Satisfaction is JJF forwards.

I think the organ Bill plays on Jumpin' Jack Flash is the reed organ/harmonium B chord which sounds like blasting horns or a harmonica.

It's obviously Nicky who's playing the piano and hammond organ.

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DandelionPowderman
Arranging is not writing, just like decorating is not drawing a building, or actually building it. Bill is not featured at all on JJF, on either bass or keyboards.
When Keith isn't featured on a tune, many of you jump to the conclusion that he had nothing to do with writing the song, whilst Bill surely wrote it - how come?

Many of the songs were written on the road, not in the studio.

IF Bill wrote the Jumpin' Jack Flash riff it is more deserving of a co-writing ccredit than Mick writing nothing song wise for Ruby Tuesday and getting a co-writing credit or Keith writing nothing song wise for Yesterday's Papers and getting a co writing credit.

The Rolling Stones song writing credit starting point is that of a business agreement. The credits as a piece of factual information as to who wrote what is made a mess due to the fact that Mick and Keith are credited on Jagger Richards songs regardless of their actual input. This also ties in with the hinted at crediting difficulties faced by other members of the band who contributed ideas which were at the very least of equal importance to either Jagger or Richards contributions on particular songs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-02-25 22:26 by His Majesty.

Ideas that made the songs better, perhaps, but I suspect they usually had a song to work out that idea on. Bill's case is unique and definitely another story...

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman
Arranging is not writing, just like decorating is not drawing a building, or actually building it. Bill is not featured at all on JJF, on either bass or keyboards.
When Keith isn't featured on a tune, many of you jump to the conclusion that he had nothing to do with writing the song, whilst Bill surely wrote it - how come?

Many of the songs were written on the road, not in the studio.

IF Bill wrote the Jumpin' Jack Flash riff it is more deserving of a co-writing ccredit than Mick writing nothing song wise for Ruby Tuesday and getting a co-writing credit or Keith writing nothing song wise for Yesterday's Papers and getting a co writing credit.

The Rolling Stones song writing credit starting point is that of a business agreement. The credits as a piece of factual information as to who wrote what is made a mess due to the fact that Mick and Keith are credited on Jagger Richards songs regardless of their actual input. This also ties in with the hinted at crediting difficulties faced by other members of the band who contributed ideas which were at the very least of equal importance to either Jagger or Richards contributions on particular songs.

That's fine if no one else is involved. If Keith writes 100% and wants to give half to Mick, then no problem that's their business. And vice versa if Mick writes 100%.

The problem is when there are others involved, then how does their agreement even apply? How do they over rule anyone else's input. I thought this band was a equal 5 way split...

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DandelionPowderman
Ideas that made the songs better, perhaps, but I suspect they usually had a song to work out that idea on. Bill's case is unique and definitely another story...

Charlie likely wrote the first two measures of Slave...I give him credit for that.

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2000 LYFH

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman
Arranging is not writing, just like decorating is not drawing a building, or actually building it. Bill is not featured at all on JJF, on either bass or keyboards.
When Keith isn't featured on a tune, many of you jump to the conclusion that he had nothing to do with writing the song, whilst Bill surely wrote it - how come?

Many of the songs were written on the road, not in the studio.

IF Bill wrote the Jumpin' Jack Flash riff it is more deserving of a co-writing ccredit than Mick writing nothing song wise for Ruby Tuesday and getting a co-writing credit or Keith writing nothing song wise for Yesterday's Papers and getting a co writing credit.

The Rolling Stones song writing credit starting point is that of a business agreement. The credits as a piece of factual information as to who wrote what is made a mess due to the fact that Mick and Keith are credited on Jagger Richards songs regardless of their actual input. This also ties in with the hinted at crediting difficulties faced by other members of the band who contributed ideas which were at the very least of equal importance to either Jagger or Richards contributions on particular songs.

That's fine if no one else is involved. If Keith writes 100% and wants to give half to Mick, then no problem that's their business. And vice versa if Mick writes 100%.

The problem is when there are others involved, then how does their agreement even apply? How do they over rule anyone else's input. I thought this band was a equal 5 way split...

Maybe I'm an arse, just like some posters think Mick and Keith are. However, I have written over 100 songs, and I would never give song writing credits when I present a written song to the band, and other band members come up with an idea to make it shine a bit more. The song is there, it can be played alone on an acoustic guitar anywhere. A nice guitar theme, a stop, a drum break or a horn/string arrangement to enhance the chorus - or even a fantastic guitar solo - won't alter that.

However, if someone said to me: "we should change this bridge to this (and then comes up with new chords/new melody lines)", THEN we're in the process of talking about writing. Or: "I've written this brilliant chorus, let's try it on your song".

It may seem difficult to comprehend, that adding something beautiful, and often crucial to the outcome, not necessarily is writing - but that's how it works.

And WHY is it anybody's business how Mick and Keith arrange things between them, re the song writing team, as long as it's not getting any concequences for others?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-02-26 14:07 by DandelionPowderman.

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Munichhilton

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DandelionPowderman
Ideas that made the songs better, perhaps, but I suspect they usually had a song to work out that idea on. Bill's case is unique and definitely another story...

Charlie likely wrote the first two measures of Slave...I give him credit for that.

"Gimme that beat, Charlie..."

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His Majesty

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stonehearted


And if you ask me, the riff for JJF is just a variation of the Satisfaction riff.

Some rythmic similarities, but note wise it's totally different.

Satisfaction is closer to the horns on Nowhere to Run than Jumpin' Jack Flash is to Satisfaction.

Exactly.

Keith: JJF is the best riff ever.
Bill: I came up with it when rehearsing with Brian and Charlie.
Keith: JJF? That's just Satisfaction backwards.
IORR: JJF? That's just Satisfaction backwards.

I think Keith and Mick deserve the writing credit for JJF. Maybe, maybe (if Bill's story is true) they could include Bill, like they've done with Ron, Leavell, Preston in the past; citing ;'inspiration by'.
Reason for this is that yes - maybe Bill wrote the actual lick. But he would have stood there with that lick and a thumb up his a--. Could he ever have turned that lick into the anthem of rock'n roll? I have played with hundreds people like this:" that have a lick, or a great riff and solo, but no song. They are noodlers, or at best weak songwriters.
And I am not only referring to lyrics, and the words of the chorus, which are already huge. But to instinctively know how to use the lick, to not overplay it, to open it up with that chorus "it's alright", and that extra strum after "gas gas gas". 3 minutes of genius by the twins. Bill should be honored.

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proudmary

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TrulyMicks

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howled
I think it's pretty well known how the Stones put their songs together from interviews and accounts from producers.

Keith would often have a riff and/or the outline of the song and a working title and Mick would often fill in the lyrics

I think that was true in the 60's, but from what I've read, Mick has been the greatest provider of song outlines for several decades now.

Mick didn't "filled in", he wrote the lyrics - no matter how Richards calls it in his book. It is not enough for him to say that he wrote all the Stones music, now he says that all the ideas for the songs are his too .
I strongly disagree that if Keith had the line Wild Horses or Beast Of Burden that the whole song is "filling" and we even don't talk about vocal melodies which were Jagger's in the majority of the songs from the beginning - I do not know what was the reason that since the second half of the 80s Richards suddenly needed to destroy the Jagger/Richards team and began claiming credit for entire Stones catalog, songs ideas and Stone's direction in generall.


this is 1994, assumed that Richards' drugs and alcohol use is more moderate than in 70s. This is "the soul" of the Stones? No way!


And exept for max 5 songs all others are Mick's lyrical ideas

Oh yes! Were you with them all the time? Complete BS, what you write here, sorry to say.

The Satisfaction riff is more similar to the "Let's Spend The Night Together" riff and chorus than to the JJF riff from a notes perpective.

The Satisfaction riff and the "Let's Spend The Night Together" riff and chorus are both basically 5th, 6th b7th notes but the Satisfaction riff chords change to the b7th chord on the b7th note whereas the "Let's Spend The Night Together" riff and chorus just stay on the same chord and it's the usual very common 5th, 6th, b7th Boogie, Chuck Berry, Status Quo etc notes.

For comparison (with the riffs in the same key)

Satisfaction would be

E chord (B notes, C# note)-> change to D chord (D note) etc

"Let's Spend The Night Together" would be

E chord (B notes, C# note, D notes) etc

The JJF riff has similar chord movement to Satisfaction ie the E chord to D chord but the riff notes are different.

The JJF riff notes after the first DA DA, anticipate the chord change from the E to D chord and when the chords do change to the D chord (on the 3rd DA) it locks the riff into the D chord.

That's what makes it so effective.

JJF

E chord (DA DA) (DA DA (change to D chord on 3rd DA) DA, DA DA DA, DA DA DA (change back up to E and repeat).

Satisfaction is similar to JJF

E chord (DA DA) (DA DA (change to D chord on 3rd DA) DA, etc

but the notes of the JJF and Satisfaction riffs are different.

Satisfaction, Let's Spend The Night Together, Jumpin' Jack Flash, seem to be just variations of the same sort of thing which Keith was very good at doing with the idea coming from "Martha and The Vandellas" "Nowhere To Run" horn riff.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 2013-02-26 13:01 by howled.

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Palace Revolution 2000
I think Keith and Mick deserve the writing credit for JJF. Maybe, maybe (if Bill's story is true) they could include Bill, like they've done with Ron, Leavell, Preston in the past; citing ;'inspiration by'.
Reason for this is that yes - maybe Bill wrote the actual lick. But he would have stood there with that lick and a thumb up his a--. Could he ever have turned that lick into the anthem of rock'n roll? I have played with hundreds people like this:" that have a lick, or a great riff and solo, but no song. They are noodlers, or at best weak songwriters.
And I am not only referring to lyrics, and the words of the chorus, which are already huge. But to instinctively know how to use the lick, to not overplay it, to open it up with that chorus "it's alright", and that extra strum after "gas gas gas". 3 minutes of genius by the twins. Bill should be honored.

Leavell got an actual credit, Preston didn't...

As for Bill, yeah, he would probably have turned that JJF riff into one of his useless dirges from the 70s...it's not like he didn't get his chance to prove his worth with all these horrible solo albums that he only got to make because he happened to have a big amp in 1963 and no ego.

At least when they credited him, they really did it properly

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DandelionPowderman
At least when they credited him, they really did it properly

Not sure if this is praising Bill or disparaging him? Maybe discrimination! As far as I know, the Stones all played on In Another Land.

I don't know why they pushed Bill this much forward all of a sudden for this track. At least, there is no doubt who wrote this song (a good one, imo, btw)

It's also the only song with the guitar tandem: Richards/Mariott:

Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Acoustic guitars: Steve Marriott & Keith Richards
Lead vocal: Bill Wyman
Background vocals: Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, Steve Marriott & Ronnie Lane
Harpsichord: Nicky Hopkins
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Organ: Ian Stewart
Mellotron: Brian Jones

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DandelionPowderman
At least when they credited him, they really did it properly

Almost like they are dis-owning it.

"This is most certainly Bill's song, ok? Everyone go that?"

Luv M&K