This is 2016. White Room. Incredible playing by MT.

[youtu.be]

It's been a few years since Taylor cameo, but inspired by this thread I picked up random Taylor performances from those times. Was he really so bad that is claimed here? Not that I recall, but I let the youtube to refresh my memories.

"Sway" from Chicago. That's closest to the so called three-guitar-attack Keith - and probably many of us - were fancing about when Taylor re-joined. Well, the whole thing is such a big mess that probably that wasn't such a great idea after all. It's not much played number but seemingly Keith and Ronnie combo is such a routine machine that they probably quite automatically find each other and the roles for both even if the number in question is not very familiar (that is: Keith plays what he wants/can and Ronnie fills anything else). Add there Taylor and what we have is a total mess no one sounds like knowing what to do... Ronnie plays the first slide solo (probably for anyone to ask 'why on earth') and Taylor the outro solo. Pretty basic stuff for him, but I think works very well in the context. Short and sweet, but even it tells rather clearly why he is the best lead guitarist the band ever have had.

"Knocking" from Glastenbury. Before getting to the Taylor part, one thing that stood out: Mick Jagger doesn't seem to be into the song at all. He sounds and moves like no hint what to do. Like some poor Jagger-clone doing karaoke. Very rarely one can witness such an uncomfortable Jagger. But that's nothing to do with Taylor (actually Jagger starts to look more comfortable when the jam part starts and him just digging along). But that Taylor part - bloody hell that guy does it again. Such a lyrical, unique touch and imagination. I have never been any big fan of guitar solos, especially extended ones, but what Taylor dude does there, goes straight to my heart and I cannot help but being thrilled and follow the story that he, in the very front of my eyes, writes there. I can see he has not any longer the fluidity he once has, but it doesn't matter: I am not there waiting for some new world record in guitar technique to happen but just enjoying the pure joy of musicality with full of fresh improvisation. The dude's licks, runs and phrases can be copied, like anyone's, but his pure talent not.

Anyway, I think the limited role the Stones gave to him probably occured from that of necessity. There was no energy or will to really integrate him to inner dynamics of the band. So forget any 'three-guitar-attack'. The band has such a long history of the model they have now, and pragmatically speaking, there was no reason to change anything since it had proved to work very well. So it was natural, I think, giving Taylor just a cameo, a kind of isolated role in which he could most freely show his most famous skills, playing fantastic solo guitar, and not 'messing' with normal arrangements . "Rambler" and occasionally "Knocking" being perfect for that.

It could be, like suggested here, that there might be a dilemma in professionalism between the band and Taylor. But I don't see that as Taylor being 'unrehearsed' or something, but more like that of their working habits and attitude towards performing being different. The Stones, as I pointed above, have a very strict attitude to arrangements (goes along with the lights, and other show side of the concert, like Jagger's choreography). Their thing since 1989 has been that of the show being very much orchestrated and strictly programmed, with no room for surprises. It is so well organized that it even allows some shortcomings from the guitar department (most notable is the unfortunate decline of Keith). But Taylor naturally seem to possess that kind of 'here and now' blues man mentality, trusting very much on spontaneity (that his skills allow), free arrangements, in which the guitars having a leading role, and so. So one could say that he has an element of 'danger' the Rolling Stones a long time ago polished from their sound.

- Doxa



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-25 17:56 by Doxa.

Here’s how Taylor looks at performing, I can relate!







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-25 17:58 by TravelinMan.

Here’s with the Dead:

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Doxa

It could be, like suggested here, that there might be a dilemma in professionalism between the band and Taylor. But I don't see that as Taylor being 'unrehearsed' or something, but more like that of their working habits and attitude towards performing being different. The Stones, as I pointed above, have a very strict attitude to arrangements (goes along with the lights, and other show side of the concert, like Jagger's choreography). Their thing since 1989 has been that of the show being very much orchestrated and strictly programmed, with no room for surprises. It is so well organized that it even allows some shortcomings from the guitar department (most notable is the unfortunate decline of Keith). But Taylor naturally seem to possess that kind of 'here and now' blues man mentality, trusting very much on spontaneity (that his skills allow), free arrangements, in which the guitars having a leading role, and so. So one could say that he has an element of 'danger' the Rolling Stones a long time ago polished from their sound.

- Doxa

That's probably the most realistic view on the subject.

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PhillyFAN
This is 2016. White Room. Incredible playing by MT.

[youtu.be]

Very interesting contrast to the Clapton/Ronnie version at the Ginger Baker tribute.
[www.youtube.com]

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Mathijs
I have seen the Stones with Taylor a couple of times, and yes it was exciting and yes, I thought the Stones started to play better. They started to concentrate a bit more, they started to jam a bit more on a song they have played hundreds of times and hasn't changed since the early 90's, Midnight Rambler.

But in my opinion it wasn't very good what he played. There wasn't an idea behind, it was not rehearsed, it was some of the times just bad.

There's many clips on youtube that aren't very good. Check the Japanese shows, where they did Silver Train and Sway -that's just plain bad guitar playing and he doesn't have a clue how the songs go.

In Berlin' Waldbuhne you also could notice he irritated Keith, by taking the lead from him, by starting the middle part too early, by changing the beat around. I thought that was great, because it was new and quite exciting, but Keith was absolutely pissed at Taylor.

But again: I was happy for him to return. and sad that he only played a such a small amount of numbers.

Mathijs

Not sure how you were actually "happy for him to return, and sad that he only played a such a small amount of numbers" when just about everything you comment on is a negative.
As for me, the six shows I saw that tour were all fantastic (with Staples #2 being the best), and also think he should have played on more songs as he elevated everything he contributed to.
There's a reason Keith wanted to keep him on for future shows, and it seems obvious why - the band was all around much better sounding and exciting when Mick Taylor was on stage with them.
At least that's what the majority of fans, musicians, and critics who attended any of those shows thought anyways...

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Captainchaos
For me Taylor is still clearly miles better than Woods, Richards is a shadow of what he was, Woods plays better than he has for 30 years but isn't of the quality of taylor

Truth.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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PhillyFAN
This is 2016. White Room. Incredible playing by MT.

[youtu.be]

Having sung this song publicly - it's hard to remember those words. Can understand why singer has a lyric sheet. Especially with that one backup singer, he'd probably be like "In a short skirt, by the short skirt, near the short skirt..." lol

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PhillyFAN
This is 2016. White Room. Incredible playing by MT.

[youtu.be]

Straight fire

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TravelinMan

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PhillyFAN
This is 2016. White Room. Incredible playing by MT.

[youtu.be]

Straight fire

But lots of noodling...

Sway @ same venue same band one with taylor recorded on a phone, one without taylor professionally recorded and mixed by the band.

2013 sway live from a phone with Taylor (his leads starts at 3.33)
[www.youtube.com]

1998 Sway live from the official stones page and eq'd by a pro, and from the desk (Woods lead @ 2.47)
[www.youtube.com]

Regardless of Taylor, the band itself sounds poorer/ring rusty in 2013 on this track. Richards goes missing in action and I find it weird Woods seems to forget how to play it or looks like he'd prefer to go impish mood and goof about ala CYHMK @ Glasto when taylor starts to play. its abit disrespectful, he only seems to play the impish mode @ goof about when its a taylor song/section from looking at a few clips, rather than support.

Anyhow - both popped up when on youtube looking for sway chicago, so i thought id stick them up and let you see unprofessional/unrehersed Taylor (like sheeeessssh Mathij) and the professional no taylor version.

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Captainchaos
Sway @ same venue same band one with taylor recorded on a phone, one without taylor professionally recorded and mixed by the band.

2013 sway live from a phone with Taylor (his leads starts at 3.33)
[www.youtube.com]

1998 Sway live from the official stones page and eq'd by a pro, and from the desk (Woods lead @ 2.47)
[www.youtube.com]

Your second clip isn't from 1998 but from the Biggest Bang dvd. It is actually one of Ronnie's best performances, if only because it's a rare occasion where he actually chose to sound good.
The clip with Taylor simply shows the greatness of what the band lost when he departed.

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dcba

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TravelinMan

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PhillyFAN
This is 2016. White Room. Incredible playing by MT.

[youtu.be]

Straight fire

But lots of noodling...

BS

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Captainchaos
Sway @ same venue same band one with taylor recorded on a phone, one without taylor professionally recorded and mixed by the band.

2013 sway live from a phone with Taylor (his leads starts at 3.33)
[www.youtube.com]

1998 Sway live from the official stones page and eq'd by a pro, and from the desk (Woods lead @ 2.47)
[www.youtube.com]

Regardless of Taylor, the band itself sounds poorer/ring rusty in 2013 on this track. Richards goes missing in action and I find it weird Woods seems to forget how to play it or looks like he'd prefer to go impish mood and goof about ala CYHMK @ Glasto when taylor starts to play. its abit disrespectful, he only seems to play the impish mode @ goof about when its a taylor song/section from looking at a few clips, rather than support.

Anyhow - both popped up when on youtube looking for sway chicago, so i thought id stick them up and let you see unprofessional/unrehersed Taylor (like sheeeessssh Mathij) and the professional no taylor version.

Thanks. Yeah, in that older (BIGGEST BANG?) clip the band sounds more focused. Which makes me wonder if the 'too many cooks' phenomenon occurs in that Taylor version. It could be that both Ronnie and Keith were actually unrehearsed or somehow out of it for whatever reason (compared to the other version), but to me they all sound like not anyone really taking the song in any of their shoulders, but just following what the others do, and not trying to step too much on other's shoes. Probably Keith is the weakest link there, and but since he's the boss over-all, both Taylor and Wood are careful not to take too much room, having silky hands there - so the whole thing goes somehow without true leadership and focus. It is the solo sections which work best, especially the Taylor one. If memory serves, they had similar problems with "Silver Train".

My suspicion about the (beautiful an sich) idea of 'three guitars together' is based on that kind of impression - they really can't find a suitable and natural balance between the guitarists and their roles. I think the problem is not really Woodie or Taylor, but the maestro Keith. Ronnie and Taylor could easily get their shit together, but both are kind of handicapped by keeping too much eye on Keith and not step on his shoes. Woodie does that much better on his own. With three of them the chemistry is not just right for a great guitar band. Only in paper.

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-26 00:55 by Doxa.

two is company, three is a crowd …….

Some guy named John Ray told 'em this
about hundred years before the 1792 tour ……...



ROCKMAN

Quote
Doxa

Quote
Captainchaos
Sway @ same venue same band one with taylor recorded on a phone, one without taylor professionally recorded and mixed by the band.

2013 sway live from a phone with Taylor (his leads starts at 3.33)
[www.youtube.com]

1998 Sway live from the official stones page and eq'd by a pro, and from the desk (Woods lead @ 2.47)
[www.youtube.com]

Regardless of Taylor, the band itself sounds poorer/ring rusty in 2013 on this track. Richards goes missing in action and I find it weird Woods seems to forget how to play it or looks like he'd prefer to go impish mood and goof about ala CYHMK @ Glasto when taylor starts to play. its abit disrespectful, he only seems to play the impish mode @ goof about when its a taylor song/section from looking at a few clips, rather than support.

Anyhow - both popped up when on youtube looking for sway chicago, so i thought id stick them up and let you see unprofessional/unrehersed Taylor (like sheeeessssh Mathij) and the professional no taylor version.

Thanks. Yeah, in that older (BIGGEST BANG?) clip the band sounds more focused. Which makes me wonder if the 'too many cooks' phenomenon occurs in that Taylor version. It could be that both Ronnie and Keith were actually unrehearsed or somehow out of it for whatever reason (compared to the other version), but to me they all sound like not anyone really taking the song in any of their shoulders, but just following what the others do, and not trying to step too much on other's shoes. Probably Keith is the weakest link there, and but since he's the boss over-all, both Taylor and Wood are careful not to take too much room, having silky hands there - so the whole thing goes somehow without true leadership and focus. It is the solo sections which work best, especially the Taylor one. If memory serves, they had similar problems with "Silver Train".

My suspicion about the (beautiful an sich) idea of 'three guitars together' is based on that kind of impression - they really can't find a suitable and natural balance between the guitarists and their roles. I think the problem is not really Woodie or Taylor, but the maestro Keith. Ronnie and Taylor could easily get their shit together, but both are kind of handicapped by keeping too much eye on Keith and not step on his shoes. Woodie does that much better on his own. With three of them the chemistry is not just right for a great guitar band. Only in paper.

- Doxa

We could go on arguing for ages about professionalism and who is really the weak link, but my idea of Taylor's return is just very simple: I would have thought he would be the happiest guy on earth with this possibility to completely revive his career, to fix a mistake he made in 1975 by leaving, to achieve a bit of financial success he was longing for for so long.

I would have expected Taylor, or actually anyone, is to come prepared and to just completely own the stage on the selected tracks he plays on.

When all is said and done, the solo of Sway is just a simple pentatonic solo over C, and I would have expected Taylor to burn the stage with a short, concise and precise solo. Same goes for a track like Silver Train -that slide is very easy, and I would have expected Taylor to take that spot and own it. Instead, he appears to try to figure out what to play in front of 20,000 people.

And the same goes for the backstage drama that occured. I expected them to be thankful for the chance to be taken up into the Stones family, instead they got thrown out by security.

Mathijs
Ps it is not my choice to spread backstage rumours without saying what happened, but this is BV's board and he makes the rules.

Yeah, I get your point, Mathijs, and I think for any of us lesser mortals, especially for those playing guitar, the idea of joining the Rolling Stones would be a world's biggest dream come true. But my picture of Mick Taylor is that he does not much have any 'Rolling Stones fan' or even 'rock star' mentality (unlike, say, Ronnie Wood), and I wouldn't be sure about if he really has much regrets about leaving the group back then. Probably financially sometimes, yes, but is that all there is? And for that matter, I don't think re-joining the group might have been his biggest dream along the years. Probably it was just another gig for him (like it was from 1969 to 1974), plus having the extra bonus that he was financially able retire after it (as it looks like he has done).

My humble opinion is that Taylor did a good job with the Stones during his latest stint. Probably we have different expectations, but I didn't expect him to show extraordinary guitar slinger wonders or 'steal the show' - although quite many people seem to think so - but just show to us some of that particular talent of his, which seperates him from the other guitarists the band has or ever have had. Which I think he mostly did. For me, who happen to catch him twice along the years, those moments constitute some of the most musically memorable moments I have experienced in numerous Rolling Stones concerts since 1995. And it's only two "Ramblers" I am talking about, and not even the nostalgia explains the positive experience of mine.

Whatever happened behind the stage or whatever I don't know, and I leave that to 'those-in-the-know'. I love speculation, as I surely have proved in this site forever now, but there are things about real persons that I don't feel comfortable to discuss in a public sphere. I just judge and make observations from the base of Taylor's performances.

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-26 13:57 by Doxa.

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Doxa
Yeah, I get your point, Mathijs, and I think for any of us lesser mortals, especially for those playing guitar, the idea of joining the Rolling Stones would be a world's biggest dream come true. But my picture of Mick Taylor is that he does not much have any 'Rolling Stones fan' or even 'rock star' mentality (unlike, say, Ronnie Wood), and I wouldn't be sure about if he really has much regrets about leaving the group back then. Probably financially sometimes, yes, but is that all there is? And for that matter, I don't think re-joining the group might have been his biggest dream along the years. Probably it was just another gig for him (like it was from 1969 to 1974), plus having the extra bonus that he was financially able retire after it (as it looks like he has done).

My humble opinion is that Taylor did a good job with the Stones during his latest stint. Probably we have different expectations, but I didn't expect him to show extraordinary guitar slinger wonders or 'steal the show' - although quite many people seem to think so - but just show to us some of that particular talent of his, which seperates him from the other guitarists the band has or ever have had. Which I think he mostly did. For me, who happen to catch him twice along the years, those moments constitute some of the most musically memorable moments I have experienced in numerous Rolling Stones concerts since 1995. And it's only two "Ramblers" I am talking about, and not even the nostalgia explains the positive experience of mine.

Whatever happened behind the stage or whatever I don't know, and I leave that to 'those-in-the-know'. I love speculation, as I surely have proved in this site forever now, but there are things about real persons that I don't feel comfortable to discuss in a public sphere. I just judge and make observations from the base of Taylor's performances.

- Doxa

One last thing and than I stop, but I just remembered: Taylor blew me away when he did that Shine a Light solo at the Jimmy Fallon show. And I guess I expected more of that with the Stones, but it just never came....

Mathijs

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Mathijs

One last thing and than I stop, but I just remembered: Taylor blew me away when he did that Shine a Light solo at the Jimmy Fallon show. And I guess I expected more of that with the Stones, but it just never came....

Mathijs

- Doxa

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Mathijs

We could go on arguing for ages about professionalism and who is really the weak link, but my idea of Taylor's return is just very simple: I would have thought he would be the happiest guy on earth with this possibility to completely revive his career, to fix a mistake he made in 1975 by leaving, to achieve a bit of financial success he was longing for for so long.

I would have expected Taylor, or actually anyone, is to come prepared and to just completely own the stage on the selected tracks he plays on.

When all is said and done, the solo of Sway is just a simple pentatonic solo over C, and I would have expected Taylor to burn the stage with a short, concise and precise solo. Same goes for a track like Silver Train -that slide is very easy, and I would have expected Taylor to take that spot and own it. Instead, he appears to try to figure out what to play in front of 20,000 people.

And the same goes for the backstage drama that occured. I expected them to be thankful for the chance to be taken up into the Stones family, instead they got thrown out by security.

Mathijs
Ps it is not my choice to spread backstage rumours without saying what happened, but this is BV's board and he makes the rules.

Seems your expectations might have been set too high and you couldn't really enjoy it simply for what it was as hundreds of thousands of other people did- the return of a key element from the glory days of the Rolling Stones.

So he wasn't the "happiest guy on earth" in your opinion, nor did he take the opportunity to possibly "completely revive his career, to fix a mistake he made in 1975 by leaving".
So he wasn't prepared as you expected, nor did he " just completely own the stage on the selected tracks he plays on" in your mind.
And according to you he didn't "burn the stage with a short, concise and precise solo" on Sway as you had expected.
Same with Silver Train - you expected him "to take that spot and own it", but he didn't quite meet your expectations.
As for the "backstage drama", not sure why you would bring any of that up to begin with, but evidently he didn't meet your expectations and standards with that either.

So with all these expectations and high standards you set and hoped for, I guess it's understandable why you come across as a nitpicker and overly critical.
Most people were just happy to be in the presence of greatness and enjoy the experience for what it was - the return of a key element from the Stones glory days.
And while he may not have replicated that previous greatness exactly (which to be sure none of them are able to), it was still a historical landmark in the history of the Stones.
A shame you couldn't set aside your high hopes and expectations and simply enjoy it for what it was, and I guess the bubble was burst when your fantasy wasn't fulfilled to your liking.
And then you dredge up "backstage drama" which reeks of bitterness as it has nothing to do with the musical performances at all, but if it makes you feel better to vent, oh well....

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-26 19:07 by Hairball.

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Hairball

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Mathijs


And the same goes for the backstage drama that occured. I expected them to be thankful for the chance to be taken up into the Stones family, instead they got thrown out by security.

Mathijs
Ps it is not my choice to spread backstage rumours without saying what happened, but this is BV's board and he makes the rules.

And then you dredge up "backstage drama" which reeks of bitterness as it has nothing to do with the musical performances at all, but if it makes you feel better to vent, oh well....

Arises the question why BV allows Mathijs to post it ?

Come on, Hairball. As critical as you are of Jagger, which you have every right to be, doesn't the same hold true of these guys for Taylor?

They're opinions formed by passionate fans and they're undeniably well-stated opinions. It doesn't mean everyone else has to jump on board and consider it Gospel, though.

One person sees a Stones show and thinks Keith is amazing while the person next to them thinks Keith is posing and barely playing. It isn't a question of right and wrong. They're impressions formed. They're the correct impression for each person and they're both convinced of what they saw and heard with their own eyes and ears.

Everyone has the right to express whatever and however they feel, and I never said anything about right or wrong opinions and impressions.
I was just pointing out how various expectations can taint and/or affect an experience.

If I went to a Stones show expecting Keith to blaze a perfect solo on Sympathy )one that sounds like the studio version), of course I'd probably be disappointed that it didn't meet my expectation.
Same goes for Mathijs - seems he set expectations that couldn't be met.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-26 19:28 by Hairball.

Do you think MT rehearsed the Shine A Light solo on Fallon probably not but it was stated he played awesome, so I guess if you do not practice and rehearse 3 chord songs before you play with Keith and the boys you will not live up to expectations?

ROCKMAN

Mick Taylor with Andrew Perry -- MOJO Collector Series 2019



ROCKMAN

"I may not look like a silver streak any more, but I can still play like one" - M.T.


I recall the first time I saw him as part of the Bluesbreakers reunion at the Roxy in L.A. in 1982, and to be quite honest it was jaw dropping how great he was.
Definitely helped that it was such a small club and my older bro made sure we were front center, but even if it was at a giant arena and we had nosebleeds probably would have still been blown away.
Saw him again at the 100 club in London the night after the Stones Astoria show in '03, and again was very impressed - in fact I recall enjoying it more than the Astoria show.
Rumours were flying he was to appear with the Stones at the Astoria (it was almost a guarantee), but it was not to be, and ultimately the show suffered because of it.
Another case of expectations not being met I suppose, but the following night watching Taylor and his band at the 100 Club w/capacity of 350 sort of eased the pain.
Fast forward to 50 and Counting, and all was right with the world during the six shows I attended, though it would have been better had he been involved way more than the amount he was.
But beggars can't be choosers, and the shows were amongst the best shows I've ever experienced - not only Stones shows, but shows by any band. There was magic in the air, and am thankful the Stones made it happen.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-27 03:29 by Hairball.

It actually really made me respect Taylor for how he dealt with his guest spots. (Not that I needed to find reasons to respect him). But it was a little bit of a F*ck you' that he sent the big-time corporate Stones machine: that he did not come all scrubbed and clean, and well rehearsed. he was kind of a mess; he was by no means meek and "just happy to be here". I really liked the way he seemed to not have thought about any solo until the actual second it started. Many of those solos were radically different; a totally different approach from one night to another.
There is a version of CYHMK, where I always imagine him saying to Ronnie "look, this is what you could have done with it; this is how far you could have gone out in that direction with it".
Because no matter how well Ron did on CYHMK it was always completely riffed around Taylor's original.

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TheflyingDutchman

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Hairball

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Mathijs


And the same goes for the backstage drama that occured. I expected them to be thankful for the chance to be taken up into the Stones family, instead they got thrown out by security.

Mathijs
Ps it is not my choice to spread backstage rumours without saying what happened, but this is BV's board and he makes the rules.

And then you dredge up "backstage drama" which reeks of bitterness as it has nothing to do with the musical performances at all, but if it makes you feel better to vent, oh well....

Arises the question why BV allows Mathijs to post it ?

Talking about back-stage drama - then let us know what it was all about. If not letting us know, then we assume it is just gossip and no real content. Stop posting loose gossip - either let us know or deny it.

Just reading between the lines, it sounds like his drug addiction was a chronic problem and kept him from managing his career.