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blivet

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Naturalust
I can only imagine part of the issue with this record was Keith's declining condition, after 7 years as a junkie I think he had pretty much taken all the could get creatively from heroin and was starting to experience the downhill slide. The point where the drugs became as important or more to him than the music. This record kind of represents everyone else coming in to carry the weight to me.

Absolutely. You can see the heavy dependence on Billy Preston and the stable of guitarists they were auditioning to flesh things out. With all that, they could only come up with eight songs, none of which, IMO, is worth listening to. The quality ranges from mediocre to cringe-inducing. Most Stones LPs, even the classics, have a stinker (it's part of the charm), but this is a whole album full. I tried so hard to like this record when it came out, but really, there's nothing there.

Agreed when Keith is not ON the Stones decline
Do you see a pattern here.
The Stones at best are when Keith fires on all 4 cylinders, the rest is She's The Boss

A few unkempt observations:

~ Someone perceptive once pointed out that this album is the last one on which Keith does that classic Keith Harmony Thing
of just touching the lines with his voice, coming and going in unexpected lopsided ways that are just beautiful.

~ Reading back in the thread I see some problem with Cherry Oh Baby - whether it's reggae or not, etc.
But that's not important - those wildcat-in-heat backing vocals are worth the price of admission. Can't get enough!

~ I originally said it as a joke, but I've convinced myself it's actually right:
Crazy Mama is about Mick T.

Well Keith was depending on smack until he met Patti and with her help really tried to quit in 1980. He wasnt cleaner during Some Girls.

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Naturalust

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DandelionPowderman

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Naturalust

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DandelionPowderman
A letdown after GHS and IORR? Not for me.

I guess my feeling was that they were going to continue the truly great record run of which I though GHS was firmly included. I was willing to give them one less than stellar attempt (IORR) but when I heard B & B I kind of knew it wasn't just a fluke and the mediocrity had set in. Of course Some Girls was a great comeback but still a departure from flavor of rock that I loved so much about the Stones. It's all a matter of taste as you know, easy to judge now that the years have passed, perhaps a bit more difficult in the context of the times.

Interesting that exactly zero of these songs have been included inn the Stones latest tour, I think they know it wasn't their best music either.

That's why they have played every song on this album in concert?

No, I think they love this album and songs from these sessions. They did play both Memory Motel and at least Worried About You quite frequently last year.

Very often they rehearse Hot Stuff and Fool To Cry.

Maybe you're right but I can't recall any of the tunes played or even up for fan vote on the latest tour. Timeisonourside says Crazy Mama was played in 2015, do you know which show that was?

Yeah, forgot about CM. It was early on the tour, if memory serves.

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DandelionPowderman
Yeah, forgot about CM. It was early on the tour, if memory serves.

It was played at the private Belly Up show, right?

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GasLightStreet
Sorry to put a lump in your event horizon of mentalscaping iorr.org, Olly. I'll do better next time to make it more congealing of the coagulation that you like subjectly.

You are anispeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous to have caused me such pericombobulation.

[youtu.be]

.....

Olly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-22 23:19 by Olly.

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Redhotcarpet
Well Keith was depending on smack until he met Patti and with her help really tried to quit in 1980. He wasnt cleaner during Some Girls.

This is interesting. Keith himself said he gave up smack in 78' but you know better than the man himself
Interesting, tell more

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DandelionPowderman

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Naturalust

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DandelionPowderman

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Naturalust

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DandelionPowderman
A letdown after GHS and IORR? Not for me.

I guess my feeling was that they were going to continue the truly great record run of which I though GHS was firmly included. I was willing to give them one less than stellar attempt (IORR) but when I heard B & B I kind of knew it wasn't just a fluke and the mediocrity had set in. Of course Some Girls was a great comeback but still a departure from flavor of rock that I loved so much about the Stones. It's all a matter of taste as you know, easy to judge now that the years have passed, perhaps a bit more difficult in the context of the times.

Interesting that exactly zero of these songs have been included inn the Stones latest tour, I think they know it wasn't their best music either.

That's why they have played every song on this album in concert?

No, I think they love this album and songs from these sessions. They did play both Memory Motel and at least Worried About You quite frequently last year.

Very often they rehearse Hot Stuff and Fool To Cry.

Maybe you're right but I can't recall any of the tunes played or even up for fan vote on the latest tour. Timeisonourside says Crazy Mama was played in 2015, do you know which show that was?

Yeah, forgot about CM. It was early on the tour, if memory serves.

Just checked the set lists and it was at the Belly Up, go figure! In any case that was the only time they played a song from B&B on the Zip Code Tour. Crazy Mama was last played on July 6, 1998.

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keefriffhards

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Redhotcarpet
Well Keith was depending on smack until he met Patti and with her help really tried to quit in 1980. He wasnt cleaner during Some Girls.

This is interesting. Keith himself said he gave up smack in 78' but you know better than the man himself
Interesting, tell more

I read that Richards underwent a long term treatment with methadone to help him kick his heroine addiction, so Patty dated a methadone addict.

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LuxuryStones

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keefriffhards

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Redhotcarpet
Well Keith was depending on smack until he met Patti and with her help really tried to quit in 1980. He wasnt cleaner during Some Girls.

This is interesting. Keith himself said he gave up smack in 78' but you know better than the man himself
Interesting, tell more

I read that Richards underwent a long term treatment with methadone to help him kick his heroine addiction.

So what year we talk'in about dude
He had the black box treatment a couple of times yeah
Heroin was Keith's bag not methadone
I want to know why redcarpet said he was still on smack in 1980



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-22 23:44 by keefriffhards.

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LuxuryStones

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keefriffhards

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Redhotcarpet
Well Keith was depending on smack until he met Patti and with her help really tried to quit in 1980. He wasnt cleaner during Some Girls.

This is interesting. Keith himself said he gave up smack in 78' but you know better than the man himself
Interesting, tell more

I read that Richards underwent a long term treatment with methadone to help him kick his heroine addiction, so Patty dated a methadone addict.

I'm not an expert here but from what I've read of Keith talking about methadone, he was totally against that type of treatment and has spoken with some disgust about it. Likely, he gave it a try and that's probably where he developed such a strong opinion about it. I doubt very much he was on methadone when he was dating Patti. I think Keith took more of a black box, cold turkey, plenty of alcohol and other drugs approach to kicking smack.

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Naturalust

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LuxuryStones

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keefriffhards

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Redhotcarpet
Well Keith was depending on smack until he met Patti and with her help really tried to quit in 1980. He wasnt cleaner during Some Girls.

This is interesting. Keith himself said he gave up smack in 78' but you know better than the man himself
Interesting, tell more

I read that Richards underwent a long term treatment with methadone to help him kick his heroine addiction, so Patty dated a methadone addict.

I'm not an expert here but from what I've read of Keith talking about methadone, he was totally against that type of treatment and has spoken with some disgust about it. Likely, he gave it a try and that's probably where he developed such a strong opinion about it. I doubt very much he was on methadone when he was dating Patti. I think Keith took more of a black box, cold turkey, plenty of alcohol and other drugs approach to kicking smack.

This is pretty much what i thought too
Can Redhotcarpet tell us where he heard that Keith was not clean of heroin until 1980

There is a story about Keith injecting methadone with Jim Carrol in 1980, before Carrol's gig where Keith guested.

Apart from that I've never heard about Keith using the drug as treatment.

Its in at least two or three books maybe also in Life. He said he had to carry a piece when he bought heroin when he was supposedly clean. He seemes to have made the last real effort sometime in March 1980. He did not quit the last time in 1978 but had to maintain the off heroin image from the 1978 tour onwards. Read old gods, life, the 1980 kris ??? (Whats his name) Interview, bockris book and various statemeants ( contradicting as always) with keith. I think youre very naive to think he took a black box cure and then stated off smack. It took him three years after Toronto not three days. He made several attempts though. And he pulled through.

He said something about methadone and cocaine gave him the heroin buzz. I guess he was indeed helped by methadone but perhaps some other treatmeant in 1980. I dunno.

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Naturalust

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LuxuryStones

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keefriffhards

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Redhotcarpet
Well Keith was depending on smack until he met Patti and with her help really tried to quit in 1980. He wasnt cleaner during Some Girls.

This is interesting. Keith himself said he gave up smack in 78' but you know better than the man himself
Interesting, tell more

I read that Richards underwent a long term treatment with methadone to help him kick his heroine addiction, so Patty dated a methadone addict.

I'm not an expert here but from what I've read of Keith talking about methadone, he was totally against that type of treatment and has spoken with some disgust about it. Likely, he gave it a try and that's probably where he developed such a strong opinion about it. I doubt very much he was on methadone when he was dating Patti. I think Keith took more of a black box, cold turkey, plenty of alcohol and other drugs approach to kicking smack.

In that interview he stated that they gave him "this medical thing" as a substitute for heroine, so he probably used it for a certain period, but maybe he quit this stuff after a short time. Booze and coke had been on his menu years before already, until he fell out of that tree.
That's Rock & Roll.

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Redhotcarpet
Its in at least two or three books maybe also in Life. He said he had to carry a piece when he bought heroin when he was supposedly clean. He seemes to have made the last real effort sometime in March 1980. He did not quit the last time in 1978 but had to maintain the off heroin image from the 1978 tour onwards. Read old gods, life, the 1980 kris ??? (Whats his name) Interview, bockris book and various statemeants ( contradicting as always) with keith. I think youre very naive to think he took a black box cure and then stated off smack. It took him three years after Toronto not three days. He made several attempts though. And he pulled through.

Thanks for sharing . I had no idea

Getting back on topic here I do recall that Keith, after being initially happy with the result on B&B, came to see this as a period where the Stones were relying too much on side musicians and parlayed that feeling into the more stripped down Some Girls line up and instrumentation. He was right, imo.

I think he was right and wrong Naturalist. Some Girls is more focused on guitars but the more constructed orchestred in a way maybe B&B is better in that way. They are totally different productions. I see Some Girls as a very goid PR package with a couple of really good songs ( My bob shattered) and btmmr is good.

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Naturalust
Getting back on topic here I do recall that Keith, after being initially happy with the result on B&B, came to see this as a period where the Stones were relying too much on side musicians and parlayed that feeling into the more stripped down Some Girls line up and instrumentation. He was right, imo.

Getting back on topic you say !! Well you brought drugs into it lol

Naturalust
I can only imagine part of the issue with this record was Keith's declining condition, after 7 years as a junkie I think he had pretty much taken all the could get creatively from heroin and was starting to experience the downhill slide. The point where the drugs became as important or more to him than the music. This record kind of represents everyone else coming in to carry the weight to me.[/quote]

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Redhotcarpet
My bob shattered.

Condolences on the shattering of your bob, carpet. I hate when that happens.

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keefriffhards

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Naturalust
Getting back on topic here I do recall that Keith, after being initially happy with the result on B&B, came to see this as a period where the Stones were relying too much on side musicians and parlayed that feeling into the more stripped down Some Girls line up and instrumentation. He was right, imo.

Getting back on topic you say !! Well you brought drugs into it lol

Naturalust
I can only imagine part of the issue with this record was Keith's declining condition, after 7 years as a junkie I think he had pretty much taken all the could get creatively from heroin and was starting to experience the downhill slide. The point where the drugs became as important or more to him than the music. This record kind of represents everyone else coming in to carry the weight to me.

[/quote]

Yes I did, but it was in the context of the B&B record and imo on topic to the discussion. The whole issue of when exactly Keith got off heroin and how he did so, while an interesting and valid discussion, obviously has nothing to do with the B&B record and perhaps my realization that I contributed to that detour inspired my attempt to steer the discussion back to B&B. And along those lines I will quote Lester Bangs description of the record:

"...the heat's off because it's all over, they don't really matter anymore, or stand for anything, which is certainly lucky for both them and us. I mean it was a heavy weight to carry for all concerned. This is the first meaningless Stones album, and thank God."

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Bashlets
overall, I think it has aged very well. Although it was initially trashed by critics when it came out, I think the attitude has changed about this one.

And, not just the critics. Mick and Keith gave it some real backhanded swipes themselves around the time that Some Girls came out. I think they sincerely had no use for it. But it has aged well. Stuck as it is in time, in my opinion as a stand alone between two really different eras in Stones music.

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Naturalust

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keefriffhards

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Naturalust
Getting back on topic here I do recall that Keith, after being initially happy with the result on B&B, came to see this as a period where the Stones were relying too much on side musicians and parlayed that feeling into the more stripped down Some Girls line up and instrumentation. He was right, imo.

Getting back on topic you say !! Well you brought drugs into it lol

Naturalust
I can only imagine part of the issue with this record was Keith's declining condition, after 7 years as a junkie I think he had pretty much taken all the could get creatively from heroin and was starting to experience the downhill slide. The point where the drugs became as important or more to him than the music. This record kind of represents everyone else coming in to carry the weight to me.

Yes I did, but it was in the context of the B&B record and imo on topic to the discussion. The whole issue of when exactly Keith got off heroin and how he did so, while an interesting and valid discussion, obviously has nothing to do with the B&B record and perhaps my realization that I contributed to that detour inspired my attempt to steer the discussion back to B&B. And along those lines I will quote Lester Bangs description of the record:

"...the heat's off because it's all over, they don't really matter anymore, or stand for anything, which is certainly lucky for both them and us. I mean it was a heavy weight to carry for all concerned. This is the first meaningless Stones album, and thank God."[/quote]

Lester summed it up nicely right there. It's not rather it was a bad or good album really. In 1976 it was an irrelevant album. That's why SG was the "comeback" few probably expected or predicted. Love or hate it, SG is an urgent, relevant album by a band that played like it had something to prove and it did. In the long run Keith's bust in '77 probably saved both his life and the band's. B&B has a great "sound" but for the most part the songs weren't there. It's an interesting companion piece with LZ's Presence, not soundwise, but moreso, two albums recorded in the same studio by bands lost in their own cocoon of indulgence and indulgences blissfully unaware of what would occur shortly after those albums dropped in spring of '76. Punk was the gamechanger. Both groups followed up with albums that sounded nothing their predecessors, especially in LZ's case. Because of this Presence and B&B will always be linked together. Both bands sounded irrelevant and out of touch.

I love B & B ... It's such a great mix of songs with amazing music.

Hot Stuff - Nice & funky!
Hand of Fate - What amazing guitars! Up there with my favorite Stones tracks.
Cherry Oh Baby - The Jamaican influence takes off! They perfect that beat, fantastic! Thank you Ronnie!
Memory Motel - Superb ballad, love the keyboards and especially the singing by both Mick & Keith
Hey Negrita - Thank you Ronnie! Far superior to Hot Stuff, I think it would have been the better album opener.
Melody - I know not popular, but another great one for me. I never skip this great duet.
Fool to Cry - Easily the worst track. Not terrible but the reason the album is not on my Stones classic list.
Crazy Mama - Mick on guitar here, great groove, nice track, not quite up to Hand of Fate quality.

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Naturalust
Getting back on topic here I do recall that Keith, after being initially happy with the result on B&B,
came to see this as a period where the Stones were relying too much on side musicians
and parlayed that feeling into the more stripped down Some Girls line up and instrumentation. He was right, imo.

If we're going to criticize records for having too many side musicians, we've got to include GHS and IORR in that.
Obviously the "auditioning guitarists" on Black & Blue stand out a lot, but IORR (the album)
sounds a lot more gussied up with non-Stones frills and doodads and ticktocks.

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with sssoul

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Naturalust
Getting back on topic here I do recall that Keith, after being initially happy with the result on B&B,
came to see this as a period where the Stones were relying too much on side musicians
and parlayed that feeling into the more stripped down Some Girls line up and instrumentation. He was right, imo.

If we're going to criticize records for having too many side musicians, we've got to include GHS and IORR in that.
Obviously the "auditioning guitarists" on Black & Blue stand out a lot, but IORR (the album)
sounds a lot more gussied up with non-Stones frills and doodads and ticktocks.

Not to forget Exile...

Well yeah but I mean side musicians adding things that don't sound like the Stones.
Strings. Frills. Billy Preston.

Great album with great tunes. One of my favourite Stones albums. It would be great to hear a clean 11 minute version of Hey Negrita.

Listening to BAB right now, on 7" 1/4 reel to reel tape. Sounds great!