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Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Posted by: TravelinMan ()
Date: March 18, 2020 18:44

Quote
Deltics
Quote
TravelinMan
Quote
JordyLicks96
I'm also not understanding how "Dead Flowers" is recycled. It was first worked on at the end of '69. The same time "Brown Sugar, Wild Horses, and "You Gotta Move" were recorded. There are a handful of "recycled" Stones songs over the years. Where the problem lies is what I'm having trouble figuring out.

When and where was Dead Flowers first recorded? I always assumed sometime in 1970 at Olympic.

I just realized they first started playing it out on the 1970 tour of Europe. I always assumed it was first performed in 1971 during the British tour. It's one of those songs that has a definite studio vs stage version. The studio version is country western, while the live version is much more southern rock. I wrote a short paper on that in grad school, actually. smileys with beer

From Zentgraf:

691209A 9th, 10th & 18th December: London, Olympic Sound Studios. Producer: Jimmy Miller.
Sound engineer: Glyn Johns.
- Dead Flowers I (MJ/KR) -alternate take; Sticky Fingers Deluxe-version (sounds
more like a tour-rehearsals, might also come from August 1970 or March 1971)
- Dead Flowers II (MJ/KR) -STU on piano; "little Lucy"-version

700424A 24th April: London, Olympic Sound Studios. Producer: Jimmy Miller. Sound
engineers: Glyn Johns, Andy Johns & Chris Kimsey. Final mixing.
- Dead Flowers III (MJ/KR) -STU on piano; Sticky Fingers-version

[www.nzentgraf.de]

Thanks. I agree, the version from the SF outtakes sounds like a Marquee rehearsal.

Wish they released some Wild Horses rehearsals. I read where Richards said they rehearsed it a ton of different ways to try and get it stage ready, but never got a version down until 1975. A live/rehearsal version of Wild Horses with Richards and Taylor is my White Whale.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Posted by: TravelinMan ()
Date: March 19, 2020 14:56

Anybody else think the Sticky Fingers version of Dead Flowers is the 1969 version with new (1970) Keith Richards guitar parts and Jagger/Richards vocals?

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: March 19, 2020 16:02

Quote
TravelinMan
Anybody else think the Sticky Fingers version of Dead Flowers is the 1969 version with new (1970) Keith Richards guitar parts and Jagger/Richards vocals?

There are guitar parts on the LP version that are from the 1969 version, if that indeed is what this one is - and the drums are the same.




Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Posted by: TravelinMan ()
Date: March 19, 2020 17:00

Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
TravelinMan
Anybody else think the Sticky Fingers version of Dead Flowers is the 1969 version with new (1970) Keith Richards guitar parts and Jagger/Richards vocals?

There are guitar parts on the LP version that are from the 1969 version, if that indeed is what this one is - and the drums are the same.



I believe so too. It sounds like Taylor just did one pass and nailed the solo. It seems to be spontaneous and not as “figured out” as the live version.

Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: 1963luca0 ()
Date: April 3, 2020 17:01

Hi everybody,
while looking back at all my various UK copies of "Sticky Fingers" I've noticed something I never considered before:

450196 1 'made in UK' CBS Records distribution

With 'You Gotta Move' as unique exception, ALL the other songs are credited on labels as copyrighted by Westminster Music Ltd (which acquired Essex Music - and that's alright) AND ABKCO Music Ltd.

If one literally assume this it's true, it'd mean that all the other nine songs of the album were begun before 30 July 1970, under DECCA Records' reign. That said, I've never seen these nine songs as dated pre-1970.

Just a mistake by the executive who compiled the list of copyright controllers or we'd guess that Klein and the RS's management reached some level of agreement?

Your thoughts, please? Stay safe, all the best Luca

Re: Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: April 3, 2020 17:10

That is correct.

"Sister Morphine" is an outtake from LET IT BLEED. Cut in February 1969.
"Brown Sugar," "Wild Horses," and "You Gotta Move" are from Muscle Shoals in December 1969.
First version of "Dead Flowers" was cut in December 1969 in London.
The album version along with "Bitch," "Can't You Hear Me Knocking," and "I Got the Blues" were cut in Spring 1970.
"Sway" and "Moonlight Mile" were cut on the Mobile in June 1970. Overdubs were completed October 1970 following the European tour.

All songs were written and arranged before July 1970.

Letting the album sit until the ABKCO management contract term, the Decca Records contract, and London Records contract terms ended is why they have STICKY FINGERS. Likewise releasing the album in April 1971 in a new tax period after they have gone into tax exile.

The tax exile that gives us EXILE ON MAIN STREET. Keith having called the French Riviera "Main Street."

If you skip the CBS discs and get the original Atlantic LP and cassette from either the US or UK, you'll notice the lapping tongue logo is matched with matrix numbers starting with the rude prefixes COC, CUN, or CS all being descriptors for the lapping tongue. These tie into the "CS Blues" rejected single for Decca from the same era.

This, however, is purely esoteric.

Re: Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: 1963luca0 ()
Date: April 3, 2020 17:30

Thanks.
The point is: all original UK albums have the nine songs protected by Essex and Essex later became Westminster. ABKCO used to protect their songs by their own GIDEON Music.
How could it be that Essex owned those songs? On top of that, the UK CBS copy presents double credits (Westminster and ABKCO). Are the songs co-owned?

Moreover, if you look at CBS's 450201 1 (UK), "Angie" is protected by Westminster Music Ltd. AND ABKCO Music Ltd. Should we assume that "Angie" too was written/recorded before 30 July 1970?
That said, "Angie" on "Made In The Shade" (450201 1, CBS, UK) is under Westminster Music Ltd. alone (no more ABKCO Music Ltd.)
Unfortunaltely, the same "Made In The Shade" presents "Tumbling Dice" under Westminster Music Ltd. AND ABKCO Music ltd. Pity that the CBS's "Exile On Main St." lists Westminster Music Ltd as the only copyright controller for "Tumbling Dice"... Headache coming...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-03 17:40 by 1963luca0.

Re: Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: April 3, 2020 18:19

Sorry, I'm still not entirely clear. Are you questioning why there are multiple publishers for the songs? Usually that signifies the rights were administered by different publishers for different regions or that the publisher assigned all administrative rights to a separate publisher.

You mention ownership. The copyright in the recordings is held or owned by ABKCO Records or Promotone as an example. This is separate from the song publishing whose purpose is to ensure royalties are paid out based on sales, airplay, club play, licensing for commercials or film & television, etc.

Both publishers were listed on STICKY FINGERS because the worldwide distribution was under a single entity as opposed to Decca and related companies except for North America where it was London Records with publishers reflected on labels based on region.

As for "Angie," I've never seen a definitive answer, just speculation on the publishing issue. There was certainly no song called "Angie" with lyrics prior to 1972, but it is possible the melody existed prior to 1970 and so publishing rights were split to avoid potential claims of infringement. This is just speculation.

Apologies if this is not what you are asking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-03 18:24 by Rocky Dijon.

Re: Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: April 3, 2020 19:35

Hello Luca. Hope you are keeping safe in your lovely homeland.

A few comments:
The Stones first Song Publishing contract was I believe for 12 months only and as a result group and then Mick and Keith compositions were assigned to Southern Music, a well established but somewhat 'conservative'Publisher. The contracts were initiated by Eric Easton. Southern is now owned by Peer Music.
By mid 1964 Easton was in the process of being eased out of the Management team, so Oldham took the opportunity to arrange the renewal of the Publishing deal. This is documented in his excellent Stoned books. Oldham signed up with the Essex Group whose MD was David Platz. It was probably a good move; Essex were certainly a dynamic and forward looking company, at the time. It seems Oldham had a share in the Publishing, both in terms of ownership and royalties.
Of course this situation changed as Klein eventually bought out Oldham's interests and it seems as though over time Essex relinquished their role (essentially as Administrator) at some point, hence ABKCO becoming the sole Publisher, world wide.
I've never quite understood where Westminster (a part of the Exxex group?)fit in to the picture. I would have thought Exxex was by far the bigger concern but of course as we all know companies change names/ create subsidiaries for all sorts of reasons. Also not sure why Westminster hold the rights to these particular titles.
Record companies do of course make mistakes when it comes to the accuracy of credits etc...these may then be rectified on subsequent re releases. The Stones product is no exception. Just poor Quality Control...or ongoing disputes re various parties!

Re: Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: kovach ()
Date: April 3, 2020 21:08

Many of you probably know this, but I learned this when I visited the Muscle Shoals studio.

They were on tour and didn't have a visa to record. Somebody had the bright idea of taking them to a location that wasn't real particular on such matters for 1 day to record 1 song. And of course they stayed a few days and recorded ~1/3rd of the album there.

All of which is why original copies of Sticky Fingers makes no mention of Muscle Shoals.

Re: Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: 1963luca0 ()
Date: April 3, 2020 23:26

Essex Music was renamed Westminster Music Ltd. on 31 December 1981.
This is the reason why, since 1 January 1982, all the old J/R passed to Westminster Music Ltd (see old songs on 'Still Life', as a start).

This said, I believe that "Angie" has never been copyrighted by ABKCO Music Ltd, actually. I guess that he who listed the controllers for the CBS' "Goat's Head Soup" made a mistake, as confirmed by CBS' "Made In The Shade". Errors happen.

At the moment, I'm compiling the list of changes in copyright controllers 1971-present for my next discography book (UK RSR albums) and it's quite interesting.

All the songs credited J/R/Wood got an additional copyrighter, when the group moved to CBS. For reasons I can't understand, CBS Records aquired the rights to distribute the records, but did not buy the band's catalogue that remained to EMI Publishing Ltd. At this point, EMI-Colgems enters the picture for the J/R/Wood songs only. Maybe RW has an own exclusive with EMI-Colgems for his song-writing? I don't know, actually. What's for sure is that CBS' credits to ABKCO Music nine songs that the original "Sticky Fingers" presents as controlled by Essex Music and this seems to be not completely wrong if you consider that the "Brown Sugar" 7" from "Rewind" is credited to Westminster Music. (For complete list of controllers of all the British singles and related changes through the years, please have a look at my book).

Lockdown is not funny here, but all the persons I love are safe and well and I have unexpected time to spend with my beloved records: in a couple of years the new (and last) book might be ready. All the best you all, stay safe, Luca



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-03 23:29 by 1963luca0.

Re: Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: April 4, 2020 00:01

It's not ununsual for records to have a different Distributor to that of Song Publisher. In fact it's probably a good idea.
The Stones business arrangements by the late 60's were:
- Management: Allen Klein/ABKCO
- Record Company : ABCKO (recording masters)
- Song Publishing: ABKCO Publishing (copyrights).

An 18 year old Business Studies student straightaway would say 'conflict of interest'...not a good idea.

What surprises me is that at some point the group's Publishing went to EMI. Always regarded as a very staid company. Must have been financial and their worldwide network.

Re: Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: JordyLicks96 ()
Date: April 4, 2020 00:08

So in simplest terms, ABKCO has publishing rights to every song on STICKY FINGERS, minus "You Gotta Move?" So that's why "Bitch" and "Sway" were included on the SINGLES 1968-1971 box set released by ABKCO in 2005.

Also, Allen Klein sued the Stones after the release of EXILE for breach of settlement because five songs on the album were composed while they were still under contract with ABKCO:

Sweet Virginia
Loving Cup
All Down the Line
Shine a Light
Stop Breaking Down (written by Robert Johnson but re-interpreted by Jagger/Richards)

In acquiring publishing rights to the songs, giving it a share of the royalties from EXILE, ABKCO was able to release another album of Rolling Stones songs, MORE HOT ROCKS (BIG HITS & FAZED COOKIES).

Re: Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: April 4, 2020 00:20

Well, according to Wiki, Sway was recorded in March 1970 (still under contract to ABCKO). Bitch was recorded October 1970 (post ABCKO).
I guess it's the (song)registration date that's the key.

Re: Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: 1963luca0 ()
Date: April 4, 2020 00:33

Technically speaking, I've made a mistake, sorry.
To tell the truth, the nine songs of "Sticky Fingers" were originally copyrighted by Mirage Music and it had a partnership with Essex. Still, the subject of my questions is still valid.

Mirage Music was founded by The Rolling Stones and Andrew Loog Oldham. When they parted ways, the company was not closed down and the Rolling Stones continued to use it until 1971. No need to say, ALO's shares must have been bought by the five Rolling Stones and the four Rolling Stones must have bought Brian Jones' shares, when he died. If not so, a sort of agreement must have been signed with the Brian Jones' estate, as I believe he did not get any money from 'Honky Tonk Women' on.
Mirage Music was not strong enough to supervise the collection of the earned income and, above all, did not act on its own being controlled by Klein's Gideon that he established to manage the Rolling Stones' earnings. By its side, Gideon was not big enough to operate worldwide. As a consequence, Gideon operated in the USA and Klein contracted Essex Music Ltd. to operate elsewhere.
With the original copies of 'Exile On Main St.' we learn that Mirage Music is not operating anymore and Essex Music Ltd. is the only credited controller. Musidor NV is coming and Promotion BV will appear, in 1973. I can't tell what these two companies are for, actually. What is known for sure is that Essex Music will continue to copyright the RS till "Black And Blue". With "Love You Live", something unclear happens: some recent J/R songs ar now controlled by EMI Publ. Ltd. even if the group is still under the old contract. With "Some Girls" the controller iS EMI Publ. Ltd and it'll remain also after they move to CBS.

Re: Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: April 4, 2020 00:48

Dont forget Mirage was for Mick and Keith composition Royalties; Nanker Phelge UK was for the small number of Group compositions....only here would Brian and his Estate receive income.
Record royalties were a seperate matter.
Again, Oldham's book refers to the formation of the two companies.
I checked UK Companies House some years ago: both companies were dissolved in 1993.
I suspect that it is no coincidence that this occurred soon after Bill left the group which then required a bit of 'tidying up ' regarding their joint business affairs,
At least The Stones never went through the Apple debacle or them suing each other (Paul v the others).
Musidor and Promotone were formed around 1972. They are Netherlands based and look after the groups 'brand' recordings / copyrights.

Re: Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: JordyLicks96 ()
Date: April 4, 2020 00:51

Quote
Rocky Dijon
That is correct.

"Sister Morphine" is an outtake from LET IT BLEED. Cut in February 1969.
"Brown Sugar," "Wild Horses," and "You Gotta Move" are from Muscle Shoals in December 1969.
First version of "Dead Flowers" was cut in December 1969 in London.
The album version along with "Bitch," "Can't You Hear Me Knocking," and "I Got the Blues" were cut in Spring 1970.
"Sway" and "Moonlight Mile" were cut on the Mobile in June 1970. Overdubs were completed October 1970 following the European tour.

All songs were written and arranged before July 1970.

Letting the album sit until the ABKCO management contract term, the Decca Records contract, and London Records contract terms ended is why they have STICKY FINGERS. Likewise releasing the album in April 1971 in a new tax period after they have gone into tax exile.

The tax exile that gives us EXILE ON MAIN STREET. Keith having called the French Riviera "Main Street."

If you skip the CBS discs and get the original Atlantic LP and cassette from either the US or UK, you'll notice the lapping tongue logo is matched with matrix numbers starting with the rude prefixes COC, CUN, or CS all being descriptors for the lapping tongue. These tie into the "CS Blues" rejected single for Decca from the same era.

This, however, is purely esoteric.

I thought Moonlight Mile was written, the music and the lyrics, during and after the European Tour in 1970. My point being nothing about the song existed until after they left Decca on July 30, 1970.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-04 00:52 by JordyLicks96.

Re: Sticky Fingers copyright control
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: April 4, 2020 03:58

You Got To Move was not composed by the Stones although I think they claimed authorship for a while anyway

jb

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: April 23, 2021 13:30

23-Apr-2021: Happy 50th Anniversary, Sticky Fingers! - [Twitter.com] - #StickyFingers50 .

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: April 23, 2021 14:04

Quote
Irix
23-Apr-2021: Happy 50th Anniversary, Sticky Fingers! - [Twitter.com] - #StickyFingers50 .

Haha, they are using "Wild Horses" from Knebworth... The Stalingrad of 1976 when the big but old and tired, wounded Stones troops were beaten by a small but fresh Lynyrd Skynyrd army big time, confirmed by an innocent eye-witness, plus the first-mentioned army did so awful performance that is no worth of any document or release ever.... If we are to believe the latest raports from the war commentators of IORR...grinning smiley

But gladly it was a question of one battle - the Stones not losing a war...

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-04-23 14:06 by Doxa.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Date: April 23, 2021 14:16

The only other Wild Horses-video they have released officially is LA Forum. No wonder they chose the Knebworth clip smiling smiley

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: April 23, 2021 14:22

Quote
DandelionPowderman
The only other Wild Horses-video they have released officially is LA Forum. No wonder they chose the Knebworth clip smiling smiley

You mean from those days you when they still looked relatively young and sexy...

- Doxa

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Date: April 23, 2021 14:48

Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman
The only other Wild Horses-video they have released officially is LA Forum. No wonder they chose the Knebworth clip smiling smiley

You mean from those days you when they still looked relatively young and sexy...

- Doxa

Sorry, I meant in the 70s (not in THEIR 70s) grinning smiley

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: April 23, 2021 15:14

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman
The only other Wild Horses-video they have released officially is LA Forum. No wonder they chose the Knebworth clip smiling smiley

You mean from those days you when they still looked relatively young and sexy...

- Doxa

Sorry, I meant in the 70s (not in THEIR 70s) grinning smiley

Was it that before the Cohlian era they only played the song live during 1975/6 run?

Anyway, I always have liked the raw, ragged electric guitar versions of 75/76 with Jagger's badass vocals and these two backing up him with their angelic voices... "sad, sad, sad song..."

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-04-23 15:16 by Doxa.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Posted by: rollmops ()
Date: April 23, 2021 20:01

The live acoustic version of WH they did in 94-95 in a Japanese studio is one the best.
Rockandroll,
Mops

[youtu.be]

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Date: April 23, 2021 22:27

Quote
rollmops
The live acoustic version of WH they did in 94-95 in a Japanese studio is one the best.
Rockandroll,
Mops

[youtu.be]

It's fantastic indeed thumbs up

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Posted by: rollmops ()
Date: April 23, 2021 22:37

I remember when I saw for the first time the videos of the Stripped recordings from Japan.I was blown away by how Good that session was. The playing is very very good; on acoustic you can't fvck up. It has to be precise and somewhat delicate. Beautiful work by the stones. Sorry for the digression from subject.
Rockandroll,
Mops

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Posted by: WillInUK ()
Date: April 23, 2021 23:05

Why are Townshend and Lane and Nicholas listed as musicians? What did they do.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Date: April 24, 2021 11:28

Quote
WillInUK
Why are Townshend and Lane and Nicholas listed as musicians? What did they do.

Sway line-up:

Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Rhythm electric guitar: Mick Jagger
Lead electric guitar: Mick Taylor
Lead vocal: Mick Jagger
Background vocals: Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, Pete Townshend, Ronnie Lane & Billy Nicholls
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Strings: (unknown musicians)

According to Timeisonourside.com

Re: ALBUM TALK: Sticky Fingers
Posted by: schillid ()
Date: April 24, 2021 16:59






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