Tell Me :
Talk
That's a good database! Verifies my experience that the Brussels Affair archive release (DR score 11) was more listenable than Some Girls Live In Texas (DR score 7) and LA Friday (DR score 7) releases.
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year/desc?artist=rolling+stones
Recent Stones vinyl releases seem to have reasonable dynamic range - even LA Friday, which is better than the digital release, and contrary to some claims here that recent Stones vinyl is as brickwalled as the digital releases.
The best recent albums for dynamic range seem to be the ABKCO releases. I remember being amazed at the 2002 ABKCO Beggars Banquet remaster. So ABKCO seem to know what they're doing.
Also just noticed the SACD versions of later Stones albums which appear to have good dynamic range. It's a shame that post-1971 Stones CDs and digital downloads can't have the same good dynamic range as the SACDs.
I expect there's some clever marketing here then, so that audiophiles will feel driven buy the SACDs and vinyl.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-16 21:33 by WeLoveYou.
Yeah, all really good points/observations. I too wish the the Stones would recognize the value of high dynamic range and all releases would be treated as such.
But as I've said before, it's kind of humorous to see that the 1986 Dirty Work release has the highest DR of any Stones record! Can't polish a turd. The Universal remasters are notoriously bad with the 2009 Still Life remaster worst on the list.
(you can click the column headings and the database will sort by increasing or decreasing values in that column)
peace
It's the TV special plus the outtakes.
I think it's slightly misleading to talk about rehearsals - they performed for just the cameras,
and that's where most of the footage is from. But there are also some shots from the back of the room
that were filmed with the audience present. Keith was dressed differently for those bits -
in the "with-audience" shots he's got a red Nudie shirt on, and in the "no audience" footage he's got a white shirt on
- well, partly on, anyway! :E The Mick also changed clothes but the difference is less visible.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-17 13:30 by with sssoul.
Is that knackig as in Knackwurst? You can almost hear the knack sound. I don't think the English have a similar word..I guess the closest would be cracking?
But the Dutch "Klabastert op de Beesters" sounds funny, too, in German ears ... So we should fill in some Dutch words in our statements, too ... especially against the background that are many Dutch friends on this board ...
I Got The Blues (track #3) is a hybrid of alternate take 1 (first part) and alternate take 2 (end part)
Bitch tracks #7 and #11/alternate take 1
are identical to my ears. Although different track-lengths due to applause...
N
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-24 17:38 by NeddieFlanders.
He and Bill seem to be intently focussed on pretending they don't know any of the disgraceful wastrels on that stage with them :E
The CD format does provide the ability to include great dynamic range in recordings, that is a fact. It can easily encompass all the inherent dynamics of the originally recorded music whether symphonic or rock and roll.
The problem is that the loudness war supporters compress this dynamic range in order to turn the whole recording up and give it the appearance of being louder than music which has not had such treatment. The theory being that the louder music will sound better and have a bigger impact. It does work to that effect initially but the trade off is that it fatigues the ear and destroys the true dynamics of a song, reducing one of the important elements which the musicians included in the original recording.
Ironically, since most downloaded and streamed music is "normalized" to make all the songs sound the same relative volume, the end effect is just a recording with reduced dynamic range. Most players like iTunes have this feature built in so you don't have huge volume differences when listening to a playlist, and almost all streaming services are using this normalization.
So basically the whole highly compressed thing has become a huge waste of time and effort and does nothing but take away from the listeners experience, not adding impact like it was originally designed to do. Time for the practice to go away.
It really doesn't have anything to do with listening on earphones through portable devices or helping with the marketing of CD's and downloads. The process became popular long after CD's had become the format of choice and portable device music is often still normalilzed when you first download it (from iTunes for example).
peace
This has nothing of Taylo vs. Wood, because it's obvious that Taylor is the better guitarist of the two. But as for this issue, it's a matter of taste and being familiar with.
Oops, you did it again, kleermarker!
Taylor wood have made Start Me Up or Shattered suck.
See what I did?
Yes, you did it. But I guess he would have made them still interesting.
I will, but it doesn't say anything at all of cours, for countless reasons you know just as well as I do. Where Ron Wood there if Taylor didn't leave, for instance? Just to help you on your way.
Das ist kvasch!
Well done Kevin and thanks! This way Taylor sounds more integrated than before.
So can we expect a remix of the new Leeds as well (except Love In Vain and maybe a couple of others)?
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
WeLoveYou
()
Date: June 16, 2015 21:29
Quote
NaturalustQuote
Poetry
A noob question - how can I calculate DR and what does it mean? I am only familliar with the spectral analysis to decide whether a file is lossless.
The DR is the dynamic range of the recording. The difference in volume between the quietest sounds and the loudest sounds on the record. It is different for each track and the overall DR rating for an album is an average of the DR values for each track.
When the DR is low, the overall volume of the entire record can be increased without clipping (too high a level causing distortion) to make it sound louder...ie) the loudness wars. When the dynamic range is high, for instance loud drum hits and quiet guitar parts, you can't really turn the whole thing up without the drums distorting.
Our ears appreciate recordings with higher dynamic range, they sound more natural and cause less fatigue because of the quieter sections. Of course the amount of natural DR created in making the music varies greatly with symphonic music generally having twice as much as rock and roll to start with.
It's really a relative concept and louder is only perceived when compared to other music at the same volume setting on your playback system. We can of course turn the music up ourselves if we want it louder but marketers of music decided they wanted their tracks to stand out in the crowd and the results have been lower DR and records that are unnaturally loud to start with.
To measure DR accurately you need some computer tools to analyze the waveforms and determine the loudest and quietest signals present in the audio. They are pretty common these days in audio editing software like Pro Tools, and even cheaper and free ones available on the internet.
I could go deep on the subject but I hope that answers your question. I prefer music with a higher dynamic range. If I want to hear it louder I can always turn it up myself.
If you want to know how your music rates on the DR scale this is the best database I have found.
[dr.loudness-war.info]
peace
That's a good database! Verifies my experience that the Brussels Affair archive release (DR score 11) was more listenable than Some Girls Live In Texas (DR score 7) and LA Friday (DR score 7) releases.
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year/desc?artist=rolling+stones
Recent Stones vinyl releases seem to have reasonable dynamic range - even LA Friday, which is better than the digital release, and contrary to some claims here that recent Stones vinyl is as brickwalled as the digital releases.
The best recent albums for dynamic range seem to be the ABKCO releases. I remember being amazed at the 2002 ABKCO Beggars Banquet remaster. So ABKCO seem to know what they're doing.
Also just noticed the SACD versions of later Stones albums which appear to have good dynamic range. It's a shame that post-1971 Stones CDs and digital downloads can't have the same good dynamic range as the SACDs.
I expect there's some clever marketing here then, so that audiophiles will feel driven buy the SACDs and vinyl.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-16 21:33 by WeLoveYou.
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: June 17, 2015 00:14
Quote
WeLoveYou
That's a good database! Verifies my experience that the Brussels Affair archive release (DR score 11) was more listenable than Some Girls Live In Texas (DR score 7) and LA Friday (DR score 7) releases.
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year/desc?artist=rolling+stones
Recent Stones vinyl releases seem to have reasonable dynamic range - even LA Friday, which is better than the digital release, and contrary to some claims here that recent Stones vinyl is as brickwalled as the digital releases.
The best recent albums for dynamic range seem to be the ABKCO releases. I remember being amazed at the 2002 ABKCO Beggars Banquet remaster. So ABKCO seem to know what they're doing.
Also just noticed the SACD versions of later Stones albums which appear to have good dynamic range. It's a shame that post-1971 Stones CDs and digital downloads can't have the same good dynamic range as the SACDs.
I expect there's some clever marketing here then, so that audiophiles will feel driven buy the SACDs and vinyl.
Yeah, all really good points/observations. I too wish the the Stones would recognize the value of high dynamic range and all releases would be treated as such.
But as I've said before, it's kind of humorous to see that the 1986 Dirty Work release has the highest DR of any Stones record! Can't polish a turd. The Universal remasters are notoriously bad with the 2009 Still Life remaster worst on the list.
(you can click the column headings and the database will sort by increasing or decreasing values in that column)
peace
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
hockenheim95
()
Date: June 17, 2015 03:08
so they really edited out the Harold Pendleton Junior line? Shit....
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
SharksWillCry
()
Date: June 17, 2015 04:00
Also looks like A Bigger Bang CD and LP are somewhat different.
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: June 17, 2015 12:07
Quote
franzk
So where the video comes from? The show? The rehearsals? Is the DVD/Blu-ray video the same as 1971 TV special or different?
It's the TV special plus the outtakes.
I think it's slightly misleading to talk about rehearsals - they performed for just the cameras,
and that's where most of the footage is from. But there are also some shots from the back of the room
that were filmed with the audience present. Keith was dressed differently for those bits -
in the "with-audience" shots he's got a red Nudie shirt on, and in the "no audience" footage he's got a white shirt on
- well, partly on, anyway! :E The Mick also changed clothes but the difference is less visible.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-17 13:30 by with sssoul.
Re: 
Re: Marquee 71
Re: Marquee 71 Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: June 17, 2015 12:32
Quote
muenkeQuote
kleermakerQuote
muenke
To my ears the Marquee-CD sounds better than the dvd ... Perhaps I will belong to a minority, because I eben like these so called brickwalled mixes, they sound fresh and "modern", in German: "knackig"!
Knackig
Ha! You are welcome, Kleermarker!
Is that knackig as in Knackwurst? You can almost hear the knack sound. I don't think the English have a similar word..I guess the closest would be cracking?
Re: Re: Marquee 71
Re: Marquee 71 Posted by:
RobertJohnson
()
Date: June 17, 2015 13:14
Quote
Silver DaggerQuote
muenkeQuote
kleermakerQuote
muenke
To my ears the Marquee-CD sounds better than the dvd ... Perhaps I will belong to a minority, because I eben like these so called brickwalled mixes, they sound fresh and "modern", in German: "knackig"!
Knackig
Ha! You are welcome, Kleermarker!
Is that knackig as in Knackwurst? You can almost hear the knack sound. I don't think the English have a similar word..I guess the closest would be cracking?
But the Dutch "Klabastert op de Beesters" sounds funny, too, in German ears ... So we should fill in some Dutch words in our statements, too ... especially against the background that are many Dutch friends on this board ...
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
djgab
()
Date: June 17, 2015 13:33
The welovyou sentence "I expect there's some clever marketing here then, so that audiophiles will feel driven buy the SACDs and vinyl." rings a bell in my mind.
There is something I don't understand in this loudness war story.
The CD where initially presented in the 80s as better for ... dynamics ! It was one the biggest saler argument for classical music and in particular for symphony. You can hear the whole orchestra dynamic from pianissimo to fortissimo. It might explain the Dirty Work value ? With time and dust, very "small" sound levels are covered by scratchs in LP. And they did sell very light LP at that time on order to drive people to CD which where twice expensive.
I think the loudness has something to do with download and listening to music with portable device through earphone. And CD and download are maybe seen as similar by cleaver market boy ?
There is something I don't understand in this loudness war story.
The CD where initially presented in the 80s as better for ... dynamics ! It was one the biggest saler argument for classical music and in particular for symphony. You can hear the whole orchestra dynamic from pianissimo to fortissimo. It might explain the Dirty Work value ? With time and dust, very "small" sound levels are covered by scratchs in LP. And they did sell very light LP at that time on order to drive people to CD which where twice expensive.
I think the loudness has something to do with download and listening to music with portable device through earphone. And CD and download are maybe seen as similar by cleaver market boy ?
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
NeddieFlanders
()
Date: June 17, 2015 15:27
Quote
LiveAtHidepark
I Got The Blues - alternate take 2 (step 10) is NEW
Bitch - alternate take 1 (step 11) is the SAME as the TV show version (step 7)
I Got The Blues (track #3) is a hybrid of alternate take 1 (first part) and alternate take 2 (end part)
Bitch tracks #7 and #11/alternate take 1
are identical to my ears. Although different track-lengths due to applause...
N
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-24 17:38 by NeddieFlanders.
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
Mr.D
()
Date: June 18, 2015 14:28
Just got the Japanese release yesterday with Brussels as a bonus, the sound is spectacular! If any of you use Dropbox send me your email addy and I'll give you a free treat...
If any of you use Dropbox send me your email addy and I'll give you a free treat...Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
frankotero
()
Date: June 18, 2015 19:51
Just played the DVD and have to say it's great, both video and audio. Only thing that's kind of off for me is realizing how little interaction there was with Mick T, guess I never thought of it before. Anyhow, a very nice look into the past. Now onto Hyde Park '69?
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: June 18, 2015 20:46
Quote
frankotero
Only thing that's kind of off for me is realizing how little interaction there was with Mick T
He and Bill seem to be intently focussed on pretending they don't know any of the disgraceful wastrels on that stage with them :E
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: June 18, 2015 21:12
Quote
djgab
There is something I don't understand in this loudness war story.
The CD where initially presented in the 80s as better for ... dynamics ! It was one the biggest saler argument for classical music and in particular for symphony. You can hear the whole orchestra dynamic from pianissimo to fortissimo. It might explain the Dirty Work value ? With time and dust, very "small" sound levels are covered by scratchs in LP. And they did sell very light LP at that time on order to drive people to CD which where twice expensive.
I think the loudness has something to do with download and listening to music with portable device through earphone. And CD and download are maybe seen as similar by cleaver market boy ?
The CD format does provide the ability to include great dynamic range in recordings, that is a fact. It can easily encompass all the inherent dynamics of the originally recorded music whether symphonic or rock and roll.
The problem is that the loudness war supporters compress this dynamic range in order to turn the whole recording up and give it the appearance of being louder than music which has not had such treatment. The theory being that the louder music will sound better and have a bigger impact. It does work to that effect initially but the trade off is that it fatigues the ear and destroys the true dynamics of a song, reducing one of the important elements which the musicians included in the original recording.
Ironically, since most downloaded and streamed music is "normalized" to make all the songs sound the same relative volume, the end effect is just a recording with reduced dynamic range. Most players like iTunes have this feature built in so you don't have huge volume differences when listening to a playlist, and almost all streaming services are using this normalization.
So basically the whole highly compressed thing has become a huge waste of time and effort and does nothing but take away from the listeners experience, not adding impact like it was originally designed to do. Time for the practice to go away.
It really doesn't have anything to do with listening on earphones through portable devices or helping with the marketing of CD's and downloads. The process became popular long after CD's had become the format of choice and portable device music is often still normalilzed when you first download it (from iTunes for example).
peace
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
Rank Stranger
()
Date: June 18, 2015 21:49
These highly compressed/brickwalled releases really make me angry and sad.
I cannot listen to this stuff for any longer than ~ ten minutes.
Mind you, I can listen to rock music at loud volume, ask my neighbors.
But this brickwalled releases get on my nerves, even when I listen to this with low volume. Many songs I enjoy live from the interplay between low and high volume,
these "contrasts" make the song, the band builds up some sort of tension, and that's among other things that makes it interesting listening.
It's all gone now, all I hear is noise; might as well listen to a Boing/Airbus.
I really like to have an intimate talk with the person, who is responsible for this!
They even increased the volume on the stuff fromm Brussel, that comes with the Japanes Marquee release! As if these weren't loud enough already!!
Being no native speaker, I'm a bit at loss for the right words here, sorry!
But maybe this pic says it all, it shows you "Stray Cat Blues" from the Roundhouse, and from MSG 69; don't you dare to ask which is which!
I cannot listen to this stuff for any longer than ~ ten minutes.
Mind you, I can listen to rock music at loud volume, ask my neighbors.
But this brickwalled releases get on my nerves, even when I listen to this with low volume. Many songs I enjoy live from the interplay between low and high volume,
these "contrasts" make the song, the band builds up some sort of tension, and that's among other things that makes it interesting listening.
It's all gone now, all I hear is noise; might as well listen to a Boing/Airbus.
I really like to have an intimate talk with the person, who is responsible for this!
They even increased the volume on the stuff fromm Brussel, that comes with the Japanes Marquee release! As if these weren't loud enough already!!
Being no native speaker, I'm a bit at loss for the right words here, sorry!
But maybe this pic says it all, it shows you "Stray Cat Blues" from the Roundhouse, and from MSG 69; don't you dare to ask which is which!
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
Munichhilton
()
Date: June 18, 2015 21:54
I agree Rank...
It's been such a long wait for them to open the vaults. When they do they compress and brick it. It's like a hoarder who will only trade you 128 MP3s from his rare stuff...
The Stones are being the Freezer equivalent
It's been such a long wait for them to open the vaults. When they do they compress and brick it. It's like a hoarder who will only trade you 128 MP3s from his rare stuff...
The Stones are being the Freezer equivalent
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
muenke
()
Date: June 18, 2015 22:23
This has bit of Taylor vs Wood ... I grew up in the 80s and the loudness-key on my Onkyo-Receiver was my best friend, loved it, it was always "on". And now I really like those loudness/brickwalled-mixes ... May this be a matter of taste? Or did I grew up in the wrong decade?
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: June 18, 2015 22:28
Quote
muenke
This has bit of Taylor vs Wood ... I grew up in the 80s and the loudness-key on my Onkyo-Receiver was my best friend, loved it, it was always "on". And now I really like those loudness/brickwalled-mixes ... May this be a matter of taste? Or did I grew up in the wrong decade?
This has nothing of Taylo vs. Wood, because it's obvious that Taylor is the better guitarist of the two. But as for this issue, it's a matter of taste and being familiar with.
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
muenke
()
Date: June 18, 2015 22:33
Quote
kleermakerQuote
muenke
This has bit of Taylor vs Wood ... I grew up in the 80s and the loudness-key on my Onkyo-Receiver was my best friend, loved it, it was always "on". And now I really like those loudness/brickwalled-mixes ... May this be a matter of taste? Or did I grew up in the wrong decade?
This has nothing of Taylo vs. Wood, because it's obvious that Taylor is the better guitarist of the two. But as for this issue, it's a matter of taste and being familiar with.
Oops, you did it again, kleermarker!
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
Munichhilton
()
Date: June 18, 2015 22:33
Quote
kleermakerQuote
muenke
This has bit of Taylor vs Wood ... I grew up in the 80s and the loudness-key on my Onkyo-Receiver was my best friend, loved it, it was always "on". And now I really like those loudness/brickwalled-mixes ... May this be a matter of taste? Or did I grew up in the wrong decade?
This has nothing of Taylo vs. Wood, because it's obvious that Taylor is the better guitarist of the two. But as for this issue, it's a matter of taste and being familiar with.
Taylor wood have made Start Me Up or Shattered suck.
See what I did?
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: June 18, 2015 22:36
Quote
MunichhiltonQuote
kleermakerQuote
muenke
This has bit of Taylor vs Wood ... I grew up in the 80s and the loudness-key on my Onkyo-Receiver was my best friend, loved it, it was always "on". And now I really like those loudness/brickwalled-mixes ... May this be a matter of taste? Or did I grew up in the wrong decade?
This has nothing of Taylo vs. Wood, because it's obvious that Taylor is the better guitarist of the two. But as for this issue, it's a matter of taste and being familiar with.
Taylor wood have made Start Me Up or Shattered suck.
See what I did?
Yes, you did it. But I guess he would have made them still interesting.
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: June 19, 2015 02:05
You don't have to guess for SMU. Just listen to KC 81.
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: June 19, 2015 14:14
Quote
DandelionPowderman
You don't have to guess for SMU. Just listen to KC 81.
I will, but it doesn't say anything at all of cours, for countless reasons you know just as well as I do. Where Ron Wood there if Taylor didn't leave, for instance? Just to help you on your way.
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
frankotero
()
Date: June 19, 2015 19:26
Watched the DVD again today, this time on SD Bluray. F@ck yeah! This is The Stones I want to see and hear is my first reaction. Next, I want to say I'm so excited I will buy the vinyl too because I'm so impressed. This is a return to the mania for me as I've been disappointed for quite a while now. Funny how 37 minutes (or so) of music can rock me to the core. By the way this is the first time I can remember watching a Music DVD 2 days in a row. Hope there is more of this coming. Thanks to everyone involved for making this happen.
-
Posted by:
midnrambler
()
Date: June 20, 2015 12:27
-
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-27 13:42 by midnrambler.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-27 13:42 by midnrambler.
Re: Re: Marquee 71
Re: Marquee 71 Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: June 20, 2015 16:23
Quote
Silver DaggerQuote
muenkeQuote
kleermakerQuote
muenke
To my ears the Marquee-CD sounds better than the dvd ... Perhaps I will belong to a minority, because I eben like these so called brickwalled mixes, they sound fresh and "modern", in German: "knackig"!
Knackig
Ha! You are welcome, Kleermarker!
Is that knackig as in Knackwurst? You can almost hear the knack sound. I don't think the English have a similar word..I guess the closest would be cracking?
Das ist kvasch!
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: June 20, 2015 22:34
Well done Kevin and thanks! This way Taylor sounds more integrated than before.
So can we expect a remix of the new Leeds as well (except Love In Vain and maybe a couple of others)?
Re: Marquee 71
Posted by:
frankotero
()
Date: June 20, 2015 22:35
Got the Marquee LP today. I'm just loving this release. Not too sure on the brickwalling with this LP as I have to turn the dial up a little more than usual with other recent albums. Hope this means something positive.
Not too sure on the brickwalling with this LP as I have to turn the dial up a little more than usual with other recent albums. Hope this means something positive.Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
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