It reflects the time period it was released, which is okay. I can get by listening through the whole album without skipping to certain tracks. The album is not too memorable (can be easily be overlooked by some).

But If nothing else it's interesting (for me anyway) as you have three lead guitarists guesting, giving parts of the album a different feel than what had been done before. Plus I like certain songs on it that I can always listen to no matter what my mood (Hot Stuff, Hand of Fate, Memory Motel, Crazy Mama, yes even Fool To Cry and because it's different and has Ron Wood on it Hey Negrita). I'm not getting into whether I like it better than the previous two albums or it is not as good, etc. I like all the Stones albums more or less up to Voodoo Lounge (the last one I've ever purchased in vinyl), in any case.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-24 18:55 by nightskyman.

This album has got the to me completely unappealing "Melody". Apart from that, there is one song that may be OK, but I simply don't like, "Hey Negrita". I am not against "Hand of Fate", and I will not criticize it, but it does not move me either. Then "Cherry Oh Baby" probably is not that great, but I still like it to some extent. " Crazy Mama" maybe is not great either, but I like it quite much. Then there are three songs left, and two of those are really good, "Fool to Cry" and "Hot Stuff", which, the latter, is very interesting as well, with socalled "toasting" about Mick Jagger's vocal from midway through. This aspect of reggae, which I think sometimes is seen as a predecessor to rap, is, however, by the Stones used in a funk song. If that characterization is doubtful, I eagerly want to be corrected. Then the remaining song of the album is its very gem, "Memory Motel".

Taken together, to me BLACK AND BLUE deepens further the relative slump of the band's career that IORR started. But it is a slump that later was to be surpassed negatively by DIRTY WORK especially and STEEL WHEELS. [Personally, I have even greater problems to swallow TATTOO YOU, the way it was made. For instance, with misplaced falsettolike singing on "Hang Fire", but that does not belong here.]

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Witness
... ["Hot Stuff"] is very interesting as well, with so-called "toasting" about Mick Jagger's vocal from midway through.
This aspect of reggae, which I think sometimes is seen as a predecessor to rap, is, however, by the Stones used in a funk song.

I am fascinated and eager to hear exactly what you mean by "toasting", please and thank you!

I cannot strictly define it myself; I have only got an intuitive and slight understanding of the term. It was commented upon in that light when the album was new. And to be certain that I was not completely astray, I googled on the term "toasting in reggae" before posting.

[worldmusic.about.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-24 20:47 by Witness.

Cool - thank you.

Reggae is a predecessor to rap? That's a bit of a stretch, imo. Early Hip Hop drew from the R&B, Soul and motown stuff a bit but I never really heard any correlation with reggae music. In America it seemed to me that reggae was not particularly popular with the hip hop and rap crowd. I guess both genres were based on rhythm more than melodic structure, maybe that's what you are referring to.

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Naturalust
Reggae is a predecessor to rap? That's a bit of a stretch, imo. Early Hip Hop drew from the R&B, Soul and motown stuff a bit but I never really heard any correlation with reggae music. In America it seemed to me that reggae was not particularly popular with the hip hop and rap crowd. I guess both genres were based on rhythm more than melodic structure, maybe that's what you are referring to.

The specific technique of toasting in reggae is widely acknowledged as a precursor to rap, and dubbing a precursor to scratching and sampling.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-24 20:58 by Turner68.

The use that the Stones made of this vocal ingredient from reggae, toasting, more or less, and so early, in a funk song, I wonder if qualifies "Hot Stuff" for being one of their experimental songs in their best tradition for such. Even on this in my view rather moderate album after their most intensive creative period.

Jamaican dub was something the hip hopers were influenced by.

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Turner68

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Naturalust
Reggae is a predecessor to rap? That's a bit of a stretch, imo. Early Hip Hop drew from the R&B, Soul and motown stuff a bit but I never really heard any correlation with reggae music. In America it seemed to me that reggae was not particularly popular with the hip hop and rap crowd. I guess both genres were based on rhythm more than melodic structure, maybe that's what you are referring to.

The specific technique of toasting in reggae is widely acknowledged as a precursor to rap, and dubbing a precursor to scratching and sampling.

OK, I get it now. Thx. Just read a bit about DJ Kool Herc and now understand how the process made it's way to the kids in New York City. Pretty amazing story actually. I guess Mr. Herc has some serious medical issues these days, hoping the best for him.

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Naturalust

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Turner68

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Naturalust
Reggae is a predecessor to rap? That's a bit of a stretch, imo. Early Hip Hop drew from the R&B, Soul and motown stuff a bit but I never really heard any correlation with reggae music. In America it seemed to me that reggae was not particularly popular with the hip hop and rap crowd. I guess both genres were based on rhythm more than melodic structure, maybe that's what you are referring to.

The specific technique of toasting in reggae is widely acknowledged as a precursor to rap, and dubbing a precursor to scratching and sampling.

OK, I get it now. Thx. Just read a bit about DJ Kool Herc and now understand how the process made it's way to the kids in New York City. Pretty amazing story actually. I guess Mr. Herc has some serious medical issues these days, hoping the best for him.

It's fascinating to trace the various threads of music

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Turner68

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Naturalust

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Turner68

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Naturalust
Reggae is a predecessor to rap? That's a bit of a stretch, imo. Early Hip Hop drew from the R&B, Soul and motown stuff a bit but I never really heard any correlation with reggae music. In America it seemed to me that reggae was not particularly popular with the hip hop and rap crowd. I guess both genres were based on rhythm more than melodic structure, maybe that's what you are referring to.

The specific technique of toasting in reggae is widely acknowledged as a precursor to rap, and dubbing a precursor to scratching and sampling.

OK, I get it now. Thx. Just read a bit about DJ Kool Herc and now understand how the process made it's way to the kids in New York City. Pretty amazing story actually. I guess Mr. Herc has some serious medical issues these days, hoping the best for him.

It's fascinating to trace the various threads of music

Yes and as things tend to come full circle, I kind of look at rap like a de-evolution of the form. But of course that's very subjective.

One of the things I find interesting is that people are not inventing instruments, per se, like they once were. It's fascinating to me to think of people experimenting and coming up with things like a piano or a guitar or a french horn for that matter. People seem content to work with what's out there these days even though the process of making new instruments today is likely much easier than it was centuries ago.

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Naturalust
People seem content to work with what's out there these days even though the process of making new instruments today
is likely much easier than it was centuries ago.

Ah but centuries ago there was so much more available to invent! :E

Ahem, I mean: DJ Kool Herc is interesting indeed. I gather his original style was to punctuate funk music
with exhortations to the dancers, so in that respect Hot Stuff would be right on trend

Some interesting thoughts here about mid-70's Rolling Stones and especially about Billy Preston.

It seems all of us seem to have some sort of ideal how the Stones should sound like, and at times they seem to drift too from that ideal. For some people that seems to Billy Preston's influence during the mid-70's (the tours 1975 and 1976 particularly), he taking too much freedoms, or escaping from his 'side man' role. Like for some people Taylor "over-played" in 1973, or, if you like, the introduction of horn section in 1971, etc.

Anyway, I salute all those adjustments in their sound they did back then. In hindsight it is fascinating to follow their constant reinvention in their live sound from tour to tour. Even though some fans nowadays seem to think that some things (Preston, Taylor, horns) went 'too far' or something, I think totally the opposite. I see just there a living and breathing band on the creative run, never trying to repeat the old but always trying to find new ways of self-description. Actually I don't think there is any ideal of The Rolling Stones sound from 1963 to 1982 (as a live band), but just variations of the theme. They sound like a living organ. I don't think either that the band ever thought by themselves 'oh shit, now we have turned shit, we need to get back to the good'. No, I think it was more like 'yeah, that was great. But now we have to do something else'. They had so much creative energy back then, that staying loyal to some 'ideal' would have been non-thinkable and damn boring.. They need to keep moving...

So to my eyes, having Billy Preston strongly at presence, and like Ollie Brown on percussion, was an essential part of the Stones sound 1975/76 and it is for me as genuine Stones sound as it ever has been. The more Billy took room, the more peculiar and fascinating and justified that incarnation of the band was - and more I love that chapter of the book! I have never been a fan of any 'purity'... (that's why I guess I like the Stones so much)

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-25 10:42 by Doxa.

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Doxa
Some interesting thoughts here about mid-70's Rolling Stones and especially about Billy Preston.

It seems all of us seem to have some sort of ideal how the Stones should sound like, and at times they seem to drift too from that ideal. For some people that seems to Billy Preston's influence during the mid-70's (the tours 1975 and 1976 particularly), he taking too much freedoms, or escaping from his 'side man' role. Like for some people Taylor "over-played" in 1973, or, if you like, the introduction of horn section in 1971, etc.

Anyway, I salute all those adjustments in their sound they did back then. In hindsight it is fascinating to follow their constant reinvention in their live sound from tour to tour. Even though some fans nowadays seem to think that some things (Preston, Taylor, horns) went 'too far' or something, I think totally the opposite. I see just there a living and breathing band on the creative run, never trying to repeat the old but always trying to find new ways of self-description. Actually I don't think there is any ideal of The Rolling Stones sound from 1963 to 1982 (as a live band), but just variations of the theme. They sound like a living organ. I don't think either that the band ever thought by themselves 'oh shit, now we have turned shit, we need to get back to the good'. No, I think it was more like 'yeah, that was great. But now we have to do something else'. They had so much creative energy back then, that staying loyal to some 'ideal' would have been non-thinkable and damn boring.. They need to keep moving...

So to my eyes, having Billy Preston strongly at presence, and like Ollie Brown on percussion, was an essential part of the Stones sound 1975/76 and it is for me as genuine Stones sound as it ever has been. The more Billy took room, the more peculiar and fascinating and justified that incarnation of the band was - and more I love that chapter of the book! I have never been a fan of any 'purity'... (that's why I guess I like the Stones so much)

- Doxa

You, sir, are a true Stones fan. I tip my hat to you.

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Doxa
I think it was more like 'yeah, that was great. But now we have to do something else'. They had so much creative energy back then, that staying loyal to some 'ideal' would have been non-thinkable and damn boring.. They need to keep moving...

I think that's a good observation, and to some extent I think this has been the case
untill the moment Mick came to the conclusion that some of his movements were a bit
too far astray for the band (and its fans) to follow.
Undercover was perhaps the last album when they really did something else, as a band.
After that the "something else" was mostly done in collaboration with other musicians.

Lucky as we are, there are still some samples on later albums when something new is heard.
Continental drift, Sweethearts together, New Faces, Thru and Thru. But these experiments
on Stones albums grow a bit thin, as the members of the band have found other ways
to vent their creativity.

Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away

If anyone got the impression I don't appreciate what Billy added to the Stones, I'll say that is wrong, very wrong.

Out of all his contributions, the only things I don't like are the synths on MR and BS + the nursery rhyme-stuff on GOOMC.

I love the combo of Billy and Ollie. They gave the Stones a fresh sound. Even Preston's mini-set was great.

One of my favourite bootlegs is Hold On Tight (NYC 1975), in fact it was one of my first bootlegs. Billy's playing is phenomenal on this show.

Billy was pretty dominating on certain songs in 1973, too (Angie, Heartbreaker and 100 years Ago early in the tour). I also have this treasure, which is really great:

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Turner68



You, sir, are a true Stones fan. I tip my hat to you.

Oh no, I'm not. There are way, way 'truer' and 'loyal' Stones fans on this board (and I can give the whole term 'fan' to their use, since what the hell I do with that?) I don't much appreciate the safe and sure entertainment nostalgia version of the band they've been now for about half of their existence. But gimme those first two decades... Let's say what I've learned from them in those decades, didn't prepare me to face what became a norm since, say, 1989 or 1994. I've struggling with them ever since...

- Doxa, an IORRian 'whiner'

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DandelionPowderman


Out of all his contributions, the only things I don't like are the synths on MR and BS + the nursery rhyme-stuff on GOOMC.

What's the wrong with those? I always find them refreshing and unique when I happen to listen that era. Is there some sort of 'this is holy guitar territory' rule in "Midnight Rambler" that Preston shamelessly breaks with his unorthodoxical instrument? I personally like that kind of 'intervention'. The same with "Cloud" - it is an unique, updated interpretation of the old song, and I think Billy's contribution fits damn well there - it is a big part why the version is so fascinating and stands in its own foot in compared to the original.

- Doxa

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman


Out of all his contributions, the only things I don't like are the synths on MR and BS + the nursery rhyme-stuff on GOOMC.

What's the wrong with those? I always find them refreshing and unique when I happen to listen that era. Is there some sort of 'this is holy guitar territory' rule in "Midnight Rambler" that Preston shamelessly breaks with his unorthodoxical instrument? I personally like that kind of 'intervention'. The same with "Cloud" - it is an unique, updated interpretation of the old song, and I think Billy's contribution fits damn well there - it is a big part why the version is so fascinating and stands in its own foot in compared to the original.

- Doxa

Well, the synth on MR is horrendous, absolutely horrendous. It sounds like an uninspired piss-take, imo. Same with BS.

He did lots of other stuff with the synths that worked nicely, imo, like on GS.

If it clashes with the mood of the song for me, I'm not gonna like it just because it's untraditional

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DandelionPowderman

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman


Out of all his contributions, the only things I don't like are the synths on MR and BS + the nursery rhyme-stuff on GOOMC.

What's the wrong with those? I always find them refreshing and unique when I happen to listen that era. Is there some sort of 'this is holy guitar territory' rule in "Midnight Rambler" that Preston shamelessly breaks with his unorthodoxical instrument? I personally like that kind of 'intervention'. The same with "Cloud" - it is an unique, updated interpretation of the old song, and I think Billy's contribution fits damn well there - it is a big part why the version is so fascinating and stands in its own foot in compared to the original.

- Doxa

Well, the synth on MR is horrendous, absolutely horrendous. It sounds like an uninspired piss-take, imo. Same with BS.

He did lots of other stuff with the synths that worked nicely, imo, like on GS.

If it clashes with the mood of the song for me, I'm not gonna like it just because it's untraditional

Yeah, tastes differ... I find it fitting surprisingly well in that reading of "Rambler", and also to the decadent, even deconstructive mood the Stones generally treated their numbers (some of them being much played, war horse-like, by then) during that tour. Part of it is probably just adding some gimmicks to the obvious, but I tend to think that's the method the Stones used to fresh up their playing and keep them interested. Not just drugs...

- Doxa

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman


Out of all his contributions, the only things I don't like are the synths on MR and BS + the nursery rhyme-stuff on GOOMC.

What's the wrong with those? I always find them refreshing and unique when I happen to listen that era. Is there some sort of 'this is holy guitar territory' rule in "Midnight Rambler" that Preston shamelessly breaks with his unorthodoxical instrument? I personally like that kind of 'intervention'. The same with "Cloud" - it is an unique, updated interpretation of the old song, and I think Billy's contribution fits damn well there - it is a big part why the version is so fascinating and stands in its own foot in compared to the original.

- Doxa

Well, the synth on MR is horrendous, absolutely horrendous. It sounds like an uninspired piss-take, imo. Same with BS.

He did lots of other stuff with the synths that worked nicely, imo, like on GS.

If it clashes with the mood of the song for me, I'm not gonna like it just because it's untraditional

Yeah, tastes differ... I find it fitting surprisingly well in that reading of "Rambler", and also to the decadent, even deconstructive mood the Stones generally treated their numbers (some of them being much played, war horse-like, by then) during that tour. Part of it is probably just adding some gimmicks to the obvious, but I tend to think that's the method the Stones used to fresh up their playing and keep them interested. Not just drugs...

- Doxa

You sure it's not the clavinet you thought was fitting, and not the synth?

Listen to this...

[www.youtube.com]

I absolutely adore Black & Blue. Every single second of it. Even the faux cod reggae of Cherry Oh Baby. Yes Sirree, even that one.

It's a one off, a fantastic quickly passing Stones' moment captured in time and oh, how it was captured. Listen to that sound, it's clean and beautiful, with a fantastic depth and richness which is perfect for the grooves being created by the band at this time.

Quite a few Stones' albums have suffered from woeful production, muddy mixes, an over-clattering of sound....confusion, lack of clarity.

But on Black & Blue the music breathes and you can perfectly hear all the instruments in the mix. I love that - every musician can be heard.

The album, of course, swings like no other Stones' record. With a title like Black & Blue you'd really expect it to, wouldn't you!

So apart from it being one of the Stones' two best recorded albums - the other for me is Let It Bleed - the music just puts a smile on your face and a rhythm in your ass.

And as funky as the album is, let's not forget that Black & Blue also contains one of Mick'n'Keith's greatest rockers in Hand Of Fate and the throwaway Stones by numbers raunch of Crazy Mama.

Black & Blue was created in the maelstrom of Keith's heroin addiction, the uncertainty of new boy Ronnie Wood and Mick's collapsing marriage to Bianca. There were also sounds starting to get wider exposure - the bold funky rock of Little Feat, the beginning of disco, the Meters who were probably the tightest band on the planet at this point.

All this fabulous music cooked up in a wonderful gumbo that just warmed the soul. Too bad they never made another album like it.

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Silver Dagger
I absolutely adore Black & Blue. Every single second of it. Even the faux cod reggae of Cherry Oh Baby. Yes Sirree, even that one.

It's a one off, a fantastic quickly passing Stones' moment captured in time and oh, how it was captured. Listen to that sound, it's clean and beautiful, with a fantastic depth and richness which is perfect for the grooves being created by the band at this time.

Quite a few Stones' albums have suffered from woeful production, muddy mixes, an over-clattering of sound....confusion, lack of clarity.

But on Black & Blue the music breathes and you can perfectly hear all the instruments in the mix. I love that - every musician can be heard.

The album, of course, swings like no other Stones' record. With a title like Black & Blue you'd really expect it to, wouldn't you!

So apart from it being one of the Stones' two best recorded albums - the other for me is Let It Bleed - the music just puts a smile on your face and a rhythm in your ass.

And as funky as the album is, let's not forget that Black & Blue also contains one of Mick'n'Keith's greatest rockers in Hand Of Fate and the throwaway Stones by numbers raunch of Crazy Mama.

Black & Blue was created in the maelstrom of Keith's heroin addiction, the uncertainty of new boy Ronnie Wood and Mick's collapsing marriage to Bianca. There were also sounds starting to get wider exposure - the bold funky rock of Little Feat, the beginning of disco, the Meters who were probably the tightest band on the planet at this point.

All this fabulous music cooked up in a wonderful gumbo that just warmed the soul. Too bad they never made another album like it.

Lovely post!

The closest they came later on might have been ER.

Ronnie Wood brought back the swing to the Stones. It's so evident, imo. Although the more melancholic searching tunes, beautiful as they were, seemed to get rarer...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-25 15:10 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman

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Silver Dagger
I absolutely adore Black & Blue. Every single second of it. Even the faux cod reggae of Cherry Oh Baby. Yes Sirree, even that one.

It's a one off, a fantastic quickly passing Stones' moment captured in time and oh, how it was captured. Listen to that sound, it's clean and beautiful, with a fantastic depth and richness which is perfect for the grooves being created by the band at this time.

Quite a few Stones' albums have suffered from woeful production, muddy mixes, an over-clattering of sound....confusion, lack of clarity.

But on Black & Blue the music breathes and you can perfectly hear all the instruments in the mix. I love that - every musician can be heard.

The album, of course, swings like no other Stones' record. With a title like Black & Blue you'd really expect it to, wouldn't you!

So apart from it being one of the Stones' two best recorded albums - the other for me is Let It Bleed - the music just puts a smile on your face and a rhythm in your ass.

And as funky as the album is, let's not forget that Black & Blue also contains one of Mick'n'Keith's greatest rockers in Hand Of Fate and the throwaway Stones by numbers raunch of Crazy Mama.

Black & Blue was created in the maelstrom of Keith's heroin addiction, the uncertainty of new boy Ronnie Wood and Mick's collapsing marriage to Bianca. There were also sounds starting to get wider exposure - the bold funky rock of Little Feat, the beginning of disco, the Meters who were probably the tightest band on the planet at this point.

All this fabulous music cooked up in a wonderful gumbo that just warmed the soul. Too bad they never made another album like it.

Lovely post!

The closest they came later on might have been ER.

Ronnie Wood brought back the swing to the Stones. It's so evident, imo. Although the more melancholic searching tunes, beautiful as they were, seemed to get rarer...

The thing with Black & Blue is that it sounded so effortless. Can you imagine any other of the big league bands making an album as funky as this? Zeppelin, The Who, Wings, Clapton, Rod - never in a million years. It just showed what an amazingly versatile band the Stones were.

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Silver Dagger

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DandelionPowderman

Quote
Silver Dagger
I absolutely adore Black & Blue. Every single second of it. Even the faux cod reggae of Cherry Oh Baby. Yes Sirree, even that one.

It's a one off, a fantastic quickly passing Stones' moment captured in time and oh, how it was captured. Listen to that sound, it's clean and beautiful, with a fantastic depth and richness which is perfect for the grooves being created by the band at this time.

Quite a few Stones' albums have suffered from woeful production, muddy mixes, an over-clattering of sound....confusion, lack of clarity.

But on Black & Blue the music breathes and you can perfectly hear all the instruments in the mix. I love that - every musician can be heard.

The album, of course, swings like no other Stones' record. With a title like Black & Blue you'd really expect it to, wouldn't you!

So apart from it being one of the Stones' two best recorded albums - the other for me is Let It Bleed - the music just puts a smile on your face and a rhythm in your ass.

And as funky as the album is, let's not forget that Black & Blue also contains one of Mick'n'Keith's greatest rockers in Hand Of Fate and the throwaway Stones by numbers raunch of Crazy Mama.

Black & Blue was created in the maelstrom of Keith's heroin addiction, the uncertainty of new boy Ronnie Wood and Mick's collapsing marriage to Bianca. There were also sounds starting to get wider exposure - the bold funky rock of Little Feat, the beginning of disco, the Meters who were probably the tightest band on the planet at this point.

All this fabulous music cooked up in a wonderful gumbo that just warmed the soul. Too bad they never made another album like it.

Lovely post!

The closest they came later on might have been ER.

Ronnie Wood brought back the swing to the Stones. It's so evident, imo. Although the more melancholic searching tunes, beautiful as they were, seemed to get rarer...

The thing with Black & Blue is that it sounded so effortless. Can you imagine any other of the big league bands making an album as funky as this? Zeppelin, The Who, Wings, Clapton, Rod - never in a million years. It just showed what an amazingly versatile band the Stones were.

Absolutely! Led Zep tried some funk and reggae now and again, but the result was stiff and halting, imo

BTW, I lived less than 10 km away from De Doelen in Rotterdam at the time they recorded
this album over there.

But.... I'd never even heard of The Rolling Stones by that time, being just a seven
year old schoolboy, killing his time riding his bike across the street, cutting himself
to see his blood, coming home all covered in mud.

Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away

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Naturalust
Reggae is a predecessor to rap? That's a bit of a stretch, imo. Early Hip Hop drew from the R&B, Soul and motown stuff a bit but I never really heard any correlation with reggae music. In America it seemed to me that reggae was not particularly popular with the hip hop and rap crowd. I guess both genres were based on rhythm more than melodic structure, maybe that's what you are referring to.

Well, he didn't say that. He was clear about it, which was "This aspect of reggae, which I think sometimes is seen as a predecessor to rap, is"... in other words, Witness has read or heard that somewhere. That's my understanding of it. Whether it's from the NYTimes or a neighbour down the street, it's probably been considered in some conversation or debate or argument somewhere based on whatever someone heard.

Of course, historically and factually, it's not true specifically but rap does come from a similar latitude and region that was brought to Brooklyn and evolved from there.

I was 16 when i got this album for my birthday !! really loved it, and still do,40 years later !!!

One of my favorites. Hot stuff,memory motel,hey negrita, hand of fate,fool to cry.
Great songs. 1976 was the year of my first stones concert in The hague, holland.

Yeah black nBlue is in my top 8 of stones albums.

jeroen

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman


Out of all his contributions, the only things I don't like are the synths on MR and BS + the nursery rhyme-stuff on GOOMC.

What's the wrong with those? I always find them refreshing and unique when I happen to listen that era. Is there some sort of 'this is holy guitar territory' rule in "Midnight Rambler" that Preston shamelessly breaks with his unorthodoxical instrument? I personally like that kind of 'intervention'. The same with "Cloud" - it is an unique, updated interpretation of the old song, and I think Billy's contribution fits damn well there - it is a big part why the version is so fascinating and stands in its own foot in compared to the original.

- Doxa

Thank you Doxa! You get it. (No offense Dandie).