Completely agree with the competition/rivalry/comparison thing. I'm happy to say I love them both. Been that way since 1980. Also been catching flack since then. Today, I played the new Hollywood Bowl through headphones. Tomorrow I will play it through speakers. Maybe I'll be more impressed. Keeping in mind there's probably no perfect live recording in existence. That's where The Stones have advantage, existing for so long.

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Blueranger

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slewan

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ironbelly
1. Bill-Charlie rhythm section is way better than Paul-Ringo

nobody every doubted this! Paul is most likely a better bass player than Bill, but on the other hand it's Charlie who makes the difference and there can't be any doubt that he beats Ringo by miles.
I guess one aspect in the Beatles' decision to stop touring where problems with the rhythm section (how can you play live – to a non screaming audience - when your drummer has problems in keeping the beat?). Other reasons might be more important (technical difficulties to bring the sound the Beatles achieved in the studio onto stage etc), but the rhythm section problem added to these problems

That's simply not true. Ringo was extremely innovative and had a solid groove, also live. Charlie, in the sixties at least, just bashed away and if you listen in honest to these live recordings, you can hear Charlie pumping and pushing up the tempo, while Ringo just stays there. Big difference.

Ringo was extremely innovative

I posted this before.......................btw I love his drumming

According to him it's just a handicap as a left handed playing on a right handed Drum KIT................grinning smiley

[www.youtube.com]

__________________________

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Rockman


RECORD COLLECTOR 457 -- September 2016

A slightly delayed response to this one because I've been unsuccessfully searching my pile of old auction catalogues for either this item, or one very similar.

History has meant that there are actually very few (genuine) fully signed copies of Sgt Pepper. Getting all four at the same time after 1967 was off-scale difficult, and few people had the opportunity to chase around getting them individually. Anyway..

The reason I was hunting through my catalogues was that in the late 1980s I bid at auction for a fully signed Sgt Pepper. Either this one, or one very like it, which was why I was hunting.

Sadly I got my bidding wrong. When bidding you need to know both your personal limit, AND you need to know how the auctioneer (usually) steps up bids. You then step in on a bid that will result in the item being with you on your limit, not against you. That maximises your chances.

The signed Sgt. Pepper I was bidding on was sold for £550, and £505 was my limit. ie it was with me at £500 and the other bidder got it for £50 more.

In those days (less well paid, two small kids etc) I had no further room to manovuer.

Shame really, as (even if it wasn't the one in the cutting) someone's £550 has turned into £74,000. Win some, lose some! But I did at least get a chance to handle it (as well, another time, to put on the top hat George wears on the cover shot of Help!)

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Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

The album is up on Spotify now, for those interested: [play.spotify.com]

How can anyone say with certainty that the autographs are genuine?

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Blueranger
Bill and Charlie a better rhythm section?
Ha-ha. Keep on dreaming...

The effort paid off: Not only is The Rolling Stones in Mono the most sonically satisfying version of these songs, it dramatically illuminates the group's remarkable skills as musicians, arrangers and at performing as a unit purely in service of the songs (for example, on "Good Times Bad Times," Charlie Watts just plays a bass drum). But the artist who truly emerges from the shadows is the band's eternally underrated original bassist, Bill Wyman. For decades, his innovative, melodic bass playing was buried in muddy stereo mixes. Here, it's front and center without being overwhelming, providing the connective tissue between the stinging, driving guitars and Watts' preternatural swing; the two of them are almost undoubtedly the greatest rhythm section in rock history. During this era, Wyman was the band's true soloist, zooming up and down the fretboard with a flair that's somehow flashy and understated at the same time.
[www.billboard.com]

You know, people are talking about rock music but not about an overrated guitar-based boys-band wearing the same suits

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CaptainCorella

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Rockman


RECORD COLLECTOR 457 -- September 2016

A slightly delayed response to this one because I've been unsuccessfully searching my pile of old auction catalogues for either this item, or one very similar.

History has meant that there are actually very few (genuine) fully signed copies of Sgt Pepper. Getting all four at the same time after 1967 was off-scale difficult, and few people had the opportunity to chase around getting them individually. Anyway..

The reason I was hunting through my catalogues was that in the late 1980s I bid at auction for a fully signed Sgt Pepper. Either this one, or one very like it, which was why I was hunting.

Sadly I got my bidding wrong. When bidding you need to know both your personal limit, AND you need to know how the auctioneer (usually) steps up bids. You then step in on a bid that will result in the item being with you on your limit, not against you. That maximises your chances.

The signed Sgt. Pepper I was bidding on was sold for £550, and £505 was my limit. ie it was with me at £500 and the other bidder got it for £50 more.

In those days (less well paid, two small kids etc) I had no further room to manovuer.

Shame really, as (even if it wasn't the one in the cutting) someone's £550 has turned into £74,000. Win some, lose some! But I did at least get a chance to handle it (as well, another time, to put on the top hat George wears on the cover shot of Help!)

One of the more preposterous fakes I've seen recently was a copy of the Hey Jude album, "signed" by all four Beatles, apparently all with the same black felt-tipped marker, despite the fact that by the time of the album's release (Feb. 26, 1970) the Beatles had not been together in the same place at the same time for six months, and never would be again.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2016-09-10 14:20 by tatters.

I am really digging the new, re-mastered version of "Live At The Hollywood Bowl". You can actually hear the band, and they are killing it! Paul is just amazing. Cant wait for the movie!

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ironbelly
You know, people are talking about rock music but not about an overrated guitar-based boys-band wearing the same suits

You mean these guys?

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ironbelly

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Blueranger
Bill and Charlie a better rhythm section?
Ha-ha. Keep on dreaming...

The effort paid off: Not only is The Rolling Stones in Mono the most sonically satisfying version of these songs, it dramatically illuminates the group's remarkable skills as musicians, arrangers and at performing as a unit purely in service of the songs (for example, on "Good Times Bad Times," Charlie Watts just plays a bass drum). But the artist who truly emerges from the shadows is the band's eternally underrated original bassist, Bill Wyman. For decades, his innovative, melodic bass playing was buried in muddy stereo mixes. Here, it's front and center without being overwhelming, providing the connective tissue between the stinging, driving guitars and Watts' preternatural swing; the two of them are almost undoubtedly the greatest rhythm section in rock history.

During this era, Wyman was the band's true soloist, zooming up and down the fretboard with a flair that's somehow flashy and understated at the same time.
[www.billboard.com]

You know, people are talking about rock music but not about an overrated guitar-based boys-band wearing the same suits

Oh so tired of hearing about The Beatles being the cute teddybears and The Rolling Stones being the bad guys.

Fact is, that originally, The Stones were wearing suits and ties and trying to be tasteful and selling records. When The Beatles became succesful, Oldham figured out that The Stones was going to be the opposite.

So The Stones were just as much a manipulated act who just took it upon themselves to be dirty, gritty and non-cute.

Not to mention those commecial a**-licking early pop-efforts by Jagger/Richards, trying to be Lennon/McCartney: Tell Me, Each And Every Day, Walking Through The Sleepy City etc. Horrible and manipulated crap, clearly trying to be hit-worthy.

The first clear example of Jagger/Richards' songwriting talents, were Heart Of Stone. Before that, they didn't know if they were going to were r'n'b copycats or Phil Spector or The Beatles little-brothers.

Get over it, folks. The early Stones were wanna-be-Beatles, until they figured out the agenda of being the opposite.

At least the Stones were laughing of those suits. And it was their idea to ditch them

I agree, Blueranger The Beatles being "cute teddy bears" is such nonsense. They came from dirty Liverpool, not exactly London. They toured Hamburg, popped pills, got into fights, before the Stones even existed. They got that out of their system and eventually broke new ground with their music.

It's as if there are some Stones fans that are so insecure that they automatically feel the need to knock down any mention of the Beatles because of some sort of threat to their "Stones are the best at every single thing in the history of everything" mentality. I get it if you're in grade school and lack the intellectual maturity to see past the "Beatles or Stones" so-called rivalry. But if you're in your 40s or whatever and still feel threatened when someone mentions The Beatles, well, maybe see a doctor about that?

Just played the remastered Hollywood Bowl through my speakers, and a few at high volume and I must say it's very nice. Seems pretty close to modern standards. Is it or will there be something better? I don't know. But if you at least like The Beatles I think you have to get this one. Looking forward to the new film Eight Days A Week. Like this CD I'm expecting to be further wowed!

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frankotero
Just played the remastered Hollywood Bowl through my speakers, and a few at high volume and I must say it's very nice. Seems pretty close to modern standards. Is it or will there be something better? I don't know. But if you at least like The Beatles I think you have to get this one. Looking forward to the new film Eight Days A Week. Like this CD I'm expecting to be further wowed!

I agree, Frank. The harmonies are dead-on...and they couldn't even hear each other over the screams with no monitors! And how did Giles Martin get such a good mix from a 3-track recording? This is a revelation, so glad to finally have a great-sounding live Beatles album! I do wish they had just given us both complete shows, however.

I understand the theaters carrying the movie will also screen the complete Shea Stadium concert remastered! I hope that is included in the Blu-ray!

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jlowe
How can anyone say with certainty that the autographs are genuine?

This, of course, is a universal truth.

I have some things autographed by Beatles/Stones that were done in front of me, for me, and can swear on all we hold Holy that they are genuine. But, of course, as there's no live action film of the events, why should anyone fully believe me. I know all of that.

There are "experts" who reckon that they can "validate" autographs. I'm sure that the the best of them are right most of the time, but I can't see how they can be 100% certain.

Provenance is all. I would hope that (expensive) books bought from (eg) Genesis can be considered fully valid.

It's well know that Neil Aspinall & Mal Evans did vast numbers of signings for The Beatles.

For amusement I have 2 sets of early Stones autographs which have been very closely examined by 'Someone Who Knows'. His decision was that they were either 100% valid, or were all done by Keith Richards (who, I learnt, did that from time to time). An adjudication I was happy with.

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

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CaptainCorella

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jlowe
How can anyone say with certainty that the autographs are genuine?

This, of course, is a universal truth.

I have some things autographed by Beatles/Stones that were done in front of me, for me, and can swear on all we hold Holy that they are genuine. But, of course, as there's no live action film of the events, why should anyone fully believe me. I know all of that.

There are "experts" who reckon that they can "validate" autographs. I'm sure that the the best of them are right most of the time, but I can't see how they can be 100% certain.

Provenance is all. I would hope that (expensive) books bought from (eg) Genesis can be considered fully valid.

It's well know that Neil Aspinall & Mal Evans did vast numbers of signings for The Beatles.

For amusement I have 2 sets of early Stones autographs which have been very closely examined by 'Someone Who Knows'. His decision was that they were either 100% valid, or were all done by Keith Richards (who, I learnt, did that from time to time). An adjudication I was happy with.

Bill was quoted a few years ago as saying they all did that . Rather than pass something around the room and have everyone sign it, they found that it was faster and easier for each of them to just grab a pile of stuff and sign all five names on each item themselves.

Btw, I decided to do a little research today on the rarity of signed late-period Beatles albums, and discovered that there is indeed one known copy of the Let It Be album that has four authenticated signatures on it. As the story goes, John signed a copy for a fan in 1975. George signed a different copy in the early 1990s. Ringo added his signature to the copy George signed in 2006. A top-notch paper restorer then expertly "melded" the two album covers together, creating a composite cover with three signatures, and Paul signed it in 2010.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-09-11 03:25 by tatters.

Btw, I decided to do a little research today on the rarity of signed late-period Beatles albums, and discovered that there is indeed one known copy of the Let It Be album that has four authenticated signatures on it. As the story goes, John signed a copy for a fan in 1975. George signed a different copy in the early 1990s. Ringo added his signature to the copy George signed in 2006. A top-notch paper restorer then expertly "melded" the two album covers together, creating a composite cover with three signatures, and Paul signed it in 2010.

Sorry, but my my standards that's not A fully signed album. It's two fully signed albums that have been cut & pasted. A curio, not a real object.

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

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CaptainCorella
Btw, I decided to do a little research today on the rarity of signed late-period Beatles albums, and discovered that there is indeed one known copy of the Let It Be album that has four authenticated signatures on it. As the story goes, John signed a copy for a fan in 1975. George signed a different copy in the early 1990s. Ringo added his signature to the copy George signed in 2006. A top-notch paper restorer then expertly "melded" the two album covers together, creating a composite cover with three signatures, and Paul signed it in 2010.

Sorry, but my my standards that's not A fully signed album. It's two fully signed albums that have been cut & pasted. A curio, not a real object.

Paul must have thought it was "real" or he wouldn't have signed it. Of course, he thought "Free As a Bird" was a "real" Beatles record, too.

Maybe known, but anyway:

McCartney at Fallon´s show about Keith and the Stones from 3´00:

[www.youtube.com]

In the 35+ years since the release of Double Fantasy and John Lennon's tragic murder, co-producer Jack Douglas has become known for his account, bucking the myth of the sessions and attacking Yoko, when virtually no one else at the sessions has ever corroborated his version in full. He simultaneously calls it "the work I'm proudest to work on and John was the easiest to produce" and "Yoko was a nightmare and angry that I cracked the whip with her," and so on. Much like Fred Seaman, who referred to John in glowing terms and said that he was an idiot to be with Yoko, and secretly desiring to divorce her.

Douglas claims that Double Fantasy was only going to be a John album, and that Yoko went up and said "John doesn't know it, but this album's gonna have my songs too," and that he told her "you have to deal with it." He also says "John left it all in my hands, as he couldn't bear to work with Yoko," using a moment during the Imagine/Fly sessions, where he made a face when Yoko recorded vocals, which made John laugh, and Yoko fly in a rage, saying John could never be at her sessions ever again, as per the Aerosmith group auobio Walk This Way. In the Tim Riley bio of John, Douglas claimed that "John decided that his songs would be side A, and Yoko's side B. She threw a hissy fit, and John was pushed into backing down, saying 'give her what she wants.'" He also stated that the sessions turned into blistering arguments between John and Yoko, fiercely competitive with their material. Douglas also says that Seaman was railroaded, because "John was giving stuff away left and right, saying 'I don't need this crap.' There was no paper trail, which Yoko didn't realize."

Unlike similar statements, seen in the likes of Albert Goldman's hatchet job, there are indeed kernels of truth here. That said, Douglas' overriding bias and hatred of Yoko since the royalty battle over Double Fantasy has skewed his recollections considerably. It is true that John and Yoko's songs were often recorded separately, but this was by choice, as John wanted to have time with Sean, partly to assuage guilt that he was feeling about heading to the recording studio again. That said, many photos of the sessions exist, and many show John and Yoko recording together, such as "Every Man Has A Woman Who Loves Him." There were indeed arguments, as every marriage, even the most loving has them. Paul and Linda had some nasty rows, but they were never close to breaking up. Also, the idea that John refused to engage with Yoko's material holds no water. John co-produced all of his solo material and also did so with Yoko's material before and after the Lost Weekend. Some Time In New York City was conceived from the start as a collaborative album, and there is no reason Double Fantasy wouldn't be as well. And even if it wasn't, John would not be cowed and manipulated into things he didn't want to do. Those who knew him best have said repeatedly that John didn't do anything unless he wanted, and he couldn't be forced into anything. When he didn't want to do anything, John would dig in his heels and refuse to budge.

As for Fred Seaman, while John did indeed give things away, he took things John never gave away, and Yoko knew it never had, as she knew how attached he would be to something. When Seaman stole the diary that contained the stories that became Skywriting By Word Of Mouth, Seaman claimed that John entrusted him to deliver it personally to Julian, which Cynthia of course latched onto in her 2005 book. But this is simply a self-serving deflection of the fact that he was caught red-handed. He would supposedly know more about John's intentions than the love of his life?

Clearly, the feelings for Yoko have colored Douglas' recollections of the event, which of course isn't present when he recalls working with Aerosmith, Cheap Trick, Alice Cooper or Michael Monroe. I of course don't think badly of him at all, especially his renowned talent as a producer. But of course, he feels that his legal victory gives him the right to attack Yoko and rewrite history, and it should be noted for the record.

I have a selective memory of this album: WTF were they doing? I remember it had a few Lennon songs that were good, but the overall album sucked big time. It hasn't seen the light of day, nor my turntable, in 25 years or better. Thinking about the album and what I remember of it, it makes me realize Lennon needed McCartney more as a songwriting partner than is readily acknowledged.

Regarding the producer, am curious as to what was his legal victory? Does he now get (more) royalties for the album or what?

Mere months after John's murder, Douglas sued Yoko, claiming that he wasn't receiving enough in royalties and was due them for his work on the Milk and Honey sessions when that album was released. Douglas won what he was after.

....nice words Macca ...
But like all of us there are certain people in one's life
that you just can never replace .,.....

Paul McCartney - Rolling Stone 779 - October 2016



ROCKMAN

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Ross

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frankotero
Just played the remastered Hollywood Bowl through my speakers, and a few at high volume and I must say it's very nice. Seems pretty close to modern standards. Is it or will there be something better? I don't know. But if you at least like The Beatles I think you have to get this one. Looking forward to the new film Eight Days A Week. Like this CD I'm expecting to be further wowed!

I agree, Frank. The harmonies are dead-on...and they couldn't even hear each other over the screams with no monitors! And how did Giles Martin get such a good mix from a 3-track recording? This is a revelation, so glad to finally have a great-sounding live Beatles album! I do wish they had just given us both complete shows, however.

I understand the theaters carrying the movie will also screen the complete Shea Stadium concert remastered! I hope that is included in the Blu-ray!

I'm having my first spin of it now, and it does indeed sound somewhat better than that of the original album.

This show would have sounded better in mono, I'd say, though

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dmay
Thinking about the album and what I remember of it, it makes me realize Lennon needed McCartney more as a songwriting partner than is readily acknowledged.

Huh? Lennon wrote a ton of great songs without needing Paul.

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Boognish

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dmay
Thinking about the album and what I remember of it, it makes me realize Lennon needed McCartney more as a songwriting partner than is readily acknowledged.

Huh? Lennon wrote a ton of great songs without needing Paul.

True but as far as Double Fantasy goes...there are a couple really good songs, some fluff....and the Yoko songs which are truly horrible.

"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."

Macca's words about musical advice above reveals a lot about him, his ego and the fact that in all probability he surrounds himself with yes men.
He needs someone to tell him when his lyrics are too twee, the melodies sub standard etc.
Then he might raise his game and give us some decent material again. There is no denying his talent however, just wish his solo work had been more substantial.

Lennon didn't do much better. Two superb albums and a string of singles up to the lovely Happy Christmas.
A good return to form with Walls and Bridges (recorded in LA and minus Yoko's presence). But otherwise his solo efforts were pretty mediocre.
New York did nothing for his creative juices, it seemed to me.

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jlowe
Macca's words about musical advice above reveals a lot about him, his ego and the fact that in all probability he surrounds himself with yes men.
He needs someone to tell him when his lyrics are too twee, the melodies sub standard etc.
Then he might raise his game and give us some decent material again. There is no denying his talent however, just wish his solo work had been more substantial.

Lennon didn't do much better. Two superb albums and a string of singles up to the lovely Happy Christmas.
A good return to form with Walls and Bridges (recorded in LA and minus Yoko's presence). But otherwise his solo efforts were pretty mediocre.
New York did nothing for his creative juices, it seemed to me.

Regarding your first paragraph - agreed, and the same could easily be said about Mick (whether solo or with the Stones the last 30 odd years).

As for Lennon solo, lot's of hit and misses throughout his solo career.
Regarding Double Fantasy, Yoko should have never been allowed near it.
Standout tracks for me are I'm Losing You and Watching the Wheels - the latter's acoustic version released in '98 being superior imo.
I remember listening to Wheels for days after Lennon's death...poignant.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Agreed Hairball.
Another Lennon gem? Nobody Loves You When You're Down and Out from 1974. Lyrically and the haunting melody.

Mac's modern output has been superb. Electric Arguments might be one of his top three releases. Memory Almost Full, New, Flaming Pie, Run Devil Run... all amazing.