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Wasn't The Rolling Stones covering Otis recreating Satisfaction ?
My fave live version is the one from the next tour performed on the Les Paul.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-09 23:12 by ds1984.
Yeah, very strange. Like what these two dudes claim:
Ron Wood & Keith Richards (1989): No longer winging it
Ron: We're doing You Can't Always Get What You Want just like the record, with all the builds and crescendos. In '81, we would just start the song and kind of wing it. I used to have a solo that wasn't any specific length. But now we've got to work within limitations, certain amounts of bars. I've got to be on the ball or everyone will be making chord changes and I won't. That one song has got a lot of tricks in it for me personally.
Keith: Over the years, you develop a simplified road version of a song that you get used to. But this time, we thought, Let's go back and listen very carefully to the records to find what we were originally going for when we made it. All the subtleties and the half bar jumps. We thought we ought to do the songs up proud and have the things that were on the record. And once you go back and research what you did, you say, Well, the reason we did it like that is because we had these voices or because we had these horns. That's why we have the enlarged line-up. Tumbling Dice without the voices is kind of bare.
(The source: timeisonourside.com)
- Doxa
There is advantages in both approaches. That of trying to replicate the studio original or that of interpreting the song in a different way. Dylan is the extremist of the latter.
I need to say that I grew up expecting the songs sounding different on stage - like that what live version is all about. It like added a new dimension to a song. Not just with the Stones, but with almost anybody. Probably some of that was not so much to do with any artistic decision, but that of not even being possible to recreate the studio original, especially if there a lot of studio capacities used. So the songs needed to be re-arranged to work on stage, taking the limitations there.
I would say the approach the Stones have taken since 1989 - trying to be somewhat faithful to studio originals - is something that works very well in concerts, and I think one crucial reason for the longetivity of their success as a concert draw. People - so called casual fans - hear the songs as they recall and are familiar with them. I mean, it is not just hearing the songs they want to hear, but also that of them sounding like they suppose to sound. And in a concert all are in the same line: the hardcore fans are as excited hearing the songs no matter how they are played. It's da Stones, man - here and now! Those with stamp collecting mentality - looking for obscure, not that much played songs - do not care if the song is Chuck Leavell-lead close approximation of the original, if they hear, say, "She Smiled Sweetly". 'Got that one!'
Anyway, my personal experience from 1989 on live material is that no matter how much I love hearing the songs live in a concert, I have not much interest listening them outside of that first-hand concert experience. They do not add much to the studio originals, and usually they are just weaker versions of them, as one cannot being without making the comparison (and live versions do not alter that much from each other in arrangement). Surely there are expectations to a rule, but the over-all impression is like that. The result is that I have not much interest to any post-1989 live material. I give them an occasional listen/watch, especially if there is a new product out, but I very rarely feel urge to go back to them.
It is totally different with the earlier stuff, all the way to 1982. It is exciting to listen how the songs differ from their studio counterparts. You know, what kind of decisions they made in arranging to work on stage. Especially making live versions of BEGGARS BANQUET and LET IT BLEED material - pretty much a studio band effort - during the early Taylor years is among the most interesting things the Stones ever have artistically done. Of course, bootlegs tell it all in detail, but GET YER YA-YA'S OUT! alone is an incredible musical statement of its own. "Flash", "Love In vain", "Rambler", "Sympathy", "Stray Cat", "Street Fighting Man" etc. got a new clothing (hmm... that sounds too lame - there is more there, even some substantial difference, and like the songs stand on their own as live versions).
But it doesn't stop there. The 1969 tour was like a rough blueprint for the rest to follow. It is exciting to follow how the 'road versions' - as Keith calls them - develop and alter as the band changes over the years. A new tour and a new sound (in a way, 1989/90 still belongs to that story, since the songs sound so different compared to their earlier live versions). The Taylor tours from 1969 to 1973 were a story of their own - the songs were reshaped along the ride, almost from gig to gig. The guitar fiesta of BRUSSELS AFFAIR - the band hot and speedy as hell - is a kind of culmination of that evolution process. Then we had tours with Woody and with who else - 1975/76 is an animal of its own, as is 1978 and then 1981/82.
I don't claim that there aren't changes since 1989 - there surely are - but usually for me the difference between gigs - or tours - since then is how well the band delivers in a given night - say, if Keith is on or doing something funny or not - not that there is something musically distinctive as far as the versions or arrangements go. But that's just me. Let's say I am spoiled by the past in that sense. Basically I am just an old fart bounded by my old listening habits.
- Doxa
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-10 16:11 by Doxa.
I have to say that having now listened a lot FLASHPOINT and other releases from 1989/90 tours I have a new appreciation to that era (great with the Stones and their long career is that there is so much to discover - some things or phases have been for some reason have left unnoticed for some time, until one picks up them and sees the unique greatness in there. With this band, the greatness comes in many forms).
It is not the fault of STEEL WHEELS/URBAN JUNGLE tour that the concept has been probably even over-used since then. They hit the jackpot there, and the old pragmatic rule is that no reason to change a winning concept. But the concept was fresh then, and the band did something they had never done before - that's artistically challenging and always a big plus in my book. And one can hear the novelty factor and the inspiration there. How much they work their asses off. Surely, like I said earlier, I like them being more relaxed later - and already then taking some freedoms, as you pointed out re Keith - but there is a certain charm them taking that rigid, almost purist attitude back then. Kind of 'once in a life time' attempt - and the band comes out as winners.
And Atlantic City could be individually one of the best Stones concerts ever. The band was hot as hell, with all the cylinders on. Shit, take "Bitch" - can anyone play rock and roll any better than that? They play just so incredibly well - so damn tight, but still having a groove like no one else.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-10 17:15 by Doxa.
Where can I find those? Not in the singles collection box set right?
Think i bought mine in Rotterdam at the Imax in Rotterdam, my copy got this hype sticker
too.
I don;t know about the charity single.
Life's just a cocktail party on the street
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-10 17:56 by MononoM.
I am really amazed by the Tokyo 1990 concerts, they are just fantastic. They were hot from the 1989 tour, and for whatever reason (no drugs in Japan....) Keith is as sharp as a knife. His playing really elevates the new songs like Rock and a Hard Place and Almost Hear You Sigh. And due to the mix it must be Bill's greatest tour as well.
Mathijs
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-11 13:36 by UrbanSteel.
7th Of July sounds awesome though!
The guitar solo is overdubbed.
It's too bad the Atlantic City PPV version wasn't used - it's excellent.
Indeed. However, the guitars are too clean, imo.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-15 00:36 by ironbelly.
I saw your post and I would have to agree with part of it. From what I read at the time, it appeared that Jagger was influenced by what was going on with then current music trends. And I also believe your observation is on point that a lot of the Stones re-arrangement of classic tunes on the Steel Wheels stemmed from "Jagger's 88 solo show template adapted to the stones."
But I have to disagree with your assessment that "the so called professional version of the band that was born with that tour had anything to do with Jagger being fed up with the sloppiness of the previous tours."
And once again, I'm drawing from what insider Bill German observed at the time and reported in his book. Jagger's mindset was that he did not think that the Stones previous loose/raw/ idiosyncratic (i.e "road versions" or whatever you want to call it) style of playing would be endearing to a modern (circa 1989) audience, and in order to reach the largest demographic (and not just the hardcore Stones fans), the decision was made to play the hits the way the people remembered them (which produced a more professional, polished ensemble). Once again, it was more a business decision at the time.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-15 02:00 by Sighunt.
In fact I completely agree with you in half (to quote a Roma football player of some years ago) also on the second point. What I meant to say is that what we call the professional version of the band was in fact a shared artistic decision (very likely "suggested by Mick") to make the show the most effective and not - as I have read here many times - the condition imposed by Mick on the Keith to allow the Stones to continue touring or for him to tour with the stones, which is the same.
Same as in the past: they added an ace soloist to the set when solos where popular, sort of changed direction when punk buried glam, and so on.
To my ears, the Stones - in their canon - always were a very tight band. Of course, on very large stages with the technology of the 60 and 70s, shit happened more often.
So my point is that the perceived extra tightness of the 89 tour is mainly related to the addition of extra musicians on stage, and the need to balance all of them in the mix, as noted by Ronnie and Keith in the passages quoted by Doxa above.
One thing is sure though, no matter what Jagger and the rest of the band thought when they decided to recover touches of the origial studio arrangements here and there, 90% of those attending the concert couldn't tell the difference between a piano and guitar version of Devil, and even if they could, they wouldn't give a damn as long as Mick does his thing
C
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-15 17:45 by liddas.
They dropped One Hit.
That kinda says something in regard to their approach then - it simply didn't work.
Not everything was like or similar to the studio version. Start Me Up was a gazillion times better. Miss You was upbeat. Tumbling Dice was... precise.
Of course, new songs or ones they'd never played live (or eons ago) before don't count.
SFTD changed drastically. It's arguable, I guess, that it was closer to the studio version. It wasn't - but they paid homage to it. When it kicked in with the band, well, then it was different but not like previously. But it hasn't changed since since 1989. Which is kind of weird.
The approach to the 1989 tour was clearly to get closer to the studio versions, and to present a more professional version of the band. It's probably a mix of Jagger's idea that he already showed in 1988, but also the flavor and technology of the day, with the new technology of electronic drums, synthesizers, loops and samples. It was the first time the percussion of Sympathy could be done during a live concert as it was sampled, the harmonica of Miss You was a close approximation of Sugar Blue's harmonica, 2000 Light Years could be played live as the Mellotron could be approximated by synths.
One Hit didn't work live, as it is just a too light weight song. It's a great intro, a great guitar riff, but there's no real chorus and it's just doesn't go anywhere after the first verse.
Mathijs
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Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
liddas
()
Date: January 9, 2024 18:51
Never understood why people consider the 89/90 tour to be a sort of recreation of the studio versions. Only because Devil returns to be a piano driven song?
Very simply it was Jagger's 88 solo show template adapted to the stones.
And Jagger's solo show was heavily influenced by what the big acts of the time where doing (Jackson, Madonna, Police, Prince, Bowie etc.), by the sounds of the 80's (synths, loops etc.), and, probably mostly, by what technology allowed to do on stage.
I don't think that the so called professional version of the band that was born with that tour had anything to do with Jagger being fed up with the sloppiness of the previous tours. That's BS. The band HAD to standardize its output so that lights, screens, inflatable dolls and so on could function in sinc.
Jagger always loved the extended jams because being the stage animal that he is, he knows that that is the time for him to work the crowds - and rest his voice too -
C
Very simply it was Jagger's 88 solo show template adapted to the stones.
And Jagger's solo show was heavily influenced by what the big acts of the time where doing (Jackson, Madonna, Police, Prince, Bowie etc.), by the sounds of the 80's (synths, loops etc.), and, probably mostly, by what technology allowed to do on stage.
I don't think that the so called professional version of the band that was born with that tour had anything to do with Jagger being fed up with the sloppiness of the previous tours. That's BS. The band HAD to standardize its output so that lights, screens, inflatable dolls and so on could function in sinc.
Jagger always loved the extended jams because being the stage animal that he is, he knows that that is the time for him to work the crowds - and rest his voice too -
C
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
ds1984
()
Date: January 9, 2024 23:10
Quote
jahisnotdead
I've probably written this on this thread before but this arrangement of satisfaction has always been my favorite.
Wasn't The Rolling Stones covering Otis recreating Satisfaction ?
My fave live version is the one from the next tour performed on the Les Paul.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-09 23:12 by ds1984.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: January 10, 2024 01:19
Quote
liddas
Never understood why people consider the 89/90 tour to be a sort of recreation of the studio versions. Only because Devil returns to be a piano driven song?
C
Yeah, very strange. Like what these two dudes claim:
Ron Wood & Keith Richards (1989): No longer winging it
Ron: We're doing You Can't Always Get What You Want just like the record, with all the builds and crescendos. In '81, we would just start the song and kind of wing it. I used to have a solo that wasn't any specific length. But now we've got to work within limitations, certain amounts of bars. I've got to be on the ball or everyone will be making chord changes and I won't. That one song has got a lot of tricks in it for me personally.
Keith: Over the years, you develop a simplified road version of a song that you get used to. But this time, we thought, Let's go back and listen very carefully to the records to find what we were originally going for when we made it. All the subtleties and the half bar jumps. We thought we ought to do the songs up proud and have the things that were on the record. And once you go back and research what you did, you say, Well, the reason we did it like that is because we had these voices or because we had these horns. That's why we have the enlarged line-up. Tumbling Dice without the voices is kind of bare.
(The source: timeisonourside.com)
- Doxa
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: January 10, 2024 04:26
Quote
DoxaQuote
liddas
Never understood why people consider the 89/90 tour to be a sort of recreation of the studio versions. Only because Devil returns to be a piano driven song?
C
Yeah, very strange. Like what these two dudes claim:
Ron Wood & Keith Richards (1989): No longer winging it
Ron: We're doing You Can't Always Get What You Want just like the record, with all the builds and crescendos. In '81, we would just start the song and kind of wing it. I used to have a solo that wasn't any specific length. But now we've got to work within limitations, certain amounts of bars. I've got to be on the ball or everyone will be making chord changes and I won't. That one song has got a lot of tricks in it for me personally.
Keith: Over the years, you develop a simplified road version of a song that you get used to. But this time, we thought, Let's go back and listen very carefully to the records to find what we were originally going for when we made it. All the subtleties and the half bar jumps. We thought we ought to do the songs up proud and have the things that were on the record. And once you go back and research what you did, you say, Well, the reason we did it like that is because we had these voices or because we had these horns. That's why we have the enlarged line-up. Tumbling Dice without the voices is kind of bare.
(The source: timeisonourside.com)
- Doxa
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
shattered1978
()
Date: January 10, 2024 09:32
It could very well be my favourite live-album from the Stadium-Era. They are in top-form, Bill is still there and Highwire as a powerful Gulf-war reminder bonus.
Love it.
Love it.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 10, 2024 12:21
Still loving the album. It sounds better than 7th of July and the others, with the exception of Atlantic City.
Regarding arranging the songs to sound like the originals, that is indeed true. However, it didn't take long before they (Keith in particular) started doing things that were far off from the studio albums. YCAGWYW from Live At The Max springs to mind
The funniest thing he did must be on the Live At The Tokyo Dome-album, where he is downright sabotaging Matt's synth guitar solo after 2000 LYFH
Regarding arranging the songs to sound like the originals, that is indeed true. However, it didn't take long before they (Keith in particular) started doing things that were far off from the studio albums. YCAGWYW from Live At The Max springs to mind
The funniest thing he did must be on the Live At The Tokyo Dome-album, where he is downright sabotaging Matt's synth guitar solo after 2000 LYFH
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
Taylor1
()
Date: January 10, 2024 12:46
This all presupposes that in a live experience trying to replicate exactly how the song sounded on record is better than doing it differently.Although I really like the 1989- 1990, the looser jamming earlier is just as good.I think the earlier extended playing on songs detracted from Mick being the focal point.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: January 10, 2024 14:34
Quote
Taylor1
This all presupposes that in a live experience trying to replicate exactly how the song sounded on record is better than doing it differently.Although I really like the 1989- 1990, the looser jamming earlier is just as good.I think the earlier extended playing on songs detracted from Mick being the focal point.
There is advantages in both approaches. That of trying to replicate the studio original or that of interpreting the song in a different way. Dylan is the extremist of the latter.
I need to say that I grew up expecting the songs sounding different on stage - like that what live version is all about. It like added a new dimension to a song. Not just with the Stones, but with almost anybody. Probably some of that was not so much to do with any artistic decision, but that of not even being possible to recreate the studio original, especially if there a lot of studio capacities used. So the songs needed to be re-arranged to work on stage, taking the limitations there.
I would say the approach the Stones have taken since 1989 - trying to be somewhat faithful to studio originals - is something that works very well in concerts, and I think one crucial reason for the longetivity of their success as a concert draw. People - so called casual fans - hear the songs as they recall and are familiar with them. I mean, it is not just hearing the songs they want to hear, but also that of them sounding like they suppose to sound. And in a concert all are in the same line: the hardcore fans are as excited hearing the songs no matter how they are played. It's da Stones, man - here and now! Those with stamp collecting mentality - looking for obscure, not that much played songs - do not care if the song is Chuck Leavell-lead close approximation of the original, if they hear, say, "She Smiled Sweetly". 'Got that one!'
Anyway, my personal experience from 1989 on live material is that no matter how much I love hearing the songs live in a concert, I have not much interest listening them outside of that first-hand concert experience. They do not add much to the studio originals, and usually they are just weaker versions of them, as one cannot being without making the comparison (and live versions do not alter that much from each other in arrangement). Surely there are expectations to a rule, but the over-all impression is like that. The result is that I have not much interest to any post-1989 live material. I give them an occasional listen/watch, especially if there is a new product out, but I very rarely feel urge to go back to them.
It is totally different with the earlier stuff, all the way to 1982. It is exciting to listen how the songs differ from their studio counterparts. You know, what kind of decisions they made in arranging to work on stage. Especially making live versions of BEGGARS BANQUET and LET IT BLEED material - pretty much a studio band effort - during the early Taylor years is among the most interesting things the Stones ever have artistically done. Of course, bootlegs tell it all in detail, but GET YER YA-YA'S OUT! alone is an incredible musical statement of its own. "Flash", "Love In vain", "Rambler", "Sympathy", "Stray Cat", "Street Fighting Man" etc. got a new clothing (hmm... that sounds too lame - there is more there, even some substantial difference, and like the songs stand on their own as live versions).
But it doesn't stop there. The 1969 tour was like a rough blueprint for the rest to follow. It is exciting to follow how the 'road versions' - as Keith calls them - develop and alter as the band changes over the years. A new tour and a new sound (in a way, 1989/90 still belongs to that story, since the songs sound so different compared to their earlier live versions). The Taylor tours from 1969 to 1973 were a story of their own - the songs were reshaped along the ride, almost from gig to gig. The guitar fiesta of BRUSSELS AFFAIR - the band hot and speedy as hell - is a kind of culmination of that evolution process. Then we had tours with Woody and with who else - 1975/76 is an animal of its own, as is 1978 and then 1981/82.
I don't claim that there aren't changes since 1989 - there surely are - but usually for me the difference between gigs - or tours - since then is how well the band delivers in a given night - say, if Keith is on or doing something funny or not - not that there is something musically distinctive as far as the versions or arrangements go. But that's just me. Let's say I am spoiled by the past in that sense. Basically I am just an old fart bounded by my old listening habits.
- Doxa
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-10 16:11 by Doxa.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
dedospegajosos
()
Date: January 10, 2024 14:52
Pardon my ignorance, but what are the outtakes that one can find on the singles?
Is it 2000 Lightyears, I Just Want to..., Play With Fire and Undercover? Am I missing something? Thanks!!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-10 14:53 by dedospegajosos.
Is it 2000 Lightyears, I Just Want to..., Play With Fire and Undercover? Am I missing something? Thanks!!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-10 14:53 by dedospegajosos.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: January 10, 2024 17:02
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Still loving the album. It sounds better than 7th of July and the others, with the exception of Atlantic City.
Regarding arranging the songs to sound like the originals, that is indeed true. However, it didn't take long before they (Keith in particular) started doing things that were far off from the studio albums. YCAGWYW from Live At The Max springs to mind
The funniest thing he did must be on the Live At The Tokyo Dome-album, where he is downright sabotaging Matt's synth guitar solo after 2000 LYFH
I have to say that having now listened a lot FLASHPOINT and other releases from 1989/90 tours I have a new appreciation to that era (great with the Stones and their long career is that there is so much to discover - some things or phases have been for some reason have left unnoticed for some time, until one picks up them and sees the unique greatness in there. With this band, the greatness comes in many forms).
It is not the fault of STEEL WHEELS/URBAN JUNGLE tour that the concept has been probably even over-used since then. They hit the jackpot there, and the old pragmatic rule is that no reason to change a winning concept. But the concept was fresh then, and the band did something they had never done before - that's artistically challenging and always a big plus in my book. And one can hear the novelty factor and the inspiration there. How much they work their asses off. Surely, like I said earlier, I like them being more relaxed later - and already then taking some freedoms, as you pointed out re Keith - but there is a certain charm them taking that rigid, almost purist attitude back then. Kind of 'once in a life time' attempt - and the band comes out as winners.
And Atlantic City could be individually one of the best Stones concerts ever. The band was hot as hell, with all the cylinders on. Shit, take "Bitch" - can anyone play rock and roll any better than that? They play just so incredibly well - so damn tight, but still having a groove like no one else.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-10 17:15 by Doxa.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 10, 2024 17:06
Not really outtakes, but there were a few more released from the tours:
Sympathy For The Devil (live): From the Highwire EP
Tumbling Dice: Extra track on CD-single Jumping Jack Flash (from Live at the Max)
Street Fighting Man: Extra track on CD-single Jumping Jack Flash (from Live at the Max)
Harlem Shuffle: Extra track on CD-Single Ruby Tuesday
Gimme Shelter: 1993 charity single
Sympathy For The Devil (live): From the Highwire EP
Tumbling Dice: Extra track on CD-single Jumping Jack Flash (from Live at the Max)
Street Fighting Man: Extra track on CD-single Jumping Jack Flash (from Live at the Max)
Harlem Shuffle: Extra track on CD-Single Ruby Tuesday
Gimme Shelter: 1993 charity single
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
dedospegajosos
()
Date: January 10, 2024 17:22
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Not really outtakes, but there were a few more released from the tours:
Sympathy For The Devil (live): From the Highwire EP
Tumbling Dice: Extra track on CD-single Jumping Jack Flash (from Live at the Max)
Street Fighting Man: Extra track on CD-single Jumping Jack Flash (from Live at the Max)
Harlem Shuffle: Extra track on CD-Single Ruby Tuesday
Gimme Shelter: 1993 charity single
Where can I find those? Not in the singles collection box set right?
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 10, 2024 17:46
Check Discogs. Here's more info on the JJF cd-single:
[www.45worlds.com]
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-10 17:50 by DandelionPowderman.
[www.45worlds.com]
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-10 17:50 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
MononoM
()
Date: January 10, 2024 17:50
Live at the MAX was released in The Netherlands only. There are some available on [www.discogs.com] (edit, bit prizy though...)Quote
dedospegajososQuote
DandelionPowderman
Not really outtakes, but there were a few more released from the tours:
Sympathy For The Devil (live): From the Highwire EP
Tumbling Dice: Extra track on CD-single Jumping Jack Flash (from Live at the Max)
Street Fighting Man: Extra track on CD-single Jumping Jack Flash (from Live at the Max)
Harlem Shuffle: Extra track on CD-Single Ruby Tuesday
Gimme Shelter: 1993 charity single
Where can I find those? Not in the singles collection box set right?
Think i bought mine in Rotterdam at the Imax in Rotterdam, my copy got this hype sticker
too.
I don;t know about the charity single.
Life's just a cocktail party on the street
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-10 17:56 by MononoM.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
schwonek
()
Date: January 10, 2024 23:54
My first live album, my first tour with the Stones. Great memories. Still my fav is LYL.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
LeonidP
()
Date: January 11, 2024 03:53
Interesting! I have the Highwire 12" and never thought much of it - I just figured Sympathy was the same version as on the Flashpoint album, so I don't even think that I have ever played it.
I also notice that 2000 Light Years is 5:10s in length, significantly longer than the 3:25s version that was shortened for the 7" b-side.
I guess I need to rip this tonight!
** edit ... forget that about 2000 Light Years, it is the same length, I can see on the 12" single. I was looking at an incorrect length as shown at the discogs site:
[www.discogs.com]
Well at least I can rip a different version of Sympathy For the Devil
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-11 03:59 by LeonidP.
I also notice that 2000 Light Years is 5:10s in length, significantly longer than the 3:25s version that was shortened for the 7" b-side.
I guess I need to rip this tonight!
** edit ... forget that about 2000 Light Years, it is the same length, I can see on the 12" single. I was looking at an incorrect length as shown at the discogs site:
[www.discogs.com]
Well at least I can rip a different version of Sympathy For the Devil
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-11 03:59 by LeonidP.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
LeonidP
()
Date: January 11, 2024 04:43
Well nothing new on the Highwire 12" ...
"Sympathy For The Devil (live): From the Highwire EP" is the same version as on the Flashpoint album.
"2000 Light Years from Home" is the shorter/edit, same as other b-sides.
And not only does Dicogs site have the time incorrect for 2000 Light Years, but it is also incorrect on the label of the 12" single, listed as 5:10 (although the outer sleave does list the correct 3:25 time). So that's where Discogs probably got the time from. And the incorrect time on the label probably was a misprint copying the same time as Sympathy for the Devil.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-11 04:43 by LeonidP.
"Sympathy For The Devil (live): From the Highwire EP" is the same version as on the Flashpoint album.
"2000 Light Years from Home" is the shorter/edit, same as other b-sides.
And not only does Dicogs site have the time incorrect for 2000 Light Years, but it is also incorrect on the label of the 12" single, listed as 5:10 (although the outer sleave does list the correct 3:25 time). So that's where Discogs probably got the time from. And the incorrect time on the label probably was a misprint copying the same time as Sympathy for the Devil.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-11 04:43 by LeonidP.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: January 11, 2024 11:29
Quote
Doxa
And Atlantic City could be individually one of the best Stones concerts ever. The band was hot as hell, with all the cylinders on. Shit, take "Bitch" - can anyone play rock and roll any better than that? They play just so incredibly well - so damn tight, but still having a groove like no one else.
- Doxa
I am really amazed by the Tokyo 1990 concerts, they are just fantastic. They were hot from the 1989 tour, and for whatever reason (no drugs in Japan....) Keith is as sharp as a knife. His playing really elevates the new songs like Rock and a Hard Place and Almost Hear You Sigh. And due to the mix it must be Bill's greatest tour as well.
Mathijs
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
UrbanSteel
()
Date: January 11, 2024 13:21
Quote
MononoMLive at the MAX was released in The Netherlands only. There are some available on [www.discogs.com] (edit, bit prizy though...)Quote
dedospegajososQuote
DandelionPowderman
Not really outtakes, but there were a few more released from the tours:
Sympathy For The Devil (live): From the Highwire EP
Tumbling Dice: Extra track on CD-single Jumping Jack Flash (from Live at the Max)
Street Fighting Man: Extra track on CD-single Jumping Jack Flash (from Live at the Max)
Harlem Shuffle: Extra track on CD-Single Ruby Tuesday
Gimme Shelter: 1993 charity single
Where can I find those? Not in the singles collection box set right?
Think i bought mine in Rotterdam at the Imax in Rotterdam, my copy got this hype sticker
too.
I don;t know about the charity single.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-11 13:36 by UrbanSteel.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
Taylor1
()
Date: January 13, 2024 01:32
For me, the twin peaks of the Stones’ live are 1972-1973, and 1989-1990
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
MelBelli
()
Date: January 14, 2024 19:43
I’m sure this has been talked about before, so, apologies in advance, but did Ronnie overdub a b-bender part for SMU here?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-14 19:47 by MelBelli.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-14 19:47 by MelBelli.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: January 14, 2024 22:39
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Still loving the album. It sounds better than 7th of July and the others, with the exception of Atlantic City.
Regarding arranging the songs to sound like the originals, that is indeed true. However, it didn't take long before they (Keith in particular) started doing things that were far off from the studio albums. YCAGWYW from Live At The Max springs to mind
The funniest thing he did must be on the Live At The Tokyo Dome-album, where he is downright sabotaging Matt's synth guitar solo after 2000 LYFH
7th Of July sounds awesome though!
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: January 14, 2024 22:41
Quote
MelBelli
I’m sure this has been talked about before, so, apologies in advance, but did Ronnie overdub a b-bender part for SMU here?
The guitar solo is overdubbed.
It's too bad the Atlantic City PPV version wasn't used - it's excellent.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 14, 2024 23:45
Quote
GasLightStreetQuote
DandelionPowderman
Still loving the album. It sounds better than 7th of July and the others, with the exception of Atlantic City.
Regarding arranging the songs to sound like the originals, that is indeed true. However, it didn't take long before they (Keith in particular) started doing things that were far off from the studio albums. YCAGWYW from Live At The Max springs to mind
The funniest thing he did must be on the Live At The Tokyo Dome-album, where he is downright sabotaging Matt's synth guitar solo after 2000 LYFH
7th Of July sounds awesome though!
Indeed. However, the guitars are too clean, imo.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
ironbelly
()
Date: January 15, 2024 00:35
Jumpin' Jack Flash was released in several countries in Europe. Those that had IMAX theaters at the time.Quote
MononoMLive at the MAX was released in The Netherlands only. There are some available on [www.discogs.com] (edit, bit prizy though...)Quote
dedospegajososQuote
DandelionPowderman
Not really outtakes, but there were a few more released from the tours:
Sympathy For The Devil (live): From the Highwire EP
Tumbling Dice: Extra track on CD-single Jumping Jack Flash (from Live at the Max)
Street Fighting Man: Extra track on CD-single Jumping Jack Flash (from Live at the Max)
Harlem Shuffle: Extra track on CD-Single Ruby Tuesday
Gimme Shelter: 1993 charity single
Where can I find those? Not in the singles collection box set right?
Think i bought mine in Rotterdam at the Imax in Rotterdam, my copy got this hype sticker
too.
I don;t know about the charity single.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-15 00:36 by ironbelly.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
Sighunt
()
Date: January 15, 2024 01:00
Quote
liddas
Never understood why people consider the 89/90 tour to be a sort of recreation of the studio versions. Only because Devil returns to be a piano driven song?
Very simply it was Jagger's 88 solo show template adapted to the stones.
And Jagger's solo show was heavily influenced by what the big acts of the time where doing (Jackson, Madonna, Police, Prince, Bowie etc.), by the sounds of the 80's (synths, loops etc.), and, probably mostly, by what technology allowed to do on stage.
I don't think that the so called professional version of the band that was born with that tour had anything to do with Jagger being fed up with the sloppiness of the previous tours. That's BS. The band HAD to standardize its output so that lights, screens, inflatable dolls and so on could function in sinc.
Jagger always loved the extended jams because being the stage animal that he is, he knows that that is the time for him to work the crowds - and rest his voice too -
C
I saw your post and I would have to agree with part of it. From what I read at the time, it appeared that Jagger was influenced by what was going on with then current music trends. And I also believe your observation is on point that a lot of the Stones re-arrangement of classic tunes on the Steel Wheels stemmed from "Jagger's 88 solo show template adapted to the stones."
But I have to disagree with your assessment that "the so called professional version of the band that was born with that tour had anything to do with Jagger being fed up with the sloppiness of the previous tours."
And once again, I'm drawing from what insider Bill German observed at the time and reported in his book. Jagger's mindset was that he did not think that the Stones previous loose/raw/ idiosyncratic (i.e "road versions" or whatever you want to call it) style of playing would be endearing to a modern (circa 1989) audience, and in order to reach the largest demographic (and not just the hardcore Stones fans), the decision was made to play the hits the way the people remembered them (which produced a more professional, polished ensemble). Once again, it was more a business decision at the time.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-15 02:00 by Sighunt.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
liddas
()
Date: January 15, 2024 17:43
Quote
SighuntQuote
liddas
Never understood why people consider the 89/90 tour to be a sort of recreation of the studio versions. Only because Devil returns to be a piano driven song?
Very simply it was Jagger's 88 solo show template adapted to the stones.
And Jagger's solo show was heavily influenced by what the big acts of the time where doing (Jackson, Madonna, Police, Prince, Bowie etc.), by the sounds of the 80's (synths, loops etc.), and, probably mostly, by what technology allowed to do on stage.
I don't think that the so called professional version of the band that was born with that tour had anything to do with Jagger being fed up with the sloppiness of the previous tours. That's BS. The band HAD to standardize its output so that lights, screens, inflatable dolls and so on could function in sinc.
Jagger always loved the extended jams because being the stage animal that he is, he knows that that is the time for him to work the crowds - and rest his voice too -
C
I saw your post and I would have to agree with part of it. From what I read at the time, it appeared that Jagger was influenced by what was going on with then current music trends. And I also believe your observation is on point that a lot of the Stones re-arrangement of classic tunes on the Steel Wheels stemmed from "Jagger's 88 solo show template adapted to the stones."
But I have to disagree with your assessment that "the so called professional version of the band that was born with that tour had anything to do with Jagger being fed up with the sloppiness of the previous tours."
And once again, I'm drawing from what insider Bill German observed at the time and reported in his book. Jagger's mindset was that he did not think that the Stones previous loose/raw/ idiosyncratic (i.e "road versions" or whatever you want to call it) style of playing would be endearing to a modern (circa 1989) audience, and in order to reach the largest demographic (and not just the hardcore Stones fans), the decision was made to play the hits the way the people remembered them (which produced a more professional, polished ensemble). Once again, it was more a business decision at the time.
In fact I completely agree with you in half (to quote a Roma football player of some years ago) also on the second point. What I meant to say is that what we call the professional version of the band was in fact a shared artistic decision (very likely "suggested by Mick") to make the show the most effective and not - as I have read here many times - the condition imposed by Mick on the Keith to allow the Stones to continue touring or for him to tour with the stones, which is the same.
Same as in the past: they added an ace soloist to the set when solos where popular, sort of changed direction when punk buried glam, and so on.
To my ears, the Stones - in their canon - always were a very tight band. Of course, on very large stages with the technology of the 60 and 70s, shit happened more often.
So my point is that the perceived extra tightness of the 89 tour is mainly related to the addition of extra musicians on stage, and the need to balance all of them in the mix, as noted by Ronnie and Keith in the passages quoted by Doxa above.
One thing is sure though, no matter what Jagger and the rest of the band thought when they decided to recover touches of the origial studio arrangements here and there, 90% of those attending the concert couldn't tell the difference between a piano and guitar version of Devil, and even if they could, they wouldn't give a damn as long as Mick does his thing
C
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-15 17:45 by liddas.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: January 16, 2024 06:05
Quote
liddasQuote
SighuntQuote
liddas
Never understood why people consider the 89/90 tour to be a sort of recreation of the studio versions. Only because Devil returns to be a piano driven song?
Very simply it was Jagger's 88 solo show template adapted to the stones.
And Jagger's solo show was heavily influenced by what the big acts of the time where doing (Jackson, Madonna, Police, Prince, Bowie etc.), by the sounds of the 80's (synths, loops etc.), and, probably mostly, by what technology allowed to do on stage.
I don't think that the so called professional version of the band that was born with that tour had anything to do with Jagger being fed up with the sloppiness of the previous tours. That's BS. The band HAD to standardize its output so that lights, screens, inflatable dolls and so on could function in sinc.
Jagger always loved the extended jams because being the stage animal that he is, he knows that that is the time for him to work the crowds - and rest his voice too -
C
I saw your post and I would have to agree with part of it. From what I read at the time, it appeared that Jagger was influenced by what was going on with then current music trends. And I also believe your observation is on point that a lot of the Stones re-arrangement of classic tunes on the Steel Wheels stemmed from "Jagger's 88 solo show template adapted to the stones."
But I have to disagree with your assessment that "the so called professional version of the band that was born with that tour had anything to do with Jagger being fed up with the sloppiness of the previous tours."
And once again, I'm drawing from what insider Bill German observed at the time and reported in his book. Jagger's mindset was that he did not think that the Stones previous loose/raw/ idiosyncratic (i.e "road versions" or whatever you want to call it) style of playing would be endearing to a modern (circa 1989) audience, and in order to reach the largest demographic (and not just the hardcore Stones fans), the decision was made to play the hits the way the people remembered them (which produced a more professional, polished ensemble). Once again, it was more a business decision at the time.
In fact I completely agree with you in half (to quote a Roma football player of some years ago) also on the second point. What I meant to say is that what we call the professional version of the band was in fact a shared artistic decision (very likely "suggested by Mick") to make the show the most effective and not - as I have read here many times - the condition imposed by Mick on the Keith to allow the Stones to continue touring or for him to tour with the stones, which is the same.
Same as in the past: they added an ace soloist to the set when solos where popular, sort of changed direction when punk buried glam, and so on.
To my ears, the Stones - in their canon - always were a very tight band. Of course, on very large stages with the technology of the 60 and 70s, shit happened more often.
So my point is that the perceived extra tightness of the 89 tour is mainly related to the addition of extra musicians on stage, and the need to balance all of them in the mix, as noted by Ronnie and Keith in the passages quoted by Doxa above.
One thing is sure though, no matter what Jagger and the rest of the band thought when they decided to recover touches of the origial studio arrangements here and there, 90% of those attending the concert couldn't tell the difference between a piano and guitar version of Devil, and even if they could, they wouldn't give a damn as long as Mick does his thing
C
They dropped One Hit.
That kinda says something in regard to their approach then - it simply didn't work.
Not everything was like or similar to the studio version. Start Me Up was a gazillion times better. Miss You was upbeat. Tumbling Dice was... precise.
Of course, new songs or ones they'd never played live (or eons ago) before don't count.
SFTD changed drastically. It's arguable, I guess, that it was closer to the studio version. It wasn't - but they paid homage to it. When it kicked in with the band, well, then it was different but not like previously. But it hasn't changed since since 1989. Which is kind of weird.
Re: LIVE ALBUM TALK: Flashpoint
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: January 16, 2024 10:09
Quote
GasLightStreet
SFTD changed drastically. It's arguable, I guess, that it was closer to the studio version. It wasn't - but they paid homage to it. When it kicked in with the band, well, then it was different but not like previously. But it hasn't changed since since 1989. Which is kind of weird.
The approach to the 1989 tour was clearly to get closer to the studio versions, and to present a more professional version of the band. It's probably a mix of Jagger's idea that he already showed in 1988, but also the flavor and technology of the day, with the new technology of electronic drums, synthesizers, loops and samples. It was the first time the percussion of Sympathy could be done during a live concert as it was sampled, the harmonica of Miss You was a close approximation of Sugar Blue's harmonica, 2000 Light Years could be played live as the Mellotron could be approximated by synths.
One Hit didn't work live, as it is just a too light weight song. It's a great intro, a great guitar riff, but there's no real chorus and it's just doesn't go anywhere after the first verse.
Mathijs
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