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Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: January 6, 2020 16:50

Quote
Father Ted
Hands up if you were aware that these releases were going to be placed on YouTube in advance?

Not me but I find it troubling that someone could detect, among the billions of YT vids, a bunch of genuinely new and exciting outtakes that were going to remain online only 24hrs. The probability of this happening is close to 0.

It's possible to imagine that, part of ABKCO's "copyright extension" plan was to upload the songs, then to immediately give them general attention thru posts here and at Hoffmann's forum. Turning us into involontury witnesses that, yes these tracks were given a "release", and then, yes copyright could be extended for them, till 2070 (wow!).

In short : we're ABKCO's useful idiots. grinning smiley
I'm curious to see if the clever plot will eventually work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-06 17:07 by dcba.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 6, 2020 16:52

How were the uploads worded? They'd show up in search results in the stones were mentioned in any part of them.

It's been expected that there would be a 1969 upload just like previous years.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: Deltics ()
Date: January 6, 2020 16:55

Quote
DandelionPowderman


Impossible, as there are tons of other outtakes they didn't "publish" from 1967 and 1968. 1969, too, for that matter.

I was expecting something, ABKCO have posted "Copyright Preservation" tracks every year since 2016.


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Date: January 6, 2020 17:23

Quote
Deltics
Quote
DandelionPowderman


Impossible, as there are tons of other outtakes they didn't "publish" from 1967 and 1968. 1969, too, for that matter.

I was expecting something, ABKCO have posted "Copyright Preservation" tracks every year since 2016.

Me too, but which songs/versions was pretty hard to predict smiling smiley

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: deardoctor ()
Date: January 6, 2020 17:54

Quote
JMARKO
Quote
His Majesty
Quote
dcba
Quote
His Majesty
1969 is the starting point. No one has yet proven it isn't from 1969.

ABKCO have tried to sell us a 1969 "shelter" that was recorded 9 years later... It took the most perspicacious IORR members (not me btw...) grinning smiley about 10 minutes to find the correct attribution for this track.

Yes, but I am talking about this new Ruby Tuesday. smiling smiley

It actually took me the first 10-15 seconds of hearing it. winking smiley
The keyboards/mix are dead giveaways.


Indeed. I recognized the WOODSTOCK REHEARSALS immidiately as well.
But ABKCO is not allowed to release any 1978-recordings. So what´s the point with GIMME SHELTER? That´s so strange...

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: nellcote'71 ()
Date: January 6, 2020 20:05

There is an article dated today on these recording on Variety.com right now which quotes this thread on IORR.
If it hasn't already been posted maybe someone can post it.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: Honestman ()
Date: January 6, 2020 20:57

Quote
nellcote'71
There is an article dated today on these recording on Variety.com right now which quotes this thread on IORR.
If it hasn't already been posted maybe someone can post it.

Here you go



HMN

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Date: January 6, 2020 21:10

I see our roller99 is involved here thumbs up

But RT is not from 1966 smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-06 21:17 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: January 6, 2020 21:15

I realize this proves nothing but it does give you an idea of 'spin'

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: January 6, 2020 22:23

Quote
retired_dog
Quote
jlowe
Will be interesting to see how ABKCO deal with CS Blues/Schoolboy Blues track twelve months from now. One view is that it has already been officially released, others not sure. Also there could be other takes of the track lying around.
The saga continues! I'm sure Mick will have a smile on his face.. thinking....50 years on....LOL

CS Blues is actually an unreleased composition, and though not the recording itself, but the songwriters (copy)right to allow or veto a release ends 70 years after their death. Consequently, even if the recording falls into the public domain at the end of this year, Jagger/Richards could stop a release through their songwriters copyright.

Yes, I've checked with the ASCAP title search and the composition is registered. Strangely the Music Publisher is listed as Colgems-EMI rather than ABKCO, even though it was written and recorded during the Klein era. (1970). Or maybe it was after the ABKCO contract expired but before they set up their own companies.

I hadn't realised the Songwriters could refuse use of their composition even if they don't hold the Copyright? Which isnt clear.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: January 6, 2020 23:10

Quote
jlowe
Quote
retired_dog
Quote
jlowe
Will be interesting to see how ABKCO deal with CS Blues/Schoolboy Blues track twelve months from now. One view is that it has already been officially released, others not sure. Also there could be other takes of the track lying around.
The saga continues! I'm sure Mick will have a smile on his face.. thinking....50 years on....LOL

CS Blues is actually an unreleased composition, and though not the recording itself, but the songwriters (copy)right to allow or veto a release ends 70 years after their death. Consequently, even if the recording falls into the public domain at the end of this year, Jagger/Richards could stop a release through their songwriters copyright.

Yes, I've checked with the ASCAP title search and the composition is registered. Strangely the Music Publisher is listed as Colgems-EMI rather than ABKCO, even though it was written and recorded during the Klein era. (1970). Or maybe it was after the ABKCO contract expired but before they set up their own companies.

I hadn't realised the Songwriters could refuse use of their composition even if they don't hold the Copyright? Which isnt clear.

Songwriters usually sign with publishing companies for a contractual share of incoming royalties. However, songwriters always have the right to allow or veto the first release/publication of a composition, just like they retain the right to allow or veto the use of their compositions for advertising campaigns, the use of foreign language lyrics instead of the original lyrics etc. All these are personal rights guaranteed by law that songwriters usually can't even sign away in contractual agreements even if they want to.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: January 6, 2020 23:59

Quote
retired_dog
Quote
jlowe
Quote
retired_dog
Quote
jlowe
Will be interesting to see how ABKCO deal with CS Blues/Schoolboy Blues track twelve months from now. One view is that it has already been officially released, others not sure. Also there could be other takes of the track lying around.
The saga continues! I'm sure Mick will have a smile on his face.. thinking....50 years on....LOL

CS Blues is actually an unreleased composition, and though not the recording itself, but the songwriters (copy)right to allow or veto a release ends 70 years after their death. Consequently, even if the recording falls into the public domain at the end of this year, Jagger/Richards could stop a release through their songwriters copyright.

Yes, I've checked with the ASCAP title search and the composition is registered. Strangely the Music Publisher is listed as Colgems-EMI rather than ABKCO, even though it was written and recorded during the Klein era. (1970). Or maybe it was after the ABKCO contract expired but before they set up their own companies.

I hadn't realised the Songwriters could refuse use of their composition even if they don't hold the Copyright? Which isnt clear.

Songwriters usually sign with publishing companies for a contractual share of incoming royalties. However, songwriters always have the right to allow or veto the first release/publication of a composition, just like they retain the right to allow or veto the use of their compositions for advertising campaigns, the use of foreign language lyrics instead of the original lyrics etc. All these are personal rights guaranteed by law that songwriters usually can't even sign away in contractual agreements even if they want to.

Thanks for the clarification.
I wonder if a cover version has been attempted.
I would love to hear a Rap version of CS Blues one day!

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: DeepBlueSea ()
Date: January 7, 2020 03:55

Quote
MrEcho
Since the tracks have disappeared and the labeling was a bit of a mess here's an overview of what was available (130 tracks, some were posted twice):

1969-11-07 Fort Collins, Moby Gymnasium
- I'm Free
- Honky Tonk Women

1969-11-08 Los Angeles, Inglewood Forum (1st or 2nd?)
- Introduction (posted twice)
- JJF

1969-11-09 Oakland 1st
complete show

1969-11-09 Oakland 2nd
complete show except for Live With Me and Street Fighting Man

1969-11-11 Phoenix
- You Gotta Move

1969-11-15 Champaign 1st
complete show (Love In Vain, Prodigal Son, Under My Thumb and Street Fighting Man were posted twice)

1969-11-27 New York City, MSG
complete show

1969-11-28 New York City, MSG 1st
- JJF
- Carol
- Sympathy

1969-11-28 New York City, MSG 2nd
complete show

1969-11-30 West Palm Beach
complete show except for Honky Tonk Women

1969-12-06 Altamont
complete show

Studio (17 tracks)
- Brown Sugar (alternate Hot Rocks version)
- Gimme Shelter (alternate version)
- Gimme Shelter (early version)
- Gimme Shelter (Keith Richards on lead vocal)
- Honky Tonk Women (alternate lyric version)
- Honky Tonk Women (country rock instrumental version)
- Let It Bleed (Olympic Sound April - instrumental)
- Love In Vain (bluesier version)
- Midnight Rambler (instrumental)
- Ruby Tuesday
- Sister Morphhie (early version)
- Stray Cat Blues (Olympic Sound April)
- Sympathy for the Devil (Olympic Sound April - with vocals)
- Wild Horses (alternate Hot Rocks version)
- Wild Horses (with strings and glass harmonica)
- You Can't Always Get What You Want (choir sessions)
- You Got The Silver (Mick Jagger on lead vocal)

Thanks for all of this! Was anybody able to grab the WH (alternate Hot Rocks version)? Not seeing that in the other studio downloads but maybe I've missed it somewhere?

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: Lynd8 ()
Date: January 7, 2020 03:58

I've been really, really enjoying these new" tracks over the past 5 days, in fact I hadn't been listening to our boys for a few months and this set of songs put me on a binge and I think I have listened to every studio album from the 60s and 70s and most of the 80s (I have not played Dirty Work or Undercover LOL) but I've been thinking....

If this is truly not Abkco's fault and we should be annoyed with the band, I'm going to go pretty easy on them. Over the years, I've collected so many of their awesome outtakes, surely they had a hand in letting them leak out?

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: January 7, 2020 04:07

Quote
jlowe
Quote
retired_dog
Quote
jlowe
Quote
retired_dog
Quote
jlowe
Will be interesting to see how ABKCO deal with CS Blues/Schoolboy Blues track twelve months from now. One view is that it has already been officially released, others not sure. Also there could be other takes of the track lying around.
The saga continues! I'm sure Mick will have a smile on his face.. thinking....50 years on....LOL

CS Blues is actually an unreleased composition, and though not the recording itself, but the songwriters (copy)right to allow or veto a release ends 70 years after their death. Consequently, even if the recording falls into the public domain at the end of this year, Jagger/Richards could stop a release through their songwriters copyright.

Yes, I've checked with the ASCAP title search and the composition is registered. Strangely the Music Publisher is listed as Colgems-EMI rather than ABKCO, even though it was written and recorded during the Klein era. (1970). Or maybe it was after the ABKCO contract expired but before they set up their own companies.

I hadn't realised the Songwriters could refuse use of their composition even if they don't hold the Copyright? Which isnt clear.

Songwriters usually sign with publishing companies for a contractual share of incoming royalties. However, songwriters always have the right to allow or veto the first release/publication of a composition, just like they retain the right to allow or veto the use of their compositions for advertising campaigns, the use of foreign language lyrics instead of the original lyrics etc. All these are personal rights guaranteed by law that songwriters usually can't even sign away in contractual agreements even if they want to.

Thanks for the clarification.
I wonder if a cover version has been attempted.
I would love to hear a Rap version of CS Blues one day!

Well, I don't know a Rap version, but thinking about it, at least 2 cover versions of CS released on record come to mind, one by the dutch band Kobus (and a good one at that, great slide guitar btw on the live version available on Youtube) and another one by Beasts Of Bourbon.

If these releases were indeed okayed by Jagger/Richards, they used up their original veto right already. Once okayed - and your first publication right is gone.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: January 7, 2020 06:17

That CS Blues from 78 tour rehearsal is tuff stuff ….



ROCKMAN

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 7, 2020 08:43

Quote
retired_dog
However, songwriters always have the right to allow or veto the first release/publication of a composition, just like they retain the right to allow or veto the use of their compositions for advertising campaigns, the use of foreign language lyrics instead of the original lyrics etc. All these are personal rights guaranteed by law that songwriters usually can't even sign away in contractual agreements even if they want to.

No, sorry this is all very much not true. First, it is much more complicated, and second it really depends on which country.

As a writer you have very limited power on what the owner of the publishing rights does with your tracks -even big bands like the Stones have limited to no say in whatever compilation is released by publisher ABKCO. Second, you CAN sign away your personal rights, unknowingly (again, Stones, or CCR, or Prince, or even Lennon/McCartney) or knowingly (Bowie is the best example of selling all his personal rights for 100 mm$).

Then, in most countries, and especially the USA, music can be used in most affairs without consent of the publisher and author. No one can stop a radio station from playing your music, or your music being used in a political campaign, or being played in a stadium during a basketball game. Only in advertising and broadcasting on TV or movie an agreement must be reached when the clip is longer than 29 seconds.

What is not even guaranteed is that you get your money. Most contracts are vague, and many companies are rogue. Many owner of the publishing rights have basically stolen money from the artists, and it can take years and years to get part of that money. The Small Faces and Immediate Records come to mind, Micky Most and RAK is also known, and of course Allan Klein.

Mathijs

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: January 7, 2020 11:38

Acc. to zentgraf RT comes from the R&R Circus rehearsals. Sounds plausible to me.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 7, 2020 11:53

Ugh, that bloody article spreading the nonsense that the new RT is from 1966.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-07 11:55 by His Majesty.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: frankotero ()
Date: January 7, 2020 12:05

Thanks to everyone and their efforts to research the origins of these songs. I too believe Ruby Tuesday is not from 1966. It seems a bit modernized even though it was maybe a couple years apart. Nice mystery.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 7, 2020 12:19

Quote
dcba
Acc. to zentgraf RT comes from the R&R Circus rehearsals. Sounds plausible to me.

Sonically it doesn't. Also the maracas are far too consistent to be Brian. grinning smiley

It's a studio recording.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Date: January 7, 2020 12:22

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
dcba
Acc. to zentgraf RT comes from the R&R Circus rehearsals. Sounds plausible to me.

Sonically it doesn't. Also the maracas are far too consistent to be Brian. grinning smiley

It's a studio recording.

Yep (Mick did two vocal tracks on the choruses), but the big question is... why?

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 7, 2020 12:32

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
His Majesty
Quote
dcba
Acc. to zentgraf RT comes from the R&R Circus rehearsals. Sounds plausible to me.

Sonically it doesn't. Also the maracas are far too consistent to be Brian. grinning smiley

It's a studio recording.

Yep (Mick did two vocal tracks on the choruses), but the big question is... why?

That they are 'rehearsals' for Circus sounds plausible, but not that they were recorded at the circus.

The sound is too full etc and different to actual circus recordings. That full and beautiful Olympic sound.

So, I say recordings done at Olympic for/in preparation for The R&R Circus in early December 1968.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Date: January 7, 2020 12:33

Good points! Sounds plausible to me thumbs up

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 7, 2020 14:30

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
His Majesty
Quote
dcba
Acc. to zentgraf RT comes from the R&R Circus rehearsals. Sounds plausible to me.

Sonically it doesn't. Also the maracas are far too consistent to be Brian. grinning smiley

It's a studio recording.

Yep (Mick did two vocal tracks on the choruses), but the big question is... why?

That they are 'rehearsals' for Circus sounds plausible, but not that they were recorded at the circus.

The sound is too full etc and different to actual circus recordings. That full and beautiful Olympic sound.

So, I say recordings done at Olympic for/in preparation for The R&R Circus in early December 1968.

So both Sympathy and RT could be from the Circus rehearsals?

The statement about 1+1 is from Miller in the Alan Clayson book, but he only mentions 'recordings' for the film, not any specific songs.

Mathijs

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: January 7, 2020 14:44

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
dcba
Acc. to zentgraf RT comes from the R&R Circus rehearsals. Sounds plausible to me.

Sonically it doesn't. Also the maracas are far too consistent to be Brian. grinning smiley

Rocky Dijon then? Doing "chik-a-chik-a-chik" doesn't seem that hard...

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 7, 2020 15:54

Quote
dcba



Rocky Dijon then? Doing "chik-a-chik-a-chik" doesn't seem that hard...

Not hard at all, but look and listen to him playing maracas at circus, a consistent rhythm seemingly not where he was at regarding playing them. grinning smiley

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 7, 2020 15:57

Quote
Mathijs


So both Sympathy and RT could be from the Circus rehearsals?

The statement about 1+1 is from Miller in the Alan Clayson book, but he only mentions 'recordings' for the film, not any specific songs.

Mathijs

Most likely from a R&R Circus related rehearsal/recording session at Olympic on 8th December 1968 as now noted in Nico's site. thumbs up

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: January 7, 2020 15:59

Unlike some of the Dylan Copyright issues we haven't had multiple recordings /takes of the same composition.
So, presumably there are still lots of alternative takes out there, in ABKCO vaults, Stones vaults, and in private hands.
Those in the latter category are now in the Public Domain?
And could be released on the iorr label?

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 7, 2020 16:07

Quote
jlowe
Unlike some of the Dylan Copyright issues we haven't had multiple recordings /takes of the same composition.
So, presumably there are still lots of alternative takes out there, in ABKCO vaults, Stones vaults, and in private hands.
Those in the latter category are now in the Public Domain?
And could be released on the iorr label?

There must be and in theory, yes.

ABKCO have @#$%& up this time. 1968 recordings in a 1969 upload. Woops.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-07 16:25 by His Majesty.

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