Hell, these days one word can mean so many things... I think I responded to it just so I could make sure!

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DandelionPowderman
What's baffling me is that someone describes this album as «the same old riffing» – when the album consists of lots of beautiful ballads, reggae, a delta blues, a soul number and some rockers almost without riffing at all.

We find some familiar riffing on Trouble and Substantial Damage, but those are the exceptions here.

On the contrary, CH surprised me by being extremely song-oriented instead of riff-oriented, like his two previous albums were.

True. Very true.

Even those albums the riffing wasn't so... we can say now 'oh Runnin' Too Deep' is too familiar' thanks to riffs he did on VOODOO, BRIDGES and BANG... or whatever.

So even that... what, TALK IS CHEAP has 2 songs that are what one would expect to be cranked out from Keith Richards - Take It So Hard and How I Wish.

MAIN OFFENDER with Eileen, Runnin' Too Deep and Will But You Won't having what is that Keith style.

That's not very many riff Keith tunes... there's so much more on both of those albums that with CROSSEYED HEART it just really sets in - the dude is into songs, not riffs. There is nothing "the same old" on this album except that it's Keith doing what he loves to do, which he did on his other two solo albums.

Not exactly the "same old" Keith by any means.

OK, so I am now officially confused!
If that drop-everything moment is a dub, then what does "trickery" mean??
And which word means something totally different now, and either way what does it now mean??

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman

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with sssoul

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DandelionPowderman
Might be that Koen is thinking of a few modern tricks applied on this album, like the strange ending on Amnesia,
the use of megaphone on SD, the trickery on Love Overdue and the drum chaos on Heartstopper.

Dande dear, what do you mean by "the trickery on Love Overdue", please and thank you?

And yep, that long pause between Irene and Substantial Damage takes a bit of getting used to, but it fits.

The reggae trick when the band stops, minus the keyboard which moves between the channels (love Keith's newly found caribbean accent there on "goodnight", btw ).

That is actually a dub, the reggae term for dropping the drums out. Well, that's one aspect of it - it also referred to dropping everything out of the mix except bass and drums. It means something completely different nowadays.

I might be crazy, but I'd love to hear an entire traditional dub version of the album. Would be great regardless if all but one of the songs aren't reggae - a dub version would make them 'reggae -ish'.
I can imagine Robbed Blind for example, or the faster Heartstopper, totally dissected, remixed, and carefully put back together like a jig saw puzzle.
Loads of echo, with instruments and vocals dropping in and out. Might not be to everyone's liking, but I'd find it fascinating.

When I first started listening to reggae way back when, hearing a dub version was always a bonus.Sometimes I'd hear a dub version first, and then seek out the proper version.
Other times I'd hear the proper version first, and then seek out the dub version. Even bands like the Clash were utilizing dub versions for alot of their tunes.

Crosseyed Dub....when and where can I pre-order?

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-22 19:07 by Hairball.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-10 14:42 by DandelionPowderman.

I tend to think the term Dub generally means to put emphasis on the bass and drums in a song. Sometimes this involves a complete drop out of the other instrumentation but not always. Not a trick, just a technique to change the music up, keep it interesting, in that context.

Complete Dub mixes of songs generally are instrumental versions with heavy bass and drums and other effects thrown in.

There are probably many definitions and ways to describe Dub but I'm pretty sure all of them include the word "Bass".

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-10 14:42 by DandelionPowderman.

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Naturalust
I tend to think the term Dub generally means to put emphasis on the bass and drums in a song. Sometimes this involves a complete drop out of the other instrumentation but not always. Not a trick, just a technique to change the music up, keep it interesting, in that context.

Complete Dub mixes of songs generally are instrumental versions with heavy bass and drums and other effects thrown in.

There are probably many definitions and ways to describe Dub but I'm pretty sure all of them include the word "Bass".

Vocals and guitars can also be manipulated , and additional instrumentation may be added, but you are correct when saying there are many ways to describe dub.
I think the terms "trickery" and "technique" are one in the same - just different terminology.

Here's a prime example of one of the better known reggae dubs:

Augustus Pablo - King Tubby Meets Rockers Uptown





And here is the original tune fully intact from which the dub was spawned .

Jacob Miller - Baby I Love You So




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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-22 20:17 by Hairball.

Yeah Hairball that's it, lots of definitions although there is some traditional background to the concept as you have pointed out in your reggae examples. Good stuff, imo.

I was just trying to give a broad definition of the term dub, since there seemed to be some confusion. It's cool to see Keith playing around with the technique in any case. I guess I just don't like to see the words trick or trickery used when referring to music, just tools and techniques to mix it up, experiment and make the music interesting. Trickery seems to have a negative connotation for me like someone is actually trying to fool us or something.

Thanks everybody - I think I know what "dub" means in the sense of a "dub mix",
but I didn't understand what Dande meant by "trickery". I'm still not sure I do.
Is that a standard term for some particular technique? A standard synonym in reggae circles for "technique"?
Or just a word Dande chose to use on this occasion?

In my experience, the word studio "trick" is occasionally used to define techniques which are used (and often closely guarded) in order to produce unique and great sounding tracks. The use of the cassette recorder to get the great guitar sound on Street Fighting Man could certainly be considered one!

Most of "tricks" I've seen involve mic'ing technique and selection, creative use of EQ and effects and stuff like using Kotex, towells, or other materials to dampen drum sounds and keep them from ringing too long. They are all really just techniques as far as I'm concerned and different producers often become known for their characteristic sounds based on the techniques they use and carry from session to session.

One common "trick" used to produce compelling vocals is to sweep a narrow band EQ through a solo'ed vocal track to find the sweet spot in the voice. Then using more broad band EQ to cut most the frequencies that aren't so sweet. Some engineers might just boost the sweet frequency, lots of different methods out there. Other stuff like how different engineers/producers set the delays up on the reverb units and how live engineers sometimes patch in a delay unit on a vocal with no actual delay and mix it in with the live vocal to get a doubling effect might be considered tricks, but are just techniques really.

I think it's just semantics as you suggest with sssoul, I don't think anyone is actually trying to trick us, just trying to make a great sounding song. The studio is a great place to experiment and with the crazy amount of tools and techniques available these days, new techniques and 'tricks" are being developed all the time. I generally think adding a dub section to a piece of music is more of an arrangement decision although the effects and techniques used to do so may involve some studio "tricks". Perhaps trickery is a good term to use when the result is spectacular and not understood....as in "Cool. How the hell did they do that? Some slick studio trickery there man." lol

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-10 14:43 by DandelionPowderman.

Thanks for the clarity! Rock on

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Naturalust
Yeah Hairball that's it, lots of definitions although there is some traditional background to the concept as you have pointed out in your reggae examples. Good stuff, imo.

I was just trying to give a broad definition of the term dub, since there seemed to be some confusion. It's cool to see Keith playing around with the technique in any case. I guess I just don't like to see the words trick or trickery used when referring to music, just tools and techniques to mix it up, experiment and make the music interesting. Trickery seems to have a negative connotation for me like someone is actually trying to fool us or something.

Nice to see you've had somewhat of a change of heart since we all discussed this the day it was released during the plaque hunt.
I seem to recall you commenting on the strange aspect of the instrumentation dropping out mid-song and not sounding right, and something else about the oddball "mexican horns" not fitting in.

Just goes to show that first impressions can indeed evolve and change, and the album itself is without a doubt a 'grower' for some.

It also shows that Keith is inspiring many listeners to open their minds and dig deeper into various types of music they may not fully comprehend.
Be it country, soul, blues, etc., (and in this case reggae dub), Keith is Professor spreading the word.

Perhaps someday you'll accept Substantial Damage for what it is.
Rather than an unfinished jam as you've stated, you'll see that it is a well thought out statement that's intentions are clear and simple. Banged out in 15 minutes, boom, done...next!

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-22 23:56 by Hairball.

Hairball, I said it was cool to see Keith experimenting with the technique, not that I necessarily liked the results or thought it was the best thing for that song. lol.

As far as Substantial Damage goes, my own expectations of the song were probably more responsible for my initial letdown, I had heard short clips and had assumed it was something totally different than it was. As it is I still consider it somewhat of an unfinished jam but it's still one of my favorite tracks on the record! I get it.

I play a lot of live stuff using loopers and actually appreciate jams and grooves much more than I may have given you the impression. It my case the whole thing is banged out in the time it takes to perform it, and then gone as soon as I start the next tune. Transient and quick so to speak.

If it moves me it's all good, jam, loop, incomplete song, dub mix...whatever. In fact I tend to be more moved by the musical pieces of a song than the lyrics and melody. Great music can really inspire me regardless of what the singer is doing while great lyrics and vocals will rarely move me if the accompanying music is not great.

Cheers Naturalust.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Thanks Hairball, back at you my friend.

This album far surpasses anything i thought Keith would produce at this point -- I had given up.

That said, the only songs I find particularly memorable are:

Robbed Blind
Trouble
Love Overdue
Goodnight Irene
Substantial Damage (which I hated at first)
Occasionally, Amnesia.

It all sounds good, but I skip almost everything but these anymore.
Heartstopper is the worst.
Trouble is the best.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-23 10:53 by keefriffhards.

Quote
Naturalust
In my experience, the word studio "trick" is occasionally used to define techniques which are used (and often closely guarded) in order to produce unique and great sounding tracks. The use of the cassette recorder to get the great guitar sound on Street Fighting Man could certainly be considered one!

Most of "tricks" I've seen involve mic'ing technique and selection, creative use of EQ and effects and stuff like using Kotex, towells, or other materials to dampen drum sounds and keep them from ringing too long. They are all really just techniques as far as I'm concerned and different producers often become known for their characteristic sounds based on the techniques they use and carry from session to session.

One common "trick" used to produce compelling vocals is to sweep a narrow band EQ through a solo'ed vocal track to find the sweet spot in the voice. Then using more broad band EQ to cut most the frequencies that aren't so sweet. Some engineers might just boost the sweet frequency, lots of different methods out there. Other stuff like how different engineers/producers set the delays up on the reverb units and how live engineers sometimes patch in a delay unit on a vocal with no actual delay and mix it in with the live vocal to get a doubling effect might be considered tricks, but are just techniques really.

I think it's just semantics as you suggest with sssoul, I don't think anyone is actually trying to trick us, just trying to make a great sounding song. The studio is a great place to experiment and with the crazy amount of tools and techniques available these days, new techniques and 'tricks" are being developed all the time. I generally think adding a dub section to a piece of music is more of an arrangement decision although the effects and techniques used to do so may involve some studio "tricks". Perhaps trickery is a good term to use when the result is spectacular and not understood....as in "Cool. How the hell did they do that? Some slick studio trickery there man." lol

The language can get confusing. It took me a long time to understand what dub step was along with a few others. I didn't get the dub part. I'm not sure I do get it.

I first heard the word dub in a studio. The dude made a dub of what we were doing, what I've always known as a working mix or a rough mix. Dub meaning a copy. Of course, also called dubbing, which was also done on a double cassette recorder when making a copy - seemingly specifically cassette to cassette. I doubt anyone would say "Oh I'll make you a dub" if they had a vinyl presser (which I've never known anyone to have) or CD burner (which is common). Keith used to use the term often back in the 1970s and I think he meant that he or they would make their own copies or perhaps their own versions ie recordings and he called them a dub. I've never gotten that one figured out (I think it's the 1971 Rolling Stone interview where he mentions it) with how he meant it or used it. Some of the Stones (and I think a couple of Mick's solo singles) singles had dub mixes... which from what I can tell were just long remixes featuring more bass and keyboard and hardly any vocals.

Then later on I learned it was also something in a mix of a reggae song where all the instruments except the keyboard or the bass or the drums drop out.

From my handy online etymological dictionary:
dub (v.2)
"add or alter sound on film," 1929, shortening of double; so called because it involves re-recording voices onto a soundtrack.
The type of re-mixed reggae music was so called from 1974, probably for the same reason. Related: Dubbed; dubbing.

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with sssoul
From my handy online etymological dictionary:
dub (v.2)
"add or alter sound on film," 1929, shortening of double; so called because it involves re-recording voices onto a soundtrack.
The type of re-mixed reggae music was so called from 1974, probably for the same reason. Related: Dubbed; dubbing.

That seems fairly accurate, but the term was used in reggae music before 1974 - an example is Lee "Scratch" Perry's Blackboard Jungle Dub, 1973.
Probably used even way before that, but earlier dub mixes were commonly referred to as "versions".

Here's a much longer explanation via wiki with the emphasis being on the historical significance of reggae as the pioneering foundation of the term:

Dub

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

I don't know - film dubbing and (musical) overdubbing were more like the "pioneers", no?
Not that any "pioneer" is needed.

I vaguely recall some confusion over Japanese tape recorders using the term to mean something else,
and then reggae giving it a different meaning (the one we've been discussing).

I should have added 'musically speaking' when saying 'the pioneering foundation of the term'.
And strictly speaking of Dub (not overdub) as a musical genre, it's pioneering foundations were in Jamaica.
Based in that, the wiki article is really quite accurate which isn't always the case with wiki.
As for Japanese tape recorders, I know nothing.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Dub certainly referred to just making a copy of a tape or recording at one time but as a genre or musical creation technique it obviously has a completely different meaning. Perhaps there was some cross pollination of the definitions since some of the original dubs were done using a process that involved copying the original music and adding to it and/or subtracting from it.

The term is actually still used in the film industry for exactly what with sssoul points out, but the more common tern these days is "voice over". Due to the noise made by most pro video cameras almost all the dialogue is rerecorded (or dubbed) onto the film tracks using the original actors sitting in an isolated vocal booth in a studio. The last step of mixing a film involves three engineers sitting at one huge mixing console; one mixing the music, one the dialogue and one the effects.

At least there is no confusion about what they were referring to when they dubbed Mick a knight of the realm.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-10 14:43 by DandelionPowderman.

"Dubbing, mixing, or re-recording is a post-production process used in filmmaking and video production
in which additional or supplementary recordings are mixed with original production sound to create the finished soundtrack. ...
Dubbing is sometimes confused with ADR, also known as 'additional dialogue replacement', 'additional dialogue recording' or 'looping',
in which the original actors re-record and synchronize audio segments.
Outside the film industry, the term "dubbing" most commonly refers to the replacement
of the voices of the actors shown on the screen with those of different performers speaking another language,
which is called 'revoicing' in the film industry."
- [en.wikipedia.org]

I think "voiceover" is just someone not visible on the screen narrating, isn't it?
And "overdubbing" is used in music - as in all the "post-production" we wish weren't added to concert albums.

But ... why are we talking about this in Keith's CrossEyed Heart thread??
It's like we now feel *any*thing we write will end up merged here anyway :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-23 22:07 by with sssoul.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-10 14:43 by DandelionPowderman.

Just a Gift...i love this song.

Since nobody asked: what a bloody fantastic album! Absolutely brilliant. Heartstopper, Amnesia, the brilliant Suspicious and Illusion, Just a Gift, Goodnight Irene, Substantial Damage (this sounds like a leftover from Talk is Cheap by the way), and the fabulous Lover's Plea -easily his best ever solo track.

Damn, I never ever thought he would have been able to come up with something like this.

Mathijs