bravo, Vox12String, bravo! great work, great photos - thank you!

Now we've got this, anyone else got any pix of Brian with the Burns?

Given the riotous behaviour at these early gigs, I wonder if they tried using their non-fave guitars in the expectation of being mobbed & so if the equipment got damaged it wouldn't be such a great loss to them?

>> I wonder if they tried using their non-fave guitars in the expectation of being mobbed
so if the equipment got damaged it wouldn't be such a great loss to them? <<

that's what i was theorizing over on Keith's thread too. when you posted the Manchester shot, BrownEyedGirll noticed
that gig was just a couple of weeks after that Blackpool scene where the Glaswegians went berserk and trashed everything -
which might indeed be connected with the Stones' unusual choice of instruments at subsequent shows.

i will certainly keep an eye out for shots of Brian with that Burns!
and continued bravos for the brilliant detective work - very very well done indeed!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-11-15 18:27 by with sssoul.

Egad, I have that burns-baldwin myself, and I didn't recognize it! Granted, I only found the body, so I had a new, fender-style neck put on, and I replaced the tailpiece. Those pickups have an enormous sound... wonder if brian recorded anything with it. Is it knownwhat he used on "The Last Time"?

cc

I always thought the hallowbody brian used in 1968 or 1969 was a gibson.

Yes the thin body semi-acoustic is a Gibson, the Maton is more similar to his Gretsch in size & only one cutaway.

Now what is this 12 string, can't figure out the name. It isn't Keith's Harmony, the tuning heads are different. I'm guessing Epiphone.

[/URL]
found it here [home.tiscali.nl]

reviving this very worthwhile thread in hopes that someone here might know where this photo of Brian with the Maton came from:


- 69? 68? possibly by Eric Hayes; courtesy of Vox12string

the good Vox12string sent to me, but doesn't remember where he found it, and (as a result of causes) i'd love to track down what book(s) it's in,
who took it, etc. thanks for any help - and have some popcorn. :E



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2009-07-28 22:55 by with sssoul.

I think the guitar in the Dezo 63 shot is a Harmony Rocket...I used to have the same guitar....it was AWESOME through a super reverb fender amp.

JR

>> the guitar in the Dezo 63 shot <<

here's a cool Harmony database where you can check out the model, Stone-Relics:
[demont.net]
i think Brian's got a Stratotone Mars in that shot, but ... what do i know.

Soul, I believe that photo comes from the Beggars sessions in May, 1968. Brian might have used that semi-acoustic Maton to record No Expectations, though I am not sure. Of course, the events of Brian's life, particularly from 1968 to 1969, are hazy and there are an increasing number of rumors that BJ played nothing on BB (some people are now saying Ry Cooder played the slide on NE). How perceptions have changed over the years . . .

I've got an original 6-string Teardrop!

Sorry... cpuldn't resist.

>> Soul, I believe that photo comes from the Beggars sessions in May, 1968. <<

thank you Neptune my dear - the question of the date of the photo is interesting indeed,
but in fact what i'm looking for right now is what book (or whatever) the photo is in -
it's kind of a long story, but it would be great if anyone could let me know where that shot's been published.

the shots that Maton appears in are mystifying in assorted ways.
i wonder if the one Brian's got here is the same one Keith talks about using on Gimmie Shelter -
i don't think i've ever seen any other Maton in the Stones' hands, and there are shots of Brian, Mick and Keith with what looks like this same one.
the shots are usually associated with Beggars, but [scratching head] ... i'm pretty sure at least some of them are from the LIB sessions.
it's a long story, and this is probably not the right thread for it.
but if anyone has a book with this photo of Brian in it i'd be real grateful to hear about it - thanks!

Here ya go soullyyy...
Beggars session but probably a little later on than above shot?....same shirt/scarf but jacket has been discarded...


No credits listed....



ROCKMAN

thanks Rockman my dear - now can you tell me where you found it? i am lookin for specific publishers' names and so on ...
don't worry, it's not a trap or anything! :E
and the question about the picture i posted above still stands, if anyone can help.
thanks!

Where I found it....In a second hand book shop some 10-15 years back.

It's a nice lil French publication called The Book Of Rolling Stones 1978...has a fair dose of rare shots...probably long out of print?

AND it looks like you've hit pay dirt with that Keith/Joint shot you were tracking...just noticed it...





ROCKMAN

well ... pay dirt is as pay dirt does: that photo is in Bill's book too; i know it's always associated with the Beggars sessions,
but i think that's wrong. this isn't the right thread for this, though, so ...
so thank you kindly for the publication information, and have some popcorn. :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-04-24 09:34 by with sssoul.

About those two Brian pictures above with Maton guitar. Due his clothes and hair (one Brian expert in other site told this) they belong to the Let It Bleed sessions era. Keith says that he played "Gimme Shelter" with that guitar (until it broke down, as the dramatic story-teller Keith likes to tell). It is also quite much reported that Brian contributed next to nothing in Let It Bleed. However, in those very photos Brian is playing the guitar, and with even that capo that seems to suit very well to the intro of "Gimme Shelter". Perhaps that is barely a co-incidence, but in any case, there is something that needs explication here. I have always believed that the very intro is Keith's greatest achievement in a record, but now those photos seem to rise a doubt to that.

Now, Stones and guitar experts, explain this anomaly away!

- Doxa

Doxa, my thought too. Probably not the case at all but Keith lies or tells stories if you like. It would not surprise me if he played GS and Brian picked up the Maton which inspired Keith. Maybe the tremolo I dunno. Brian played things, Bill too and Taylor and wood as well. And they dont get credits so why not. Billy Preston wrote the Miss you riff. Ry Cooder may very well have written parts too, why not.

It's a big step from one picture of a capo in the A-position to a conspiracy theory about who played what and bla bla. The Stones spent months in the studio in the late '60's and recorded dozens and dozens of songs, including outtakes and jams. Who knows what Brian is playing on this pic? A capo on the second fret most of the times means open tuning, and Brians’ fretting position in the second pic definitively shows an open tuning. In that case, the capo is in the wrong key for Gimme Shelter.

The pictures with the Maton stem from a press-session in February 1969. Jagger invited the press to the Olympic studio in order to inform the press on the current situation of the Stones. They were making an album ("we call it Sticky Fingers" Jagger mentioned), they were planning to tour etc. The Stones played some music while photographers snapped away. Some pics seem staged to me in order to have good pics. There's pics of the band standing next to eachother while playing and that would not make sense. Also the above pic of Brian, singing and playing, has always looked strange to me. Brian's role within the Stones in February '69 was gone, and here he is, singing and playing a new tune. I have always thought that was strange. The sessions in February would also prove to Brian's last session, and he most probably only recorded autoharp on You Got the Silver.

There was a remark about the Stones using cheap guitars especially for the possibility of being mobbed on stage. I think there is another reason for the Stones using cheap guitars until late '64: good guitars were simply not available in Britain up to early '65. Britain laid tax restrictions on imported goods in order to protect their own market up to (I believe) 1961. Before this, Fender and Gibson guitars (the only two makers that were of really good quality) were hardly, if ever, imported to England (Gretsch was a bit better available as their drum set line was imported to Germany and then send to Britain). So an English guitarist simply had to play cheaper Silvertones, Kays, Burns and what more. It wasn't until the first US tour that the Stones were able to buy Fender and Gibson guitars. Starting from early '64, music shops in London (Denmark Street) and Liverpool (Music Ground) started to import (mostly) second hand American guitars, and this is the moment that you see English players like the Stones, Clapton, Page, Green, Taylor suddenly playing Les Pauls and Strats.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-08-20 16:30 by Mathijs.

Thanks Mathijs! I knew there is some 'natural' explanation for those pics to exist. Do you mind if I copy and paste your answer to LARS board?

- Doxa

Several months later...

If the Maton guitar Brian was playing was tuned to open D and with the capo on the 2nd fret, that would be an ideal set up for playing the rhythm for Gimme Shelter.

I dont think that's what they are playing though, just thought I'd say.

>> and here he is, singing and playing a new tune. <<

well, with all due respect, he might be talking, yawning or simply have his mouth open.
for what it's worth, Eric Hayes, who took at least some of the photos of Brian with the Maton,
wrote that Brian was pretty uninvolved in what the band was doing in the studio while he was there.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> and here he is, singing and playing a new tune.
> <<
>
> well, with all due respect, he might be talking,
> yawning or simply have his mouth open.
> for what it's worth, Eric Hayes, who took at least
> some of the photos of Brian with the Maton,
> wrote that Brian was pretty uninvolved in what the
> band was doing in the studio while he was there.

Yeah, just looks like he's rocking out with the rest of the band, or atleast trying to.

[perking ears:] oh, is the whole band rocking out in that shot? i didn't hear them.

sorry, i don't mean to be snide, just: is there really a way to know what was going on
when those shots were taken?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-02-03 19:08 by with sssoul.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> oh, is the whole band rocking out in that shot? i
> didn't hear them.
>
> sorry, i don't mean to be snide, just: is there
> really a way to know what was going on
> when those shots were taken?

Ouch!

I took 'uninvolved' to mean the band were atleast playing at some point! He'd have nothing to be uninvolved in if they werent't doing anything!?

But very true, we known nothing of what is going on at the time of shooting.

Can this Eric Hayes be contacted?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-02-03 19:08 by His Majesty.

yeah, he can be contacted, HM. :E

and i didn't mean the rest of the band did nothing the entire time Hayes was there -
which i suspect you understand quite beautifully :E -
i just mean that all i see in those particular photos is Brian sitting on the floor with a guitar,
so i don't feel i have any basis to conclude he was singing, or engrossed in rehearsing/recording
at the exact moments those shots were taken. or that he wasn't.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-02-03 21:03 by with sssoul.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yeah, he can be contacted, HM. :E
>
> and i didn't mean the rest of the band did nothing
> the entire time Hayes was there -
> which i suspect you understand quite beautifully
> :E -
> i just mean that all i see in those particular
> photos is Brian sitting on the floor with a
> guitar,
> so i don't feel i have any basis to conclude he
> was singing, or engrossed in rehearsing/recording
> at the moments those shots were taken. or that he
> wasn't.

Groovy!

I think Keith is most definitely smoking though! haha...

Hey the stones were taking off like a 707 at that time. It's a bummer looking at some of those pictures of Brian like mick said,he was totally gone,they would put aguitar in his hand and Brian would say are you recording me they would say yeah were recording yah Brian. Who know's what he was playing,if anything at all.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> and here he is, singing and playing a new tune.
> <<
>
> well, with all due respect, he might be talking,
> yawning or simply have his mouth open.
> for what it's worth, Eric Hayes, who took at least
> some of the photos of Brian with the Maton,
> wrote that Brian was pretty uninvolved in what the
> band was doing in the studio while he was there.

I didn't intend to state it as a fact, I merely described what my feelings was about that picture. I have always found it a strange picture -here's Brian at work, with headphones and all, and to me at always seemed like he was singing, while we all know that his involvement in 1969 was zero.

The picture just doesn't "feel" right, nothing more.

Mathijs