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Redhotcarpet

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DandelionPowderman
YOU believe Bill wrote it. Even Charlie, who Bill claimed was working it with him says Mick and Keith wrote the song.

Charlie never said Keith wrote the riff. It's not just me who says Bill wrote the riff. And you know it.

And the others are?

Bill also said HE recorded it the day after with the others...

Bill got the gig in 62' because he had a big amp.......not his playing or his songwriting ability- nothing has changed in 53 years.

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Thrylan
Bill got the gig in 62' because he had a big amp.......not his playing or his songwriting ability- nothing has changed in 53 years.

not his playing

no he had been playing for years before them, and was at that time an accomplished bassist, albeit from playing in the lighter pop bands of the day..

So let's break it down:

No Jones, no Stones

Also

No Jagger, no Stones

No Richards, no Stones

No Jagger/Richards, no hits

No Charlie, no swing

No Stu, no boogie

No Bill, no amp...

And my apologies to all the people I just ripped off because I was too lazy to go out and find their posts in this or other threads...

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Turner68

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SweetThing

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Turner68

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DandelionPowderman
YOU believe Bill wrote it. Even Charlie, who Bill claimed was working it with him says Mick and Keith wrote the song.

I think some are trying to cause trouble, no one on this forum can seriously claim to know what happened.

What we do have in the music business is a long history of lawsuits when proper credit is not given: there is an established way to resolve a claim someone might have if they feel they were denied proper credit.

Chuck Berry sued John Lennon for using the line "here come old flatop" in come together and won for g*d's sake - it was a very high profile case from the same era. There was no secret about what to do if you felt someone stole your song.

Anyone who had a problem with the credits for the writing of the Stones songs could have and can come forward and challenge it in a court of law. There is so much money at stake, we have to assume they would if they could.

Anything else is just hot air as far as I'm concerned.

I certainly don't know what actually transpired..of course not. But, no, we don't have to assume someone would sue. People may not sue for a myriad of reasons irrational or otherwise.

You notice Bill Wyman and Mick Taylor have never, I don't believe, used the term "steal", or "stolen" in their respective complaints over the years against the Glimmers. They talked about receiving "credit". Same thing you might say...they're claiming someone stole their credit in other words. Yes, that is implied, but their choice of language in instructive I believe. Sure they wouldn't turn down money I don't think, were it offered, but it seems to me their slant is a bit different. Should we assume their complaints are validated because the Glimmers never sued them for Slander?

Not at all, I prefer to assume there are some things we'll never know for sure, and be OK with it. My only point is that just because someone somewhere once said to some journalist that they wrote part of a jagger/richards song does not make it so, nor does putting it into a book.

We completely agree on that then...but it just gets a bit tortuous to sweep it all away (in our minds/judgement/speculation) even though we can never hope to settle it, when, for example, Mick Taylor says Jagger "promised" him credit or two on IORR and then suddenly he sees the album come out and his credit is missing. Does it prove he "deserved" credit just because Jagger allegedly "promised" it? Maybe not. Did Mick Taylor imagine the conversation or misunderstand it? possibly, somehow I guess. Did Taylor simply lie about that? I doubt it, but who knows. Should he have sued right then and there, or later? I can't say... but its not all down to completely unreliable sources and entirely sketchy sources is all I am saying. We can be pretty sure at this late date Taylor and Wyman (And Jones, etc) are no great songwriters..but they're accomplished, creative and for me at least its not hard to imagine they had a significant moment or two that might've registered in the songwriting dept while in collaboration with Jagger/Richards. Speculation of course but not wildly so I don't think.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-29 23:32 by SweetThing.

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SweetThing

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Turner68

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SweetThing

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Turner68

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DandelionPowderman
YOU believe Bill wrote it. Even Charlie, who Bill claimed was working it with him says Mick and Keith wrote the song.

I think some are trying to cause trouble, no one on this forum can seriously claim to know what happened.

What we do have in the music business is a long history of lawsuits when proper credit is not given: there is an established way to resolve a claim someone might have if they feel they were denied proper credit.

Chuck Berry sued John Lennon for using the line "here come old flatop" in come together and won for g*d's sake - it was a very high profile case from the same era. There was no secret about what to do if you felt someone stole your song.

Anyone who had a problem with the credits for the writing of the Stones songs could have and can come forward and challenge it in a court of law. There is so much money at stake, we have to assume they would if they could.

Anything else is just hot air as far as I'm concerned.

I certainly don't know what actually transpired..of course not. But, no, we don't have to assume someone would sue. People may not sue for a myriad of reasons irrational or otherwise.

You notice Bill Wyman and Mick Taylor have never, I don't believe, used the term "steal", or "stolen" in their respective complaints over the years against the Glimmers. They talked about receiving "credit". Same thing you might say...they're claiming someone stole their credit in other words. Yes, that is implied, but their choice of language in instructive I believe. Sure they wouldn't turn down money I don't think, were it offered, but it seems to me their slant is a bit different. Should we assume their complaints are validated because the Glimmers never sued them for Slander?

Not at all, I prefer to assume there are some things we'll never know for sure, and be OK with it. My only point is that just because someone somewhere once said to some journalist that they wrote part of a jagger/richards song does not make it so, nor does putting it into a book.

We completely agree on that then...but it just gets a bit tortuous to sweep it all away (in our minds/judgement/speculation) even though we can never hope to settle it, when, for example, Mick Taylor says Jagger "promised" him credit or two on IORR and then suddenly he sees the album come out and his credit is missing. Does it prove he "deserved" credit just because Jagger allegedly "promised" it? Maybe not. Did Mick Taylor imagine the conversation or misunderstand it? possibly, somehow I guess. Did Taylor simply lie about that? I doubt it, but who knows. Should he have sued right then and there, or later? I can't say... but its not all down to completely unreliable sources and entirely sketchy sources is all I am saying. We can be pretty sure at this late date Taylor and Wyman (And Jones, etc) are no great songwriters..but they're accomplished, creative and for me at least its not hard to imagine they had a significant moment or two that might've registered in the songwriting dept while in collaboration with Jagger/Richards. Speculation of course but not wildly so I don't think.

i think *everyone* involved with recording a song probably has meaningful input into it, indeed, i assume that they do. for example, charlie!

people get hung up on the topic of songwriting credit as if it's the only way to recognize a musician for having an original idea. look at the stones version of "not fade away" .... none of them get songwriting credit for it, it was already a song! but look at the creativity and innovation on it. not getting songwriting credit doesn't mean you're a mindless drone with no creative vision or input. just like getting songwriting credit doesn't mean you came up with every single idea that was used in the studio.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-30 00:10 by Turner68.

Proof exists ... what has Bill ever written that would remotely resemble JJF? Nothing. Keith, on the other hand ... you've got Satisfaction, SFM, etc. etc. Case closed.

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LeonidP
Proof exists ... what has Bill ever written that would remotely resemble JJF? Nothing. Keith, on the other hand ... you've got Satisfaction, SFM, etc. etc. Case closed.

Case closed? No it was closed after Bill gave a pretty detailed and yes, trustworthy account of how he, Brian and Charlie were jamming in the studio, waiting for Mick and Keith and how they loved that riff and used it in their song. Bill didn't make that up. I can't believe we're actually suggesting that.
I think some fans just don't understand the dynamics of a band or a production team. Especially if you're top of the bill and depending on the goodwill of the singer and his closest coworker within that team.

And Satisfaction is of course based on Nowhere to run. They've used others and they've written and produced themselves and with the help of others. Nothing new in that. One could argue that neither Mick or Keith has come up with anything as good as JJF on their own. What, Take it so hard? And what Bill said in that interview is just that. He was on his own. If Keith or Mick had an idea, chords maybe with some words, the band and the producer would develop that.

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Thrylan
Bill got the gig in 62' because he had a big amp.......not his playing or his songwriting ability- nothing has changed in 53 years.

Keith got the gig because he was Micks hang around. Nothing has changed in 65 years.

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Redhotcarpet

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LeonidP
Proof exists ... what has Bill ever written that would remotely resemble JJF? Nothing. Keith, on the other hand ... you've got Satisfaction, SFM, etc. etc. Case closed.

Case closed? No it was closed after Bill gave a pretty detailed and yes, trustworthy account of how he, Brian and Charlie were jamming in the studio, waiting for Mick and Keith and how they loved that riff and used it in their song. Bill didn't make that up....

He might not be remembering correctly, but either way, they gave him writing credit for In Another Land, why would they deny it here. Again, take songs Keith has been known to write, and those that Bill has been known to write. So who wrote JJF? Again, case closed.

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LeonidP

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Redhotcarpet

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LeonidP
Proof exists ... what has Bill ever written that would remotely resemble JJF? Nothing. Keith, on the other hand ... you've got Satisfaction, SFM, etc. etc. Case closed.

Case closed? No it was closed after Bill gave a pretty detailed and yes, trustworthy account of how he, Brian and Charlie were jamming in the studio, waiting for Mick and Keith and how they loved that riff and used it in their song. Bill didn't make that up....

He might not be remembering correctly, but either way, they gave him writing credit for In Another Land, why would they deny it here. Again, take songs Keith has been known to write, and those that Bill has been known to write. So who wrote JJF? Again, case closed.

It's in his head. It's not worth it...

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LeonidP

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Redhotcarpet

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LeonidP
Proof exists ... what has Bill ever written that would remotely resemble JJF? Nothing. Keith, on the other hand ... you've got Satisfaction, SFM, etc. etc. Case closed.

Case closed? No it was closed after Bill gave a pretty detailed and yes, trustworthy account of how he, Brian and Charlie were jamming in the studio, waiting for Mick and Keith and how they loved that riff and used it in their song. Bill didn't make that up....

He might not be remembering correctly, but either way, they gave him writing credit for In Another Land, why would they deny it here. Again, take songs Keith has been known to write, and those that Bill has been known to write. So who wrote JJF? Again, case closed.

Yes case closed. Bill wrote the riff, Keith played it on guitar, Mick and Keith wrote the song (lyrics and chords). They had to give credit for the pointless In another land because it was a pointless Wyman song on a pointless album. JJF was a comeback hit. Of course they won't credit him for the riff because he didn't write the song. He wrote the riff. And the songs always said Jagger/Richards.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-30 01:47 by Redhotcarpet.

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DandelionPowderman

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LeonidP

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Redhotcarpet

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LeonidP
Proof exists ... what has Bill ever written that would remotely resemble JJF? Nothing. Keith, on the other hand ... you've got Satisfaction, SFM, etc. etc. Case closed.

Case closed? No it was closed after Bill gave a pretty detailed and yes, trustworthy account of how he, Brian and Charlie were jamming in the studio, waiting for Mick and Keith and how they loved that riff and used it in their song. Bill didn't make that up....

He might not be remembering correctly, but either way, they gave him writing credit for In Another Land, why would they deny it here. Again, take songs Keith has been known to write, and those that Bill has been known to write. So who wrote JJF? Again, case closed.

It's in his head. It's not worth it...

True enough, if one is going to dismiss any evidence to the contrary, not much more to discuss. Still ....

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Redhotcarpet

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LeonidP

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Redhotcarpet

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LeonidP
Proof exists ... what has Bill ever written that would remotely resemble JJF? Nothing. Keith, on the other hand ... you've got Satisfaction, SFM, etc. etc. Case closed.

Case closed? No it was closed after Bill gave a pretty detailed and yes, trustworthy account of how he, Brian and Charlie were jamming in the studio, waiting for Mick and Keith and how they loved that riff and used it in their song. Bill didn't make that up....

He might not be remembering correctly, but either way, they gave him writing credit for In Another Land, why would they deny it here. Again, take songs Keith has been known to write, and those that Bill has been known to write. So who wrote JJF? Again, case closed.

Yes case closed. Bill wrote the riff, Keith played it on guitar, Mick and Keith wrote the song (lyrics and chords). They had to give credit for the pointless In another land because it was a pointless Wyman song on a pointless album. JJF was a comeback hit. Of course they won't credit him for the riff because he didn't write the song. He wrote the riff. And the songs always said Jagger/Richards.

LOL, it wasn't a comeback hit at the time the credits were listed. Nice argument there.

I enjoy both Mick and Keith's solo stuff for the most part but Bill's really never clicked for me. I bought Monkey Grip out of loyalty but stopped playing it soon after. Bill may have been a Stone, but he was a junior partner at best. He was older, married, an "Ernie", as they called him, and easily replaced (or so they thought). Has Bill ever related any experiences where he tried to penetrate the "closed shop" and co-write a tune or two? Speaking for myself, if my band was being filmed for a major motion picture and they told me I had to play percussion instead of my instrument, while the guitarist totally took over my role in the band, I'd have told them to go eff themselves. I'd love to know how Bill took it when they told him his services weren't required - in front of the world, recorded for posterity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-30 01:58 by bleedingman.

Actually, pros like Bill has the ability to put what's best for the song before their own egos. If there is a perfect take, and the song really swings before he becomes involved, he won't tear down the wall to play on it.

Same with MJ, KR, Stu etc.

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DandelionPowderman
Actually, pros like Bill has the ability to put what's best for the song before their own egos. If there is a perfect take, and the song really swings before he becomes involved, he won't tear down the wall to play on it.

Same with MJ, KR, Stu etc.

You are correct (as usual!) but I'd still like to hear Bill's take. I have read comments where he expressed frustration at his omission from various tracks and speculated that they kept him because they needed him for live performances.

Bill ended up on exactly half of Exile (despite his claims). The question for me is: Were any of his original bass tracks removed later in LA to make way for an "improved" bass track by Taylor or Keith? Perhaps he remembers playing on more tracks because he did, but his part was later replaced?

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LeonidP
Proof exists ... what has Bill ever written that would remotely resemble JJF? Nothing. Keith, on the other hand ... you've got Satisfaction, SFM, etc. etc. Case closed.

I guess its not too late then to slap a co-credit for Brian Jones onto Ruby Tuesday?

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SweetThing

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LeonidP
Proof exists ... what has Bill ever written that would remotely resemble JJF? Nothing. Keith, on the other hand ... you've got Satisfaction, SFM, etc. etc. Case closed.

I guess its not too late then to slap a co-credit for Brian Jones onto Ruby Tuesday?

Having good ideas for a track in a studio is a musician's job; not grounds for a writing credit.

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Turner68

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SweetThing

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LeonidP
Proof exists ... what has Bill ever written that would remotely resemble JJF? Nothing. Keith, on the other hand ... you've got Satisfaction, SFM, etc. etc. Case closed.

I guess its not too late then to slap a co-credit for Brian Jones onto Ruby Tuesday?

Having good ideas for a track in a studio is a musician's job; not grounds for a writing credit.

Uh oh
I'm making WAY more money than I should be...

Sonofagun

Thank you Bill for having the plaque modified. You are and remain a true Stone and those of us who truly understand the band, will never forget your contributions.

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Brstonesfan
Thank you Bill for having the plaque modified. You are and remain a true Stone and those of us who truly understand the band, will never forget your contributions.

I agree.

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Redhotcarpet
What a bunch of nice guys Mick is. And Keith. Geez.

who really knows how bad these guys were... 2 sides to every story. but i think keith is just talking about guitar stuff here.it is probably actually meant as a compliment.. that is what we all do "take" learn, cooder would be the first to admit that he "took" from the old blues players... everything has roots

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Redhotcarpet
And what Bill said in that interview is just that. He was on his own. If Keith or Mick had an idea, chords maybe with some words, the band and the producer would develop that.

Yes, there are plenty of Jagger-Richard(s) songs, even classic recordings, that are nothing special as songs. It's the production and performance that makes them great. "Street Fighting Man" comes to mind. It's not a particularly clever or catchy tune, but the recording was built over time, layer by layer, into something special. Imagine if one of Bill's ideas had received the same treatment.

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blivet

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Redhotcarpet
And what Bill said in that interview is just that. He was on his own. If Keith or Mick had an idea, chords maybe with some words, the band and the producer would develop that.

Yes, there are plenty of Jagger-Richard(s) songs, even classic recordings, that are nothing special as songs. It's the production and performance that makes them great. "Street Fighting Man" comes to mind. It's not a particularly clever or catchy tune, but the recording was built over time, layer by layer, into something special. Imagine if one of Bill's ideas had received the same treatment.

this is an age-old issue .... i'm sure you've heard the story of how simon & garfunkel's song "sound of silence" was a bomb and then a producer had the idea of adding an electronic guitar and the song became huge and made the duo's career.... he didn't get a songwriting credit either: he didn't write the song, but it was his touch that made it a hit. i'm sure somewhere someone else being produced by the same guy would whine "why can't you do that for my song".

life isn't always fair. i'm glad bill wyman has gotten over it pretty well - his complaining about credit is now kept to a minimal, and when he can make things more fair (e.g. the plaque) he does something about it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-30 06:35 by Turner68.

Why isn't SFM anything special as a song?

A unique sound, clever and pulse-taking lyrics and a melody that everyone remembers...

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71Tele
Bill ended up on exactly half of Exile (despite his claims). The question for me is: Were any of his original bass tracks removed later in LA to make way for an "improved" bass track by Taylor or Keith? Perhaps he remembers playing on more tracks because he did, but his part was later replaced?

There could be bits of his takes left on some songs. I believe he is right about that. ADTL, for instance.

So you guys think Bill lied about the JJF riff. And repeated that lie for almost 30 years?

He wrote it in his book. The only repeating is you reading it too many times.

Bill probably played something on that organ that wound up on the record, I don't doubt that. But I strongly doubt that he wrote the song or the main riff on organ. And he didn't record it with the others the day after, like he said. Can't you see that there are several elements of his story that aren't true?

You read what you wanna read, apparently...