<...and when you disparagingly say Mick Jagger's voice>



No disagreement about the importance of Mick's voice - but it hardly makes the song alone...

a great read ! and some nice and friendly banter (opinions ) ,

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Doxa

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His Majesty

As an experiment/new years resolution I am putting my real Rolling Stones point of view to bed for 2014. I think it's best for my own sanity as well as the sanity and patience of others. haha.

I must say, listening to the Kansas City live recording with Richards, Taylor & Wood has done much to ease my obsession with this real thing stuff. I'm placing it third in my post Jones fav live stones recordings. Hyde Park being 1st, Ya-Ya's being 2nd.

- Doxa

it's 2014 , HM is the new president of the taylorites !

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drbryant
I think you guys are on the wrong track. I don't think DWMD has anything to do with goth. To me It's swampy blues-rock, like Born on the Bayou.

not a bad comparison .

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GOO
Black and blue should be added to the big 4 or 5

as for the original thread the big four surely means consecutive albums ? so for the big five GHS would be the obvious choice.

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DandelionPowderman
<...and when you disparagingly say Mick Jagger's voice>



No disagreement about the importance of Mick's voice - but it hardly makes the song alone...

A little delayed answer: I was slow in adding "only" in front of "Mick Jagger's voice".

More important now: To me I think it is most of all how the melody goes, that, coworking with how it is sung, that gives me an impression of a gothic (or proto-gothic) song.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 17:34 by Witness.

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
<...and when you disparagingly say Mick Jagger's voice>



No disagreement about the importance of Mick's voice - but it hardly makes the song alone...

A little delayed answer: I was slow in adding "only" in front of "Mick Jagger's voice".

More important now: To me I think it is most of all how the melody goes, that, coworking with how it is sung, that gives me an impression of a gothic (or proto-gothic) song.

Not to forget the scary sound of the non-riff guitar and the scary screams.
As for any musical relation with Can You Hear The Music: I don't see it. Can You Hear rather refers to MM from Sticky F. Dreamy and melancholic. GHS is really great because of its mood. Before I did compare it to an afterparty, Exile being the party in full daylight. Afterparties can be interesting indeed.

You don't hear the scary mood Keith's guitar, Billy's clavinet and the subtle triangle sounds create on CYHTM? MM is mainly a super sweet ballad. CYHTM only touches that feeling in the bridges only.

One doesn't have to scream or sing about 44s to get there, you know



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 19:31 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman
You don't hear the scary mood Keith's guitar, Billy's clavinet and the subtle triangle sounds create on CYHTM? MM is mainly a super sweet ballad. CYHTM only touches that feeling in the bridges only.

One doesn't have to scream or sing about 44s to get there, you know

It's quite interesting Dandie how we differ in this matter. I never would call MM sweet, let alone super sweet. Its mood is rather that of estrangement. Not very sweet, ain't it? Can You Hear The Music doesn't sound scary to me, it has a melancholic feel to it. At least, that's my emotional interpretation, so to speak. Now I finally think I understand why the two of us differ so much in estimating and appreciating Stones music: we have simply a different emotional interpretation mechanism!

Where is the melancholy during the intro and the verses on CYHTM? After all that is 80% of the song. I told you I agreed about the two (or is it three?) bridges

I share your sentiments on MM, but still think the main melody line is sweet, with it's falsettos and the back up guitar. At the same time it's both sad and longing.

For me it's easy two have two thoughts in my head at the same time here.

No way in my book. If I allowed 5, the 5th would be UK Aftermath.
"Dancing with Mr. D" is their worst ever and practically kills the LP for me. Just my important opinion LOL

Funny, a lot of debate over "Mr. D" against "Can Your Hear the Noise"... who like the one most, and have a privilege to use most accurate describing words...

Anyway, both of them mean to me about the weakest moments The Stones had by then put on the record. One is an unfailed attempt to sound dangerous and scary, the other is just a filler with no musical attributes, a poor man's left-over from SATANIC MAJESTIES (where is Brian Jones when he is needed?). Ugh.

Still both of them are better and more interesting than anything they have done since, say, TATTOO YOU.

Just put the thing on perspective...

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-10 05:14 by Doxa.

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DandelionPowderman
Merely a continuance of stuff like Stray Cat Blues, Midnight Rambler or Ventilator Blues - only tamer and more one-dimensional, imo.

Interesting. Where exactly is the repeated chorus, asking people to sing-along and move their asses, in those three?

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-10 04:57 by Doxa.

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Witness

Apart from that, Stones songs are usually first of all Stones songs, then with more or less pronounced elements of, for instance, disco as "Miss You". And when you, disparagingly, say only Mick Jagger's voice, my answer is that his voice to me is one of their most formidable instruments.

Don't worry. For some people it is only guitars guitars guitars, backed up a bit with drums and bass, all that is matters. How the melody line goes, how Jagger sings, and what the lyrical content is, is just secondary, not adding any substantive...

- Doxa

P.S Thanks for your kind words a few post ago. A bit too much, but you know... Give and take, that's all what is all about, all of us inspiring each other, let the conversation go on...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-10 05:20 by Doxa.

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman
Merely a continuance of stuff like Stray Cat Blues, Midnight Rambler or Ventilator Blues - only tamer and more one-dimensional, imo.

Interesting. Where exactly is the repeated chorus, asking people to sing-along and move their asses, in those three?

- Doxa

SCB: "Oh yeah, you're a strange stray cat..."
VB: "Some kind of ventilator" Whatcha gonna do about it, whatcha gonna do..."
MR: "I said, oh yeah, oh yeah" (maybe the Stones's #1 singalong number)

But it doesn't matter about the choruses, I was merely talking about the dark feel and "gothic" elements of the songs. Singalong choruses of course has nothing to do with goth rock. What did you have in mind here?

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Doxa

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Witness

Apart from that, Stones songs are usually first of all Stones songs, then with more or less pronounced elements of, for instance, disco as "Miss You". And when you, disparagingly, say only Mick Jagger's voice, my answer is that his voice to me is one of their most formidable instruments.

Don't worry. For some people it is only guitars guitars guitars, backed up a bit with drums and bass, all that is matters. How the melody line goes, how Jagger sings, and what the lyrical content is, is just secondary, not adding any substantive...

This makes you look a bit foolish, Doxa. You might wanna edit this one?

Witness obviously totally misunderstood my post, as I wasn't dissing Mick or the importance of his vocals at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-10 10:24 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness
"Dancing with Mr. D" was before the gothic scene. And it had not to be copied to be a forerunner, added expression: not necessarily the first one. And it may give a description of the song in a Stones context that to some listeners, not all, is a little more inspiring than "rocker".

OK: Thank you!

That's because there aren't that many gothic elements in the song musically. With musically I mean that the song is basically a blues groove. It is Mick and the lyrics that gives the feel you well-deservedly get credit for here. I mean, gothic rock might not be correct - more like a blues rocker dressed in gothic clothes, imo.

However, listen to the tremolo guitar in Going Home, as well as some of the instrumental parts of it, before dismissing it in this context.

Apparently, how I experience the melody (which you ignore) and then Mick's singing and the lyrics are not enough to make it a gothic song. It is not accepted. Instead (the disparaging bit, in that those elements do not count) you are able to state simply that "the song is basically a blues groove". And now you say that I "obviously" have misunderstood you.

I was a little amazed yesterday at your post, addressed to kleermaker, in the following concerning the oneliner about "Moonlight Mile", wrote a response, but abstained from sending it.

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DandelionPowderman
You don't hear the scary mood Keith's guitar, Billy's clavinet and the subtle triangle sounds create on CYHTM? MM is mainly a super sweet ballad. CYHTM only touches that feeling in the bridges only.

One doesn't have to scream or sing about 44s to get there, you know

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-10 10:55 by Witness.

You still don't get what I was saying, Witness. It's getting a bit boring.

<It is Mick and the lyrics that gives the feel>

Do you disagree with this? Is that a controversial statement? Do the vocals bring "MANY gothic elements in the song musically"? No!

My point: This song is a combination of elements tied together. Mick's vocals, Keith's back up vocals, Keith's and Taylor's guitars, Billy's organ, Charlie's drumming and the bass playing, Nicky's piano and the percussion/congas.

When the instrumentation comes across as a bluesy, swampy, mid-tempo rock song, it doesn't necessarily help what Mick does - because he can't re-define that song by himself, genre-wise. He could even have cited his own pure gothic literature, and the song would still not have more than a few gothic elements.

It was compared to Mr D and especially CYHTM I said MM was super sweet, and I stand by it. The two former songs are way more dirty and less melodic (except for the bridges in CYHTM).

Mick Taylor's guitar playing on MM is excellent AND super sweet, and for me it does a lot of the song, together with Mick's vocals (which alternate from sweet and longing to airy and dreamy).

Where have I said that I ignored the melody? I haven't.

However, there are very few notes in this melody - and they're all bluesy. Strip the band away and hum it. What do you got?

Blues.

Thing is, it just isn't a very melodic song. It is about death, I give you that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-10 11:18 by DandelionPowderman.

My employer does not pay me for posting on IORR. That my posts tend to be boring to you does not help. So I must postpone this exchange of views for now.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-10 11:25 by Witness.

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DandelionPowderman

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman
Merely a continuance of stuff like Stray Cat Blues, Midnight Rambler or Ventilator Blues - only tamer and more one-dimensional, imo.

Interesting. Where exactly is the repeated chorus, asking people to sing-along and move their asses, in those three?

- Doxa

SCB: "Oh yeah, you're a strange stray cat..."
VB: "Some kind of ventilator" Whatcha gonna do about it, whatcha gonna do..."
MR: "I said, oh yeah, oh yeah" (maybe the Stones's #1 singalong number)

But it doesn't matter about the choruses, I was merely talking about the dark feel and "gothic" elements of the songs. Singalong choruses of course has nothing to do with goth rock. What did you have in mind here?

Because I don't see there much "continuance" as songs (for example, taking the distinguishable 'poppish' or 'funky' chorus of "Mr. D" the other three do not have). But I see, you are now talking about "dark feel" and, surprisingly, "gothic elements". But, for example, the fragile guitar riff gives a way different feel to "Mr. D" compared to others, me thinks. The others are more straight-forward blues numbers, and played with much rawer touch.

- Doxa

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DandelionPowderman
Singalong choruses of course has nothing to do with goth rock. What did you have in mind here?

It depends on the words and/or melody.

<But, for example, the fragile guitar riff gives a way different feel to "Mr. D" compared to others, me thinks.>

Ventilator Blues is similarly built. And the MR is "fragile" on LIB as well.

SCB starts with a guitar alone as well, but is more dangerous from the go, imo.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-10 12:25 by DandelionPowderman.

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman
Singalong choruses of course has nothing to do with goth rock. What did you have in mind here?

It depends on the words and/or melody.

There are always exceptions, but I doubt it's the normal practise - that was my point

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DandelionPowderman

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman
Singalong choruses of course has nothing to do with goth rock. What did you have in mind here?

It depends on the words and/or melody.

There are always exceptions, but I doubt it's the normal practise - that was my point

There are sing alongs at Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath concerts, for example, plenty of gothic imagery in their lyrics and melodies.

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman
Singalong choruses of course has nothing to do with goth rock. What did you have in mind here?

It depends on the words and/or melody.

There are always exceptions, but I doubt it's the normal practise - that was my point

There are sing alongs at Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath concerts, for example, plenty of gothic imagery in their lyrics and melodies.

That's pop music

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DandelionPowderman

That's pop music

With gothic lyrics and melody.

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman

That's pop music

With gothic lyrics and melody.

"...hell and fire was spawned to be released..."

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DandelionPowderman


"...hell and fire was spawned to be released..."

Not sure of you are trying to say there aren't gothic lyrics aplenty or not?

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Witness
My employer does not pay me for posting on IORR. That my posts tend to be boring to you does not help. So I must postpone this exchange of views for now.

That includes reading my posts more thoroughly before you reply to them as well.

Your posts aren't boring. This misunderstanding is.

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman


"...hell and fire was spawned to be released..."

Not sure of you are trying to say there aren't gothic lyrics aplenty or not?

Just reciting some old school Maiden

When I first bought Goat Heads Soup on vinyl & as usual was in anticipation of hearing side 1 song 1 I was bitterly disappointed with DWMD as it did not rock or flow in the groove as a normal opening LP song by the Stones.
Even to this day some 40 years later I skip DWMD but am happy to listen to the other songs on GHS.
However there are some really good songs on this album and rate them as follow

Dancing with MR D - 1/5

100 Years Ago - 3/5

Coming Down Again - 3/5

Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo (Heartbreaker) 5/5

Angie - 5/5

Silver Train - 3/5

Hide Your Love - 2.5/5

Winter - 4/5

Can You Hear the Music - 2.5/5

Star Star = 4/5

Overall GHS soup is a pretty good album with a really good song collection with the exception of DWMD which is one of the guys poorest LP opening tracks and they should have left it off the album or made it the final track.

The big 4 are still -

EOMS
Sticky Fingers
Beggars Banquet
Let it Bleed

The songs on these albums have understandably not been surpassed by the English skinny cats on GHS/IORR/Black & Blue//Some Girls/Undercover/ER or Tattoo You.
If pressed I would rate GHS as being their 5th best album as long as DWMD was dropped or the final track.
On that basis then Some Girls would be no 6 Tattoo You no 7 with Aftermath at no 8.
When you realise how many good songs there are on 5 - 8
and add them to the Big 4 my goodness how the Stones have
spoiled us with a whole array of excellent album songs from 1966 - 1981.
It is often said that you can have too much of a good thing and unfortunately
many Stones fans have become super critical and do not fully appreciate what these skinny English cats have provided us with in the songs on the albums above.

Ps - Have left out the excellent Ya Yas as it is a live album and not a studio item,



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-11 09:14 by stones40.

What about Ya Yas?