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Turner68

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Redhotcarpet
And I think it's perfectly normal and fitting. The band wrote the soundtrack of a lifestyle. Brian's lifestyle and later Keiths and Micks. It's not that important who wrote what from a producers or a managers perspective. The goal was to sell as many records and tickets as possible. Brian, Mick and Keith sold the material. It didn't matter if Cooder, Taylor, Wyman or Jones or somebody else, Miller, made huge contributions because in the end it's the product that counts. Selling also meant that their credibility relied on a counterpoint to Lennon/McCartney. All songs must be credited Jagger/Richards even if Wyman comes up with a riff. But we should be able to say this now 50 years later.

you don't know what you're talking about. the royalties from songwriting are enormous - roughly equal to the performance royalties, and split among fewer people. songwriting credit on JJF is worth millions over the past 50 years. anyone who has a reasonable claim would have come forward. certainly the financial implications are large enough that they wouldn't say "ooh let's have two names separated by a slash just like lennon/mccartney, let's randomly pick to see who should it be..."

Bill just said that, if you were a member of the band you didn't sue for royalties. Had he done that or created a scene they'd fire him. They tried to fire him in 1969.
He just wants people to know Jagger/Richards doesnt equal "Mick and Keith wrote the song". Sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't. Wyman wrote a riff but of course Keith and Mick will never acknowledge that because they risk getting sued. It's not a conspiracy - it's just business and probably pride. Legacy. Vanity perhaps. Bill spoke openly about the JJF riff already in 1982. Read the interview. He doesn't make this stuff up, he sounds very reliable. You guys go ahead and believe the old image of Mick and Keith - I prefer finding out more about how this band created and recorded their songs.

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Stoneage
Didn't they? Bill leaving meant that they only had to share the ever increasing money pool on 4 instead of 5 members...

When Bill left, didn't he claim (here we go again) that he made the case for Ronnie to be taken off salary, and made a full shareholder? And the Glimmers then did just that. So the overall pot remained divided 4 ways as before.... albeit without one presumably generous salary taken out that had been paid previously.

Thats what I thought I read somewhere, once upon a time...

In honor of Redhotcarpet, I am proud to announce the release of a compilation of the greatest hits composed by Bill Wyman.

The compilation features Bill's two most successful compositions, Jumping Jack Flash and Je Suis un Rock Star.

It is recommended that you listen to the songs one after the other so that you can fully appreciate the similarities in structure, flair and style of songwriting that unmistakably stamps each one as a "Wyman Tune".









Note to Bill: we miss you and we appreciate everything you did with the stones. we don't care who wrote what.

Well to be fair Mick and Keith have not penned any since Bill left the Stones either, imo. Perhaps Bill was the magic catalyst?

WELL Naturalust to put it another way ... Bill didn't actually pen many classics before HE left either



ROCKMAN

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Naturalust

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Rockman
And Bill's penned so many classics since he left the Stones

Well to be fair Mick and Keith have not penned any since Bill left the Stones either, imo. Perhaps Bill was the magic catalyst?

They hadn't penned any in the 10 years prior to his departure either... what was the best song? Mixed Emotions? One Hit (to the Body)?

I will try it this way...... So after 28 years of relentlessly trying to break the Jagger/Richards domination........Bill quit. However in about 4 years, long before he was even a "member", Ronnie was able to break into the dreamteam, again, not because his ideas were better, but because Mick and Keith didn't want Bill to get any credit......

No, I believe Wyman gave up attempting to submit songs before 1970... There is nothing about him relentlessly trying to break into Stones' songwriting credits for 28 years.

Did Ronnie co-write IORR? If he did, he surely didn't sue, notwithstanding all the millions of dollars at stake. They may well have had an agreement I recall mentioned..in connection to I Can Feel the Fire..so all is well in a sense, but if he did cowrite it, it once again renders the credits as fairly arbitrary.

Later on...according to Wiki.....

"Hey Negrita" is a song by The Rolling Stones that appeared on their 1976 album Black and Blue.

Credited to Mick Jagger and Keith Richards, Ron Wood apparently wrote the song's main riff, a piece of music he took with him to Munich's Musicland Studios where he and other guitarists were auditioning for the second guitarist slot left open after the departure of Mick Taylor.[1] For his contribution, Wood would receive an "inspiration by" credit on the final album. In 2003, Wood recounted, "All of us, independently and together, were into reggae, and it was also a mood of the time. I had this particular lick that I took into the studio and the others said, What are we going to start with? and I said, I've got this song. Charlie [Watts] was sitting behind his kit, so he was already into it and then Keith and Mick both got into the motion of it. That was 'Hey Negrita', which came together very easily. The key to getting a song across in this band is never to try and write all the words. If you've got the rhythm, you're lucky! Let Mick write the words and then you're in with a chance."[2]

But Ronnie really can't speak to what things were like prior .....and what he apparently says here, is hardly a ringing endorsement of consistency or fair handedness... though I suppose it can mean whatever someone wants it to mean.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-01 04:42 by SweetThing.

Well.....it was mostly sarcasm. I don't think Bill had much to offer, or that he really tried. I use Ronnie as an example that it WAS possible to break through, and even get credit for things he wasn't"officially" given credit for.

Yes, I understand... I doubt Bill had a lot to offer in the songwriting department, and though it is possible on occasion he did, (sort of like Ronnie's or even..the germ on JJF), the fact is, The Glimmers were both outstanding and prolific. Bill's resentment is a bit unreasonable I think in so much as he is perhaps implying at times he should've been given more opportunities. But sour grapes over, for arguments sake, the JJF riff is not strange to me. If I read Ronnie right, *his* notion is don't write too much, because it might well be your song then, and have to be given credit, so it won't be used. Maybe just contribute something brilliant -
INTRODUCE it formally - as a genesis of a song...THEN let Jagger write the lyrics to the point where MAYBE you don't get CREDIT at that point... or maybe you do.. LOL... and this is coming after Taylor and Wyman's experiences, and the Glimmers are more mature, and vastly richer, etc. It paints a pretty good picture in my mind at least of what the deal is.

Turner 68, i dont know what you meant by that. Noone says bill wrote jjf. He wrote the riff. Ron wood wrote the hey negrita riff. He eas already a signed famous co partner of rod stewart, a rock star, ehen he joined the stones. He was willing to take the heat. He says himself that he had to fight for credits. He traded iorr for stoyn or was it black limo?

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SweetThing
Yes, I understand... I doubt Bill had a lot to offer in the songwriting department, and though it is possible on occasion he did, (sort of like Ronnie's or even..the germ on JJF), the fact is, The Glimmers were both outstanding and prolific. Bill's resentment is a bit unreasonable I think in so much as he is perhaps implying at times he should've been given more opportunities. But sour grapes over, for arguments sake, the JJF riff is not strange to me. If I read Ronnie right, *his* notion is don't write too much, because it might well be your song then, and have to be given credit, so it won't be used. Maybe just contribute something brilliant -
INTRODUCE it formally - as a genesis of a song...THEN let Jagger write the lyrics to the point where MAYBE you don't get CREDIT at that point... or maybe you do.. LOL... and this is coming after Taylor and Wyman's experiences, and the Glimmers are more mature, and vastly richer, etc. It paints a pretty good picture in my mind at least of what the deal is.

I think Ronnie's assessment is spot on. He has he great feeling for social relationships, which as a matter of fact has brought him the job as second guitarist. Actually he describes the dominance of the (then becoming shaky) Jagger/Richards block very plausibly. No doubt that domination was there very early on, about since 1964/65.

"Bill Wyman: The Stones Never Forgave Me For Leaving"

me neither



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-01 16:28 by 1962.

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Rockman
Well to be fair Mick and Keith have not penned any since Bill left the Stones either, imo. Perhaps Bill was the magic catalyst?

WELL Naturalust to put it another way ... Bill didn't actually pen many classics before HE left either

Are you trying to tell me Downtown Suzie isn't a "classic", Rockman?

Shame.

As I see it, when Bill, MT, Ronnie etc., you name him, claim that they deserve to be "credited" for certain contributions, most of the time they don't refer to proper "songwriting credits" in its legal meaning.

Very simply, I think that they only want their contribution to be recognized by Mick and Keith. On books, interviews etc.

Any economic claim is largely (and I mean LARGELY) compensated by the fact of being in the same band with a singer called Mick Jagger.

So did Bill "write" JJF's riff? Properly write? No way. But I am sure that he might have inspired it playing something similar on the piano/organ (by the way, this is what he himself has always said).

Would it have been nice from Mick/Keith acknowledge the inspiration? Probably yes.

But that's it.

Rock and roll songwriting credits, from a legal point of view, are impossible to pinpoint, so it is all up to how the members of the band agree to split the cake.

How many HUGE hits were created by "anonymous" contributions by sesssion players?

Just think how much Herbie Flowers received for his Walk on the Wild side bass line.

If Bill complains, what should James Jamerson have said?

C

<<Just think how much Herbie Flowers received for his Walk on the Wild side bass line.>>

For a single 3-hour session, £12. This is why he overdubbed his bass part with another bass, so he could receive £24 instead.

Flowers explains the "crafty little thing that us session musos used to get up to" to get double the money: [www.youtube.com]

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liddas
As I see it, when Bill, MT, Ronnie etc., you name him, claim that they deserve to be "credited" for certain contributions, most of the time they don't refer to proper "songwriting credits" in its legal meaning.

Very simply, I think that they only want their contribution to be recognized by Mick and Keith. On books, interviews etc.

Any economic claim is largely (and I mean LARGELY) compensated by the fact of being in the same band with a singer called Mick Jagger.

So did Bill "write" JJF's riff? Properly write? No way. But I am sure that he might have inspired it playing something similar on the piano/organ (by the way, this is what he himself has always said).

Would it have been nice from Mick/Keith acknowledge the inspiration? Probably yes.

But that's it.

Rock and roll songwriting credits, from a legal point of view, are impossible to pinpoint, so it is all up to how the members of the band agree to split the cake.

How many HUGE hits were created by "anonymous" contributions by sesssion players?

Just think how much Herbie Flowers received for his Walk on the Wild side bass line.

If Bill complains, what should James Jamerson have said?

C

The credit is by being in the band. You mention session musicians who don't get credit at - now *that* is an issue. But bill was a member of the Rolling stones. It was his job to come up with ideas.

I assume every single Rolling Stones song is influenced by the band members. Does Charlie go whining to interviewers and writing books every time one of his drum parts isn't credited to him by Mick and Keith? Of course not. It's assumed. I assume that Bill Wyman was a big part of the end result of most of the Stones songs he plays on. He deserves that credit.

Unless someone on here is the ghost of Jimmy Miller, however, none of us can claim to know who wrote what riff when the band members themselves don't agree.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-01 20:08 by Turner68.

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71Tele

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Rockman
Well to be fair Mick and Keith have not penned any since Bill left the Stones either, imo. Perhaps Bill was the magic catalyst?

WELL Naturalust to put it another way ... Bill didn't actually pen many classics before HE left either

Are you trying to tell me Downtown Suzie isn't a "classic", Rockman?

Shame.

I don't know who wrote the boogie-woogie Stu plays on the outro to Dirty Work, but that's classic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-01 21:42 by Turner68.

<<I assume that Bill Wyman was a big part of the end result of most of the Stones songs he plays on. He deserves that credit.>>

He deserves arranger's credit, which involves musical structure. Songwriting, on the other hand, involves a title, words, phrases, verses, ideas, and subject matter, as well as basic melody and countermelody. All of this the songwriter brings to the table, or sessions as it were, and the musicians or band add their chops and contribute to the arrangement of the song.

More than musical credit, though, I believe what bothered Bill most about his tenure with the Stones was that he never got a hug or a pat on the back. In interviews, like in the pre-Some Girls tour 20/20 television special of 1978, he's always talking of the Stones like it's "family", and it was to his great disappointment to find that it wasn't really, at least not in the sense that he had hoped.

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liddas
As I see it, when Bill, MT, Ronnie etc., you name him, claim that they deserve to be "credited" for certain contributions, most of the time they don't refer to proper "songwriting credits" in its legal meaning.

Very simply, I think that they only want their contribution to be recognized by Mick and Keith. On books, interviews etc.

Any economic claim is largely (and I mean LARGELY) compensated by the fact of being in the same band with a singer called Mick Jagger.

So did Bill "write" JJF's riff? Properly write? No way. But I am sure that he might have inspired it playing something similar on the piano/organ (by the way, this is what he himself has always said).

Would it have been nice from Mick/Keith acknowledge the inspiration? Probably yes.

But that's it.

Rock and roll songwriting credits, from a legal point of view, are impossible to pinpoint, so it is all up to how the members of the band agree to split the cake.

How many HUGE hits were created by "anonymous" contributions by sesssion players?

Just think how much Herbie Flowers received for his Walk on the Wild side bass line.

If Bill complains, what should James Jamerson have said?

C

Keith hasnt properly written anything. Jjf riff was written by/ composed/ played by wyman. Satisfaction riff was "written" by/ keith. Nicky hopkins played/ maybe wrote stuff on piano- some of it propably was played by keith on guitar. The sax solo on waiting on a friend was based on nickys piano melody which also is the melody mick sings in falsetto. Hopkins made a huge input on that song. Bill played a riff on keys, keith played that riff on guitar.

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Rockman
Well to be fair Mick and Keith have not penned any since Bill left the Stones either, imo. Perhaps Bill was the magic catalyst?

WELL Naturalust to put it another way ... Bill didn't actually pen many classics before HE left either

Evening Gown, Hate It When You Leave and ... (fill in Bill's classic)

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stonehearted
<<I assume that Bill Wyman was a big part of the end result of most of the Stones songs he plays on. He deserves that credit.>>

He deserves arranger's credit, which involves musical structure. Songwriting, on the other hand, involves a title, words, phrases, verses, ideas, and subject matter, as well as basic melody and countermelody. All of this the songwriter brings to the table, or sessions as it were, and the musicians or band add their chops and contribute to the arrangement of the song.

More than musical credit, though, I believe what bothered Bill most about his tenure with the Stones was that he never got a hug or a pat on the back. In interviews, like in the pre-Some Girls tour 20/20 television special of 1978, he's always talking of the Stones like it's "family", and it was to his great disappointment to find that it wasn't really, at least not in the sense that he had hoped.

i agree about your analysis of Bill, and to be clear, i was saying that i felt bill received the credit on JJF that he deserves, since he is a member of the stones and it's a stones song.

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Redhotcarpet
Turner 68, i dont know what you meant by that. Noone says bill wrote jjf. He wrote the riff. Ron wood wrote the hey negrita riff. He eas already a signed famous co partner of rod stewart, a rock star, ehen he joined the stones. He was willing to take the heat. He says himself that he had to fight for credits. He traded iorr for stoyn or was it black limo?

I Can Feel The Fire

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Redhotcarpet

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liddas
As I see it, when Bill, MT, Ronnie etc., you name him, claim that they deserve to be "credited" for certain contributions, most of the time they don't refer to proper "songwriting credits" in its legal meaning.

Very simply, I think that they only want their contribution to be recognized by Mick and Keith. On books, interviews etc.

Any economic claim is largely (and I mean LARGELY) compensated by the fact of being in the same band with a singer called Mick Jagger.

So did Bill "write" JJF's riff? Properly write? No way. But I am sure that he might have inspired it playing something similar on the piano/organ (by the way, this is what he himself has always said).

Would it have been nice from Mick/Keith acknowledge the inspiration? Probably yes.

But that's it.

Rock and roll songwriting credits, from a legal point of view, are impossible to pinpoint, so it is all up to how the members of the band agree to split the cake.

How many HUGE hits were created by "anonymous" contributions by sesssion players?

Just think how much Herbie Flowers received for his Walk on the Wild side bass line.

If Bill complains, what should James Jamerson have said?

C

Keith hasnt properly written anything. Jjf riff was written by/ composed/ played by wyman. Satisfaction riff was "written" by/ keith. Nicky hopkins played/ maybe wrote stuff on piano- some of it propably was played by keith on guitar. The sax solo on waiting on a friend was based on nickys piano melody which also is the melody mick sings in falsetto. Hopkins made a huge input on that song. Bill played a riff on keys, keith played that riff on guitar.

''Keith hasnt properly written anything.'' Redhotcarpet..

you serious. the old Riff Master has not properly written anything. Not JJF not Satisfaction. where are the famous Bill Wynman Riff's that Rocked the world since he left lol

Listen to Keith hum the piano line on She's A Rainbow to Nicky on the Satanic tapes, Carpet, and then tell me again he hasn't written anything.

Watch the Sitting On A Fence-sequence in CIMD while you're at it.

You gotta stop making things up.

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DandelionPowderman
Listen to Keith hum the piano line on She's A Rainbow to Nicky on the Satanic tapes, Carpet, and then tell me again he hasn't written anything.

Watch the Sitting On A Fence-sequence in CIMD while you're at it.

You gotta stop making things up.

So Keith wrote the melody line to Nicky's great piano work on She's a Rainbow? That's pretty impressive. Including the tempo change it includes?

Which Satanic tapes are you referring to? Thanks.

Back to the orignal post "Bill Wyman: The Stones Never Forgave Me For Leaving" -

Soon after BW left, and up to 2012 or so, before the O2 shows, he had one leitmotiv - he wanted to play the last Stones show with the Stones - one last time... I guess most of us remember that, he stated it various time in the paper.. Don't want to come back, but it would be nice to be with them for the last show.

Well this is not fitted for the Stones agenda... Obviously..

This said, I miss his playing, or maybe his feel.. Listening to Sticky Fingers Live today was a fantastic experience, they are on the top.. really.. One show, one take, I don't know about overdub, but so much perfect playing


But maybe too secured.. I mean, Charlie and Darryl are incredibly locked, that is true.. But how can I put this. Compare Wild horses in 1976, so loose and lazy.. Another epoch.. I certainly no complain.

I was at the Milwaukee show and it was fantastic. Pittsburg, well it was another story, but put rather the blame on the stadium than on the band...

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DandelionPowderman
Listen to Keith hum the piano line on She's A Rainbow to Nicky on the Satanic tapes, Carpet, and then tell me again he hasn't written anything.

Watch the Sitting On A Fence-sequence in CIMD while you're at it.

You gotta stop making things up.

Another command by self appointed 'boss' Dandelion Powderman. It's no more fun posting here because of your behaviour, as if you own the truth. You don't. And you are literally in all threads here all the time.

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ouroux58
I remember seeing Mick crying outside the studio, after a night of recording for dirty work in Paris.

How did you see that?

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nick

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ouroux58
I remember seeing Mick crying outside the studio, after a night of recording for dirty work in Paris.

How did you see that?

He had just seen the final cut of the "Let's Work" video.

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Naturalust

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DandelionPowderman
Listen to Keith hum the piano line on She's A Rainbow to Nicky on the Satanic tapes, Carpet, and then tell me again he hasn't written anything.

Watch the Sitting On A Fence-sequence in CIMD while you're at it.

You gotta stop making things up.

So Keith wrote the melody line to Nicky's great piano work on She's a Rainbow? That's pretty impressive. Including the tempo change it includes?

Which Satanic tapes are you referring to? Thanks.

You must be speaking of the 8 hour plus satanic majesty tapes. I have assumed and have also heard others confirm that Nicky wrote the piano line. It sure sounds like Nicky's handy work to me. Angie was another example.

I confess, I never made it all the way through the tapes. If indeed there is
A passage within these tapes where Keith is humming the Piano line to Nicky then
That would be compelling evidence. However, this could also be Keith reminding
Nicky of how Nicky played the piano line during a previous take.

Well no one other than those present knows for sure. However, there seems to be so many complaints, comming from separate musicians, regarding the Jagger/Richards songwritting process that there must be some truth to some of these allegations.