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Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: March 15, 2021 12:57

Quote
retired_dog

On first listening, I've pinpointed this track directly to Primitive Cool - due to the vocal delivery and the fact that any rough edges that would indicate any Stones involvement are missing. However, it's possible that this little thingy derives from the She's The Boss sessions, brought over to the Stones to see if it could be of use for Dirty Work, then after some tentative work (possibly including some licks from Ronnie) discarded, and then resurrected for Primitive Cool with finalized vocals by Mick, only to be discarded once again.

It was a short timespan anyway, and for that time period a certain crossover between solo and Stones work would represent not that of a huge anomality as it may appear now.

Yeah, true about the short timespan - "Nobody's Perfect" only sounds like an anomaly in regard to DIRTY WORK, but not odds with SHE'S THE BOSS and especially PRITIMIVE COOL- something what Mick generally was up to at the time. There doesn't necessarily need to be any connection to SHE'S THE BOSS, but just an early indication of something that was further or fully realized in PRIMITIVE COOL just a year or so later.

I also agree with you, maumau, GasLightStreet and many others that it has more a PRIMITIVE COOL feel than that of SHE'S THE BOSS. Especially Mick's more technically conscious use of his voice and carrying a melody is something he seemingly worked hard on PRIMITIVE COOL (and that was something he would later use in Stones context too). I think in SHE'S THE BOSS he already started writing more melody in mind and taking care of its 'formal' details (compared to the earlier, Pathe Marconi era, free- or flow-going, even charmingly sloppish Mick), even though his delivery in that album still has a kind of more loud shouting-attitude typical to the early/mid 80's. In PRIMITIVE COOL that disciplined way of writing was further developed and also him training his voice to carry the task as well ("Say You Will" as the most striking example). We can hear in almost any Mick ballad ever since that 'disciplined' Mick of PRIMITIVE COOL (just listen "Almost Hear You Sigh" and "Blinded By Love" for starters). Some of the natural flow and spontaneuty is gone and replaced by sheer craftmanship and technical professionalism, which sometimes sounds a bit forced: playing more according to rules than breaking them or giving a shit about them.... I could easily locate "Nobody's Perfect" as an early exercise of that. Him chasing a 'clever' melody or hook for the sake of it; formally ok, but probably lacking some 'natural' substance or flow...

EDIT: oh yeah, one more point concerning the voice an sich and its origin: it is a question of nuances, and my mind probably making tricks what my ears tell me, but I think the vocal delivery of "Nobody's Perfect" reminds a bit more Mick of PRIMITIVE COOL than Mick of ALFIE (or GODDESS) in the sense that he sounds a bit more natural than he does at the time of ALFIE (and GODDESS) when he - me thinks - tried a bit too much to sound like unique-sounding Mick Jagger with all his cliches. The result is not far from 'over-interpretation' there. By the time of PRIMITIVE COOL he was still working out those latter-day Jaggerian cliches.

- Doxa



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-15 13:41 by Doxa.

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: March 15, 2021 14:35

Quote
retired_dog

Your question alone of who's owning the publishing rights to the 1965 Stones Paris show is telling enough that you still have absolutely no clue, otherwise my explanation in my post above concerning Paris 1965 would have been more than enough!

Just a small hint: Who composed "Hey Crawdaddy", "Carol", "It's All Over Now", "Little Red Rooster", "Off The Hook" and all the other songs included in this particular show?

Sorry, I just don't think you are that well informed yourself. I leave it at that because I don't like your tone of voice.

Mathijs

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: maumau ()
Date: March 15, 2021 15:09

"Some of the natural flow and spontaneuty is gone and replaced by sheer craftmanship and technical professionalism, which sometimes sounds a bit forced: playing more according to rules than breaking them or giving a shit about them.... I could easily locate "Nobody's Perfect" as an early exercise of that." Yes that can be the case, I agree.
Also with the example of Say You Will while on Almost Hear You Sigh he had to 'tame' Keith's soulful inspiration. Another, latter example of Mick's clichè in delivering AND writing, imo, is more Blinded By Rainbows on VL.
In the end what really is baffling me is to see NP in the middle of the dirty work session on Zentgraf. It really does not belong there in any way, soundwise and even Mick's vocals on DW (as on STB ) are still belonging to the late 70 early 80 period.

At first listen NP reminded me directly of Don't Stop but if there's evidence that the song is so much older the only theory that convinces me is that Doxa: an early exercise in something that, unfortunately, will take shape and take over mick's approach in the future.

How many chances that NP as we hear it in the coompilation is in fact a later reworking of an original track born in the summer of 1985?
methinks it would make more sense

anyway I don't like it grinning smiley



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-15 15:13 by maumau.

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: March 15, 2021 16:40

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl

Irix, am still shut out, even after your help and calling in a few favours at this end.

I've converted the FLAC-files - [iorr.org] - to Apple Lossless (ALAC) for the iPod - [iorr.org] .

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: March 15, 2021 16:54

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
retired_dog

Your question alone of who's owning the publishing rights to the 1965 Stones Paris show is telling enough that you still have absolutely no clue, otherwise my explanation in my post above concerning Paris 1965 would have been more than enough!

Just a small hint: Who composed "Hey Crawdaddy", "Carol", "It's All Over Now", "Little Red Rooster", "Off The Hook" and all the other songs included in this particular show?

Sorry, I just don't think you are that well informed yourself. I leave it at that because I don't like your tone of voice.

Mathijs

Good to know that we at least have something in common!

Apart from that, looks like you "leave it at that" because you have to leave it at that due to the lack of better arguments.

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: SomeTorontoGirl ()
Date: March 15, 2021 17:45

OMG - IRIX! You rock! (And roll...it’s all about the rrrrrolllllll!) Blowing kisses and planning to buy you buckets of drinks! hot smiley spinning smiley sticking its tongue out smiling bouncing smiley smileys with beer
(Did I mention...thank you!)


Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: GetYerAngie ()
Date: March 15, 2021 18:01

I've got Desperate Man on replay since the these outtakes was leaked. I'm still so surprised that a track like that has remained for so long in the vaults.

The falsetto at 1.57 gives one goosebumps.

If we get a Tattoo You deluxe it would fit there I think.

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: March 15, 2021 18:05

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl

OMG - IRIX! You rock!

Do the ALAC-files work on the iPod?

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: chevysales ()
Date: March 15, 2021 19:00

does anyone still have iPods? I thought they've been gone for years...

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: johnypar ()
Date: March 15, 2021 19:03

Quote
GetYerAngie
I've got Desperate Man on replay since the these outtakes was leaked. I'm still so surprised that a track like that has remained for so long in the vaults.

The falsetto at 1.57 gives one goosebumps.

If we get a Tattoo You deluxe it would fit there I think.

My favorite as well!
Anyone has the lyrics?

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: March 15, 2021 19:16

Never have been able warm up to Desperate Man as it sounds way too generic, and as maumau stated there's a alot similarities with Don't Stop.
Nothing wrong with Micks vocals to my ears - he actually sounds great, but the song itself is forgettable imo.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: March 15, 2021 19:59

Quote
chevysales
does anyone still have iPods? I thought they've been gone for years...

I do and I love it

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: March 15, 2021 20:22

A few words about the song number two (a long way to go, but I enjoy each step, and I am not in hurry anywhere!).

There seems to be no doubt that "Trouble's A Coming" derives from EMOTIONAL RESCUE sessions (1979), since the track is already known (under different title) from other bootlegs.

That's a non-disputed, but an interesting fact, since my ears wouldn't have naturally located it here. Musically I would say it belongs more to the first part of 70's, to the likes of "Stop Breakin' Down", "Hide Your Love" and "Crazy Mama". There is that sort of laid back, steady, dark and damn tight blues-based groove they mastered during the early 70's (but of which they had more or less get rid of by the joyful, free-going 'punkish' SOME GIRLS era). Another oddity is Mick's straight phrasing with certain type of melodic hooks (that also sound something he did more during the first half of the 70's). Yeah, there is a bit of that SOME GIRLS/EMOTIONAL RESCUE era arrogance and conscious roughness, but not that much.

Probably in its own context it sounded a bit 'too retro' R&B number for them making a cool, sexy follow-up album to fresh, updated-sounding SOME GIRLS (Haha, as "Start Me Up" supposedly did for it too..), so I understand it didn't make EMOTIONAL RESCUE.

But opinions: Damn I like this track helluva lot. I think the groove of it - as simple and straight-forward it is - is such hypnotic and totally irrestible for my ears. The way the guitars, the bass, the drums and the piano speak the same language in a perfect synch, with such a taste and no bullshitting ('less is more' and a 'sum is more than its parts', etc.). I could listen it forever... and as simple as the melody of it as catchy it is, almost like a Fogerty tune (I already once woke up that chorus ringing in head...) And wow - how Mick delivers it! Following the melody note by note humbly with nothing extra. Raw, naked and simple. Altogether, good noise: musically full of interesting choices in its simplicity - the chord changes when they happen and when they do not!grinning smiley - pure Stones magic!

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-15 20:24 by Doxa.

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: SomeTorontoGirl ()
Date: March 15, 2021 20:26

Quote
Irix
Quote
SomeTorontoGirl

OMG - IRIX! You rock!

Do the ALAC-files work on the iPod?

Not...yet. Sadly. Every other thing will sync but not these tracks. Beating my head against the wall here. But your efforts were Herculean and are much appreciated.


Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: maumau ()
Date: March 15, 2021 21:15

Quote
Hairball
Never have been able warm up to Desperate Man as it sounds way too generic, and as maumau stated there's a alot similarities with Don't Stop.
Nothing wrong with Micks vocals to my ears - he actually sounds great, but the song itself is forgettable imo.

I was referring to Nobody's Perfect as the similar mould to Don't Stop. Desperate Man is a nice crafted modern era bluesy stones, nice guitar work, so nice that in some moments you can go as far as feeling a "tonights the night" vibe (then I wake up grinning smiley) but with a smile on my face smiling smiley . good work



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-15 21:16 by maumau.

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: maumau ()
Date: March 15, 2021 21:24

Quote
Doxa
A few words about the song number two (a long way to go, but I enjoy each step, and I am not in hurry anywhere!).

There seems to be no doubt that "Trouble's A Coming" derives from EMOTIONAL RESCUE sessions (1979), since the track is already known (under different title) from other bootlegs.

That's a non-disputed, but an interesting fact, since my ears wouldn't have naturally located it here. Musically I would say it belongs more to the first part of 70's, to the likes of "Stop Breakin' Down", "Hide Your Love" and "Crazy Mama". There is that sort of laid back, steady, dark and damn tight blues-based groove they mastered during the early 70's (but of which they had more or less get rid of by the joyful, free-going 'punkish' SOME GIRLS era). Another oddity is Mick's straight phrasing with certain type of melodic hooks (that also sound something he did more during the first half of the 70's). Yeah, there is a bit of that SOME GIRLS/EMOTIONAL RESCUE era arrogance and conscious roughness, but not that much.

Probably in its own context it sounded a bit 'too retro' R&B number for them making a cool, sexy follow-up album to fresh, updated-sounding SOME GIRLS (Haha, as "Start Me Up" supposedly did for it too..), so I understand it didn't make EMOTIONAL RESCUE.

But opinions: Damn I like this track helluva lot. I think the groove of it - as simple and straight-forward it is - is such hypnotic and totally irrestible for my ears. The way the guitars, the bass, the drums and the piano speak the same language in a perfect synch, with such a taste and no bullshitting ('less is more' and a 'sum is more than its parts', etc.). I could listen it forever... and as simple as the melody of it as catchy it is, almost like a Fogerty tune (I already once woke up that chorus ringing in head...) And wow - how Mick delivers it! Following the melody note by note humbly with nothing extra. Raw, naked and simple. Altogether, good noise: musically full of interesting choices in its simplicity - the chord changes when they happen and when they do not!grinning smiley - pure Stones magic!

- Doxa

is it possible to disagree with this grinning smiley no
yet, not my abs fav because it is really a reworking of familiar stones blues "places". fact is that here the great straightforward attitude you describe is so fresh that you cant do anything but surrender smileys with beer

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: March 15, 2021 21:30

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl

Not...yet. Sadly. Every other thing will sync but not these tracks.

So at least iTunes does import/show/play the Tracks? I've made an update with the Metadata - [iorr.org] . Sync & Play tested - works on my iPad (late 2012), don't have an iPod anymore.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-15 21:50 by Irix.

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: ryanpow ()
Date: March 15, 2021 22:03

Re: Nobody's Perfect, the playing on it sounds like something from the Undercover sessions. The singing style and phrasing sounds like the Dirty Work era.

All in all, it's not a bad song.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-15 22:07 by ryanpow.

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: gotdablouse ()
Date: March 15, 2021 22:11

Didn't like it much at first but I gotta say it's pretty catchy ! More than anything on "Dirty Work" where it seems Mick thought it was his duty to bark his way around like there was no tomorrow !

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: March 15, 2021 22:16

Quote
maumau
Quote
Hairball
Never have been able warm up to Desperate Man as it sounds way too generic, and as maumau stated there's a alot similarities with Don't Stop.
Nothing wrong with Micks vocals to my ears - he actually sounds great, but the song itself is forgettable imo.

I was referring to Nobody's Perfect as the similar mould to Don't Stop. Desperate Man is a nice crafted modern era bluesy stones, nice guitar work, so nice that in some moments you can go as far as feeling a "tonights the night" vibe (then I wake up grinning smiley) but with a smile on my face smiling smiley . good work

Yeah sorry, I confused the titles and was also referring to the opening track Nobody's Perfect in my post above which indeed veers in to the lightweight Don't Stop/soft rock/pop realm- sorry for the confusion!
Listening to Desperate Man again now...agree it's much better no doubt with it's slinky guitars, slow groove, and overall Stonesy grittiness...and Mick sounds good in this one also.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-15 23:59 by Hairball.

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: maumau ()
Date: March 15, 2021 22:43

by the way, what a perfect thing It's a lie is.... thanks god for the stones smileys with beer

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: SomeTorontoGirl ()
Date: March 15, 2021 23:26

Quote
Irix
Quote
SomeTorontoGirl

Not...yet. Sadly. Every other thing will sync but not these tracks.

So at least iTunes does import/show/play the Tracks? I've made an update with the Metadata - [iorr.org] . Sync & Play tested - works on my iPad (late 2012), don't have an iPod anymore.

Yes, they all play perfectly on my (15-year-old) iMac and my laptop, but just won’t sync. Maybe my iPod is too old - no idea how long I’ve had it but the back says ‘XXX GB’ and everything else is in Latin. grinning smiley

I had also burned CDs yesterday, from the original download (which is why I keep my old Mac!) but they played really poorly on my Bose unit so I tried them in the car - the CDs are fine but my Bose is now apparently garbage. A bad week for tech here. Nothing for it but to go for a drive and play the CDs in the car.


Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: March 15, 2021 23:55

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl

Maybe my iPod is too old - no idea how long I’ve had it but the back says ‘XXX GB’ and everything else is in Latin.

Dunno what the issue could be. File-size of the ALACs is in total 1.37 GB. Not enough space on the iPod? Does manual sync from iTunes to the iPod (drag & drop) work?

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: March 16, 2021 01:27

Nobody’s Perfect has the best lyrics of any of these outtakes Musically it needs more work.The guitars are awful. The solo doesn’t suit the lyrics at all.A reworked song,and it is a song that has meaning as opposed to something like Curtis



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-16 01:31 by Taylor1.

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: SomeTorontoGirl ()
Date: March 16, 2021 02:18

Quote
Irix
Dunno what the issue could be. File-size of the ALACs is in total 1.37 GB. Not enough space on the iPod? Does manual sync from iTunes to the iPod (drag & drop) work?

I dumped a bunch of music to make room for these, there’s room on the iPod. I’ll get at it again tomorrow, see if I can make it work. Thanks again for all your work on this.


Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: timbernardis ()
Date: March 16, 2021 06:41

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl
Quote
Irix
Quote
SomeTorontoGirl

Not...yet. Sadly. Every other thing will sync but not these tracks.

So at least iTunes does import/show/play the Tracks? I've made an update with the Metadata - [iorr.org] . Sync & Play tested - works on my iPad (late 2012), don't have an iPod anymore.

Yes, they all play perfectly on my (15-year-old) iMac and my laptop, but just won’t sync. Maybe my iPod is too old - no idea how long I’ve had it but the back says ‘XXX GB’ and everything else is in Latin. grinning smiley

I had also burned CDs yesterday, from the original download (which is why I keep my old Mac!) but they played really poorly on my Bose unit so I tried them in the car - the CDs are fine but my Bose is now apparently garbage. A bad week for tech here. Nothing for it but to go for a drive and play the CDs in the car.


wow STG, your iMac is as old as the ABB tour.


plexi

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: wupperstein ()
Date: March 16, 2021 09:31

My favourite songs are: Built That Way, 20 Nil, Ivy League, Never Make You Cry,
Hands Off, It's A Lie, Sanctuary, Desperate Man, Praire Love, Still In Love With You.
Nobodys Perfect and Walk With Me Wendy are not my taste.

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Date: March 16, 2021 10:54

Quote
Taylor1
Nobody’s Perfect has the best lyrics of any of these outtakes Musically it needs more work.The guitars are awful. The solo doesn’t suit the lyrics at all.A reworked song,and it is a song that has meaning as opposed to something like Curtis

Why wouldn't Ronnie's mediocre solo fit the lyrics "Nobody's perfect, nobody's flawless"? It fits perfectly, imo winking smiley

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: rollmops ()
Date: March 16, 2021 12:47

Any guess on who is playing the rhythm guitar on "Cooking up"? It does not sound like Keith. It is an energic strumming but no "chopping" a la Keith. May be Jagger. If it's him, it proves that he is a decent strummer.
Rockandroll,
Mops

Re: Fully Finished Studio Outtakes on IORR Hot Stuff!!!!!!
Posted by: deardoctor ()
Date: March 16, 2021 14:38

Quote
rollmops
Any guess on who is playing the rhythm guitar on "Cooking up"? It does not sound like Keith. It is an energic strumming but no "chopping" a la Keith. May be Jagger. If it's him, it proves that he is a decent strummer.
Rockandroll,
Mops

Rock and a hard place
Highwire
Don't stop

Even if you don't like these songs there's good strumming by Mick.

(And most of some girls)

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