<Keith might have used bits of the Supremes "My World Is Empty Without You" melody as a starting point for "Paint It Black">

I'm not so sure of that, really. Those first five notes are just a scale, and this could very well just be a coincidence. Maybe an inspiration, without being aware of it?

It's easy, sitting in our armchairs some decades later and say that he knicked this and that, but being inspired by lots of things from a living and pulsating music scene is something else, I think.

I'm not saying he didn't use it as the starting point for creating that riff, I simply don't know. But it could very well be that he didn't do that consciously as well, imo.

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DandelionPowderman
<Keith might have used bits of the Supremes "My World Is Empty Without You" melody as a starting point for "Paint It Black">

I'm not so sure of that, really. Those first five notes are just a scale, and this could very well just be a coincidence. Maybe an inspiration, without being aware of it?

It's easy, sitting in our armchairs some decades later and say that he knicked this and that, but being inspired by lots of things from a living and pulsating music scene is something else, I think.

I'm not saying he didn't use it as the starting point for creating that riff, I simply don't know. But it could very well be that he didn't do that consciously as well, imo.

The idea is to not copy everything note for note but to use it as a base and then variations might happen down the track and then to flesh it out into a song with another sort of direction.

It's often not obvious for a casual listener and it shouldn't be obvious because that's plagiarism and Jimmy Page and Robert Plant didn't do enough variations away from what they were using as the base in some song cases.

Mick and Keith didn't alter The Last Time chorus enough but they did for other songs after that.

Not all song and riff things are based on others but quite a few are because it's about inspiration and turning things around and altering this and fitting that with that etc etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-06 11:03 by howled.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:47 by His Majesty.

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DandelionPowderman


I'm not saying he didn't use it as the starting point for creating that riff, I simply don't know. But it could very well be that he didn't do that consciously as well, imo.

An interesting distinction, and there surely is a grey area between the stances as well.

But for the latter - picking up some influences without recognizing it - it is rather curious that Keith sees that as Mick's 'sin' in LIFE. And the case of "Anybody Seen My Baby?" is a rather innocent case compared to many, especially the very early Jagger/Richards compositions in the past (howled gave some good examples). I personally hear much more "Paint It Black" in that Supremes song as I do hear "Anybody Seen My Baby?" in that k.d. lang song. But I'm with you Dandie in thinking that listening to a lot of music - having antenna's out - as Mick and Keith did especially in the early days, surely affected to the songs they did. Especially Keith who was the main responsible for the melodies and music, had a very open ears for what was going on (before turning to a stubborn conservatist/purist). Nothing comes out of nowhere.

- Doxa

Is the PIB riff even a riff that was written by Keith? Perhaps he had the chord structure and it was a melody that Jagger wrote into the song? I dunno. I couldn't get all the way thru "Life" as so much was nauseating. Don't know if he mentioned it in that "autobiography".

Good pic of Brian and Keith hanging though.

Keith goes into some songwriting things in his book about thinking of songs while swimming etc etc or something like that, and listening to the Beach Boys and obviously Motown as well and Brian and Bill and Charlie were not looking out for song ideas in the same way as Keith and Mick were.

So, Keith would be inspired by the Supremes vocal line and end up altering it a bit and putting a middle eastern resolving thing into it (which is a B7 instead of the Supremes C) and then Keith might have the break bit hanging around and then they would try it in the studio and Mick would get some lyrics going and then they would knock it around and maybe try different arrangements and then record it.

So Paint It Black might have started from Keith playing around with a Supremes melody but it get's transformed into something quite different by Mick and Keith and Brian and Bill and Charlie and Jack added certain colours to it, but the starter of it all was Keith and without the start Brian and Bill and Charlie would have had nothing to contribute to and Mick was finishing it off with the lyrics and other things.

The former bass player from AC/DC gives an account in his book on how those early AC/DC albums were done and it's very similar to the Stones in lots of ways.

Angus and Malcolm would have some riffs gathered while they were touring and there were no real songs that were finished and Bon was also gathering lyric ideas while they were touring and then AC/DC would head into the studio and Angus and Malcolm would get together with their brother George with the whole 3 of them at the piano and work out the music and arrangement on the piano (and also with guitars) and then Bon would add the lyrics and writing the music would take about 1 week and adding the lyrics and recording would take another week with Angus overdubbing the solos last and the whole album was finished in 2 weeks.

The bass player and the drummer would have hardly any idea of what was going to be recorded until the 2nd week after Angus and Malcolm and George (and Bon) had worked it all out and then it was all run through with the bass player and drummer.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-06 17:19 by howled.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:47 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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with sssoul
Meanwhile, HM my dear: How are those tapes coming along,
and who took that amazing photo of Brian and Keith at Courtfield Road?

Still to be delivered.

No credit given, but I possibly a Michael Cooper photo? Unless the Italian film crew etc were snapping away whilst they were there filming.

Here's where it came from...

This clipping, plus a couple of others using that pic, are in the treasure trove (my collection of Stones clippings up to about 1983) that is due to be arriving chez moi this summer, so stay tuned for possible additional info!

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:48 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty
Yeah, that's all there is to it, all nice and neat and tied up in a bow.

That was the general process as far as I understand it from accounts by Jack and engineers who worked with the Stones etc etc.

Brian did add the "Last Time Riff"and other things and Bill added bass riffs or whatever like 19th Nervous Breakdown and Charlie added Drum parts but the source of the songs were Keith and Mick and not Brian or Bill or Charlie or whoever.

I think Brian's lack of commercial type song writing is pretty well known and covered by Mick and Keith and others.

The Stones songwriting didn't exactly go downhill after Brian left or whatever happened.

Mick wrote Brown Sugar in Australia and it had nothing to do with Keith or Brian or anyone in the Stones.

Honky Tonk Women was a Hank Williams type song written by Keith and Mick in South America and it had nothing to do with Brian or Bill or Charlie or Taylor or whoever.

The Mick/Keith songwriting didn't exactly fall apart because Brian was no longer in the picture did it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-06 19:09 by howled.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:48 by His Majesty.

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howled

The Mick/Keith songwriting didn't exactly fall apart because Brian was no longer in the picture did it?

But it did after Taylor left... Is it a coincidence or did MT bring sth [to] the Glimmer Twins' creativity?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-06 20:26 by dcba.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:48 by His Majesty.

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dcba

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howled

The Mick/Keith songwriting didn't exactly fall apart because Brian was no longer in the picture did it?

But it did after Taylor left... Is it a coincidence or did MT bring sth the Glimmer Twins' creativity?

Based on some of the postings around here, I'm surprised that no one has yet put forth the theory that the songwriting DID fall apart after BJ left and that it was simply the playing of MT that managed to prop up the glimmers for a few more years until he also left and they were exposed as the frauds they'd been all along.


Peace,
Mr DJA

EDIT: I stand corrected... His Majesty types faster than I do. Although he only put forth part of the theory, possibly there are some Taylorites who can elaborate and expand it a bit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-06 20:08 by mr_dja.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:49 by His Majesty.

LIB being my all time fav album had almost 0 from Brian or Mick
and that was a pretty fine effort from Keith!

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:49 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty
My post has nothing to do with your theory. ><

Really? You mean you weren't spying on me while I was typing? Thanks for the clarification.

I knew I should have put a disclaimer in my post as it is most certainly not my theory. Also I knew that your post was merely a coincidence. Apologies for making reference to your post even though it did illustrate my point.

Peace,
Mr DJA

Haha--Can't agree with that...

But what I do agree is that Brian added to the sound and gave what he could to the Stones.
And Without Brian we would not have the Stones in the 1st place..

But to say Keith and Mick are not great songwriters is another thing.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:50 by His Majesty.

COOL.

Thanks His Majesty!!!!

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:50 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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mr_dja

I knew I should have put a disclaimer in my post as it is most certainly not my theory. Also I knew that your post was merely a coincidence. Apologies for making reference to your post even though it did illustrate my point.

Peace,
Mr DJA

You have misunderstood it if you think it illustrates your point.

I'll have to admit that I'm not fully versed in the effect that a "smiley" has on the words before it. Does the "smiley" at the end of your statement make the words mean something other than what the average person would believe them to mean? I'll admit to being pretty average and was just referencing the words you typed in your statement. Without the smiley changing the meaning, I think both your statement and my observation of posts on IORR both referenced a decline of RS songwriting after BW left the band. No doubt that your statement clearly did not illustrate the rest of my observation regarding MT's playing being the saving grace for the glimmers and it was never my intention to make any insinuation that it did. I actually thought I did a pretty good job of stating that your statement only illustrated an example of what has led me to expect a full illustration of the theory. Maybe I should have used more, or different "smileys".

Seeing as it's Friday afternoon (at least where I am), I'll close with an appropriate "smiley" as I think we're probably pretty close to wasting not only our own time but that of the board if we were to take this conversation much farther... Here's to you!

Peace,
Mr DJA

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hot stuff
Haha--Can't agree with that...

But what I do agree is that Brian added to the sound and gave what he could to the Stones.
And Without Brian we would not have the Stones in the 1st place..

But to say Keith and Mick are not great songwriters is another thing.

I dont think Brian added what he could, I think he could have done a lot more had he not been stuck in his own creation. He could not leave and at the same time the boy band managemeant made Jagger/Richards into the main songwriters demanding hits which meant they had to steal from motown songs. "Stealing" or taking Ry Cooder for everything he had (qoute Keith) is obviously a work method as is using anything that happens to be recorded or played in the studio by a Stone (Brian, Bill, Taylor, Jack, Wood, Nicky, Billy etc) or someone else (Ry Cooder) This is the key to their productive era. That doesnt mean they didnt write stuff, it means that the method was implemented early on.

Jamming, recording, playing developing and not getting your name on the credits is probably the main reason for Brians short attention span. That doesnt mean he could write pop songs early on but nor could Keith or Mick.


Edit: I sounded way too harsh, sorry hot stuff. I judged you too harshly.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-07 09:49 by Redhotcarpet.

I do have to mention something about Mick and Keith's early songwriting. A few of the hits were written in the key of E major. The Last Time, Satisfaction, Get Off of My Cloud and 19th Nervous Breakdown. Can anyone explain this? Was it because Mick had a limited vocal range? Keith only new a major scale in the key of E? I always wondered this point. Granted they got more diverse key wise later on when they wrote, but four hits in a row in the key of E makes me scratch my head. All great songs I might add.

As for Keith lifting a lot from other songs, sources, songwriters and musicians? It is well documented. Of course the pressure of churning out hit after hit with non stop touring must have been enormous. They went from the concert to the television station to the recording studio in the early days.

As for Brian songwriting? Andrew isolated him as early as 1964 so between that and his paranoia he had no chance to produce. He did pen Sure I Do and that Rice Krispie jingle. I think Bill said it was he and Brian that came up with Off the Hook that they all got credit for. I would love to hear the lost Cotchford farm tapes. Brian was very influenced by CCR at that time. I'll bet those tapes would put to rest the ongoing debate about his songwriting. I think Brian would have found his niche after getting sacked by the Stones. Alas we'll never know.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-12 00:50 by His Majesty.

I don't think Mick and Keith's songwriting falls apart until the 80s and I'm no fan of Some Girls btw, but the songs on Some Girls are pretty good for what they were which were inspired by the punk/new wave/disco thing (some songs at least).

I follow the Stones from the early 60s to Sticky Fingers and that's about it except for a few other songs like Angie and IORR but just because I don't really like Some Girls doesn't mean that I can't recognise some good commercial songs on the album.

I don't like "Miss You" very much but it's a good commercial song.

The Stones were a commercial outfit as soon as they joined with Andrew Oldham and following commercial hit parade trends was part of it and the Stones were still following trends with Some Girls.

Brian had an effect on the Stones and so did Keith and Mick and Bill and Charlie and Taylor and Nicky and Jack.

Brian could handle loads of different instruments which was very useful in the 60s but maybe not so useful for Sticky Fingers where it's basically just guitars and some Sax (Trumpet).

But, someone has to start songs off somehow and that was mostly Keith and Mick doing the song construction work and Brian etc could spin those song ideas into going in different directions and some of Brian's stuff is embedded in the song so much that it's hard to imagine the song without Brian, like on "Paint It Black" and "Ruby Tuesday" and "Little Red Rooster" etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-07 08:28 by howled.

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ovalvox


As for Brian songwriting? Andrew isolated him as early as 1964 so between that and his paranoia he had no chance to produce. He did pen Sure I Do and that Rice Krispie jingle. I think Bill said it was he and Brian that came up with Off the Hook that they all got credit for. I would love to hear the lost Cotchford farm tapes. Brian was very influenced by CCR at that time. I'll bet those tapes would put to rest the ongoing debate about his songwriting. I think Brian would have found his niche after getting sacked by the Stones. Alas we'll never know.

That's the standard argument. Rice Cripsies and later on some poem on a piece of paper. It doesnt mean anything really, anything else than that Brian couldnt write pop songs on his own. He was a musician and took it seriously which always is a problem within pop music. He was 27 when he died. and as for 30 minutes of recorded material? I have days of my own recorded material. 90% "ideas", some good some bad. 10% actual songs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-07 09:38 by Redhotcarpet.

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howled
I don't think Mick and Keith's songwriting falls apart until the 80s and I'm no fan of Some Girls btw, but the songs on Some Girls are pretty good for what they were which were inspired by the punk/new wave/disco thing (some songs at least).

I follow the Stones from the early 60s to Sticky Fingers and that's about it except for a few other songs like Angie and IORR but just because I don't really like Some Girls doesn't mean that I can't recognise some good commercial songs on the album.

I don't like "Miss You" very much but it's a good commercial song.

The Stones were a commercial outfit as soon as they joined with Andrew Oldham and following commercial hit parade trends was part of it and the Stones were still following trends with Some Girls.

Brian had an effect on the Stones and so did Keith and Mick and Bill and Charlie and Taylor and Nicky and Jack.

Brian could handle loads of different instruments which was very useful in the 60s but maybe not so useful for Sticky Fingers where it's basically just guitars and some Sax (Trumpet).

But, someone has to start songs off somehow and that was mostly Keith and Mick doing the song construction work and Brian etc could spin those song ideas into going in different directions and some of Brian's stuff is embedded in the song so much that it's hard to imagine the song without Brian, like on "Paint It Black" and "Ruby Tuesday" and "Little Red Rooster" etc.

+1 on all of this

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His Majesty
It's too soon after his leaving and still being in a messed up state for anything of worth to be on any Cotchford tapes. His mind, body and spirit had took a battering over the past 7 or so years and his musical chops had suffered accordingly.

We know from one of the guitarists that played with him in that short space of time that things were hardly organised or inspiring. Aimless bluesy jams with no songs.

I think people with a theory that Brian was some secret great song writer need to be a bit more realistic with their views. He was (most likley) not that, but also not as useless as some have lead us to believe either.


...


One thing I think is that too much focus is put on the songs and not enough on the arrangement of the songs. Yes the songs are important, but most of their hits were also hits because of the music, the arrangements and the sound produced by the combination of the musicians playing on them.

People were also loving and buying the sound of The Rolling Stones.

Now, someone will probably say the arrangements need the song, but it is quite likley that some of those songs actually progressed as prototype arrangements and parts were worked out. Or the songs were written after exploring arrangement ideas for songs that had yet to exist. Those kinds of situations can throw up instances of the band members musical ideas affecting the song itself which in turn means that without such arrangement ideas the song itself would not be as it came to be.

It is in such a cauldron that Brian would/could have influence (when he was interested).

Exactly.