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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-05 02:28 by His Majesty.

I did the pink and green in honor of His Majesty.

If Spanish Tony's Up and Down book is now to be relied upon as history, then let me dust it off and begin to cite.

Here's the emphasis - Brian had some moments, but once the band became bigger, he became a liability, much like Bob Stinson with the Replacements or even Ronnie on the 81-82 tour.

The romanticism of Brian will always be around, but most who romanticize him need to be honest with themselves and ask - did he write anything, was it given to the band, did the band use it, and why why why?



stonesstein

Kick me like you did before
I can't even feel the pain no more
Rocks Off, 1972

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alieb

Could ABKCO still claim the rights even though it wasn't material recorded with the Stones?

I would imagine lawyers for ABKCO and/or Brian's sister are all over this as we speak, preparing court orders to reveal certain people's identities and to claim - fairly or unfairly - that the tapes and anything else she has were stolen. Who knows if they will prevail, but this lady seems to be on shaky ground.

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Rockman


........maybe a lil' more pink an green while we wait so patiently ...

I lost my train of thought.

.....here ....dis'll jerk ya back on track ......





ROCKMAN

x



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:51 by His Majesty.

Imo one of the reason why Brian ostracized hismelf from the band is M&K started pretty early to have a very hard working ethic i.e. spending days and day on a single riff/song idea until it was perfect.

I suspect Brain had a short attention span and he'd get bored working on the same song again and again. Hence the growing rift between him and a band he created...

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His Majesty

At best I think that some songs might have evolved from jams that Brian would sometimes have been involved in. There's so many possible scenarios for a direct influence to happen, intentional or otherwise. It doesn't have to be this big thing of someone else writing something and presenting it.

I agree with you here, as BJ has always seemed more of a guy who "flavored" other people's trax as opposed to one who wrote them himself.

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His Majesty
I for one do not think I romanticise him, more I seek to better understand the band he helped form and who he was as a musician outside of and within that band because what he played as a musician was sometimes quite amazing which in turn made them quite amazing, vice versa etc etc.

I agree with you again in that I do not think that you tend to "romanticize" Brian or his input, role, and contribution to the band. However, there are many here among us who think that BJ's viability was much greater than it actually was during the 68-69 timeframe. There are some who think that Brian did a lot during that time period, including that he actually contributed meaningfully to some of the Bleed trax, but I have spoken with several who were around the band in 68 and 69 during the recordings of Beggars and Bleed, and most say that Brian was hardly a factor by that time.

The slide on No Expectations aside, can anyone else identify (other than autoharp) a meaningful contribution to either Beggars, Bleed, or trax from the 2nd half of 68 on where Brian's contribution can be heard? I can't, but I'd love to hear from someone who can.

Finally, other than that slide solo from No Expectations, the only real contributions I hear from BJ from 1966 on (yes, 1966!!) are the "novel" or "unusual" instruments such as the dulcimers, the autoharps, the mellotrons, and the zithers. As for BJ's guitar playing from 1966 forward, with the noted exception, I find it not to stand out within the band's music overall as Keith's began to so do.

stonesstein

Kick me like you did before
I can't even feel the pain no more
Rocks Off, 1972

<The slide on No Expectations aside, can anyone else identify (other than autoharp) a meaningful contribution to either Beggars, Bleed, or trax from the 2nd half of 68 on where Brian's contribution can be heard? I can't>

The brilliant mellotron on Jig Saw Puzzle comes to mind

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:52 by His Majesty.

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dcba
It would be fun if, on these reels, we found blueprints for JJF and SFTD!

Holy moly the entire history of the year 1968 would have to be rewritten!

You mean the Vietnam war and such? Wow, who would think Brian could have such an impact

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His Majesty
1968 Jones -

Supposedly plays guitar on Jumoin' Jack Flash, but it's just guess work as to what he played.

Soprano saxophone on Child of the Moon
(most likely) the harmonica on Dear Doctor
(possibly) the main harmonica heard through the track on Parachute Woman
Mellotron on Jigsaw Puzzle
Sitar and tamboura on Street Fighting Man
Mellotron on Stray Cat Blues

Slide on ace officially unreleased Still A Fool

Regarding late 1968 - May 1969, it is the case that he was around more than we had kind of been lead to believe. Of course, being around more than has been implied does not necessarily mean he contributed much or anything of worth.

Significiant or not...doesn´t Brian also play the (mixed low) harmonica on Prodigal Son?

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:52 by His Majesty.

As I've spent some days off I missed this thread, and that's probably one of the most exciting threads in months. Great job, His Majesty! Keep us posted, please.

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Cristiano Radtke
As I've spent some days off I missed this thread, and that's probably one of the most exciting threads in months. Great job, His Majesty! Keep us posted, please.

Exactly, my sentiments as well, after being off some time as well! Damn great job, His Majesty! Looking forward hearing the stuff whatever it is...

- Doxa

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His Majesty

At best I think that some songs might have evolved from jams that Brian would sometimes have been involved in. Within those jams something someone played melodic or otherwise got picked up on by Jagger and/or Richards and used as the basis or part of a song. It could be part of a song they had already began to create or a kick off for something they would write a song around etc. There's so many possible scenarios for a direct influence to happen, intentional or otherwise.

It doesn't have to be this big thing of someone else writing something and presenting it.

The story of that band is a very imperfect one and still unraveling. I for one do not think I romanticise him, more I seek to better understand the band he helped form and who he was as a musician outside of and within that band because what he played as a musician was sometimes quite amazing which in turn made them quite amazing, vice versa etc etc.

His approach to creativity is something I wish more musicians would embrace.

A great post, and I cannot more agree with the last sentence. "Approach to creativity" - nicely put.

- Doxa

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:52 by His Majesty.

While we wait...


Here´s what journalist Keith Altham said after hearing some of Brian´s recordings:
(NME October 21, 1966)


Brian played me some of the experiments in sound he has been conducting in the privacy of his home,
but impressed on me that they were purely personal attempts and that the mixing and dubbing effects were far from perfect.
He seemed enthusiastic, but embarrassed about his efforts.

"This is Keith and I on two guitars and percussion put on later with that Berber drum."
He indicated a tom-tom drum in a corner of the room.

One tape was astoundingly effective, with a weird, psalm-like chant going on in the background,
which gave a sensational effect, like an electrified Black Mass.

Some further electronic experiment sounded like the Who after a few drinks!

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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:53 by His Majesty.

is that Tony Abbot guy really PM of Australia, or is he some kind of comedian doing a paraody of a terrible politician?

Well we're always about five years behind what the US does so we've now got our own George Bush ....



ROCKMAN

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Rockman
is that Tony Abbot guy really PM of Australia, or is he some kind of comedian doing a paraody of a terrible politician?

Well we're always about five years behind what the US does so we've now got our own George Bush ....

Bush wasn't President 5 years ago!

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:53 by His Majesty.

..... whooops left out the W .......



ROCKMAN

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:53 by His Majesty.

Fixed? fixed what...........you can't fixed things on the Internet

__________________________

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His Majesty

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stonesstein
The romanticism of Brian will always be around, but most who romanticize him need to be honest with themselves and ask - did he write anything, was it given to the band, did the band use it, and why why why?

At best I think that some songs might have evolved from jams that Brian would sometimes have been involved in. Within those jams something someone played melodic or otherwise got picked up on by Jagger and/or Richards and used as the basis or part of a song. It could be part of a song they had already began to create or a kick off for something they would write a song around etc. There's so many possible scenarios for a direct influence to happen, intentional or otherwise.

It doesn't have to be this big thing of someone else writing something and presenting it.

The story of that band is a very imperfect one and still unraveling. I for one do not think I romanticise him, more I seek to better understand the band he helped form and who he was as a musician outside of and within that band because what he played as a musician was sometimes quite amazing which in turn made them quite amazing, vice versa etc etc.

His approach to creativity is something I wish more musicians would embrace.

Let me mention a few tunes he might have changed. Paint It Black. Bill reworked the bass pedals on the organ while Brian did a melody on sitar. Didn't those two basically rearrange the whole tune or at least gave Mick and Keith the idea? Jumping Jack Flash. Didn't Mick walk into the studio to tell Brian, Bill and Charlie to keep playing because he liked the sound and arrangement of their version of JJF? And wasn't Brian the one playing the famous riff we all know and love on guitar? Maybe the famous riff for the very first time? Brian was pumped that they were going back to rock and roll. True or not he certainly had more input in how songs ended up than he got credit for. I still believe Brian gave Keith the idea about riff guitar. Brian took Keith's The Last Time and turned it into a hit with his hypnotic repetitive riff. Keith was all riff after that. The very next single was Satisfaction. It was built on a simple riff. Keith has been riffing ever since. Brian undoubtedly was a big influence on both Mick and Keith. A lot of people may disagree with this but if you listen, read and watch everything the stones did in sequence there is no doubt Brian was a big influence.

<<Paint It Black. Bill reworked the bass pedals on the organ while Brian did a melody on sitar. Didn't those two basically rearrange the whole tune or at least gave Mick and Keith the idea?>>

The former. The song was already written and arranged, with the intro a "gypsy" style of Spanish guitar--the way Keith plays it on the Steel Wheels/Urban Jungle tour....





For the Jack Flash riff, Bill has always claimed credit for originating it, but I suspect it comes from an even earlier source. Have a listen to the 20 seconds of piano noodling at the beginning of Flight 505, and tell me what familiar riff you here at 0:19. For what it's worth, Keith has referred to the riff as "Satisfaction in reverse", so I suppose that's his way of claiming credit.

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stonehearted
Have a listen to the 20 seconds of piano noodling at the beginning of Flight 505, and tell me what familiar riff you here at 0:19. For what it's worth, Keith has referred to the riff as "Satisfaction in reverse"

Mercy - that bit of Flight 505 is an deliberate quotation of Satisfaction. Providing context.

And it wasn't that Mick and Keith walked in and heard the other three playing an arrangement of JJF -
they wrote JJF after that. I've convinced myself I know what Bill was playing that fateful evening
but I'll wait for him to admit it himself. Meanwhile, HM my dear: How are those tapes coming along,
and who took that amazing photo of Brian and Keith at Courtfield Road?

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with sssoul
I've convinced myself I know what Bill was playing that fateful evening
but I'll wait for him to admit it himself.

Please elaborate, he says he wrote the riff and Keith has commented on it by downplaying it to "Satisfaction in reverse".

The Flight 505 0:19 thing sounds like "Let's Spend The Night Together" more than anything else.

The JJF riff has 2 accents at the beginning of the riff just like the Satisfaction riff does but the JJF riff bass the descends down to the bVII unlike the Satisfaction riff.

Like, the JJF riff's opening 2 accents start off in B and then the harmony descends to A for the rest of the riff and there is a pick up bit of the riff over the B leading into the A harmony and then that pickup gets syncopated for the rest of the riff over A.

The descent down to the bVII is more modal Blues as the straight out Blues doesn't have a bVII chord and the Blues is usually I IV V ie B E F#.

The bVII chord was coming into Rock quite a bit in the 60s and the Who and others used it.

The JJF riff does seem like a variation of the Satisfaction riff over a I to bVII chord progression.

The ability to focus in on a musical thing and turn it into a song is a knack more than anything.

Keith talks about Brian not being able to focus in on song things.

Brian did write generic music and songs which we can all hear in the film soundtrack he did and other accounts from when he was trying to get a band together after the Stones and there is an account earlier in this thread about Brian and Keith having some sort of jam.

But they are not commercial sort of songs that the Stones needed.

Keith has said that writing songs for the Stones was hard to do especially at first.

Keith would focus in on song things and so would Mick.

Keith might have used bits of the Supremes "My World Is Empty Without You" melody as a starting point for "Paint It Black" and the Four Tops "Same Old Song" for "Under My Thumb" and Martha and the Vandellas "Nowhere To Run" for Satisfaction (Dylan's Hard Rain also for Satisfaction) but he and Mick could transform and flesh out these bits into Stones songs and Brian just seems to have not had that knack.

[www.iorr.org]

Have a listen to this from Angus's brother George Young who co-wrote "Friday On My Mind".

It's a song from George Young (and Harry Vanda) called Quick Reaction and it's pre AC/DC and the AC/DC TNT riff is in the chorus.

It takes a songwriter to recognise that that riff can be used for a song and then melodies and lyrics added etc etc.

George Young was a songwriter and so was Angus and Malcolm and Bon and somehow that George Young riff got transformed into TNT and Keith and Mick could do similar things as I outlined above and Brian and Bill and Charlie just didn't have that songwriter knack for Stones songs (I'm rejecting Bill's song efforts as they are nothing much IMO btw).

Most musicians don't have that songwriter knack and they can be great musicians but not able to write anything that people want to hear.












Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-06 10:54 by howled.