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Doxa
The issue of Bill's possible invention of "Jumping Jack Flash" riff has been discussed rather thoroughly here in the past. Since I haven't heard any new 'facts' been pupped up, and I have nothing to add into what I've already said, let me just remind two claims by Bill by which he kind of supports his initial claim, I recall discussed earlier, and not mentioned in this thread yet.
Firstly, Bill says that he has some sort of document in which Keith admits that Bill came up with the riff.
Secondly, Bill says that he would have been given the credition for "Flash" had he not left the band (or if he had returned; can't recall the context any longer).
The problem with the former is that we don't have that document - for example, our missed, great contributor His Majesty has (had?) a great collection of old British magazines, papers, etc. and no such a Keith quote is to be found.
But remember, we used to have a great debate concerning the invention of another iconic riff - that of "The Last Time". Even though Brian played it, many people were suspicious if Brian had been the one not just playing it, but also that of creating it. The arguments in favor of Keith resembled back then quite much the current ones for "Flash". However, above mentioned His Majesty discovered an old paper from the 60's, in which Keith straight-forwardly says that Brian created the whole thing. Even though it was 'just' a few words by Richards in a written form, that seemingly was reliable enough to convince 'anyone'.
What goes for the plausibility of the second claim by Wyman: if it really is true, even then it wouldn't straight-forwardy made the initial claim true. Namely, one could counter-argue that The Stones could have made whatever sacrifices (within a reason) to keep the guy in band/to bring him back back then. If it would have cost them the third of the credition of one of their biggest hits, well, that's the price...
Even though there seems - or ought - to be a kind of consensus here now that 'we' should not pay much attention to Bill's claim, I think that kind of 'agreement' or 'conclusion' need to derive from the belief that Bill Wyman is just not misremembering, perceiving differently, but cold-heartidly and systematically lying. That is a bit too harsh for me. I think this still very much is an open case (that is: until there is a stronger 'proof', I can't be sure about it, but at the moment I tend to think that Bill Wyman was the man who came up with the riff; the way I interpret current data I am familiar with is favoring him).
(A side remark: I don't think that we really have much use for the mentioned distinction between "providing info" and "making things up", since there simply aren't so many "hard facts" concerning song-writing and other creative processes. Whether we are awere of that or not, we do a lot of guesses, and our views have so so many presuppostions, firm beliefs and idiosoncratic conceptions, which dictate our observation and interpretation of 'facts'. If we want to have a some kind of coherent picture of all of that we need to consult our imagination (or reason, if you like). For that we need - as we actually do - to use all there is - recorded documents, pictures, people's words, own ears, our pre-knowledge, etc - but in the end it is just an educated guess, at best. If we really would just "stick to the facts", we would know and understand next to nothing.)
In the end, the riff in question, no matter how catchy and famous it is (especially thanks to the way Keith plays it with the guitar), musically (without the context of the song or iconic guitar 'interpretation') it is just a simple, a few notes thing almost anyone could might have occasionally come up with, if had fooled a bit with "Satisfaction" kind of scheme in mind. I mean, if we forget the 'guitar interpretation' - how it is played with the guitar - (which we don't do, because we think the whole thing basically as a guitar riff), and just consider its core musical skeleton one could play with any instrument... composing that is not exactly the biggest musical achievement in the world, for which one needs to be a musical genious... (Sorry, Bill!)
- Doxa
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triceratopsQuote
SweetThingQuote
DandelionPowderman
Bill wanted to fire Mick.
Jagger was upset he couldn't fire Keith... according to Mick Taylor.
Someone wanted to fire Ronnie in the 80s - but I don't recall where that really originated = though the 2nd part of that claim was the dreadful notion of replacing him (temporarily?) with George Thorogood.
Mick fired them all when he did his solo album and went on to tour Japan and Australia. Here are two setlists from that tour. Heavy on Stones tunes....Because like I said, he sacked all their worthless, drunk, druggy asses!!!! And brought in some real pros. Steve Morse would have been stellar lead guitar on that tour. Can you imagine! With Joe Satriani!
880322A 22nd March: MICK JAGGER. Tokyo, Japan, Tokyo Dome/Kurakuen Stadium
(Honky Tonk Women/Throwaway/Bitch/Let’s Spend The Night Together/
Beast Of Burden/Tumbling Dice/Miss You/Ruby Tuesday/Just Another
Night/War Baby/Harlem Shuffle/Say You Will/Party Doll/Band
introduction/You Can’t Always Get What You Want/Radio Control/
Gimme Shelter/Start Me Up/Brown Sugar/It’s Only Rock’n Roll/Jumping
Jack Flash/Sympathy For The Devil/Satisfaction)
880927C 27th September: MICK JAGGER. Sydney, Australia, Entertainment Center
(Throwaway/Just Another Night/Lonely At The Top/Honky Tonk
Women/Miss You/Tumbling Dice/Radio Control/Ruby Tuesday/Can’t
You Hear Me Knocking/Harlem Shuffle/Lucky In Love/Primitive
Cool/War Baby/You Can’t Always Get What You Want/Band
introduction/One Hit/Foxy Lady/Party Doll/Wild Colonial Boy/
Bitch/Rip This Joint/Gimme Shelter/Start Me Up/It’s Only Rock’n
Roll/Jumping Jack Flash/Sympathy For The Devil/Satisfaction)
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RedhotcarpetQuote
Doxa
The issue of Bill's possible invention of "Jumping Jack Flash" riff has been discussed rather thoroughly here in the past. Since I haven't heard any new 'facts' been pupped up, and I have nothing to add into what I've already said, let me just remind two claims by Bill by which he kind of supports his initial claim, I recall discussed earlier, and not mentioned in this thread yet.
Firstly, Bill says that he has some sort of document in which Keith admits that Bill came up with the riff.
Secondly, Bill says that he would have been given the credition for "Flash" had he not left the band (or if he had returned; can't recall the context any longer).
The problem with the former is that we don't have that document - for example, our missed, great contributor His Majesty has (had?) a great collection of old British magazines, papers, etc. and no such a Keith quote is to be found.
But remember, we used to have a great debate concerning the invention of another iconic riff - that of "The Last Time". Even though Brian played it, many people were suspicious if Brian had been the one not just playing it, but also that of creating it. The arguments in favor of Keith resembled back then quite much the current ones for "Flash". However, above mentioned His Majesty discovered an old paper from the 60's, in which Keith straight-forwardly says that Brian created the whole thing. Even though it was 'just' a few words by Richards in a written form, that seemingly was reliable enough to convince 'anyone'.
What goes for the plausibility of the second claim by Wyman: if it really is true, even then it wouldn't straight-forwardy made the initial claim true. Namely, one could counter-argue that The Stones could have made whatever sacrifices (within a reason) to keep the guy in band/to bring him back back then. If it would have cost them the third of the credition of one of their biggest hits, well, that's the price...
Even though there seems - or ought - to be a kind of consensus here now that 'we' should not pay much attention to Bill's claim, I think that kind of 'agreement' or 'conclusion' need to derive from the belief that Bill Wyman is just not misremembering, perceiving differently, but cold-heartidly and systematically lying. That is a bit too harsh for me. I think this still very much is an open case (that is: until there is a stronger 'proof', I can't be sure about it, but at the moment I tend to think that Bill Wyman was the man who came up with the riff; the way I interpret current data I am familiar with is favoring him).
(A side remark: I don't think that we really have much use for the mentioned distinction between "providing info" and "making things up", since there simply aren't so many "hard facts" concerning song-writing and other creative processes. Whether we are awere of that or not, we do a lot of guesses, and our views have so so many presuppostions, firm beliefs and idiosoncratic conceptions, which dictate our observation and interpretation of 'facts'. If we want to have a some kind of coherent picture of all of that we need to consult our imagination (or reason, if you like). For that we need - as we actually do - to use all there is - recorded documents, pictures, people's words, own ears, our pre-knowledge, etc - but in the end it is just an educated guess, at best. If we really would just "stick to the facts", we would know and understand next to nothing.)
In the end, the riff in question, no matter how catchy and famous it is (especially thanks to the way Keith plays it with the guitar), musically (without the context of the song or iconic guitar 'interpretation') it is just a simple, a few notes thing almost anyone could might have occasionally come up with, if had fooled a bit with "Satisfaction" kind of scheme in mind. I mean, if we forget the 'guitar interpretation' - how it is played with the guitar - (which we don't do, because we think the whole thing basically as a guitar riff), and just consider its core musical skeleton one could play with any instrument... composing that is not exactly the biggest musical achievement in the world, for which one needs to be a musical genious... (Sorry, Bill!)
- Doxa
I can imagine Keith mumbling about giving him a credit if he stays (in 1991). Nothing to be taken seriously but a bit like when he went to see Bill before the reunion. Keith being Keith.
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Redhotcarpet
When I read Bill's book and the story of the riff I knew exactly what he meant by first being hailed for doing a great thing (in the studio) - in my case a good input in a creative process - and then, the day after or possibly the day(s) after that hear the two leaders of the group say: hey what a great thing I (they) came up with, did you hear that?
And I remember what it felt like to actually have to remind them of how it was I, not the they, who came up with whatever it was. And still they insisted they did it.
And guess what, I remained in that particular group and never said a word. I was not one of the "leaders" and they ran the "show". To me Bills story is very believable and probably touching because of his description of their attitude afterwards. If that happened I know exactly what it feels like and why you keep your distance.
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DandelionPowderman
No, it's Keith telling which notes Nicky should be playing. Blew my mind when I first heard it, as I didn't think he was that hands on.
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stonesrule
I was around the Stones quite a lot in 1969-70.
I've read most of Bill's books. I noticed a few minor
errors but essentially he is on target.
Bill likes books, enjoys reading and is one hell of a bass player.
Charlie and Bill are still friends and I would think there are gigs
where Charlie must miss Bill's playing quite a lot.
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HMS
I never missed Bill´s playing or him personally. The last Album Bill played on, Steel Wheels, is a very weak one...
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HMS
I never missed Bill´s playing or him personally. The last Album Bill played on, Steel Wheels, is a very weak one, the following albums were much better. Darryl does a good job live, technically he is without doubt the better player, so I don´t miss Bill a bit. Never did, never will.
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stonesrule
I have respected Bill Wyman's playing since the mid Sixties in live concert and on record.
Anyone else feel that way?
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stonesrule
I have respected Bill Wyman's playing since the mid Sixties in live concert and on record.
Anyone else feel that way?
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HMS
They took him rather for owning an amplifier than for his playing skills (at least I heard so).
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71Tele
I read the comments about not liking or missing Bill or Mick Taylor and I am quite astounded. Perhaps these folks should have a separate site for Vegas-era Stones only.
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HMS
They took him rather for owning an amplifier than for his playing skills (at least I heard so).
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StoneburstQuote
HMS
They took him rather for owning an amplifier than for his playing skills (at least I heard so).
Welcome to IORR, Keith!
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71Tele
I read the comments about not liking or missing Bill or Mick Taylor and I am quite astounded. Perhaps these folks should have a separate site for Vegas-era Stones only.