's carreer which made their success lasting. There were many other bands as successful (for instance Gerry and the Pacemakers) which vanished from the scene because they were not as lucky as the Rolling Stones.

The Stones could have vanished in the late 1960s, and in this case they would be remembered by only a few people as a golden oldies band.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-19 12:20 by saltoftheearth.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: CaptainCorella ()
Date: October 20, 2021 00:22

It's shocking that here, of all places, the myth of Jagger/Richards setting up the Rolling Stones is allowed to carry on.

Brian Jones founded the group.

For non-native-english speakers the word "foundation" means "the action of establishing an institution or organization"... and that's what Brian did.

That is utterly and unequivocally the case.

Equally, had Mick & Keith not joined the band, then I'm equally sure that their success, domination and longevity would not have happened, and they can rightly be credited with how GREAT the band has become.

But the foundation was Brian's.

--
Captain Corella
59+ Years a Fan

Re: October 17, 1961
Date: October 20, 2021 00:37

Probably some sort of "the winner takes it all" mentality by the Glimmers.Top PR businessmen bragging out a misleading tweet in favour of themselves, just to sell as many tickets as possible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-20 01:02 by TheflyingDutchman.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Blueranger ()
Date: October 20, 2021 02:54

Quote
CaptainCorella
It's shocking that here, of all places, the myth of Jagger/Richards setting up the Rolling Stones is allowed to carry on.

Brian Jones founded the group.

For non-native-english speakers the word "foundation" means "the action of establishing an institution or organization"... and that's what Brian did.

That is utterly and unequivocally the case.

Equally, had Mick & Keith not joined the band, then I'm equally sure that their success, domination and longevity would not have happened, and they can rightly be credited with how GREAT the band has become.

But the foundation was Brian's.

No, Brian did not form the group.
He hired Ian Stewart.
Then he met Keith & Mick, who had their own group going, through Alexis Korner and together they formed the group which Brian rightly named The Rollin’ Stones.

A little investigation on the history would be nice, instead of rolling along with that old myth spun by Bill Wyman, who wasn’t even there when it happend.

Here it is, black on white, in Brian’s own words from April 1963:

“ The band is really an amalgamation of two bands. The one being an R & B band I formed about a year ago, and the other being a group run by Mick and Keith in S.E. London. I was introduced to Keith and we decided to pool our resources, so with Stu from my band, and Mick from Keith’s we became the nucleus of the “Stones.”

Link to the letter:
[www.bonhams.com]

So there. Could we now close the book on that old myth?
Brian did NOT form the group.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Lady Jayne ()
Date: October 20, 2021 09:59

Quote
Blueranger
Quote
CaptainCorella
It's shocking that here, of all places, the myth of Jagger/Richards setting up the Rolling Stones is allowed to carry on.

Brian Jones founded the group.

For non-native-english speakers the word "foundation" means "the action of establishing an institution or organization"... and that's what Brian did.

That is utterly and unequivocally the case.

Equally, had Mick & Keith not joined the band, then I'm equally sure that their success, domination and longevity would not have happened, and they can rightly be credited with how GREAT the band has become.

But the foundation was Brian's.

No, Brian did not form the group.
He hired Ian Stewart.
Then he met Keith & Mick, who had their own group going, through Alexis Korner and together they formed the group which Brian rightly named The Rollin’ Stones.

A little investigation on the history would be nice, instead of rolling along with that old myth spun by Bill Wyman, who wasn’t even there when it happend.

Here it is, black on white, in Brian’s own words from April 1963:

“ The band is really an amalgamation of two bands. The one being an R & B band I formed about a year ago, and the other being a group run by Mick and Keith in S.E. London. I was introduced to Keith and we decided to pool our resources, so with Stu from my band, and Mick from Keith’s we became the nucleus of the “Stones.”

Link to the letter:
[www.bonhams.com]

So there. Could we now close the book on that old myth?
Brian did NOT form the group.

Thanks for posting this and the link to the letter. I have never seen it before. Fascinating.

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: Green Lady ()
Date: October 20, 2021 10:45

Quote
Lady Jayne
Quote
Blueranger
Quote
CaptainCorella
It's shocking that here, of all places, the myth of Jagger/Richards setting up the Rolling Stones is allowed to carry on.

Brian Jones founded the group.

For non-native-english speakers the word "foundation" means "the action of establishing an institution or organization"... and that's what Brian did.

That is utterly and unequivocally the case.

Equally, had Mick & Keith not joined the band, then I'm equally sure that their success, domination and longevity would not have happened, and they can rightly be credited with how GREAT the band has become.

But the foundation was Brian's.

No, Brian did not form the group.
He hired Ian Stewart.
Then he met Keith & Mick, who had their own group going, through Alexis Korner and together they formed the group which Brian rightly named The Rollin’ Stones.

A little investigation on the history would be nice, instead of rolling along with that old myth spun by Bill Wyman, who wasn’t even there when it happend.

Here it is, black on white, in Brian’s own words from April 1963:

“ The band is really an amalgamation of two bands. The one being an R & B band I formed about a year ago, and the other being a group run by Mick and Keith in S.E. London. I was introduced to Keith and we decided to pool our resources, so with Stu from my band, and Mick from Keith’s we became the nucleus of the “Stones.”

Link to the letter:
[www.bonhams.com]

So there. Could we now close the book on that old myth?
Brian did NOT form the group.

Thanks for posting this and the link to the letter. I have never seen it before. Fascinating.

That isn't all of the letter - clearly the reverse sides of sheets 1-4 weren't included in the auction photographs (Edit: a transcript of the full text can be found by scrolling down from the photos). I haven't ever seen it before either. I wonder who bought it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-20 11:04 by Green Lady.

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Date: October 20, 2021 11:21

Where is His Majesty when we need him ? smoking smiley

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Date: October 20, 2021 11:45

Keywords here are forming and founding.

Brian founded what became the Stones. However, Mick and Keith were essential in forming the Stones.

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Date: October 20, 2021 11:54

So no Brian no Rolling Stones, in hindsight ?

Re: October 17, 1961
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: October 20, 2021 13:45

Quote
Blueranger
Quote
CaptainCorella
It's shocking that here, of all places, the myth of Jagger/Richards setting up the Rolling Stones is allowed to carry on.

Brian Jones founded the group.

For non-native-english speakers the word "foundation" means "the action of establishing an institution or organization"... and that's what Brian did.
M
That is utterly and unequivocally the case.

Equally, had Mick & Keith not joined the band, then I'm equally sure that their success, domination and longevity would not have happened, and they can rightly be credited with how GREAT the band has become.

But the foundation was Brian's.

No, Brian did not form the group.
He hired Ian Stewart.
Then he met Keith & Mick, who had their own group going, through Alexis Korner and together they formed the group which Brian rightly named The Rollin’ Stones.

A little investigation on the history would be nice, instead of rolling along with that old myth spun by Bill Wyman, who wasn’t even there when it happend.

Here it is, black on white, in Brian’s own words from April 1963:

“ The band is really an amalgamation of two bands. The one being an R & B band I formed about a year ago, and the other being a group run by Mick and Keith in S.E. London. I was introduced to Keith and we decided to pool our resources, so with Stu from my band, and Mick from Keith’s we became the nucleus of the “Stones.”

Link to the letter:
[www.bonhams.com]

So there. Could we now close the book on that old myth?
Brian did NOT form the group.

That last sentence is YOUR conclusion. The letter dates from May 1963 and is merely a summary of the past by Brian, making the whole becoming of the Rolling Stones look interesting. Bill and Charlie were there too around the time he wrote the letter.
To start with, Brian did NOT hire Ian Stewart. Brian did not have any money to pay him. And pay him for what? Ian responded on a add by Brian and came to that infamous location, the White Bear Pub, to try out music with Brian. THERE WAS NO BAND AT THAT TIME. Brian's "I met with Keith" was placing Keith at a platform. He did not "meet with Keith" as such. Mick and Dick were there too and Brian INVITED them. At the rehearsal location at least two other invited Blues freaks, Brian Knight and Geoff Bradford, also came along to practice the blues.
Those two guys didn't like Keith's Chuck Berry kind of music and Keith ideas of the kind of "blues" they should play (not authentic blues to them) and Brian eventually DECIDED to go along with Mick, Keith and Dick. Actually Keith apparently said that he wanted Mick or else "there was no deal".
Only AFTER CHOOSING for Keith, Mick and Dick, who accepted to play bass, one could speak of "a kind of a band". Don't forget that Mick Avory was there a couple of times as the desparately needed drummer. As Mick Avory has stated many times, he "NEVER WAS PART OF A BAND, LET BE THE ROLLIN' STONES, HE JUST CAME ALONG TO GIVE IT A TRY".
After the disagreement with Geoff Bradford and Brian Knight BRIAN DECIDED to go along with Mick, Keith and Dick. Originally Brian didn't even want Mick as a singer, preferring his friend Paul Jones (later Manfred Mann), but the latter had already well ahead told that he was not interested in a serious career in a blues band. Keith and Mick were already glued, so it had to be both of them. In the May 1963 letter there is no mentioning of for instance Tony Chapman or any of the other briefly stand-in drummers, who played with The Rollin' Stones "a lot" considering the very limited number of performances in the late 1962 period.
Obviously that kind of history Brian did not want an enthousiastic fan, to be bothered with. So he came up with the more interesting "merching of two bands", also to please Mick and Keith. In May 1963 the band (meanwhile with G) already was "settled". For Brian, with all his uncertainties, it was important to keep those he needed, happy. A typical part of Brian's character.
BRIAN JONES is the sole founder of the band (admitted by Keith and Mick themselves!) and yes, Ian helped him, if only because Ian wasn't in authentic Blues (too many minor chords, so no Bradford and Knight) and yes, Mick and Keith (among the others over the decades), both as excellent performers and great songwriters, eventually made the band immortal.
There is no myth, only the truth cool smiley

Long live The Rolling Stones!
smileys with beer

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: CaptainCorella ()
Date: October 20, 2021 14:19

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Keywords here are forming and founding.

Brian founded what became the Stones. However, Mick and Keith were essential in forming the Stones.

I really like that construction. It places the right aspects of the credit in the right places. Well done.

--
Captain Corella
59+ Years a Fan

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: SomeTorontoGirl ()
Date: October 20, 2021 14:24

Damn. I was hoping this thread would celebrate the Stones, what they have done and have meant to us, rather than rehashing the wording of the plaque.

I first heard Around And Around and was dancing in my little sock feet before I was 5, and it felt so wild and joyful, but music wasn’t a big part of my life. Then I was dragged to see At The Max and had that same feeling of joy. Next came the SARS concert, where I was sitting so far back that the curvature of the earth made them impossible to see but that joy was there. Then came travelling to gigs. Then I found myself at the Shine A Light press conference in New York and ended up stuck with all 4 of them in a hallway for 5 minutes. Then I started meeting some of the most gloriously demented fans and seeing them again and again, sharing drinks and stories and a few drinks. My first Pit experience in Paris ruined me for any other seats. And 2 massive IORR Band gigs before shows in Amsterdam and London were excellent preludes to 2 Stones shows. Now … 2021 and 60 years later they are tight, joyful and still putting on some of their best shows (and yes, amid losses and illnesses, and both the best and worst of times). We are so lucky to still have this. And bless Brian, Bill, Charlie, Stu, Ronnie and Mick T, the chance meeting on that platform 60 years ago was the start for Mick and Keith and, eventually, they merged and morphed and grew into the Stones we love. To borrow shamelessly from with sssoul, there should be thanks and praises and confetti all over the damn place!


Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: Lady Jayne ()
Date: October 20, 2021 16:26

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl
Damn. I was hoping this thread would celebrate the Stones, what they have done and have meant to us, rather than rehashing the wording of the plaque.

I first heard Around And Around and was dancing in my little sock feet before I was 5, and it felt so wild and joyful, but music wasn’t a big part of my life. Then I was dragged to see At The Max and had that same feeling of joy. Next came the SARS concert, where I was sitting so far back that the curvature of the earth made them impossible to see but that joy was there. Then came travelling to gigs. Then I found myself at the Shine A Light press conference in New York and ended up stuck with all 4 of them in a hallway for 5 minutes. Then I started meeting some of the most gloriously demented fans and seeing them again and again, sharing drinks and stories and a few drinks. My first Pit experience in Paris ruined me for any other seats. And 2 massive IORR Band gigs before shows in Amsterdam and London were excellent preludes to 2 Stones shows. Now … 2021 and 60 years later they are tight, joyful and still putting on some of their best shows (and yes, amid losses and illnesses, and both the best and worst of times). We are so lucky to still have this. And bless Brian, Bill, Charlie, Stu, Ronnie and Mick T, the chance meeting on that platform 60 years ago was the start for Mick and Keith and, eventually, they merged and morphed and grew into the Stones we love. To borrow shamelessly from with sssoul, there should be thanks and praises and confetti all over the damn place!

I loved reading your thoughts above. I think we all have our own versions of the Stones which mean the most to us from our own experiences. Mick and Keith had their fateful meeting before I was even born, but because they are central figures in the band I have followed since 1979, and because they wrote the songs, in particular, in that great run of classic albums between 1968-1972, I still get a chill down my spine whenever I pass that plaque at Dartford station. Brian, on the other hand, died while I was still a tot and played no real part in the periods of the band that mean the most to me. One of my best friends, by contrast, who is older, was a teeny bopper fan back in the days of girls screaming and remembers Brian as her favourite. Her version of the Stones was never the same after he left!

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 20, 2021 16:38

Someone was saying that the Stones have been lucky. That's true for sure, but their success involves other factors as well (talent, determination, ambition, etc.)

But if there ever been luck, a happy co-incidence that is, it was that Mick was carrying those Berry and Muddy albums when he rushed into Keith at Dartford Station in a given day... Had he not, those old school friends might just said hello to each other, and walked away...

It is music that brought the Twins together, and what keeps them together...

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-20 16:38 by Doxa.

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: Topi ()
Date: October 20, 2021 16:41

Luck is preparation meeting opportunity, eh? winking smiley

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Date: October 20, 2021 19:03

I'll just stay behind the old complaining sour Bill Wyman.grinning smiley

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: Lady Jayne ()
Date: October 20, 2021 19:34

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
I'll just stay behind the old complaining sour Bill Wyman.grinning smiley

[www.bbc.co.uk]

I don't think the wording of the plaque has been changed. I've got a photo from 2018 when it remained the same. What do Dartford care about Brian Jones?

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: runaway ()
Date: October 20, 2021 20:06

Quote
Lady Jayne
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
I'll just stay behind the old complaining sour Bill Wyman.grinning smiley

[www.bbc.co.uk]

I don't think the wording of the plaque has been changed. I've got a photo from 2018 when it remained the same. What do Dartford care about Brian Jones?


When the train come in the station. Let's celebrate the longevity of The Rolling Stones and the ones who were close to this great band.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-21 07:43 by runaway.

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: CaptainCorella ()
Date: October 20, 2021 23:45

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
I'll just stay behind the old complaining sour Bill Wyman.grinning smiley

[www.bbc.co.uk]

What's the date of that sound clip? My recollection is that it's the old stuff. But the plaque is unchanged.

I guess I'm the person Mr Kite talks about who wrote to him! He conveniently omits the offer of funding.

Edit: Sound clip from 2015. If the plaque is unchanged then Mr Kite has broken a promise he gave on air. Perhaps someone in the UK could contact the 5Live presenters and get them to chase this recalcitrant elected official.

--
Captain Corella
59+ Years a Fan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-20 23:48 by CaptainCorella.

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Date: October 20, 2021 23:47

Quote
CaptainCorella

What's the date of that sound clip? My recollection is that it's the old stuff. But the plaque is unchanged.

I guess I'm the person Mr Kite talks about who wrote to him!

I think 2015.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-20 23:53 by TheflyingDutchman.

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: schillid ()
Date: October 21, 2021 04:12


Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: October 21, 2021 04:41

Quote
schillid

I didn't know they had drone cameras in those days schillid?!

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: schillid ()
Date: October 21, 2021 04:46

Quote
treaclefingers
I didn't know they had drone cameras in those days

WARNING: FAKE PHOTOHOP IMAGE

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: Cooltoplady ()
Date: October 21, 2021 06:17

It’s probably been written but where were Mick and Keith going? And when was the next time they met? Weeks? Days?

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: Big Al ()
Date: October 21, 2021 06:30

Quote
Cooltoplady
It’s probably been written but where were Mick and Keith going? And when was the next time they met? Weeks? Days?

I’m unsure whether they met on the platform, or onboard the train. However, I suspect Mick may have been on his way to or from, the London School of Economics, whilst Keith was on his way to Sidcup Art College.

Re: Dartford Train Station Mick & Keith October 17, 1961
Posted by: Paddy ()
Date: October 21, 2021 06:36

Quote
Cooltoplady
It’s probably been written but where were Mick and Keith going? And when was the next time they met? Weeks? Days?

[www.nme.com]

“ Richards was traveling to Sidcup Art College carrying his guitar on the day they met, while Jagger was en route to the London School of Economics carrying some records. The next year, they formed The Rolling Stones”

Not sure of the next time they met.... Did Keith borrow one of the 2 albums Mick had, he would have to meet him to give it back if so, or did he meet Mick to listen to them with him.... They all seemed to find each other or know of each other through Alexis Korner and his gigs/open Mike nights.

I think it’s covered in according to the rolling stones... been a while since I read it

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