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It reminded me a bit of this episode from Norwegian football, where the German goalkeeper Heinz Muller knocked out Geir Ludvig Fevang who broke his jaw.
No action was taken by the referee, no card, no penalty. Fevang could have been killed. Most referees seems to protect goalkeepers in every situation. Whenever they fall down in the box, whether it's contact or not, they're given a free kick.
[www.youtube.com]
In that case it was unfair to hit Higuain.
But the Kramer incident was quite serious.
The linesman was 15 meters away from it.
How could they play on for so long?
Too many head injuries have been ignored in this World Cup.
It must be relevant if Neuer hit the ball, as opposed to just going for the opponent. I am only an occasional goalkeeper myself, but I know it from people who are goalkeepers that they get trained to lift their knees when jumping high to protect themselves, so this becomes an automatic reaction, rather than an intention to bring down the opponent. Whether this should be allowed considering the added risk of injury to the opponent is a good question, but it is standard practice at the moment and it doesn't usually get penalized. If you look at it carefully, Neuer's gaze is completely fixed on the ball until the moment he clears it, so in my eyes the "vicious attack" is on the ball, not the opponent. Football is a rough game and the risk of injury is always there even when the play is fair, it's a part of the game (I'm happy that Higuain escaped serious injury in this case).
I wasn't aware of the Heinz Müller episode, but again I can see why one would be reminded of it after last night. Still, this is a different case, as it seems from the video that the keeper deliberately lifts his left leg against the opponent after catching the ball.
They tried sudden death/golden goal before. I'm not sure if there are many who miss it.
After all, we want as much football as possible
I think there are valid arguments why Neuer's save was not foul play, but retaliation is certainly not one of them. The Kramer scene in my view was a similar situation, a bad clash, but not foul. As it happened, Kramer suffered the bigger injury, but it could also have ended the other way around.
Messi lacked condition. He also did vomit during the match. Says enough to me. Despite all that he remained a factor to reckon with. But the 'normal' Messi would have scored that goal with his left foot.
You forget that the off side rule was invented because there were so many goals each match. Results like 7-3 or 6-5 were normal. Besides the players are so much more athletic and fast now, the defenders almost always stronger than the strikers. Even against football dwarfs like Luxembourg, Malta, Lichtenstein and the like you don't see big results anymore.
Another issue: the measures of both the field and the goal and the number of players are from the very beginning of football when, as said, the players were much slower and much less athletic and fast than they are now, the goalkeepers also much shorter. A totally different game really.
So the least they can do to make the games more attractive, to see more goals is deleting the off side rule. An alternative would be to reduce the number of players to 10, so that there's more room to attack. Another thing is to make the goal at least higher than it is now, maybe even also wider. Bigger fields is not an option of course.
But I know too well how conservative football is: not using video afterwards, accepting so many obvious arbitrage faults, letting a team play with 10 against 11 when the '11-team' has kicked a player out of the match, instead of banning the offender for at least the injury time. So many irrational and conservative things in football.
As for the tournament, the group stage was the most fun period, because in the beginning teams take risks. From the knock-out stages on, the matches became dramatically less attractive, with the exception of the Belgian/American match. The number of goals also drastically diminished, except during that idiot game between a hopeless and headless Brazil and Germany (which was in hindsight not an exception, as the game Brazil against the Dutch showed). The staggering weakness of a Neymar-less Brazil was the most conspicuous phenomenon of the whole tournament anyway.
A World Cup should not be decided by a shootout. If, after a very long game, someone finally breaks a draw, that should be enough to end the game. Why have someone score in extra time and then possibly STILL end in a draw (and thus, a shootout)? Makes no sense to me, but then again, I am only an American with casual knowledge of the game.
I agree: sudden death during the official playing time is ... sudden death, not very satisfying. But they should invent another way to decide the game. The penalty shoot-out isn't attractive either. Maybe the golden goal after 120 minutes, that would be fun. Or exchanging the penalties for a real shoot-out: the player playing the ball from the middle line on while the goalkeeper is free to come out whenever he wishes. Don't they decide every draw in Japan in that way?
O well, another conservative football official.
The awards for acting are announced in the 'fall'.
What Parachute Man said. Knee lift looked as though it was to protect himself.
A hard hit but that's the nature of the game.
He deserves the both them!
There is a potentially dangerous situation arising here. We are moreorless in agreement with kleer on a few recent posts. Something must be going wrong! >
<
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-07-14 18:17 by Silver Dagger.
I meant it! It wasn't just because I want him back full time
Interesting points, PM, still not convinced though: Neuer's jumping with his knee pointing outward just doesn't look naturally to me. Of course he knows/sees perfectly well where Higuain - who is focusing on the ball, doens't see Neuer coming and hasn't even time to brace before impact - is going. And this was'nt a regualr jump for a high ball in the penalty box: Neuer came running at full speed.
Fortunately this all ended well and I still think Germany deserved to win the cup.
----------------------------
"Music is the frozen tapioca in the ice chest of history."
"Shit!... No shit, awright!"
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-07-14 17:37 by Greg.
Best actor, and Best Supporting Actor?
A clean sweep!
Yep, and there is a direct line between the Dutch school of play (Cruijff's and van Gaal's) and the Spanish of Guardiola and Barcelona. So in a way, in teaching out neighbours indirectly to play an attacking game, we Dutch won the WC as well.
----------------------------
"Music is the frozen tapioca in the ice chest of history."
"Shit!... No shit, awright!"
And maybe you can jump higher with your knee up?
Well, I'm perfectly fine Silver.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
The Worst.
()
Date: July 14, 2014 16:16
Quote
GregQuote
ParachuteMan
I can see why people may have had flashbacks of Schumacher vs Battiston in 1982, but this was quite different. Neuer clearly hit the ball before he collided with Higuain, therefore it wasn't foul play.
It's not really relevant whether Neuer hit the ball: it was his raised knee that was there for only one purpose: to torpedo Higuain. It was a vicious attack.
It reminded me a bit of this episode from Norwegian football, where the German goalkeeper Heinz Muller knocked out Geir Ludvig Fevang who broke his jaw.
No action was taken by the referee, no card, no penalty. Fevang could have been killed. Most referees seems to protect goalkeepers in every situation. Whenever they fall down in the box, whether it's contact or not, they're given a free kick.
[www.youtube.com]
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: July 14, 2014 16:17
I thought Messi did a fairly good match, albeit not as outstanding as he sometimes is.
Remember, he is constantly being pushed, held pinched and kicked - more than other striker. Ending up as Argentina's top scorer is impressive compared to his last WC, imo.
Wasted? Nope.
PS: I enjoyed your post, kleerie. But by removing the offside rules, fotball would be a drastically different game.
Remember, he is constantly being pushed, held pinched and kicked - more than other striker. Ending up as Argentina's top scorer is impressive compared to his last WC, imo.
Wasted? Nope.
PS: I enjoyed your post, kleerie. But by removing the offside rules, fotball would be a drastically different game.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
gimmelittledrink
()
Date: July 14, 2014 16:18
Neuer was probably retailating for the hit on Christian Kramer, which was much worse, by the way.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
The Worst.
()
Date: July 14, 2014 16:19
But congratulations to Germany.
They were the best team after all.
Impressive results against Portugal and Brazil.
What handed them the title in the end was the overall quality of the squad.
There's not many teams that could have left out Götze, Schürrle and Podolski from the starting 11.
They were the best team after all.
Impressive results against Portugal and Brazil.
What handed them the title in the end was the overall quality of the squad.
There's not many teams that could have left out Götze, Schürrle and Podolski from the starting 11.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
The Worst.
()
Date: July 14, 2014 16:27
Quote
gimmelittledrink
Neuer was probably retailating for the hit on Christian Kramer, which was much worse, by the way.
In that case it was unfair to hit Higuain.
But the Kramer incident was quite serious.
The linesman was 15 meters away from it.
How could they play on for so long?
Too many head injuries have been ignored in this World Cup.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
muenke
()
Date: July 14, 2014 16:39
Quote
silkcut1978_Quote
muenke
It´s Kind of strange to read how many persons think about who was the best player, best goal keeper, best defender, etc. Ronaldo? Messi? Neymar? Müller? Robben? Who cares? ...
Maybe you ask this question because the German team is a bunch of craftsmen with not a single excellent player but enormous success as a team? Just speculating...
Personally I prefer Robben to Schweinsteiger - this is like Art compared to heavy labor.
Congrats anyway
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: July 14, 2014 16:52
Agree with Kleermaker partially: The offside rule should be modified. And a goal in extra time should end the game. Why risk another tie and shootout? AND if they must do shootouts, move the ball back so the likelihood of success would be more like 50% instead of 90%, a better test of skill for each player than the nearly-automatic penalty kick.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
ParachuteMan
()
Date: July 14, 2014 16:52
Quote
GregQuote
ParachuteMan
I can see why people may have had flashbacks of Schumacher vs Battiston in 1982, but this was quite different. Neuer clearly hit the ball before he collided with Higuain, therefore it wasn't foul play.
It's not really relevant whether Neuer hit the ball: it was his raised knee that was there for only one purpose: to torpedo Higuain. It was a vicious attack.
It must be relevant if Neuer hit the ball, as opposed to just going for the opponent. I am only an occasional goalkeeper myself, but I know it from people who are goalkeepers that they get trained to lift their knees when jumping high to protect themselves, so this becomes an automatic reaction, rather than an intention to bring down the opponent. Whether this should be allowed considering the added risk of injury to the opponent is a good question, but it is standard practice at the moment and it doesn't usually get penalized. If you look at it carefully, Neuer's gaze is completely fixed on the ball until the moment he clears it, so in my eyes the "vicious attack" is on the ball, not the opponent. Football is a rough game and the risk of injury is always there even when the play is fair, it's a part of the game (I'm happy that Higuain escaped serious injury in this case).
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
ParachuteMan
()
Date: July 14, 2014 16:54
Quote
The Worst.Quote
GregQuote
ParachuteMan
I can see why people may have had flashbacks of Schumacher vs Battiston in 1982, but this was quite different. Neuer clearly hit the ball before he collided with Higuain, therefore it wasn't foul play.
It's not really relevant whether Neuer hit the ball: it was his raised knee that was there for only one purpose: to torpedo Higuain. It was a vicious attack.
It reminded me a bit of this episode from Norwegian football, where the German goalkeeper Heinz Muller knocked out Geir Ludvig Fevang who broke his jaw.
No action was taken by the referee, no card, no penalty. Fevang could have been killed. Most referees seems to protect goalkeepers in every situation. Whenever they fall down in the box, whether it's contact or not, they're given a free kick.
[www.youtube.com]
I wasn't aware of the Heinz Müller episode, but again I can see why one would be reminded of it after last night. Still, this is a different case, as it seems from the video that the keeper deliberately lifts his left leg against the opponent after catching the ball.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: July 14, 2014 16:56
Quote
71Tele
Agree with Kleermaker partially: The offside rule should be modified. And a goal in extra time should end the game. Why risk another tie and shootout? AND if they must do shootouts, move the ball back so the likelihood of success would be more like 50% instead of 90%, a better test of skill for each player than the nearly-automatic penalty kick.
They tried sudden death/golden goal before. I'm not sure if there are many who miss it.
After all, we want as much football as possible
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
ParachuteMan
()
Date: July 14, 2014 16:59
Quote
gimmelittledrink
Neuer was probably retailating for the hit on Christian Kramer, which was much worse, by the way.
I think there are valid arguments why Neuer's save was not foul play, but retaliation is certainly not one of them. The Kramer scene in my view was a similar situation, a bad clash, but not foul. As it happened, Kramer suffered the bigger injury, but it could also have ended the other way around.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:04
Quote
DandelionPowderman
I thought Messi did a fairly good match, albeit not as outstanding as he sometimes is.
Remember, he is constantly being pushed, held pinched and kicked - more than other striker. Ending up as Argentina's top scorer is impressive compared to his last WC, imo.
Wasted? Nope.
PS: I enjoyed your post, kleerie. But by removing the offside rules, fotball would be a drastically different game.
Messi lacked condition. He also did vomit during the match. Says enough to me. Despite all that he remained a factor to reckon with. But the 'normal' Messi would have scored that goal with his left foot.
You forget that the off side rule was invented because there were so many goals each match. Results like 7-3 or 6-5 were normal. Besides the players are so much more athletic and fast now, the defenders almost always stronger than the strikers. Even against football dwarfs like Luxembourg, Malta, Lichtenstein and the like you don't see big results anymore.
Another issue: the measures of both the field and the goal and the number of players are from the very beginning of football when, as said, the players were much slower and much less athletic and fast than they are now, the goalkeepers also much shorter. A totally different game really.
So the least they can do to make the games more attractive, to see more goals is deleting the off side rule. An alternative would be to reduce the number of players to 10, so that there's more room to attack. Another thing is to make the goal at least higher than it is now, maybe even also wider. Bigger fields is not an option of course.
But I know too well how conservative football is: not using video afterwards, accepting so many obvious arbitrage faults, letting a team play with 10 against 11 when the '11-team' has kicked a player out of the match, instead of banning the offender for at least the injury time. So many irrational and conservative things in football.
As for the tournament, the group stage was the most fun period, because in the beginning teams take risks. From the knock-out stages on, the matches became dramatically less attractive, with the exception of the Belgian/American match. The number of goals also drastically diminished, except during that idiot game between a hopeless and headless Brazil and Germany (which was in hindsight not an exception, as the game Brazil against the Dutch showed). The staggering weakness of a Neymar-less Brazil was the most conspicuous phenomenon of the whole tournament anyway.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:08
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
71Tele
Agree with Kleermaker partially: The offside rule should be modified. And a goal in extra time should end the game. Why risk another tie and shootout? AND if they must do shootouts, move the ball back so the likelihood of success would be more like 50% instead of 90%, a better test of skill for each player than the nearly-automatic penalty kick.
They tried sudden death/golden goal before. I'm not sure if there are many who miss it.
After all, we want as much football as possible
A World Cup should not be decided by a shootout. If, after a very long game, someone finally breaks a draw, that should be enough to end the game. Why have someone score in extra time and then possibly STILL end in a draw (and thus, a shootout)? Makes no sense to me, but then again, I am only an American with casual knowledge of the game.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:08
I agree with your last paragraph, kleerie
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:11
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
71Tele
Agree with Kleermaker partially: The offside rule should be modified. And a goal in extra time should end the game. Why risk another tie and shootout? AND if they must do shootouts, move the ball back so the likelihood of success would be more like 50% instead of 90%, a better test of skill for each player than the nearly-automatic penalty kick.
They tried sudden death/golden goal before. I'm not sure if there are many who miss it.
After all, we want as much football as possible
I agree: sudden death during the official playing time is ... sudden death, not very satisfying. But they should invent another way to decide the game. The penalty shoot-out isn't attractive either. Maybe the golden goal after 120 minutes, that would be fun. Or exchanging the penalties for a real shoot-out: the player playing the ball from the middle line on while the goalkeeper is free to come out whenever he wishes. Don't they decide every draw in Japan in that way?
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
Koen
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:12
-
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-07-14 17:12 by Koen.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-07-14 17:12 by Koen.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:13
Quote
DandelionPowderman
I agree with your last paragraph, kleerie
O well, another conservative football official.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
BroomWagon
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:18
In this World Cup, I think there was one play where a goalkeeper got a knee to the head during the run of play, that would be dire as well. Also, every so often, a goalkeeper will even get kicked in the face so it goes both ways. You certainly don't want it to be a war out there. Good defending should keep out most goal opportunities to begin with.
In 1968, the Euro Cup was decided by flipping a coin to decide the winner of the tournament. After I heard that, as bad as shootouts are and I don't like them, I'd go with the shootout. Now as to whether they should play on and on as in NHL ice hockey, that would be another question.
The Argentina game became a bit like the Algeria game. Tests of physical endurance as well. The team defending more seemed to be the more tired team and ultimately losing.
In 1968, the Euro Cup was decided by flipping a coin to decide the winner of the tournament. After I heard that, as bad as shootouts are and I don't like them, I'd go with the shootout. Now as to whether they should play on and on as in NHL ice hockey, that would be another question.
The Argentina game became a bit like the Algeria game. Tests of physical endurance as well. The team defending more seemed to be the more tired team and ultimately losing.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:22
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Not to forget Arjen Robben, imo the best player in this tournament.
The awards for acting are announced in the 'fall'.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:26
Quote
ParachuteManQuote
GregQuote
ParachuteMan
I can see why people may have had flashbacks of Schumacher vs Battiston in 1982, but this was quite different. Neuer clearly hit the ball before he collided with Higuain, therefore it wasn't foul play.
It's not really relevant whether Neuer hit the ball: it was his raised knee that was there for only one purpose: to torpedo Higuain. It was a vicious attack.
It must be relevant if Neuer hit the ball, as opposed to just going for the opponent. I am only an occasional goalkeeper myself, but I know it from people who are goalkeepers that they get trained to lift their knees when jumping high to protect themselves, so this becomes an automatic reaction, rather than an intention to bring down the opponent. Whether this should be allowed considering the added risk of injury to the opponent is a good question, but it is standard practice at the moment and it doesn't usually get penalized. If you look at it carefully, Neuer's gaze is completely fixed on the ball until the moment he clears it, so in my eyes the "vicious attack" is on the ball, not the opponent. Football is a rough game and the risk of injury is always there even when the play is fair, it's a part of the game (I'm happy that Higuain escaped serious injury in this case).
What Parachute Man said. Knee lift looked as though it was to protect himself.
A hard hit but that's the nature of the game.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:27
Quote
treaclefingersThe awards for acting are announced in the 'fall'.Quote
DandelionPowderman
Not to forget Arjen Robben, imo the best player in this tournament.
He deserves the both them!
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:30
Quote
DandelionPowderman
I agree with your last paragraph, kleerie
There is a potentially dangerous situation arising here. We are moreorless in agreement with kleer on a few recent posts. Something must be going wrong! >
<Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-07-14 18:17 by Silver Dagger.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:31
Quote
Silver DaggerQuote
DandelionPowderman
I agree with your last paragraph, kleerie
There is a potentially dangerous arising here. We are moreorless in agreement with kleer on a few recent posts. Something must be going wrong! >
I meant it! It wasn't just because I want him back full time
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
Greg
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:36
Quote
ParachuteManQuote
GregQuote
ParachuteMan
I can see why people may have had flashbacks of Schumacher vs Battiston in 1982, but this was quite different. Neuer clearly hit the ball before he collided with Higuain, therefore it wasn't foul play.
It's not really relevant whether Neuer hit the ball: it was his raised knee that was there for only one purpose: to torpedo Higuain. It was a vicious attack.
It must be relevant if Neuer hit the ball, as opposed to just going for the opponent. I am only an occasional goalkeeper myself, but I know it from people who are goalkeepers that they get trained to lift their knees when jumping high to protect themselves, so this becomes an automatic reaction, rather than an intention to bring down the opponent. Whether this should be allowed considering the added risk of injury to the opponent is a good question, but it is standard practice at the moment and it doesn't usually get penalized. If you look at it carefully, Neuer's gaze is completely fixed on the ball until the moment he clears it, so in my eyes the "vicious attack" is on the ball, not the opponent. Football is a rough game and the risk of injury is always there even when the play is fair, it's a part of the game (I'm happy that Higuain escaped serious injury in this case).
Interesting points, PM, still not convinced though: Neuer's jumping with his knee pointing outward just doesn't look naturally to me. Of course he knows/sees perfectly well where Higuain - who is focusing on the ball, doens't see Neuer coming and hasn't even time to brace before impact - is going. And this was'nt a regualr jump for a high ball in the penalty box: Neuer came running at full speed.
Fortunately this all ended well and I still think Germany deserved to win the cup.
----------------------------
"Music is the frozen tapioca in the ice chest of history."
"Shit!... No shit, awright!"
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-07-14 17:37 by Greg.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
RobertJohnson
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:38
The winning of the championship is due to the intense youth development programmes of the DFB (German Football Association). Not to forget in this discussion: Joachim Löw was and is a great admirer of the Spanish soccer. There are intense "Spanish influences" on German clubs and the national team, last, but not least by Pep Gardiola, the team manager of Bayern München.
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:41
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
treaclefingersThe awards for acting are announced in the 'fall'.Quote
DandelionPowderman
Not to forget Arjen Robben, imo the best player in this tournament.
He deserves the both them!
Best actor, and Best Supporting Actor?
A clean sweep!
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
Greg
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:42
Quote
RobertJohnson
The winning of the championship is due to the intense youth development programmes of the DFB (German Football Association). Not to forget in this discussion: Joachim Löw was and is a great admirer of the Spanish soccer. There are intense "Spanish influences" on German clubs and the national team, last, but not least by Pep Gardiola, the team manager of Bayern München.
Yep, and there is a direct line between the Dutch school of play (Cruijff's and van Gaal's) and the Spanish of Guardiola and Barcelona. So in a way, in teaching out neighbours indirectly to play an attacking game, we Dutch won the WC as well.
----------------------------
"Music is the frozen tapioca in the ice chest of history."
"Shit!... No shit, awright!"
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
Koen
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:46
Quote
treaclefingers
Knee lift looked as though it was to protect himself.
And maybe you can jump higher with your knee up?
Re: OT: World Cup 2014
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: July 14, 2014 17:51
Quote
Silver DaggerQuote
DandelionPowderman
I agree with your last paragraph, kleerie
There is a potentially dangerous arising here. We are moreorless in agreement with kleer on a few recent posts. Something must be going wrong! >
Well, I'm perfectly fine Silver.
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