The point is that you post here that he got addicted again because he told that reporter he had a taste of the stuff than fan tossed up on stage. That's a usual BS Keith interview, which you take further. That's when your imagination kicks in and the facts disappear.

Nothing wrong with a little dreaming, but you really must expect to be corrected on that. Same with Cooder and Bill. None of us know enough of those matters, whilst you are saying what happened.

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MrThompsonWooft

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DandelionPowderman

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Redhotcarpet

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
Listen to Keith hum the piano line on She's A Rainbow to Nicky on the Satanic tapes, Carpet, and then tell me again he hasn't written anything.

Watch the Sitting On A Fence-sequence in CIMD while you're at it.

You gotta stop making things up.

Another command by self appointed 'boss' Dandelion Powderman. It's no more fun posting here because of your behaviour, as if you own the truth. You don't. And you are literally in all threads here all the time.

We can provide info or we can make things up. The latter might fit your world the most, but there will always be people who appreciate technical info about songwriting. If not, I'm sure others will shower me with disgust and hate. None of that so far...

I enjoy discussions about the different aspects of songwriting, dynamics in the band etc. But I wouldn't say you're being showered with hate. the "police the board" thing is very common here. Im also guilty of that.

I my world it's simple. Stick to the facts and no one will complain about what you present as facts.

For instance, it's not a fact that Keith was zonked out on smack again in 1997, just because you say it a hundred times. It's not a fact that Bill wrote JFF or that most of Keith's great work in the "golden era" was lifted from Cooder.

When your Imagination is running away with you you should tolerate being corrected - without this bitterness. We are all being corrected, and we improve off it and become more knowledgeable.

There you go. You stand corrected. Take your medicine with humility. And don't let your imagination run away with you. And don't post about anything without checking whether it has been discussed before. And probably best not to step on the cracks in the pavement. Dandellion Powerman is very sensitive. Be nice to him.

A lovely post.

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DandelionPowderman

I Can Feel The Fire

I would apply an ointment to the afflicted region immediately

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treaclefingers

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DandelionPowderman

I Can Feel The Fire

I would apply an ointment to the afflicted region immediately

Does it come with a fly?

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DandelionPowderman
The point is that you post here that he got addicted again because he told that reporter he had a taste of the stuff than fan tossed up on stage. That's a usual BS Keith interview, which you take further. That's when your imagination kicks in and the facts disappear.

Nothing wrong with a little dreaming, but you really must expect to be corrected on that. Same with Cooder and Bill. None of us know enough of those matters, whilst you are saying what happened.

What do you mean no-one knows? Because you don't? I know what Ive read and I sure know what I hear and one can always analyze a piece of music or art or lyrics and make conclusions.

When you sayI make things up or imagine things you're not discussing or debating just belittling.

"you say it's a typical Keith BS interview - now you're just fantasizing, stop doing that and stick to the facts, we don't know if it is a BS interview".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-02 17:33 by Redhotcarpet.

Im new on here so according to some, my opinions are not really worthy of a reply.
i don't want to get banned so i try to stay out of trouble.
But to be fair, Dandelionpowderman only gave his opinion and stepped in when Redhotcarpet started talking silly.
You said that ''KR has not really wrote anything properly''. redhotcarpet you sound like an intelligent man from what i can gather , but with all due respect when you look so deep into the making of the music, as you do, you can miss something. you are dissecting things and you are trying to open them up to see what makes them tick. its not like that. the inspiration comes from something outside of the tools used to make the music. but you clearly find this hard to except . Bill is no Keith. He never was and never could be. If he found by accident the best Riff in the world, it would probably pass him by.
Keith actually has wrote these songs with the help of other band members. fact..
He and Mick take the credit, because they have constantly created to a higher level, than the other band members that collaborate with them. plus they take the credit because they can..

Quote
keefriffhards
Im new on here so according to some, my opinions are not really worthy of a reply.
i don't want to get banned so i try to stay out of trouble.
But to be fair, Dandelionpowderman only gave his opinion and stepped in when Redhotcarpet started talking silly.
You said that ''KR has not really wrote anything properly''. redhotcarpet you sound like an intelligent man from what i can gather , but with all due respect when you look so deep into the making of the music, as you do, you can miss something. you are dissecting things and you are trying to open them up to see what makes them tick. its not like that. the inspiration comes from something outside of the tools used to make the music. but you clearly find this hard to except . Bill is no Keith. He never was and never could be. If he found by accident the best Riff in the world, it would probably pass him by.
Keith actually has wrote these songs with the help of other band members. fact..
He and Mick take the credit, because they have constantly created to a higher level, than the other band members that collaborate with them. plus they take the credit because they can..

well said.

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Redhotcarpet

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DandelionPowderman
The point is that you post here that he got addicted again because he told that reporter he had a taste of the stuff than fan tossed up on stage. That's a usual BS Keith interview, which you take further. That's when your imagination kicks in and the facts disappear.

Nothing wrong with a little dreaming, but you really must expect to be corrected on that. Same with Cooder and Bill. None of us know enough of those matters, whilst you are saying what happened.

What do you mean no-one knows? Because you don't? I know what Ive read and I sure know what I hear and one can always analyze a piece of music or art or lyrics and make conclusions.

When you sayI make things up or imagine things you're not discussing or debating just belittling.

"you say it's a typical Keith BS interview - now you're just fantasizing, stop doing that and stick to the facts, we don't know if it is a BS interview".

Carpet, you're a good, long-time poster. When you add your own conclusions to stories with insufficient info, many posters may believe they are true, based on real facts. That's all.

I love your contributions here, as well as your dedication, but sometimes - whether it's you or me - we will get reactions when we take things too far.

I'm pretty sure we've read the same books, seen the same docus and even played the same instruments

no-keith didnt get addicted again in the 1990's.he had a quick little dance and it was over.it's not like he revisited the 70's again.

the songwriting thing is a little tricky because none of us were there and it gets a little blurred with time anyway.

some of the stuff was probably worked out with the band but credited to jagger/richards but who know's? bill was probably just telling the story for the sake of it anyway, not because it was some earth shattering moment in his life.

as for ry cooder,well i've seen more than one person suddenly become a musical genuis when they're around mick and keith.then suddenly when mick and keith are gone the person becomes very average-funny how that works.

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lem motlow
no-keith didnt get addicted again in the 1990's.he had a quick little dance and it was over.it's not like he revisited the 70's again.

the songwriting thing is a little tricky because none of us were there and it gets a little blurred with time anyway.

some of the stuff was probably worked out with the band but credited to jagger/richards but who know's? bill was probably just telling the story for the sake of it anyway, not because it was some earth shattering moment in his life.

as for ry cooder,well i've seen more than one person suddenly become a musical genuis when they're around mick and keith.then suddenly when mick and keith are gone the person becomes very average-funny how that works.

well summarized. can we put these to rest now?

are the Mick Taylor and Bill Wyman threads the "bash and slander keith richards" threads? can we at least merge them together and call them "Cheap shots: put your cheap, unsubstantiated shots at Keith Richards here"???

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keefriffhards
Im new on here so according to some, my opinions are not really worthy of a reply.
i don't want to get banned so i try to stay out of trouble.
But to be fair, Dandelionpowderman only gave his opinion and stepped in when Redhotcarpet started talking silly.
You said that ''KR has not really wrote anything properly''. redhotcarpet you sound like an intelligent man from what i can gather , but with all due respect when you look so deep into the making of the music, as you do, you can miss something. you are dissecting things and you are trying to open them up to see what makes them tick. its not like that. the inspiration comes from something outside of the tools used to make the music. but you clearly find this hard to except . Bill is no Keith. He never was and never could be. If he found by accident the best Riff in the world, it would probably pass him by.
Keith actually has wrote these songs with the help of other band members. fact..
He and Mick take the credit, because they have constantly created to a higher level, than the other band members that collaborate with them. plus they take the credit because they can..

well said. Thank you. I was imagining things and now im cured. But, Please i beg you all, i never meant keith didnt write anything, i never did. So stop repeating i said keith never wrote a song. I beg you. Re-read the whole thread.

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Redhotcarpet

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keefriffhards
Im new on here so according to some, my opinions are not really worthy of a reply.
i don't want to get banned so i try to stay out of trouble.
But to be fair, Dandelionpowderman only gave his opinion and stepped in when Redhotcarpet started talking silly.
You said that ''KR has not really wrote anything properly''. redhotcarpet you sound like an intelligent man from what i can gather , but with all due respect when you look so deep into the making of the music, as you do, you can miss something. you are dissecting things and you are trying to open them up to see what makes them tick. its not like that. the inspiration comes from something outside of the tools used to make the music. but you clearly find this hard to except . Bill is no Keith. He never was and never could be. If he found by accident the best Riff in the world, it would probably pass him by.
Keith actually has wrote these songs with the help of other band members. fact..
He and Mick take the credit, because they have constantly created to a higher level, than the other band members that collaborate with them. plus they take the credit because they can..

well said. Thank you. I was imagining things and now im cured. But, Please i beg you all, i never meant keith didnt write anything, i never did. So stop repeating i said keith never wrote a song. I beg you. Re-read the whole thread.

Not to worry Carpet.
It was not meant at just you. its because of the general Keith bashing that goes on here that i picked up on this thread to say what i wanted to say. Please don't take it so hard. (pardon the pun ). Reading lots of your posts your a good thoughtful poster. I believe you didn't mean Keith has not written anything literally.

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keefriffhards

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Redhotcarpet

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keefriffhards
Im new on here so according to some, my opinions are not really worthy of a reply.
i don't want to get banned so i try to stay out of trouble.
But to be fair, Dandelionpowderman only gave his opinion and stepped in when Redhotcarpet started talking silly.
You said that ''KR has not really wrote anything properly''. redhotcarpet you sound like an intelligent man from what i can gather , but with all due respect when you look so deep into the making of the music, as you do, you can miss something. you are dissecting things and you are trying to open them up to see what makes them tick. its not like that. the inspiration comes from something outside of the tools used to make the music. but you clearly find this hard to except . Bill is no Keith. He never was and never could be. If he found by accident the best Riff in the world, it would probably pass him by.
Keith actually has wrote these songs with the help of other band members. fact..
He and Mick take the credit, because they have constantly created to a higher level, than the other band members that collaborate with them. plus they take the credit because they can..

well said. Thank you. I was imagining things and now im cured. But, Please i beg you all, i never meant keith didnt write anything, i never did. So stop repeating i said keith never wrote a song. I beg you. Re-read the whole thread.

Not to worry Carpet.
It was not meant at just you. its because of the general Keith bashing that goes on here that i picked up on this thread to say what i wanted to say. Please don't take it so hard. (pardon the pun ). Reading lots of your posts your a good thoughtful poster. I believe you didn't mean Keith has not written anything literally.

Is there actually music on paper with Keith's handwriting? I mean does there exist any musical score from his hand? Has he, to say it simple, really written anything on paper?

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keefriffhards
Im new on here so according to some, my opinions are not really worthy of a reply.
i don't want to get banned so i try to stay out of trouble.
But to be fair, Dandelionpowderman only gave his opinion and stepped in when Redhotcarpet started talking silly.
You said that ''KR has not really wrote anything properly''. redhotcarpet you sound like an intelligent man from what i can gather , but with all due respect when you look so deep into the making of the music, as you do, you can miss something. you are dissecting things and you are trying to open them up to see what makes them tick. its not like that. the inspiration comes from something outside of the tools used to make the music. but you clearly find this hard to except . Bill is no Keith. He never was and never could be. If he found by accident the best Riff in the world, it would probably pass him by.
Keith actually has wrote these songs with the help of other band members. fact..
He and Mick take the credit, because they have constantly created to a higher level, than the other band members that collaborate with them. plus they take the credit because they can..

Not that I disagree with what you wrote, but that last sentence you wrote sort of supersedes everything else doesn't it? Sort of like Brian Jones taking the extra share because he could...until he couldn't. sort of pissed the other guys off it seemed...

Here's John Lennon talking about Miss You... Unlike the hapless Bill Wyman, Lennon wrote a few songs in his time.

[www.beatlesbible.com]

Lennon later revealed his belief that The Rolling Stones' 1978 song Miss You was based on Bless You, although the resemblance is difficult to hear.

<< Bless You is again about Yoko. I think Mick Jagger took Bless You and turned it into Miss You. [singing] 'Wherever you are, child on a shooting star.' The engineer kept wanting me to speed that up - he said, 'This is a hit song if you'd just do it fast.' He was right. 'Cause as Miss You it turned into a hit. >>

Imagine Miss You credits as Jagger/Richards/Preston/Lennon/Wyman.. lol.. Not that Bill ever indicated he should get a credit there..but its funny to think about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-02 23:28 by SweetThing.

Here's the rest of what Lennon said of songwriting credits in general...

<< I have no ill feelings about it. I think it's a great Stones track, and I really love it. But I do hear that lick in it. Could be subconscious or conscious. It's irrelevant. Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it. >>

Also, another point we've touched on is people's memories. If you go back to the link, there's two posters who speculate that Lennon was talking about a different song of his in connection to Miss You.. so, its layers upon layers...

The last time I think Mick Taylor ever mentioned songwriting credits and his leaving the band.. he prefaced it by stating something along the lines of "it may seem silly now" but that at the time, it was an issue for him... so, perhaps his overall philosophy is not so much unlike Lennon's in more recent times.

Personally I think Bill could never in a million years have written JJF, but I don't doubt he came up with the great riff on piano. And, that was pretty important..and deserving in my mind at least. But thats all it is..simply an opinion; the facts never to be fully known.

I think he meant bless you and the song scared which has pretty much the same melody ( as miss you). Similar.

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kleermaker

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keefriffhards

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Redhotcarpet

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keefriffhards
Im new on here so according to some, my opinions are not really worthy of a reply.
i don't want to get banned so i try to stay out of trouble.
But to be fair, Dandelionpowderman only gave his opinion and stepped in when Redhotcarpet started talking silly.
You said that ''KR has not really wrote anything properly''. redhotcarpet you sound like an intelligent man from what i can gather , but with all due respect when you look so deep into the making of the music, as you do, you can miss something. you are dissecting things and you are trying to open them up to see what makes them tick. its not like that. the inspiration comes from something outside of the tools used to make the music. but you clearly find this hard to except . Bill is no Keith. He never was and never could be. If he found by accident the best Riff in the world, it would probably pass him by.
Keith actually has wrote these songs with the help of other band members. fact..
He and Mick take the credit, because they have constantly created to a higher level, than the other band members that collaborate with them. plus they take the credit because they can..

well said. Thank you. I was imagining things and now im cured. But, Please i beg you all, i never meant keith didnt write anything, i never did. So stop repeating i said keith never wrote a song. I beg you. Re-read the whole thread.

Not to worry Carpet.
It was not meant at just you. its because of the general Keith bashing that goes on here that i picked up on this thread to say what i wanted to say. Please don't take it so hard. (pardon the pun ). Reading lots of your posts your a good thoughtful poster. I believe you didn't mean Keith has not written anything literally.

Is there actually music on paper with Keith's handwriting? I mean does there exist any musical score from his hand? Has he, to say it simple, really written anything on paper?

yes. watch the jim dickinson interview. he explains keith writing out the chords for wild horses, on paper, for him. sigh.

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SweetThing
Here's the rest of what Lennon said of songwriting credits in general...

<< I have no ill feelings about it. I think it's a great Stones track, and I really love it. But I do hear that lick in it. Could be subconscious or conscious. It's irrelevant. Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it. >>

Also, another point we've touched on is people's memories. If you go back to the link, there's two posters who speculate that Lennon was talking about a different song of his in connection to Miss You.. so, its layers upon layers...

The last time I think Mick Taylor ever mentioned songwriting credits and his leaving the band.. he prefaced it by stating something along the lines of "it may seem silly now" but that at the time, it was an issue for him... so, perhaps his overall philosophy is not so much unlike Lennon's in more recent times.

Personally I think Bill could never in a million years have written JJF, but I don't doubt he came up with the great riff on piano. And, that was pretty important..and deserving in my mind at least. But thats all it is..simply an opinion; the facts never to be fully known.

lennon was right. gold rings on you john lennon.

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SweetThing

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keefriffhards
Im new on here so according to some, my opinions are not really worthy of a reply.
i don't want to get banned so i try to stay out of trouble.
But to be fair, Dandelionpowderman only gave his opinion and stepped in when Redhotcarpet started talking silly.
You said that ''KR has not really wrote anything properly''. redhotcarpet you sound like an intelligent man from what i can gather , but with all due respect when you look so deep into the making of the music, as you do, you can miss something. you are dissecting things and you are trying to open them up to see what makes them tick. its not like that. the inspiration comes from something outside of the tools used to make the music. but you clearly find this hard to except . Bill is no Keith. He never was and never could be. If he found by accident the best Riff in the world, it would probably pass him by.
Keith actually has wrote these songs with the help of other band members. fact..
He and Mick take the credit, because they have constantly created to a higher level, than the other band members that collaborate with them. plus they take the credit because they can..

Not that I disagree with what you wrote, but that last sentence you wrote sort of supersedes everything else doesn't it? Sort of like Brian Jones taking the extra share because he could...until he couldn't. sort of pissed the other guys off it seemed...

yes because ultimately if there were any arguments about song writing credits within the band , i would imagine Mick and Keith to be ruthless enough back then to say, well, there is the door if you don't like it mate. we can replace you sort of thing.
I would add that in the case of Brian the stones have not had a number one hit since he left. his input may of made that subtle difference between making incredible music, but somehow lacking in the popularity stakes.. just saying..

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keefriffhards

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SweetThing

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keefriffhards
Im new on here so according to some, my opinions are not really worthy of a reply.
i don't want to get banned so i try to stay out of trouble.
But to be fair, Dandelionpowderman only gave his opinion and stepped in when Redhotcarpet started talking silly.
You said that ''KR has not really wrote anything properly''. redhotcarpet you sound like an intelligent man from what i can gather , but with all due respect when you look so deep into the making of the music, as you do, you can miss something. you are dissecting things and you are trying to open them up to see what makes them tick. its not like that. the inspiration comes from something outside of the tools used to make the music. but you clearly find this hard to except . Bill is no Keith. He never was and never could be. If he found by accident the best Riff in the world, it would probably pass him by.
Keith actually has wrote these songs with the help of other band members. fact..
He and Mick take the credit, because they have constantly created to a higher level, than the other band members that collaborate with them. plus they take the credit because they can..

Not that I disagree with what you wrote, but that last sentence you wrote sort of supersedes everything else doesn't it? Sort of like Brian Jones taking the extra share because he could...until he couldn't. sort of pissed the other guys off it seemed...

yes because ultimately if there were any arguments about song writing credits within the band , i would imagine Mick and Keith to be ruthless enough back then to say, well, there is the door if you don't like it mate. we can replace you sort of thing.
I would add that in the case of Brian the stones have not had a number one hit since he left. his input may of made that subtle difference between making incredible music, but somehow lacking in the popularity stakes.. just saying..

I hope you meant Bill, because otherwise you forgot Brown Sugar, Angie, and Miss You...

Mick wanted to fire Bill in 1969.

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HearMeKnockin

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keefriffhards

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SweetThing

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keefriffhards
Im new on here so according to some, my opinions are not really worthy of a reply.
i don't want to get banned so i try to stay out of trouble.
But to be fair, Dandelionpowderman only gave his opinion and stepped in when Redhotcarpet started talking silly.
You said that ''KR has not really wrote anything properly''. redhotcarpet you sound like an intelligent man from what i can gather , but with all due respect when you look so deep into the making of the music, as you do, you can miss something. you are dissecting things and you are trying to open them up to see what makes them tick. its not like that. the inspiration comes from something outside of the tools used to make the music. but you clearly find this hard to except . Bill is no Keith. He never was and never could be. If he found by accident the best Riff in the world, it would probably pass him by.
Keith actually has wrote these songs with the help of other band members. fact..
He and Mick take the credit, because they have constantly created to a higher level, than the other band members that collaborate with them. plus they take the credit because they can..

Not that I disagree with what you wrote, but that last sentence you wrote sort of supersedes everything else doesn't it? Sort of like Brian Jones taking the extra share because he could...until he couldn't. sort of pissed the other guys off it seemed...

yes because ultimately if there were any arguments about song writing credits within the band , i would imagine Mick and Keith to be ruthless enough back then to say, well, there is the door if you don't like it mate. we can replace you sort of thing.
I would add that in the case of Brian the stones have not had a number one hit since he left. his input may of made that subtle difference between making incredible music, but somehow lacking in the popularity stakes.. just saying..

I hope you meant Bill, because otherwise you forgot Brown Sugar, Angie, and Miss You...

I mean't Brian Jones. its quite clear its spelt differently to bill..

the Stones have not had a No 1 hit record in the UK since Honky Tonk Women.

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Redhotcarpet
Mick wanted to fire Bill in 1969.

Confirmed by both Mick and Bill, of course...

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keefriffhards

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HearMeKnockin

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keefriffhards

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SweetThing

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keefriffhards
Im new on here so according to some, my opinions are not really worthy of a reply.
i don't want to get banned so i try to stay out of trouble.
But to be fair, Dandelionpowderman only gave his opinion and stepped in when Redhotcarpet started talking silly.
You said that ''KR has not really wrote anything properly''. redhotcarpet you sound like an intelligent man from what i can gather , but with all due respect when you look so deep into the making of the music, as you do, you can miss something. you are dissecting things and you are trying to open them up to see what makes them tick. its not like that. the inspiration comes from something outside of the tools used to make the music. but you clearly find this hard to except . Bill is no Keith. He never was and never could be. If he found by accident the best Riff in the world, it would probably pass him by.
Keith actually has wrote these songs with the help of other band members. fact..
He and Mick take the credit, because they have constantly created to a higher level, than the other band members that collaborate with them. plus they take the credit because they can..

Not that I disagree with what you wrote, but that last sentence you wrote sort of supersedes everything else doesn't it? Sort of like Brian Jones taking the extra share because he could...until he couldn't. sort of pissed the other guys off it seemed...

yes because ultimately if there were any arguments about song writing credits within the band , i would imagine Mick and Keith to be ruthless enough back then to say, well, there is the door if you don't like it mate. we can replace you sort of thing.
I would add that in the case of Brian the stones have not had a number one hit since he left. his input may of made that subtle difference between making incredible music, but somehow lacking in the popularity stakes.. just saying..

I hope you meant Bill, because otherwise you forgot Brown Sugar, Angie, and Miss You...

I mean't Brian Jones. its quite clear its spelt differently to bill..

the Stones have not had a No 1 hit record in the UK since Honky Tonk Women.

As if #1 Hits actually mean anything in the context of the Stones or good music in general. Have you seen/heard some of the #1 Hits in the last 3 decades? Rarely does a good rock tune get even close, it's dominated by least common denominator pop and shove it down your throat flavor of the month stuff.

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Naturalust

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keefriffhards

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HearMeKnockin

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keefriffhards

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SweetThing

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keefriffhards
Im new on here so according to some, my opinions are not really worthy of a reply.
i don't want to get banned so i try to stay out of trouble.
But to be fair, Dandelionpowderman only gave his opinion and stepped in when Redhotcarpet started talking silly.
You said that ''KR has not really wrote anything properly''. redhotcarpet you sound like an intelligent man from what i can gather , but with all due respect when you look so deep into the making of the music, as you do, you can miss something. you are dissecting things and you are trying to open them up to see what makes them tick. its not like that. the inspiration comes from something outside of the tools used to make the music. but you clearly find this hard to except . Bill is no Keith. He never was and never could be. If he found by accident the best Riff in the world, it would probably pass him by.
Keith actually has wrote these songs with the help of other band members. fact..
He and Mick take the credit, because they have constantly created to a higher level, than the other band members that collaborate with them. plus they take the credit because they can..

Not that I disagree with what you wrote, but that last sentence you wrote sort of supersedes everything else doesn't it? Sort of like Brian Jones taking the extra share because he could...until he couldn't. sort of pissed the other guys off it seemed...

yes because ultimately if there were any arguments about song writing credits within the band , i would imagine Mick and Keith to be ruthless enough back then to say, well, there is the door if you don't like it mate. we can replace you sort of thing.
I would add that in the case of Brian the stones have not had a number one hit since he left. his input may of made that subtle difference between making incredible music, but somehow lacking in the popularity stakes.. just saying..

I hope you meant Bill, because otherwise you forgot Brown Sugar, Angie, and Miss You...

I mean't Brian Jones. its quite clear its spelt differently to bill..

the Stones have not had a No 1 hit record in the UK since Honky Tonk Women.

As if #1 Hits actually mean anything in the context of the Stones or good music in general. Have you seen/heard some of the #1 Hits in the last 3 decades? Rarely does a good rock tune get even close, it's dominated by least common denominator pop and shove it down your throat flavor of the month stuff.

you don't need to tell me that lol. i hate the charts. the best stones songs have never been released as singles. it was just an observation that Brian with his citar may of helped PIB become a hit. but yes im over hits now. although it would be fantastic if the stones did record an album and it became number one.

<<I mean't Brian Jones. its quite clear its spelt differently to bill..

the Stones have not had a No 1 hit record in the UK since Honky Tonk Women.>>

But that song has Mick Taylor and not Brian on it.

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stonehearted
<<I mean't Brian Jones. its quite clear its spelt differently to bill..

the Stones have not had a No 1 hit record in the UK since Honky Tonk Women.>>

But that song has Mick Taylor and not Brian on it.

you got me there dude

The issue of Bill's possible invention of "Jumping Jack Flash" riff has been discussed rather thoroughly here in the past. Since I haven't heard any new 'facts' been pupped up, and I have nothing to add into what I've already said, let me just remind two claims by Bill by which he kind of supports his initial claim, I recall discussed earlier, and not mentioned in this thread yet.

Firstly, Bill says that he has some sort of document in which Keith admits that Bill came up with the riff.

Secondly, Bill says that he would have been given the credition for "Flash" had he not left the band (or if he had returned; can't recall the context any longer).

The problem with the former is that we don't have that document - for example, our missed, great contributor His Majesty has (had?) a great collection of old British magazines, papers, etc. and no such a Keith quote is to be found.

But remember, we used to have a great debate concerning the invention of another iconic riff - that of "The Last Time". Even though Brian played it, many people were suspicious if Brian had been the one not just playing it, but also that of creating it. The arguments in favor of Keith resembled back then quite much the current ones for "Flash". However, above mentioned His Majesty discovered an old paper from the 60's, in which Keith straight-forwardly says that Brian created the whole thing. Even though it was 'just' a few words by Richards in a written form, that seemingly was reliable enough to convince 'anyone'.

What goes for the plausibility of the second claim by Wyman: if it really is true, even then it wouldn't straight-forwardy made the initial claim true. Namely, one could counter-argue that The Stones could have made whatever sacrifices (within a reason) to keep the guy in band/to bring him back back then. If it would have cost them the third of the credition of one of their biggest hits, well, that's the price...

Even though there seems - or ought - to be a kind of consensus here now that 'we' should not pay much attention to Bill's claim, I think that kind of 'agreement' or 'conclusion' need to derive from the belief that Bill Wyman is just not misremembering, perceiving differently, but cold-heartidly and systematically lying. That is a bit too harsh for me. I think this still very much is an open case (that is: until there is a stronger 'proof', I can't be sure about it, but at the moment I tend to think that Bill Wyman was the man who came up with the riff; the way I interpret current data I am familiar with is favoring him).

(A side remark: I don't think that we really have much use for the mentioned distinction between "providing info" and "making things up", since there simply aren't so many "hard facts" concerning song-writing and other creative processes. Whether we are awere of that or not, we do a lot of guesses, and our views have so so many presuppostions, firm beliefs and idiosoncratic conceptions, which dictate our observation and interpretation of 'facts'. If we want to have a some kind of coherent picture of all of that we need to consult our imagination (or reason, if you like). For that we need - as we actually do - to use all there is - recorded documents, pictures, people's words, own ears, our pre-knowledge, etc - but in the end it is just an educated guess, at best. If we really would just "stick to the facts", we would know and understand next to nothing.)

In the end, the riff in question, no matter how catchy and famous it is (especially thanks to the way Keith plays it with the guitar), musically (without the context of the song or iconic guitar 'interpretation') it is just a simple, a few notes thing almost anyone could might have occasionally come up with, if had fooled a bit with "Satisfaction" kind of scheme in mind. I mean, if we forget the 'guitar interpretation' - how it is played with the guitar - (which we don't do, because we think the whole thing basically as a guitar riff), and just consider its core musical skeleton one could play with any instrument... composing that is not exactly the biggest musical achievement in the world, for which one needs to be a musical genious... (Sorry, Bill!)

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-03 14:00 by Doxa.

Part of the confusion seems to come from the definition of what it means: "writing a riff". Because, let's face it, the basic notes of the JJF riff are nothing special, and playing a kind of blues or boogie it would come up almost inevitably and certainly has came up, loads of time, in many jams. So, in the end, maybe W.C. Handy wrote the riff. The same can be said for Satisfaction: the basic riff (that particular sequence of notes) already existed long before in blues and rock n roll. (And it's no coincidence either that Satisfaction and JJF actually have a lot in common.) It's even the case that on the live versions the actual riff-notes of JJF are different than on the studio version, even though it's always in B. So: somehow, the strenght of JJF is not in the notes but in how it's played, the harmonies and rhythm and the melody.

So: yes, I can believe Bill was playing this tutu tududum thing on the piano when Keith and Mick came into the studio. And then Keith and Mick turned it into JJF, with undeniably a large contribution of Bill and Charlie and who knows whoever else was around. It would have been nice of them - in general - to share more credits with the rest of the band, but "writing a riff" might not always be the way to define what the origin of a song is.