Tell Me :
Talk
Well, yeah, but there is always a dark side to that as well. Love Is Strong is not exactly inspiring...
So what Bill wrote in his book was a lie?
... It was totally true, & documented. Even if a plan by Oldham, not sure how that changes the facts. Mick & Keith were writing while Bill was out getting laid - read Bill's book
Bill was actually writing songs in the early days along with Mick and Keith and The Rolling Stones even recorded one of them. But as was the case with The Beatles, for whom ALO had previously worked, songwriting was encouraged by ALO to be produced by the front line players in the band. If there were to have been a third songwriter in the band, as with The Beatles, ALO would rather it had been Brian, who was encouraged at first, but whose songwriting attempts were subsequently rejected by Mick and Keith. Bill Wyman's recorded Stones composition from 1964, on the other hand, never saw the light of day, not even as a B-side, and it's a pretty solid track as far as basic mid-tempo rock songs go.
I'm not saying he 'never' tried to participate. I'm basically passing on what Bill himself said in his book.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-02-23 18:15 by LeonidP.
And just to add on ... it's been a while since I read the book, but Bill wrote this when he was bragging about how many girls that he 'notched'. He gave some insanely high number for himself, then said Brian was next ... then went on to explain why Mick & Keith did not get that many different girls back then, as they were holed up in the apt writing songs. No point in arguing w/ me about it ... go argue w/ Bill, he's the one that provided the info
... and far less interesting than the 99% of the rest of the Jagger-Richards compositions.
That's right but I'm speaking of the time and by comparison he was "better" in writing 12-bar-songs than some of theirs. In Another Land fits quite well and Downtown Suzie on Beggars Banquet wouldn't have been bad either.
I think the Stones missed the chance to establish an extra spot like the Beatles had for George (and even Ringo) and the Who for Entwistle.
Might be interesting to continue discussing which of his solo songs could have replaced which song on IORR, Black And Blue and probably Tattoo You - I already agree that there is not much that obvious on Bill's Stuff from 1992...
Yes but the Jagger/Richards songs arent plain Jagger/Richards compositions. They are also Jagger/Taylor/Richards/Jones/Wyman/Wood/Preston with major input from Hopkins and Cooder making things a whole lot more interesting.
DS was recorded in spring 1969.
Yes, it seems it was started in 1968, maybe I had that in mind.
(Probably it is easier to replace a Let It Bleed song as Beggars Banquet already had an overall acoustic/Country notion whereas it would have added something to LI
.
Anyway, it was actually considered to record another Bill song right after In Another Land. Maybe they wanted to establish another composer?!
I think that was true in the 60's, but from what I've read, Mick has been the greatest provider of song outlines for several decades now.
And the world keeps turning
And life goes on
The world keeps turning
May your heart stay strong.....
Mick didn't "filled in", he wrote the lyrics - no matter how Richards calls it in his book. It is not enough for him to say that he wrote all the Stones music, now he says that all the ideas for the songs are his too .
I strongly disagree that if Keith had the line Wild Horses or Beast Of Burden that the whole song is "filling" and we even don't talk about vocal melodies which were Jagger's in the majority of the songs from the beginning - I do not know what was the reason that since the second half of the 80s Richards suddenly needed to destroy the Jagger/Richards team and began claiming credit for entire Stones catalog, songs ideas and Stone's direction in generall.
this is 1994, assumed that Richards' drugs and alcohol use is more moderate than in 70s. This is "the soul" of the Stones? No way!
And exept for max 5 songs all others are Mick's lyrical ideas
I was looking for that picture and found it under Jo's book and already answered there. My suggestion New Barbarians Tour 1979?!
IMO without Bill's jamming Stones possibly wouldn't have recorded JJF so the true credit should've been Jagger/Richard/Wyman. Bill was the driving force this time and Mick and Keith took the idea forward. And if it's only about putting a song together then e.g. Moonlight Mile never should've credited to Keith, he only came up with a riff (as I recall reading this forum).
Listen to the piano noodling at the beginning of Flight 505, and listen carefully at 0:20 to 0:23, and tell me what riff you hear that later became the basis for one of their most celebrated songs.
We hear Stu reference Satisfaction which is essentially just a rip off of the horns from Nowhere To Run.
And if you ask me, the riff for JJF is just a variation of the Satisfaction riff.
Some rythmic similarities, but note wise it's totally different.
Satisfaction is closer to the horns on Nowhere to Run than Jumpin' Jack Flash is to Satisfaction.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: February 23, 2013 01:05
Quote
stoneheartedQuote
GasLightStreet
From what I recall Keith came up with the title and 'chorus' of Gimme Shelter and Mick wrote the rest, which Keith stated with Wild Horses as well.
Ah, the good old days, when Keith and Mick would collaborate and make each other better than they would have been individually.
Well, yeah, but there is always a dark side to that as well. Love Is Strong is not exactly inspiring...
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
LeonidP
()
Date: February 23, 2013 01:18
Quote
RedhotcarpetQuote
LeonidPQuote
Silver Dagger
... He also expressed his anger that he wasn’t given sufficient credit as a songwriter and described Sir Mick as an “egomaniac”...
which I always find quite humorous ... In Stone Alone, Bill writes that in the early days, when Mick & Keith started writing, they spent all their time, after shows, holed up & writing tunes, while Bill & Brian went to clubs to get laid (he doesn't really mention what Charlie was doing). So it seems that Bill set himself up to not partake in the writing process, and later, when he saw how profitable it became, suddenly was bitter over it.
And to be fair, the songs Bill has written on his solo albums, are just "okay" at best.
Bill also complains that he wrote Jumping Jack Flash, but most of the evidence points against that (in particular that the riff is really just a adjustment of Satisfaction).
Sorry but thats not true. Jagger/Richards was a business plan by ALO. It worked fine, but it was set up against Lennon/McCartney. Pure strategy. Necessary of course.
So what Bill wrote in his book was a lie?
... It was totally true, & documented. Even if a plan by Oldham, not sure how that changes the facts. Mick & Keith were writing while Bill was out getting laid - read Bill's book
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: February 23, 2013 01:43
Quote
LeonidPQuote
RedhotcarpetQuote
LeonidPQuote
Silver Dagger
... He also expressed his anger that he wasn’t given sufficient credit as a songwriter and described Sir Mick as an “egomaniac”...
which I always find quite humorous ... In Stone Alone, Bill writes that in the early days, when Mick & Keith started writing, they spent all their time, after shows, holed up & writing tunes, while Bill & Brian went to clubs to get laid (he doesn't really mention what Charlie was doing). So it seems that Bill set himself up to not partake in the writing process, and later, when he saw how profitable it became, suddenly was bitter over it.
And to be fair, the songs Bill has written on his solo albums, are just "okay" at best.
Bill also complains that he wrote Jumping Jack Flash, but most of the evidence points against that (in particular that the riff is really just a adjustment of Satisfaction).
Sorry but thats not true. Jagger/Richards was a business plan by ALO. It worked fine, but it was set up against Lennon/McCartney. Pure strategy. Necessary of course.
So what Bill wrote in his book was a lie?
... It was totally true, & documented. Even if a plan by Oldham, not sure how that changes the facts. Mick & Keith were writing while Bill was out getting laid - read Bill's book
Bill was actually writing songs in the early days along with Mick and Keith and The Rolling Stones even recorded one of them. But as was the case with The Beatles, for whom ALO had previously worked, songwriting was encouraged by ALO to be produced by the front line players in the band. If there were to have been a third songwriter in the band, as with The Beatles, ALO would rather it had been Brian, who was encouraged at first, but whose songwriting attempts were subsequently rejected by Mick and Keith. Bill Wyman's recorded Stones composition from 1964, on the other hand, never saw the light of day, not even as a B-side, and it's a pretty solid track as far as basic mid-tempo rock songs go.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
BILLPERKS
()
Date: February 23, 2013 02:52
NICE TUNE,NEVER HEARD IT..NICE GUITAR LEAD AND STU SOUNDS GREAT.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
LeonidP
()
Date: February 23, 2013 18:14
Quote
stoneheartedQuote
LeonidPQuote
RedhotcarpetQuote
LeonidPQuote
Silver Dagger
... He also expressed his anger that he wasn’t given sufficient credit as a songwriter and described Sir Mick as an “egomaniac”...
which I always find quite humorous ... In Stone Alone, Bill writes that in the early days, when Mick & Keith started writing, they spent all their time, after shows, holed up & writing tunes, while Bill & Brian went to clubs to get laid (he doesn't really mention what Charlie was doing). So it seems that Bill set himself up to not partake in the writing process, and later, when he saw how profitable it became, suddenly was bitter over it.
And to be fair, the songs Bill has written on his solo albums, are just "okay" at best.
Bill also complains that he wrote Jumping Jack Flash, but most of the evidence points against that (in particular that the riff is really just a adjustment of Satisfaction).
Sorry but thats not true. Jagger/Richards was a business plan by ALO. It worked fine, but it was set up against Lennon/McCartney. Pure strategy. Necessary of course.
So what Bill wrote in his book was a lie?
... It was totally true, & documented. Even if a plan by Oldham, not sure how that changes the facts. Mick & Keith were writing while Bill was out getting laid - read Bill's book
Bill was actually writing songs in the early days along with Mick and Keith and The Rolling Stones even recorded one of them...
I'm not saying he 'never' tried to participate. I'm basically passing on what Bill himself said in his book.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-02-23 18:15 by LeonidP.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
LeonidP
()
Date: February 23, 2013 18:18
Quote
LeonidPQuote
stoneheartedQuote
LeonidPQuote
RedhotcarpetQuote
LeonidPQuote
Silver Dagger
... He also expressed his anger that he wasn’t given sufficient credit as a songwriter and described Sir Mick as an “egomaniac”...
which I always find quite humorous ... In Stone Alone, Bill writes that in the early days, when Mick & Keith started writing, they spent all their time, after shows, holed up & writing tunes, while Bill & Brian went to clubs to get laid (he doesn't really mention what Charlie was doing). So it seems that Bill set himself up to not partake in the writing process, and later, when he saw how profitable it became, suddenly was bitter over it.
And to be fair, the songs Bill has written on his solo albums, are just "okay" at best.
Bill also complains that he wrote Jumping Jack Flash, but most of the evidence points against that (in particular that the riff is really just a adjustment of Satisfaction).
Sorry but thats not true. Jagger/Richards was a business plan by ALO. It worked fine, but it was set up against Lennon/McCartney. Pure strategy. Necessary of course.
So what Bill wrote in his book was a lie?
... It was totally true, & documented. Even if a plan by Oldham, not sure how that changes the facts. Mick & Keith were writing while Bill was out getting laid - read Bill's book
Bill was actually writing songs in the early days along with Mick and Keith and The Rolling Stones even recorded one of them...
I'm not saying he 'never' tried to participate. I'm basically passing on what Bill himself said in his book.
And just to add on ... it's been a while since I read the book, but Bill wrote this when he was bragging about how many girls that he 'notched'. He gave some insanely high number for himself, then said Brian was next ... then went on to explain why Mick & Keith did not get that many different girls back then, as they were holed up in the apt writing songs. No point in arguing w/ me about it ... go argue w/ Bill, he's the one that provided the info
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
JJHMick
()
Date: February 23, 2013 19:24
Goodbye Girl is by far more interesting than Jagger-Richards stuff of the same time like Grown Up Wrong or What A Shame.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
LeonidP
()
Date: February 24, 2013 05:04
Quote
JJHMick
Goodbye Girl is by far more interesting than Jagger-Richards stuff of the same time like Grown Up Wrong or What A Shame.
... and far less interesting than the 99% of the rest of the Jagger-Richards compositions.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
JJHMick
()
Date: February 24, 2013 12:06
Quote
LeonidPQuote
JJHMick
Goodbye Girl is by far more interesting than Jagger-Richards stuff of the same time like Grown Up Wrong or What A Shame.
... and far less interesting than the 99% of the rest of the Jagger-Richards compositions.
That's right but I'm speaking of the time and by comparison he was "better" in writing 12-bar-songs than some of theirs. In Another Land fits quite well and Downtown Suzie on Beggars Banquet wouldn't have been bad either.
I think the Stones missed the chance to establish an extra spot like the Beatles had for George (and even Ringo) and the Who for Entwistle.
Might be interesting to continue discussing which of his solo songs could have replaced which song on IORR, Black And Blue and probably Tattoo You - I already agree that there is not much that obvious on Bill's Stuff from 1992...
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
gotdablouse
()
Date: February 24, 2013 12:27
Had never heard that song, thanks, and indeed not bad!
Bill's songwriting is a mystery to me...a couple of good ones, like Downtown Suzie and even IAL I guess and his claim on the JJF riff, but then you have all the useless crap from his solo albums from the 70s and I won't even mention Si,Si ! It's not like he wasn't given his chance to shine...
Maybe it's his voice or total lack of taste for decent arrangements (but he had Kortchmar in the 70s, did he not listen to him?). Maybe Mick's vocals and editing and Keith's guitar would have made them listenable? We'll never know but one thing is certain he couldn't come up with anything decent on his own.
Bill's songwriting is a mystery to me...a couple of good ones, like Downtown Suzie and even IAL I guess and his claim on the JJF riff, but then you have all the useless crap from his solo albums from the 70s and I won't even mention Si,Si ! It's not like he wasn't given his chance to shine...
Maybe it's his voice or total lack of taste for decent arrangements (but he had Kortchmar in the 70s, did he not listen to him?). Maybe Mick's vocals and editing and Keith's guitar would have made them listenable? We'll never know but one thing is certain he couldn't come up with anything decent on his own.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: February 24, 2013 13:11
Quote
LeonidPQuote
JJHMick
Goodbye Girl is by far more interesting than Jagger-Richards stuff of the same time like Grown Up Wrong or What A Shame.
... and far less interesting than the 99% of the rest of the Jagger-Richards compositions.
Yes but the Jagger/Richards songs arent plain Jagger/Richards compositions. They are also Jagger/Taylor/Richards/Jones/Wyman/Wood/Preston with major input from Hopkins and Cooder making things a whole lot more interesting.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 24, 2013 14:38
Quote
JJHMick
Downtown Suzie on Beggars Banquet wouldn't have been bad either.
DS was recorded in spring 1969.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
JJHMick
()
Date: February 24, 2013 14:53
Quote
His MajestyQuote
JJHMick
Downtown Suzie on Beggars Banquet wouldn't have been bad either.
DS was recorded in spring 1969.
Yes, it seems it was started in 1968, maybe I had that in mind.
(Probably it is easier to replace a Let It Bleed song as Beggars Banquet already had an overall acoustic/Country notion whereas it would have added something to LI
.Anyway, it was actually considered to record another Bill song right after In Another Land. Maybe they wanted to establish another composer?!
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
howled
()
Date: February 24, 2013 15:03
I think it's pretty well known how the Stones put their songs together from interviews and accounts from producers.
Keith would often have a riff and/or the outline of the song and a working title and Mick would often fill in the lyrics as the band worked on it and the song was open to arrangement change until they were happy with it.
Sometimes Mick or Keith would basically have the whole song worked out before entering the studio but a lot of songs were an outline when they went to the studio.
It's still Mick and Keith's ideas and mostly them putting things together, even if the rest of the band and other musicians might get involved in it and put some polish on it.
The JJF riff might have come from Wyman jamming on the piano but Wyman didn't put the JJF song together, that was Mick and Keith.
Mick and Keith wrote the lyrics with a tough time blues verse/happy time 60s chorus, ideas together and that is not just a riff but it is structured around the riff.
Whether Wyman should have got songwriting credit, I don't know.
One possibilty might be, if Wyman came up with a riff, it might not have been exactly the same as the JJF riff but was maybe similar and Keith changed it to the final JJF riff.
There are a lot of possible things that might have happened.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-02-24 15:15 by howled.
Keith would often have a riff and/or the outline of the song and a working title and Mick would often fill in the lyrics as the band worked on it and the song was open to arrangement change until they were happy with it.
Sometimes Mick or Keith would basically have the whole song worked out before entering the studio but a lot of songs were an outline when they went to the studio.
It's still Mick and Keith's ideas and mostly them putting things together, even if the rest of the band and other musicians might get involved in it and put some polish on it.
The JJF riff might have come from Wyman jamming on the piano but Wyman didn't put the JJF song together, that was Mick and Keith.
Mick and Keith wrote the lyrics with a tough time blues verse/happy time 60s chorus, ideas together and that is not just a riff but it is structured around the riff.
Whether Wyman should have got songwriting credit, I don't know.
One possibilty might be, if Wyman came up with a riff, it might not have been exactly the same as the JJF riff but was maybe similar and Keith changed it to the final JJF riff.
There are a lot of possible things that might have happened.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-02-24 15:15 by howled.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 24, 2013 16:04
They quickly established a business minded way of doing things and that way of doing things was rarely broken. The unfair thing about their business/song writing team thing was that Mick and Keith recieved credit regardless of whether they actually contributed to the writing of a Jagger Richards credited song.
In saying that I think what Keith's says about song writing with regards to Brian Jones is pretty much spot on. Probably the most articulate and fair he's ever been about this. Listen here from about 10:55...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-02-24 16:26 by His Majesty.
In saying that I think what Keith's says about song writing with regards to Brian Jones is pretty much spot on. Probably the most articulate and fair he's ever been about this. Listen here from about 10:55...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-02-24 16:26 by His Majesty.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
BILLPERKS
()
Date: February 24, 2013 16:16
OMG,BLASPHEMY..WHAT A SHAME IS MY FA-A-AVORITE TUNE.Quote
JJHMick
Goodbye Girl is by far more interesting than Jagger-Richards stuff of the same time like Grown Up Wrong or What A Shame.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
TrulyMicks
()
Date: February 24, 2013 16:29
Quote
howled
I think it's pretty well known how the Stones put their songs together from interviews and accounts from producers.
Keith would often have a riff and/or the outline of the song and a working title and Mick would often fill in the lyrics
I think that was true in the 60's, but from what I've read, Mick has been the greatest provider of song outlines for several decades now.
And the world keeps turning
And life goes on
The world keeps turning
May your heart stay strong.....
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
proudmary
()
Date: February 24, 2013 18:27
Quote
TrulyMicksQuote
howled
I think it's pretty well known how the Stones put their songs together from interviews and accounts from producers.
Keith would often have a riff and/or the outline of the song and a working title and Mick would often fill in the lyrics
I think that was true in the 60's, but from what I've read, Mick has been the greatest provider of song outlines for several decades now.
Mick didn't "filled in", he wrote the lyrics - no matter how Richards calls it in his book. It is not enough for him to say that he wrote all the Stones music, now he says that all the ideas for the songs are his too .
I strongly disagree that if Keith had the line Wild Horses or Beast Of Burden that the whole song is "filling" and we even don't talk about vocal melodies which were Jagger's in the majority of the songs from the beginning - I do not know what was the reason that since the second half of the 80s Richards suddenly needed to destroy the Jagger/Richards team and began claiming credit for entire Stones catalog, songs ideas and Stone's direction in generall.
this is 1994, assumed that Richards' drugs and alcohol use is more moderate than in 70s. This is "the soul" of the Stones? No way!
And exept for max 5 songs all others are Mick's lyrical ideas
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
JJHMick
()
Date: February 24, 2013 19:27
Quote
proudmaryQuote
TrulyMicksQuote
howled
I think it's pretty well known how the Stones put their songs together from interviews and accounts from producers.
Keith would often have a riff and/or the outline of the song and a working title and Mick would often fill in the lyrics
I think that was true in the 60's, but from what I've read, Mick has been the greatest provider of song outlines for several decades now.
Mick didn't "filled in", he wrote the lyrics - no matter how Richards calls it in his book. It is not enough for him to say that he wrote all the Stones music, now he says that all the ideas for the songs are his too .
I strongly disagree that if Keith had the line Wild Horses or Beast Of Burden that the whole song is "filling" and we even don't talk about vocal melodies which were Jagger's in the majority of the songs from the beginning - I do not know what was the reason that since the second half of the 80s Richards suddenly needed to destroy the Jagger/Richards team and began claiming credit for entire Stones catalog, songs ideas and Stone's direction in generall.
this is 1994, assumed that Richards' drugs and alcohol use is more moderate than in 70s. This is "the soul" of the Stones? No way!
And exept for max 5 songs all others are Mick's lyrical ideas
I was looking for that picture and found it under Jo's book and already answered there. My suggestion New Barbarians Tour 1979?!
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 24, 2013 22:49
1994
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
howled
()
Date: February 25, 2013 08:18
Satisfaction riff and title, Keith, words Mick.
Paint It Black riff and probably title, Keith, words Mick.
JJF, chorus intro and maybe riff, Keith, words Mick and some Keith.
Gimme Shelter main outline, Keith, Mick words.
Midnight Rambler and Country Honk (same as Honky Tonk Women with a different arrangement), Keith and Mick.
Sympathy, Brown Sugar, Mick.
Ruby Tuesday, Keith and maybe a bit of Brian, especially on the arrangement.
Angie, mostly Keith, Mick some words.
etc etc
Later on they went their own ways a bit more I suppose.
Wyman, Jones, Watts, Hopkins, Stu etc etc can add ideas to the arrangement but were not seeming to come up with the initial ideas, and it's the initial ideas that are the most important because without them nothing can start.
[www.bassplayer.com]
"During your time with the band, beside not being formally credited with coming up with perhaps the best Stones riff ever, for “Jumping Jack Flash,” there must have been many other instances where you weren’t officially credited, as a co-songwriter.
There were lots, because all of the songs were created in the studio. You know, Keith would come in with a riff. That’s all, and over the course of a week we would come up with a song. Then Mick would write the lyrics, and it would come out on an album credited as “Jagger-Richards.” That would happen all the time.
I did get a bit disheartened that they weren’t generous enough to share, like many other bands do. Like the way the Beatles gave room for Ringo Starr and George Harrison to do their thing, and how the Who gave John Entwhistle a chance to write stuff. Where other bands shared things, the Stones didn’t. We just had to live with it or leave. So I went on and did solo albums and movie music, and I produced other artists. I got satisfaction in that way."
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-02-25 08:22 by howled.
Paint It Black riff and probably title, Keith, words Mick.
JJF, chorus intro and maybe riff, Keith, words Mick and some Keith.
Gimme Shelter main outline, Keith, Mick words.
Midnight Rambler and Country Honk (same as Honky Tonk Women with a different arrangement), Keith and Mick.
Sympathy, Brown Sugar, Mick.
Ruby Tuesday, Keith and maybe a bit of Brian, especially on the arrangement.
Angie, mostly Keith, Mick some words.
etc etc
Later on they went their own ways a bit more I suppose.
Wyman, Jones, Watts, Hopkins, Stu etc etc can add ideas to the arrangement but were not seeming to come up with the initial ideas, and it's the initial ideas that are the most important because without them nothing can start.
[www.bassplayer.com]
"During your time with the band, beside not being formally credited with coming up with perhaps the best Stones riff ever, for “Jumping Jack Flash,” there must have been many other instances where you weren’t officially credited, as a co-songwriter.
There were lots, because all of the songs were created in the studio. You know, Keith would come in with a riff. That’s all, and over the course of a week we would come up with a song. Then Mick would write the lyrics, and it would come out on an album credited as “Jagger-Richards.” That would happen all the time.
I did get a bit disheartened that they weren’t generous enough to share, like many other bands do. Like the way the Beatles gave room for Ringo Starr and George Harrison to do their thing, and how the Who gave John Entwhistle a chance to write stuff. Where other bands shared things, the Stones didn’t. We just had to live with it or leave. So I went on and did solo albums and movie music, and I produced other artists. I got satisfaction in that way."
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-02-25 08:22 by howled.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
Single Malt
()
Date: February 25, 2013 08:46
Quote
howled
The JJF riff might have come from Wyman jamming on the piano but Wyman didn't put the JJF song together, that was Mick and Keith.
IMO without Bill's jamming Stones possibly wouldn't have recorded JJF so the true credit should've been Jagger/Richard/Wyman. Bill was the driving force this time and Mick and Keith took the idea forward. And if it's only about putting a song together then e.g. Moonlight Mile never should've credited to Keith, he only came up with a riff (as I recall reading this forum).
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: February 25, 2013 09:04
Quote
Single MaltQuote
howled
The JJF riff might have come from Wyman jamming on the piano but Wyman didn't put the JJF song together, that was Mick and Keith.
IMO without Bill's jamming Stones possibly wouldn't have recorded JJF so the true credit should've been Jagger/Richard/Wyman. Bill was the driving force this time and Mick and Keith took the idea forward. And if it's only about putting a song together then e.g. Moonlight Mile never should've credited to Keith, he only came up with a riff (as I recall reading this forum).
Listen to the piano noodling at the beginning of Flight 505, and listen carefully at 0:20 to 0:23, and tell me what riff you hear that later became the basis for one of their most celebrated songs.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
howled
()
Date: February 25, 2013 09:13
With the JJF riff, we only have Bill's account and even if Bill is right there is a big difference in recognizing what a riff can be used for and not recognizing what a riff might be used for as might be the case in Flight 505 (at 20 secs) Let's Spend The Night Together thing (It also sounds a bit like the Satisfaction riff played on Piano).
Maybe Keith just reused and altered the "Martha and The Vandellas" "Nowhere To Run" Horn riff for about 10 songs
Mick or Keith might have heard Stu or Brian or Bill or Nicky or whoever do something but that's not a song and Mick and Keith were making the songs or at least finishing them off.
The credits were also locked into the Jagger/Richards thing like the Lennon/McCartney thing and we all know that Lennon had nothing to do with Yesterday and that Mick had nothing to do with Ruby Tuesday.
The reason why is probably because most of the songwriting at the start was coming from Lennon and/or McCartney and Jagger and/or Richards and the credits were set up that way.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2013-02-25 09:39 by howled.
Maybe Keith just reused and altered the "Martha and The Vandellas" "Nowhere To Run" Horn riff for about 10 songs
Mick or Keith might have heard Stu or Brian or Bill or Nicky or whoever do something but that's not a song and Mick and Keith were making the songs or at least finishing them off.
The credits were also locked into the Jagger/Richards thing like the Lennon/McCartney thing and we all know that Lennon had nothing to do with Yesterday and that Mick had nothing to do with Ruby Tuesday.
The reason why is probably because most of the songwriting at the start was coming from Lennon and/or McCartney and Jagger and/or Richards and the credits were set up that way.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2013-02-25 09:39 by howled.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 25, 2013 09:41
Quote
stoneheartedQuote
Single MaltQuote
howled
The JJF riff might have come from Wyman jamming on the piano but Wyman didn't put the JJF song together, that was Mick and Keith.
IMO without Bill's jamming Stones possibly wouldn't have recorded JJF so the true credit should've been Jagger/Richard/Wyman. Bill was the driving force this time and Mick and Keith took the idea forward. And if it's only about putting a song together then e.g. Moonlight Mile never should've credited to Keith, he only came up with a riff (as I recall reading this forum).
Listen to the piano noodling at the beginning of Flight 505, and listen carefully at 0:20 to 0:23, and tell me what riff you hear that later became the basis for one of their most celebrated songs.
We hear Stu reference Satisfaction which is essentially just a rip off of the horns from Nowhere To Run.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: February 25, 2013 09:57
Quote
His MajestyQuote
stoneheartedQuote
Single MaltQuote
howled
The JJF riff might have come from Wyman jamming on the piano but Wyman didn't put the JJF song together, that was Mick and Keith.
IMO without Bill's jamming Stones possibly wouldn't have recorded JJF so the true credit should've been Jagger/Richard/Wyman. Bill was the driving force this time and Mick and Keith took the idea forward. And if it's only about putting a song together then e.g. Moonlight Mile never should've credited to Keith, he only came up with a riff (as I recall reading this forum).
Listen to the piano noodling at the beginning of Flight 505, and listen carefully at 0:20 to 0:23, and tell me what riff you hear that later became the basis for one of their most celebrated songs.
We hear Stu reference Satisfaction which is essentially just a rip off of the horns from Nowhere To Run.
And if you ask me, the riff for JJF is just a variation of the Satisfaction riff.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 25, 2013 12:46
Arranging is not writing, just like decorating is not drawing a building, or actually building it. Bill is not featured at all on JJF, on either bass or keyboards.
When Keith isn't featured on a tune, many of you jump to the conclusion that he had nothing to do with writing the song, whilst Bill surely wrote it - how come?
Many of the songs were written on the road, not in the studio.
When Keith isn't featured on a tune, many of you jump to the conclusion that he had nothing to do with writing the song, whilst Bill surely wrote it - how come?
Many of the songs were written on the road, not in the studio.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: February 25, 2013 19:31
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Bill is not featured at all on JJF, on either bass or keyboards.
(/quote]
Bill is credited with playing organ on the studio version of Jumping Jack Flash, according the booklet accompanying the 40 Licks CD set. Since no one else is credited with playing organ on the song we're left with Bill playing that funky little organ as the song fades out. Bill also claims he wrote the original riff on organ.
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 25, 2013 19:40
I forgot that. It's kinda strange he's not playing the riff, though. Wasn't that the first time he was credited? Might be a mistake. There were quite a few of them around that time, if memory serves...
Re: Now Bill Wyman is to reveal his side of the Stones story in autobiography
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 25, 2013 22:05
Quote
stonehearted
And if you ask me, the riff for JJF is just a variation of the Satisfaction riff.
Some rythmic similarities, but note wise it's totally different.
Satisfaction is closer to the horns on Nowhere to Run than Jumpin' Jack Flash is to Satisfaction.
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