skippy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I never wanted to play a Taylor lead. He just
> didn't fit the feel of the original Stones. You
> should have been alive back then so you could
> understand.

o.k, that's a different discussion then. If you're really old and you only want to play Simon & Garfunkel songs you indeed don't need to study scales. But if you want to play Taylor leads you sure do.

> Maybe if you practice your scales instead of going
> out to watch old amateur Dutchmen whacking their
> guitars, It could lead to a professional gig so
> you wouldn't have to send your days playing with
> gasoline.

Don't think so. In fact, I enjoy watching Old Amateur Dutchmen, it's good for a laugh and a drink.


> BTW do you know about the 61 Les Paul question I
> asked on the Satanic Majesity thread?

No, I'll go there now.

Mathijs

You're a hoot Mathijs. But really when you think of the old days before Taylor you think of Simon and Garfunkle.

I usually remember stuff like Satisfaction, Little by Little, It's All Over Now, She said Yeah, Around and Around, Cry to Me, Paint it Black, Let's Spend the Night Together, Connections, Have You Seen Your Mother, Jumpin'Jack Flash.

And just to be clear if you were implying I was one of those old amatures with no talent you mentioned I have to say right here and now that I never used a Marshall Amp. A Black face '65 Fender Showman with an MXR sustain for guitar and a Vox Westminister for bass.

Peace brother, I have to take my nap now. ;-)

discussion with mathijs.

-------------
Bollocks. If you want be a musician of any kind, you need to know at least the minimum of muscial theory,

" what is a musical theory? theory er most often a trial to define, classify,and document some things and events in the real world ,and nature. In our case it is music, sounds that we produce and listened to by our ears. I we trust our ears and feelings what sounds right, we dont need any definition the matter. "
----------
If you play a solo in Aminor, you need to know that F# is part of the major scale, and not the minor scale, so you must avoid the F#.

" what about "the other" minor scale a b(=h) c d e f# g# a,
and what about the chord A minor with a sixth. beautiful chord (the A minor chord with the, yes, extra note F#. (jazz chord)" so the F# note can go along with A major..
---------

regards
Dýri

Aaaahh. I love playing rythm. No need for all that pentatonic scale talk. It's five strings, three fingers and one @#$%&. And without knowing anything about scales I can even throw in a few licks here and there. I learned the basic Spanish grips and then I was set for some Stones. And I ain't bad I might add.

JumpingKentFlash

Could someone tab the HTW solo so we dummies could try it????????

THANKS!!!!!!!

I know it's in the tab book "Singles Collection - The London Years" Greg. Maybe it's in your local library???

JumpingKentFlash

animal Wrote:
> " what about "the other" minor scale a b(=h) c d e
> f# g# a,
> and what about the chord A minor with a sixth.
> beautiful chord (the A minor chord with the, yes,
> extra note F#. (jazz chord)" so the F# note can go
> along with A major..
> ---------

This underlines what I am saying: if you want to perform on a certain level you must know some theory. If you play HTW you can get away with all major scales, and the major scale takes one night practising. But, if you want to play lead on say Angie, you must know that a F# on Aminor, Eminor and G is absolutely wrong. But if you solo on say Aminor, Dminor, E, you can drop in F# (use it as a blue note). I am sure Keith has this basic knowledge.

Mathijs

it does not underline what you are saying Mathijs.

you said that F# could never be used in conn with A minor,
I said it can,

that is not underlining, that is opposite.!

Dýri

I will continue play the air guitar.

animal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it does not underline what you are saying Mathijs.
>
>
> you said that F# could never be used in conn with
> A minor,
> I said it can,
>
> that is not underlining, that is opposite.!
>
> Dýri


Of course you can use F# in Aminor, but you have to know WHEN. That was my point. You can use it as part of the melodic minor scale and as part of the chromatic scale, but you have to know when. But, as far as I know, there is not one Stones song on which you can play the melodic Aminor scale.

Mathijs

ok Mathijs, now I am checking you out :

you say i have to know when. and then I ask you : WHEN?
when is the melodic minor scale appropriate ?

regards
Dýri

It fully depends on the harmonic framework: If you have a framework of Am, Dm, G, C, a F# is not appropriate (and this scheme is most used by the Stones, I don't know of on song with Am/D). If you have a framework of say Am, Dmaj, Emaj a F# is fully appropriate. By the way, there's also a difference between descending and ascending scales. To have a dramatic effect, you could choose to descend chromatically from G to E on a Am chord (Taylor does this sometimes), but if you ascend chromatically it sounds terrible.

Check out Dead Flowers from JKentF. He said he wasn't interested in knowing scales. Half of the lead fills he plays have bum notes, and sound out of place. If he would invest 5 minutes in the Dpentatonic scale, his fills would have sounded much better.

Mathijs

Mathijs, your comments on our performance are really appreciated.
As I said earlier I only had my cheap Ibanez handy and it is constantly out of tune with the wrong strings on it... So the notes I played are technically no bum notes, I think it just sounds so strange because of the shitty guitar.

We are recording Brown Sugar at the moment, it will be available for download this evening, I hope. I recorded the guitar on the right channel, the solo and the licks on that song with my Fender and they sound much better and I don't think I play many bum notes. Well, if I do please tell me.

What do you think about our version of "Waiting On A Friend" by the way?
I use a C Ionian scale there and think it sounds nice.

Well, and I just wanted to tell you that JKentF and I are not the same person.

KR,

I like what you guys are doing!

I only heard Dead Flowers, and on that song it seems like your guitar is tuned, but not to the other guitar. therefore, is sounds out of tune.

Another tip (for Dead Flowers): Use the "country scale" for leads - with every run ending on D (or something that harmonizes). If you wanna use the blues scale (as you did on the version I heard), use it just to spice up a couple of times during the solo - that works better on a country tune.

I'm looking forward to hearing more of your stuff.

DP

Thanks DP!

Whatever happened on Dead Flowers, the licks sound wrong sometimes...
Thanks for the tip, I'll learn the "country scale".
If you heard only Dead Flowers, you can hear more songs on [www.rockpassion.com]

We also recorded Waiting On A Friend, that sounds very nice IMO and now Brown Sugar (should be available for download soon!)

Country scale = pentatonic scale. If you play the blues scale in D over an A chord, you will get bum notes. If you play Dpentatonic, you will avoid the bum notes over the A.

Mathijs

"If you have a framework of say Am, Dmaj, Emaj a F# is fully appropriate. ""

now that is a chord seq that is highly uninteresting is nt it.,

BUT it would really fit in a lengthy, funky solo over one chord, A minor, using the aminor sixth chord now and then, and using the tecnique of stretching the f# note to g inbetwen, that really grooves

animal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > "If you have a framework of say Am, Dmaj, Emaj a
> F# is fully appropriate. ""
>
> now that is a chord seq that is highly
> uninteresting is nt it.,
>
> BUT it would really fit in a lengthy, funky solo
> over one chord, A minor, using the aminor sixth
> chord now and then, and using the tecnique of
> stretching the f# note to g inbetwen, that really
> grooves
>


I don't get your point, actually.

Mathijs

I get it - animal is talking about bending the F# to G. The bending gives the effect.

( now that is a chord seq that is highly
> uninteresting is nt it., )

I am saying your exsample does not make sense. ?

i have noticed that keith actually does use the majorsixth note , like f# in an A context, from time to time, I must confess I find it, not out of tune, no but rather "phony,"

animal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ( now that is a chord seq that is highly
> > uninteresting is nt it., )
>
> I am saying your exsample does not make sense. ?
>
> i have noticed that keith actually does use the
> majorsixth note , like f# in an A context, from
> time to time, I must confess I find it, not out of
> tune, no but rather "phony,"
>
>
>

Can you give me an example, I really would like to know. These things always have me wondering though, and to me that is what make an good player an excelent player. I would never play a F# on Aminor, I would never fel comfortable with. In other words, I would never use the melodic scale. But people like Taylor always amaze me. Listen to live versions of You Can't Always Get, where he plays notes and scales I would never come up with myself. I can copy it, but not invent it.

Mathijs

Mathijs.

recall the classical chord sequence : Am D7 Am7 D7

like in "evil Ways" the santana song, remember that?

that is a fine excample of a song definitely in A minor but with a a formidable
F# "colour",...
Also the "ninth " ie the B, is great over that sequence..


ok a bit jazzy and funky, but far from out of tune ..!

( it is realated to this chord Am 6th ( a c e f#) a broad jazzy cord that can tolerate a lot of solonotes..)

regards
Dyri

Another example could be Bowie's r'n'r suicide. We used to play it in A (I don't know if the original is in that key, but that is how our singer wanted it) and a melodic minor fitted just like "cacio" cheese on "maccheroni" pasta, as we would call it!

C

dont know that song Liddas..

but as i thought of another excample of this chord sequence this morning i heard, yes, "Riders on (in) the storm" (by I dont recall) on the radio! unbelivable , ecsacty the same chords sequence and feeling...

Dýri

Mathijs wrote:

Keith ..... is not musically as "dumb" as he would appear.

As much as he likes to give the impression of not giving a damn, he certainly knows enough about music theory. I suspect a lot more than he lets on.

To be fair to skippy,

I think what he's getting at is talking theory, not knowing it.
Good musicians do know their scales, they do know which notes to play and which not to play.They understand lots of beautiful chord progressions...but they don't always know what any of them are called !

I agree with Mathijs about keith though. I suppose a lot of folks think he's musically prmitive because his own style of playing is earthy and sometimes primitive. Keith's understanding of what works and doesn't work musically is uncanny. His methods may differ from those of many other great musicians...but he's up there with all of them.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The first part of the solo is played in the key of
> Gmajor on the third fret (shifting to A and D),
> then the second part (the higher part) is played
> in the Gpentatonic (or Aminor) scale, and the solo
> is ended with a lick in the Gmajor key again.
> Ofcourse, tune to open G. It actually is one of
> the simplest solos to play, it hardly involves any
> technique. Again a perfect example of the genius
> of Keith!
>
> Mathijs


This is the most correct answer. Mathijs, you're obviously a real musician. Remeber when Keith played guitar?

New tour again! And he has already forgotten. And needs to ask US how to play the song...

Koen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The first part of the solo is played in the key
> of
> > Gmajor on the third fret (shifting to A and D),
> > then the second part (the higher part) is
> played
> > in the Gpentatonic (or Aminor) scale, and the
> solo
> > is ended with a lick in the Gmajor key again.
> > Ofcourse, tune to open G. It actually is one of
> > the simplest solos to play, it hardly involves
> any
> > technique.
>
> I took me forever though to realize that he moves
> to A during the A-chord.
>
> - Koen.


You'll often find a lead guitarist 'following' the chords like that, there's evidence of it in a lot of songs. Listen to Stray Cat Blues on Get Yer Ya Ya's out for example.....

Rolling Stones Tribute

Play Rolling Stones

the solo on get yer ya ya's out is played in the studio (not live) and have nothing to do with hazard and instinct and amateur feel. you can listen to the solo on gimme shelter movie or live 1969 recordings to point the differences.

it is constructed by someone (our keith) who knows exactly what he is going to do.

i say CONSTRUCTED.

and as sais mathijs, there is scales changes. and it's pure genius, in my opinion. because it sounds "live" and "fresh".

this false "live" solo became the basis for every HTW solo played later.